How was 9/11 different from the Riechstag burning In Germany?

Just in reading this… I think my head is going to explode.

removed by myself

@NowWhat it’s scary when we see ignorance of history, isn’t it?

Um, the Riechstag was burned by GERMANS?

true, but the official story at first was that is was the communists.

Do you have any links to illustrate these uncanny similarities?

I asked you to explore history, not the history that i would say is correct. any link that i give you would just be laughed off as a conspiracy based website. I encourage you to do your own research.

You should rather compare 9/11 to the Gleiwitz incident, where german operatives dressed as polish soldiers, raided a german radio station and then blamed it on poland, to have an excuse for invasion.

same type of incident. the reichstag was his rise to power, but the gleiwitz was the push for all out war

another side question here. Does anyone believe the official government story of 9–11 involving muslim hijackers, jet fuel melting steel, and bin laden from a cave orchestrated it all?

Here is something more related to the US: Operation Northwoods
This was a proposed false flag operation drawn up by the DoD, that would have involved apparent acts of terrorism in U.S. cities to create public support for a war against Castro-led Cuba. One plan was to “develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington”.

This operation is especially notable in that it included plans for hijackings and bombings followed by the use of phony evidence that would blame the terrorist acts on a foreign government, namely Cuba.

This plan outlines a proposed false flag operation to “justify” the invasion of Cuba.
It was rejected personally by Kennedy.
To all those that say “The american government would not attack its own citizens.”, here is your rebuke.
Several people in the government had no problem with sacrificing their own citizens as a pretext for war. With another president in office, the plan may have been executed.

I just read about that today, what a coincidence. History repeats itself. I think the reason it does is because these guys must pass down the template for war each generation. Herman Goering said it best during the Nuremberg Trials

“Naturally the common people don’t want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”

The Riechstag fire was caused by Nazi’s, then used as an excuse to seize power.
While Bush used 9/11 to seize greater power, he did not destroy the towers.

one could say he wouldn’t have known about it even if it was a false flag op.
after kennedy rejected the northwoods plan, they might have thought it would be better to circumvent the president next time

War is war and the only one who is right is the one who won. No kidding, the Americans took a lot of the credit for winning WWII though they not got involved until the bombing of Pearl Harbour and then it became personal. Funny thing is, the French Canadians has been volounteering for years and to this day, when you go to Europe. they love Canadians. Dad was a volunteer devils brigade (REMI). Yet, it was the German Jewish refusgees who won the war. as germans were very advanced in rocket technology and it is Albert Einstein who escaped the Nazi regime, who split the atom, hence being able to create the Atom bomb which ended the war. But did the war really end???? it is just being fought financally trying to bring ruin to north america. doing a good job if you ask me.

Read “The Rise Of The Fourth Reich” and you will see just how true you are

have you ever had to opportunity to read, or see the film slaughter house five. Kurt Vonegaught was tying to write his memoirs, but due to being skizophrenic, took a turn for aliens and predicting his own future. Mind you, he was there, and had he not been hidden underground in a bunker for POW’s he would never have surfaced to see how an innnocent town was bombed to nothing. War is truly hell, actually worse, as there are no innocent bystanders in helll

@filmfann

And who would have lead the investigation? The Bush administration?

@Darbio16 If you want to be taken seriously, you’ll have to do better than that. Comparing a Nazi provocation and crime against their own citizens in a power grab to an real terrorist attack by some completely misguided sociopath who thought he could bring down an entire country and using as your ‘proof’ the writings of a talented fictohistorian. So many holes, so little time,

1. The burning of the Reichstag was an attempt by Nazis to rile up the German people against foreigners, Jews and Communists at one fell swoop. The only reason this was accepted by most, not all, Germans is they were already xenophobic, right wing anti-Semites just waiting to be validated and the people were prevented from hearing evidence that would disprove the Nazi claims by Special orders, “Restrictions on personal liberty, on the right of free expression of opinion, including freedom of the press; on the rights of assembly and association; and violations of the privacy of postal, telegraphic and telephonic communications and warrants for house searches, orders for confiscations as well as restrictions on property, are also permissible beyond the legal limits otherwise prescribed.”

2. Only the most revisionist of conspiracy theorists would think that anyone in the Bush administration had anything to do with 9/11. In fact, I believe they were the most panicked people in America based upon the choices in the first 2 days. Their response over the next 3 years was to assign blame on a country that while not popular with Americans proven not to have been involved in 9/11. Since the Bush administration did not control the media they constantly kept them busy with unfounded scare stories but within months some members of the media were exposing the lies. The White House correctly estimated that many Americans would stapede instead of investigate but by 2006 most Americans realized the emperor had no clothes.

3. Jim Marrs, your authority who wrote the Fourth Reich, which was reviewed as “Easily the conspiracy book of the decade!! Revisionist history, international maniputalion on a gigantic level, Illuminati, ‘Foo fighters’, the greatest unsolved bank robbery in history, body doubles, and Solomon’s treasure: all of this will gladden the hearts of conspiracy theorists” is also responsible for the book Oliver Stone used as the basis for ‘JFK’

Mr Marrs oeuvre seems to make a salad of random unconnected facts, imagined conversations and never happened events, topped with a gee whiz dressing. Tasty and entertaining but totally lacking in academic, researched nutrititive value.

i’m sorry to have taken the only thing you have left honey, your ignorance. Since when was the last time congress passed a bill in 2 months like they did with the patriot act. it was prepared in advance. How can you say, “oh yeah, Hitler did the riechstag” but at the same time be in complete denial of the current situation. Of course there isn’t going to be an academic conversation about it as most college professors are bound by institutions that are arms of the establishment. Just because hitler died, didn’t mean that the nazi movement died. Fascism and anti-antisemitism were just as much apart of america at that time as a part of Germany. Henry Ford of ford motor company donated to hitler, and he even wrote an anitsemite book called ” The International Jew” Just because everything is all happy go lucky in your world doesn’t mean that there are not evil elements in this world that wish to wreak havoc. The Reichstag burns, commies are blamed and germans rally, then war. 9–11 happens, muslims are blamed, we go to war. similarity, I know so. Your in denial. Using big words and bullets for your points is pretty and everything, but in substance what your saying is ” OMG, bad people dont exist, not in America, we have puppies here!”. I didn’t mean to disturb your ignorance my lady. My question was dealing with the similarites between the 2 events. If you buy the corporate media and the 9/11 commission that’s your problem. That’s exactly how Hitler came to power, because of idiots like you that deny every problem in society.

A debate! I know for a fact that the U.S. Government did not orchestrate the attacks. I worked at a place where we actually interviewed the actual terrorists and read some of their stories. Everything was in Arabic, and translated to me on the spot. These people were picked up from some town in the Middle East, still in their pajamas and were busted red handed and admitted everything. There’s nothing to debate about. For once, maybe America isn’t a terrorist nation.

@galileogirl You’re diatribe is mostly correct. JFK was also largely based on Jim Garrison’s “On the Trail of the Assassins”.
@Darbio16 You don’t know what you’re talking about. You need to cite evidence, rather than just namecall and dis contributers.

Here’s a hint from a professional historian. Might does not make right. Good decisions are seldom made by panicked people. It’s best to think about your options before you chase that ball into a busy road.

Of course the Nazi movement has not disappeared but it has certainly been neutered. Neo Nazis are generally the disaffected, undereducated, hapless and hopeless. The people who rise to leadership in these groups are intellectual pedophiles, they would rather f**k immature minds than immaiure bodies. The mistake we make is that we take them as a sick joke and in that vein we allow them to arm themselves. We look at them as sad little ideologues and turn from their criminal activities. So they may be a danger to individuals who accidentally run across their path but not to this country.

Darbio are you really 16? A large vocabulary and occasionally correct grammar isn’t meant to be “pretty”. it evolves from education. Misquoting and telling others what they ‘really’ mean indicates the opposite.

BTW ‘My lady’ what a hoot. When you attempt sarcasm a feather is more effective than a flanged mace. (look it up) lol < ; P

I’m just here to let people know that there is more than meets the eye. If you can debunk these facts then please do here publicly.

http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20041221155307646

I understand where your coming from as a historian. You are here telling everyone that everything they need to know is in a text book. Your career as a “professional historian” depends on what you read at college being true. In the words of Upton Sinclair “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it”

I am saddened that a historian would fail in seeing the comparison between the two events. Even if George Bush didn’t know about the attack, 9/11 gave to Bush in terms of power, what had been granted to Hitler by the people of Germany. I don’t mean to fight here. I think America has seen, first hand, enough fighting.

The actions after 9/11 are what they are. Believing any side of this argument will not bring back liberties and freedoms lost as a result of 9/11. We were, and some still are, scared. Artificial or not, this fear has gripped this nation. It has brought us to our knees. If what I am saying is true, then a revolution is long overdue. Let’s suppose I’m wrong. We went to a two front war, total human death toll over a million, killed legitimate terrorists and now almost 8 years later should be on the road to victory.

What this nation is failing to realize is that the government doesn’t give powers or freedoms back. In fact, the government isn’t even in the business of granting powers or freedoms. Whether you believe in a God or creator, or you are a secular humanitarian, we can all agree that powers of the people are not property of any government. It is time then no matter who is right that we the people let the government know that we have our own homeland security under control.

“I would never invade the United States. There is a gun behind every blade of grass.”—Isoruko Yamamoto
During WWII the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED. There are strong similarities between the Gun Control Act of 1968 and the 1938 weapons law adopted by Nazi Germany.This is no coincidence; one of the principal authors of the Gun Control Act of 1968 was Sen. Thomas Dodd of Connecticut. After World War II, Dodd was assistant to the chief prosecutor at the Nuremberg war crime trials.Shortly before the Gun Control Act of 1968 was written, Dodd asked the Library of Congress to translate the 1938 German weapons law into English – and Dodd supplied the German text to be translated.

When I said that the Nazi movement hadn’t died, I wasn’t referring to neo-nazi’s and i agree with everything you said about them. I also would like to note that its not just the nazis we need to worry about. What about the people that funded them. Most supporters of the Nazi’s also supported the U.S. and were simply waiting to see who would win so they could pick a side.

As a historian, I’m sure you have heard about Prescott Bush. He channeled money from America into Germany for the Nazis. All of the foreign financial contributors to Hitler were prosecuted at Nuremberg, not Prescott bush and other American investors.

Look at JFK, his dad was totally complicate with the Nazi movement. He was hand picked by the people that actually run this country. The same people that run this country are the people that funded Hitler and Stalin alike. JFK was not going along with the crazy NWO shit and was he didn’t care for the Federal Reserve much either. June 1963 he passed executive order 11110, we start minting silver coins to be distributed. Five months later he was killed. There have only been a few assassinations of presidents. Think of Lincoln, distressed over funding for the Civil War, he ordered that the U.S. Treasury begin printing fiat paper money called “Green Backs”. This Pissed the international bankers off like you wouldn’t believe because they were enjoying a monopoly on the issuance of our currency. James Wilkes Booth, assassin of Lincoln, later told Canadian newspapers that the Rothschild s banking family ordered the assassination of Lincoln.

Even now in congress there is a bill, H.R. 1207. Its called the “Audit the Fed’ bill. Fed meaning the Federal Reserve. That’s just great, now after over 80 years of the Federal Reserve destroying this country, Congress now has the idea to finally begin to ask for an audit. I have a better idea, how about abolish the federal reserve. Our constitution allows for our congress to issue money.

In the United States, the issuing of money is controlled by the Federal Reserve Board. This is not a government department but a board of private bankers. Most of us would believe that the Federal Reserve is a federal arm of the national government. ... This is not true! ... In 1913 President Woodrow Wilson signed the document that created the Federal Reserve, and committed the American people to debt slavery until such time as they awake from their slumber and overthrow this vicious tyranny.”...
Suppose the government borrows $10 million. It only costs the bankers a few hundred dollars to actually produce the funds, and a little more to do the book-keeping. Do you think it is fair that our citizens should struggle to keep their homes and families together, while the bankers grow fat on these profits?
Credit created by a Government-owned bank is better than credit created by private banks, because there is no need to recover the money from people by way of taxes, and there is no interest attached to inflate the cost. The public work completed with the credit by the Government bank is the asset that replaces the money created when the work is finished.
None of our problems will disappear until we correct the creation, supply and circulation of money. Once the money problem is solved, everything else will fall into place.

That’s why its war after war, and ridiculous spending program after program. Because these bastards will gladly turn the printing presses on in order to reap the profits from the interest we pay on it.

I feel bad for you, as a historian I will not doubt that you have attained a great deal of knowledge. but in the word of Thomas Jefferson

“He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.”

Then From Einstein we see that “Imagination is more important than knowledge”
you can’t even imagine this being a reality, let alone join in a solution. Hope you stocked up on food and water because it would be best for you to just stay inside for a while when it all goes down.

I’ve been told enough that I’m not correct or that I am crazy, but it doesn’t even matter. I can see the big picture of “why” rather than of “how”. one more qoute before I go, this one from Mark Twain.

“In times of change, the Patriot is a scarce man; brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a Patriot.” .

As usual @Darbio16 you are a prisoner of your misguided mind set. As a teacher I often point out what is wrong with textbooks, not that they contain errors in dates and names but that most of them are sanitized and view events from a culturally limited view point.

Thanks for the lesson in the Federal reserve but my minor in Economics, 20 years in commercial finance and 19 years as an Econ teagher, I understood the system while your Daddy was in diapers. KA-POW Another ill-conceived assumption shot down

So you are the guy who is proud of knowing nothing, you are the guy who lives in his own reality and you are the omniscient Patriot? I’m hoping that is callow youth rather than delusions of grandeur.

Did you work in a bank, or just practice bank theory? There is a vast difference. Fractional reserve banking is the game here, and it should be illegal. It is not fair to people that the bank can loan money that doesn’t exist, then foreclose on real property. It is a means to control and own everything, and all you can do is help young people understand a bunch of economic mumbo jumbo that amounts to the rat race. If just 10% of Americans withdrew all the money from their bank accounts the system would fail because that money doens’t exist. In my own reality you say, as if it were a bad thing. Whose reality do you live? Mary Jane Conformist? Enlighten us then, where does the american dollar come from? You mean to say that the Federal Reserve is not as I described? Why is it that ,while my daddy was in diapers and you were being brain washed by the banking industry, a candy bar was a quarter where as now it is over a dollar. I’m sure the excuse you were fed and the excuse you pass around to your students is that it’s all apart of the business cycle, and it’s just increase in the cost of living, or an interest rate is too high/low. Its bull. 16 years after the Federal Reserve was created, we went through the great depression. What would you expect to happen when the issuer of currency stops issuing currency and calls in all the loans? You are seriously standing in the way of real economic progress. Instead of being a debt based enslaved society, we could truly embrace the pricipals of our fouders and bring back sound economic reform.

Take a look at this link to clarifiy a few aspects of my beliefs, and also, i still have’nt heard anyone debunk anything about 9/11.

http://oldphartbsa.newsvine.com/_news/2008/12/31/2260684-2nd-american-revolution-movement-society-2arms

@Darbio16 – what’s really really funny and ironic here is that you’re debating this with people who actually had anywhere from a deep dislike to a seething hatred of W and his entire administration, and yet none of them is willing to go down this path with you.

I personally usually have a lot to say on topics like this, but I’m going to be brief (well, brief for me) for once and say the problem is that the Bush Administration operated so secretively that it’s easy to think they were up to something. The way I see it, and I’ve heard the Riechstag argument before in fact while Bush was sitting President, is as numerous people pointed out, Riechstag was actually staged by the people who needed an excuse to demonize the enemy in order to pre-emptively invade, and by most accounts the 9/11 attacks were not actively orchestrated by our government.

If you’re looking for a Bush hater, look no further than me, but I’ve read the 9/11 conspiracy theories, I’ve read the actual accounts, I’ve spoken with numerous sources and read a thousand opinions, and the conclusion I drew was that at WORST, Bush and Co knew it was coming and let it happen (consider the August 6 “Bin Laden Determnined to Attack Inside US” memo, combined with the amount of time it took to give the order to shoot down planes…hint…after it was too late, and the seemingly nonchalant way Bush sort of sat there listening to a children’s story in a Florida classroom).

Basically, anyone who is familiar with the PNAC knows that we were going to in SOME way find a justification for attacking Iraq under Bush’s watch, there was never any question in my mind the day Gore finally gave up that this meant eventual war in Iraq. Indeed, the Onion did a brilliant piece which was published 3 days before his innauguration.

I personally however to be honest don’t think Bush would have wanted it to go down exactly how it happened…he was too interested in the financial fortunes of his rich buddies…he would NEVER want to bring down Wall Street the way knocking the towers down did. Nor do I honestly think they would have been able to pull something like this off without someone after 8 years coming forth to provide credible evidence thereof. Nor do I believe they would have to go to those lengths.

Bottom line is, we had an enemy, an enemy we made by ripping their country to shreds to push back the Russians in the 1980s but couldn’t be bothered to help put back together. All these young men returned to find what little they had destroyed, thousands of crippled children and worse poverty than ever in the aftermath of the US investing 500 million dollars when it came to fighting the Russians, but being unwilling to give an additional million to rebuild schools.

From what I’ve read, the Clinton administration turned over a dossier on Bin Laden chock full of evidence that he was training a force to come after us and attack us on our own soil, but everything the Clinton administration turned over to Bush, reportedly Bush shitcanned. Bush was a cowboy, always wanting to go his own way, make his own decisions, in fact it was reported that his first action was to vandalize the inside of the
White House, take pictures and blame it on the outgoing Clinton administration, just to discredit them as a bunch of immature assholes.

So morally, I don’t give Bush so much credit as to say he WOULDN’T have orchestrated 9/11 or a 9/11 like event, indeed, I“m willing to bet he would have orchestrated something, but he didn’t NEED to, and he KNEW he didn’t need to. All he had to do was go on his little 5 week vacation, completely let our guard down and wait for whatever they had planned to come to fruition. After all, he knew it wouldn’t be a nuke, we’re talking about Afghanistan, one of the dirt poorest nations on earth where Bin Laden was holing up. Why would he risk trying to orchestrate the murder of Americans when he knew all he had to do was wait for it…it doesn’t fit.

Basically, if I were to make one comparison between the Bush Administration and the Reichstag fire, I would say that would have to be the falsified Iraqi purchase order for Nigerian Yellowcake Uranium…they knew that was false and they used it anyway…that at least was an effort to sway people to an invasion that was orhcestrated out of whole cloth. 9/11 was just vile opportunism if you ask me. But conspiracy theorists will persist…there are plenty of people who still think Elvis (and Michael Jackson for that matter) are alive. When I have more time, I’ll re-read some of this stuff, but I can tell you, it was less convincing to me that the “let it happen” idea which I think is likely.

But bottom line for me, whether Bush actually orchestrated it, let it happen or simply used it opportunistically, he led us into an illegal war with no justification by lying to the American people…I’m 100% certain of that, and as far as I’m concerned, that is treason, and we hang traitors…I don’t really care what the ultimate outcome is, it doesn’t change anything regardless of whether it was like Reichstag or not, bottom line is, most people agree with you that Bush is evil, it’s just that most of us are more willing to believe in all of the evil things he so obvioulsly did that we don’t need to resort to believing in conspiracy theories to make him look even more evil.

Just my opinion, take it for what it’s worth.

I’ve talked to a lot of people about this and it’s all the same. Everyone believes that the government at least knew, about it. Everyone agrees that their were lies. Well, I’m here to say that it is damn dishonorable us to not bring justice to those lost on 9/11. You all think that a million Iraqi’s that are now dead did 9/11? I thought it was Bin Laden? Nazism didn’t die with the Hitler. We won the American Revolution but they brought there debtors prisons here instead.

Think of this. The fed prints the money and they loan it to us at interest. Boom, 30% off the bat. Then you spend your money, pick your poison, rest assured there is a tax on it. Consumer spending results in a profit to whomever provided the product or service. It’s not a secret that many of the places we shop are national if not international corporations. Many of the investors of the Federal Reserve are owners of these very corporations. If you pay with a credit card you are really making them happy. The people that own the Fed and the stores we shop at, also own the credit card companies. Is it any wonder why this country is bankrupt, except that there is and endless supply of paper money backed by nothing. The president and congress are merely puppets for us all to get angry at while the people that really run the show stay behind the scenes. I’m done trying to get a job or a career, i’m just gonna start a bank. Because you can take whatever money you have on hand, and loan out 10x that amount and begin collecting interest on it. I really don’t give a shit about you all personally, but in order for me to be we all need to be free. Only 5% of the population fought in the revolutionary war. I don’t need everyone to understand this, but 5% of you would do.

The reason your ideas can’t gain legitimate ground, @Darbio16, is because they can’t be backed up by fact. They reek of your own personal psychological issues, of anger in your personal history, and your susceptibility to outside influence, especially when it comes to a search for meaning where there is none. I can relate to this last tendency, but I urge you to try and resist.

“Do not attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence.”
—Napoleon Bonaparte

You guys are right, everything I will ever need to know will be on the news. There is nothing wrong with this country. War is good for the soul. Inflation is the sign of a healthy economy. 4,000 child die every hour of starvation, but as long as the Pentagon can misplace a few trillion dollars, it’s all good. There was no thermite in the 9/11 dust, that must have been some crazy conspirator that placed it there. The man not even qualified to fly a Cessna actually did pull an insane aeronautical maneuver in order to strike the Pentagon. The 9/11 commission is right. Whoever funded the terrorist attack of 9/11, it is irrelevant. Knowing who paid for it won’t solve anything. The Pentagon recieved a 20 foot wide hole as a result of an airplane crash. The plane has a wingspan of over 100 feet, but the hole was only 20 feet. Must be science or something. No jet engines recovered either. Science must have an answer for a few 5 ton jet engines to disintegrate. WTC building 7 was brought down by fire. That crafty bin laden, what a genius. Man, I wish I had the skill To send 2 planes to a city and have 3 buildings fall. Kudos to the best terrorist ever. Not to mention his infinite knowledge in radar jamming capabilities. No planes were intercepted in air because all the fighter jets radars were showing false planes. Imagine being able to break the U.S. airspace unfettered for over an hour.

Oh well, they got them there experts for this one i guess. How dare thousands of structural engineers, architects, scientists and firefighters write books and start websites devoted to slandering our government. Like these people know anything about the destruction/construction of buildings.

Those who say 9/11 was a sham, well shame on you. Proof is here that it was the terrorists. Recovered from the 9/11 rubble was a passport belonging to one of the arabs that hijacked one of the planes. Booya, a passport! God wanted us to find it, that’s why it escaped the massive explosion of jet fuel that could melt steel beams. What a wondrous event. I bet the Rockefellers are really upset too, they donated the ground that the wtc stood on, that family is always getting set back some how.

Thank heavens for the speedy media we have, only 20 minutes after the attack we knew exactly who did it and why. Just after the towers fell, cnn interviewed a guy that stated something like, “yeah the towers fell, obviously due to structural failure”. Wow, just moments after both towers had fallen a man on the street wearing biker clothes is able to pinpoint from afar exactly what caused the towers to fall. Meanwhile, those silly fire fighters and structural engineers were baffled. What can i say, we have ourselves a very smart electorate.

Those million + dead iraqi’s will think twice before they jump on a plane and crash into our buildings. We got Obama, now there will be a peace throughout the world. We are gonna get healthcare, so I better not mess it up for us by making us all seem ungrateful for all our government has done for us. I will have to break it to my grandchildren gently that my generation spent all the money and now we had to take all of theirs. Kids are pretty resilient though, they should bounce right back.

I hope the families of the 9/11 victims feel that they have been brought justice. With Obama declaring an end to the war on terror, it would seem that they have. No bin laden tho, what a crafty devil. The CIA must have lost their rolodex or something.

“None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free.”
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

911 conspiracy theories would be hilarious if they werent so offensive in the extreme.

how are they offensive?

How devastating, how destructive, how deadly does a tragedy have to be to keep people from using it to demonstrate their stupidity?

This New Yorker believes that every 911 conspiracy theory is a slap in the face to every loved one of a 911 victim.

So if someone questions the government issued explanation, it is stupidity?
You seem to be thinking that conspiracy theorists are making fun of the tragedy?
They are not. They are just as devasted by it as everyone else. The difference is that they distrust the government so much that they believe it could have been responsible for the attack. And that is not a far fetched possibility either.
Link
this is a false flag operation that was planned by the DoD and almost executed, and would have involved staged terrorist attacks on american assets, to gain a pretext to invade cuba.
You think it is a slap in the face of victims’ relatives to not be satisfied with the official explanation? You think it is offensive to that some people think they are being lied to? You think it is offensive to want to hear the true story?
What is offensive here is you being offended.
You of all people should appreciate their distrust in the government and should welcome their doubts about the official bush story.

Here are a bunch of quotes mostly from my hero, Thomas Jefferson. Read them and you will see what the founders were faced with. Couple that with current events/institutions and you can easily see why my distrust for the government is totally founded.

“Naturally the common people don’t want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”
Herman Goering – Nuremberg Trials

“Education is dangerous – Every educated person is a future enemy”
Herman Goering

“Educate and inform the whole mass of the people… They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty.”
Thomas Jefferson

“A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned – this is the sum of good government.”
Thomas Jefferson

“Advertisements contain the only truths to be relied on in a newspaper.”
Thomas Jefferson

“All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.”
Thomas Jefferson

“Do you want to know who you are? Don’t ask. Act! Action will delineate and define you.”
Thomas Jefferson

“Don’t talk about what you have done or what you are going to do.”
Thomas Jefferson

“Every generation needs a new revolution.”
Thomas Jefferson

“Experience hath shown that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.”
Thomas Jefferson

“Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.”
Thomas Jefferson

“For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security.”
Thomas Jefferson

“I do not take a single newspaper, nor read one a month, and I feel myself infinitely the happier for it.”
Thomas Jefferson

“I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.”
Thomas Jefferson

“I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend.”
Thomas Jefferson

“I own that I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.”
Thomas Jefferson

“I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.”
Thomas Jefferson

“I was bold in the pursuit of knowledge, never fearing to follow truth and reason to whatever results they led, and bearding every authority which stood in their way.”
Thomas Jefferson

“If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.”
Thomas Jefferson

“If there is one principle more deeply rooted in the mind of every American, it is that we should have nothing to do with conquest.”
Thomas Jefferson

“Information is the currency of democracy.”
Thomas Jefferson

“One man with courage is a majority.”
Thomas Jefferson

“Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation of power first, and then corruption, it’s necessary consequence.”
Thomas Jefferson

“The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive.”
Thomas Jefferson

“The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.”
Thomas Jefferson

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
Thomas Jefferson

@Darbio16 I disagree with you on almost everything you said, except you have a lot of good quotes there.

@Darbio16 It’s nice to have a copy of Bartlett’s or a link to a quote site. But being able to quote Jefferson is not understanding him or his times. Why don’t you start with:

http://www.amazon.com/Adams-Jefferson-Letters-Complete-Correspondence-Jefferson/dp/0807842303/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1250969087&sr=1-7

http://www.amazon.com/Selected-Writings-Jefferson-Library-Classics/dp/0375752188/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1250969087&sr=1-5

http://www.amazon.com/American-Sphinx-Character-Thomas-Jefferson/dp/0679764410/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_c

http://www.amazon.com/Ken-Burns-Jefferson-Elizabeth-Unforgivable/dp/B000ANVQ50/ref=pd_cp_d_3

None of these is a Jefferson primer except maybe the Burns DVD. But I am sure you have several basic bios. The American Sphinx was especially enlightening and it is useful to read his writings in context, instead of random quotes without context.

Next your gonna tell me that the American revolution was over the price of tea right?

@Darbio16, if you take a look at my past posts, you will likely see a response to every one of your issues with the 9/11 “official explanation.” I hope you will give these reasonable and likely truthful analyses more thought and consideration than other Fluther posters did in the past.

@quarkquarkquark His MO is to switch topic every time his lack of knowledge becomes apparent. I’m following his path Burning of the Reichstag>the Federal Reserve>Thomas Jefferson>the American Revolution, Where next?

@Darbio16 I guess you think you are being facetious, but not even close. There is no one reason for the Revolution but most historians trace it’s roots back to the Age of Enlightment, when the the idea of men having natural rights that challenged the idea of the divine right of kings (I have a cool lesson plan that charts this route)

This clash of ideas changed the power structure so that England and France were left in competition to be the world superpower-think 20th C US v USSR. After fighting sporadically for centuries they took to a client war in N. America In 1755. This proved to be ruinously expensive for both sides.

England’s point of view after they won was that the Americans should pay for the military that protected them, after all equivilent taxes were already being imposed in England. This was kind of the last straw for many Americans. Britain had controlled the colonial economy from the beginning including limiting money supply, making manufacturing difficuit and imposing import and export taxes,

With the new taxes and ideas about the rights of the common man, no taxation without representation became a rallying cry. The British responded very heavy handedly, refusing representation, and taking back what little autonomy that had been granted to the colonies. Meanwhile in the 18th century there had been a significant demographic shift in N. America. About 40% of the colonists were German speakers who fled war in Europe. (This included a 17 member family of my ancestors who departed Bingen on Rhine for Bucks Co PA in 1720) These immigrants along with waves of Scots and Irish had little loyalty to the crown, Things got tenser, incidents happened including the ‘tea party’ until the British decided to go after arms gathered by the Patriots and it was on.

Of course the King of France suffered a worse fate for not effectively dealing with his war debt

Thanks for following my path, but you haven’t drawn any conclusions from what I’m saying here. Riechstag v. 9/11 – both were acts of terrorism, regardless of the source, that enable vicious and unwarranted war to ensue. Next is the Fed, great financier of all things especially ever so profitable wars. Then we have Thomas Jefferson. I use him as a point of strength that people can lean on when they feel afraid to do something, or when they feel that all hope is lost. I don’t need to now the inner workings of his life to understand the great peril that the framers of our constitution faced in standing up to totalitarianism. Then I speak of the American Revolution, because its the only thing that makes us American, and not a colony of England. That’s what people do in times of crisis, they look within to find strength. We remember in this country who we are, who has fought to make us free; we often forget that each generation passes the torch of vigilance down, we just apparently dropped it. Uncle Sam swooped in to say he had picked it up.

Your family may have left Germany to escape war, but where the hell are we gonna go if war breaks out here? The founders I’m sure know that we were gonna screw this up. Ben Franklin had been asked by a woman something like “what have you given us”. He replied. “A republic ma’am, if you can keep it”. We can’t have our cake and eat it too here. Freedom comes at a price. Unfortunately everyone thinks that the military is the only way to fulfill true democratic civic participation. I will never disrespect a member of the armed services, yet I believe that America should have nothing to do with conquest or imperialism. Instead of a global military and a countless series of preemptive attacks in the name of freedom, why not the old fashioned local militia. It could play out as simple as the gathering of many local volunteer firefighters. Citizens getting together putting the fear of an entire independent society into the boots of every tin cup dictator that is floating around this planet.

What, if anything, do you teach your students about the Patriot Act its devastating effect on the bill of rights? Is the patriot movement a big joke in academia? I believe that just as there are people who instinctively distrust the government, there are a proportionate amount of people that distrust the idea of a conspiracy. Both are likely unfounded in logic, yet both draw from an individuals beliefs. Most who do not believe in conspiracy either feel they have an adequate understanding of everything around them, or that the unknowns in life require little attention. Conspiracy believers look at life’s unknowns and begin to search for answers, wherever the answers may lead. To rule out a conspiracy only on the premise that it is a conspiracy is just as destructive as any other fruition of closed mindedness.

Johnson said “Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.” That came in a refuge-deluge under Bush.
When one discusses the Riechstag fire, it is impossible to seperate the result with the cause.
9–11 simply doesn’t fit.
@dalepetrie was right. It’s funny that I hate Bush so much, yet I cannot go down this path with you. I am a true believer when it comes to JFK assassination theories, but Lincoln’s death ordered by the Rothschild s banking family is laughable.
Don’t confuse questioning what we are told with being right. We are often lied to, no doubt, but it’s crazy talk to say things like 9/11 was caused by our government, and blamed on Arabs.

Listen @Darbio16 If you want me to teach you for free, then you will have to put in the desk time. Be thankful I took pity on you and didn’t school you on your nonsense on the Federal Reserve question. We were sold out in 1913 OH MY. Offer up some background and context, Chicken Little, The sky may not be falling, it may just be falling leaves.

@filmfann His distrust of what he is told probably comes from the lies his parents told him about the tooth fairy. Oops, I hope I didn’t spill the beans

You seriosly, with your suppossed financial experience, have no clue how the Fed works. Answer me one simple two part question. Do you know what fractional reserve lending is, and are you aware that is the system that we use?

The Fed works like the Soprano’s, then?

“I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world – no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men.”
-President Woodrow

He wrote this before he died with much remorse. He is the one that signed the Federal Reserve Act.

President Wilson Woodrow?

you got it backwards, Woodrow Wilson is the name

Then you should have used that in your quote. “President Woodrow” makes it obvious how sloppy your methods are.

“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
Henry Ford

Im sloppy, and you didn’t even know his name, c’mon man

LOL I was pointing out your mistake!

of course, i make a little error in presentation and that makes the whole message obsolete.

Like comparing the Riechstag fire with 9/11.

@Darbio16

OMG-back to basics, forget my degrees, that’s HS Econ

1. Yes
2. Only dumb dropout wanna be bank robbers think banks keep significant liquid assets

First Thomas Jefferson then the racist Fascist Henry Ford’You must be getting dizzy,

Here’s a quote for you “Stop teasing me” Darbio16

dumb bank robbers and the general american public not brainwashed by banks into believing that fractional reserve isn’t anything but a bad thing

The racist fascist ford motor that we just bailed out?

Its obvious who’s side the Fed is on, the corporations. Wake up and smell the fascism

Um, you know Henry Ford isn’t running the company anymore, right?
And I think Ford Motors was the only one of the big automakers that turned down bailout money.

He has family in the company

The fact is, most Americans do not know the nature of the Fed. Nor do most of them care. what matters to most people is just privacy, religion and family. Few people actually inquire about the true nature of our system.

Saying that its HS Econ doesn’t make it right or ethical. Its the new slavery, they don’t need to use shackles anymore to hopelessly enslave you

In light of his other historical boners, probably not. LMAO!

Darb Baby, few-really? Since I have taught the basics of the Federal reserve to 70 students a year for 18 years (so far) and it is taught to another 400 students by my colleagues and there are 7 Hs’s in my city and tens of thousands across the country and 100’s of thousands of the Fed’s employees. professional economists and bankers-that seems a mite more than a few. Here’s a tip. if you want to be taken seriously cut the hyperbole (slavery & shackles indeed)

@Darbio16, you really need to read the Patriot Act. And find out when it was in effect.

Don’t become a victim of conspiracy theories. Comparing the Bush government to Nazism is offensive, because it insults the victims of Nazism. 9/11 was created by islamist extremism which can be viewed as a form of fascism.

Most of the world is engulfed in fascism even America

Remember @Darbio16 thoughtful and logical not kneejerk inflamatory

@Darbio16 – Suppose America is a truly fascist state. What will happen to you as you are typing away enjoying Fluther right this very moment? I will tell you. In a couple of hours people will knock on your door. They won’t show you any search warrants. They will grab you and throw you into prison. No one will read your rights. Depending on your profile and the perception as a threat to the fascist state they will interrogate you for hours or days. The trial is a farce. The sentence is death. The guillotine. Very effective.

This is what happened to Sophie Scholl. She was arrested for distributing leaflets (Fluther wasn’t up and running at the time) at the University of Munich on February 18, 1943. On February 22, Sophie Scholl, her brother Hans and their friend Christoph Probst were found guilty of treason and condemned to death. They were all beheaded by executioner Johann Reichhart in Munich’s Stadelheim Prison only a few hours later, at 5 pm (see Wikipedia).

Are you still convinced America is a fascist state?

Fascist socialist, not fascist totalitarian. Not just yet anyway.

They only need to kill of the ones that really have to power to spread a message far. Little shits like us on fluther, while annoying to them I’m sure, do not amount to much when compared to fascist corporate media, ivy league institutions and a myriad of think tanks.

Hey mattbrowne, wasn’t islamic extremism funded by our CIA in the 80’s. The prospect of a shadow government is scary, but not impossible to believe. Most people here are merely content in the knowledge they already hold and there simply isn’t room for anything else.

Be wise in the choice of your words. Fascism whatever its flavor is a serious and ugly and despicable business. In spite of all the flaws of countries like the United States or Germany or France we should be grateful to have the privilege of living in one of them in the year 2009.

Rationality Lurve @mattbrowne, GA

I am grateful, but to the right people. The founders of this nation among many others. I know how Galileogirl just loves me using quotes but here we go.

“Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.” Mark Twain

I appreciate life as a human, no nationality attached there. I said look at the similarities between the two events. not that they match up historically 100%, just similar.

What is most offensive to victims of fascism is society’s reluctance in seeing it.

@Darbio16 American funding of Islamic extremists wasn’t fascism, that was short-sighted expedience, a very common flaw in the American psyche. Actually “most” people thought of them as freedom fighters fighting for their country that had been invaded by Communist expansionists. The not-so-most of us realized the situation was untenable for everybody, that if we did or did not help the Afghan nationalists that the only good thing that could have come from it was the lesson that war makes things worse. Nobody learned, of course so:

The Afghan people are under the control of terrorists and gangsters, suffering through another war under a more repressive government than the Soviets ever would have been.

The Soviets have fallen apart, with ineffectual government(s) that are too bankrupt to counteract the gangsters that really control the country with a faux capitalism.

The Americans ended up watering a poison plant that is not about culture, religion, politics or spreading democracy. And now we are on the edge of bankruptcy that could destroy the rest of the world.

It’s not about fascism or communism or socialism or democracy, those are just buzzwords. Today’s freedom fighter is tomorrow’s repressive dictator.

Your overdramatic little bombshells reduce your credibility and make people think there is no substance behind your hit and run technique. That’s why the people on this thread can easily counter your points. Then you try to respond by changing the subject. So transparent and sadly anti-intellectual. You are making yourself a joke.

@Darbio16, you’re using fascism as an invective. The ideology, if it can be called that, has rightly earned its status as a pejorative. However, the bar is actually set pretty high for what can actually be called fascism, and if you truly believe America is fascist—instead of simply believing it does wrong or is in some way corrupted—you need to provide specific examples of fascism in action in this country.

oh, lord. thanks, @filmfann.

@quarkquarkquark might want to spellcheck that last part. I don’t think we have dropped to that level yet.

@galileogirl – Great answer!

Both events were capitalized on by leaders to scare their citizens into giving up rights, but I don’t really think Bush planned out 9/11.

the buildings were bigger on 9/11

We really, really need a button for “Idiotic Question”, don’t we?

@galileogirl, I love you.

NAZI party translats to neo-conservative something party!
Just posted this on another question.

Naomi Wolf – The End Of America.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naomi_Wolf

Although, in my opinion this affects the whole of the western world.
False flags would seem to be quite common 7/7.

I would have to agree with all these ‘PATRIOTS’, I don’t think any government is behind any false flag op. But then again how could they, since they don’t run the country.

An I ain’t got a college education.

@galileogirl
I agree, the American funding of Islamic extremists wasn’t fascism, it was corpratism, (in my humble uneducated opinion) everything that isn’t run by religion in this world is done with capital gain in mind. So you keep telling youself that everything is just peachy and watch the real owners on your country drive the NAFTA highway right up your sphinter.

Maybe the conspiracy theorists real patriots will one day win over the paper PATRIOTS and take back control of their sovreign lands.

Sweet dreams PATRIOT.

@galileogirl

Fascinating debate! You do an excellet job of refuting the mindlessness of the 9/11 conspiracy theorists.

”I don’t think any government is behind any false flag op”
How can you be so naive?

A false flag op is what the Nazis did to justify the invasion of Poland. They dressed some of their own soldiers up as Polishh soldiers and had them attack a German radio station. This became known as the Gleiwitz incident.

In November 1939, the Soviet Union shelled one of their own villages, and then invaded Finland, blaming the Fins for the attack. The Russians have admitted that it was them who started the attack.

Operation Northwoods
”Operation Northwoods, or Northwoods, was a false-flag plan that originated within the United States government in 1962. The plan called for Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) or other operatives to commit genuine acts of terrorism in U.S. cities and elsewhere. These acts of terrorism were to be blamed on Cuba in order to create public support for a war against that nation, which had recently become communist under Fidel Castro. One part of the Operation Northwoods plan was to “develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington.”

Operation Northwoods included proposals for hijackings and bombings followed by the introduction of phony evidence that would implicate the Cuban government. The plan stated:

”The desired resultant from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere.”
The secret document detailing these plans were released in 1997.

Operation Susannah was an Israeli covert operation involving the bombing of US and UK owned targets in Egypt aimed at harming relations between Egypt and the West. Israel admitted to this in 2005.

Different fires were involved.

@galileogirl A vergilian remark. Although i would’ve sent him that final bit of that message privately.

I’m not responsible for 9/11.