Social Question

flo's avatar

Why do the organizers allow the practicers indecent exposure in some of the gay pride parades?

Asked by flo (7369 points ) June 30th, 2011

Why would they want to seem to want to sabotage (as some have have suggested) the status of the gay/lesbian rights movement?

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41 Answers

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

First of all the organizers do not have a say in what the various groups do or do not other than the usual ‘don’t kick the religious nuts or cops in the balls’ instructions. Secondly, rebelling against mainstream society’s concept of ‘indecency’ is historically one of the reasons to hold a gay pride parade, to begin with. Finally, as many others suggest I will posit that to imply sabotage of the entire movement due to some prudes seeing guys in thongs is pretty ridiculous. It is not our intention to ensure that society accepts us based on their standards of decency. If it comes off that way, it’s only because many queer people are okay with assimilation. This queer is not.

flo's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir what does indecent exposure have to do with sexual orientations and human rights and equality? Isn’t the struggle about the right not suffer violence, not to be excluded from rights and privilages that hetrosexuals enjoy, and on and on, ... I am so surprised at you.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

And before anyone, again, reminds me not to call religious people nuts because of their homophobia, I took a pic of this guy at Pride 2008 just to add to my personal and very wide ranging collection of “homophobes are outside again”.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@flo What does it have to do with sabotaging a movement? And is the struggle not worth it regardless of what some of the members of its movement wear? Are we not, as feminists, bound to fight for all rape victims regardless of what they wear? Why are you surprised?

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

Gotta run put Ark to sleep again, might be gone a bit. Hold all those thoughts :) I’ll def be in and out now.

tranquilsea's avatar

I think it is really natural that there is a push back at “society” for how awfully they have been treated in the not-too-distant past. That push back is often extreme but what was once done to them was more extreme.

I, for one, enjoy those parades. They are interesting to watch.

flo's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir you are going to the bottom of the barrel as an example re. the link you provided.
First of all the organizers do not have a say in what the various groups do or do not other than the usual ‘don’t kick the religious nuts or cops in the balls’ instructions
If not the organizers then who?

I have never heard of any gay/lesbian person who suspected them of being real gays right pushers.

And re. religious prudes, that is called allowing oneself to be distracted from the goal.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@flo All right, let’s see…unfortunately, the bottom of the barrel is what shows up and ruins the parade for some of the participants…as for my friends and I, we love taking pics of and with them, as a way to say ‘welcome, you mean nothing’. What are the organizers supposed to say exactly, in your opinion? Whose standards of decency are we to use? The parades run with the help of the police, who do not arrest anyone based on clothing, so there is no legal crossing of a line occurring. Does it just bother you that it seem as if these ‘flamboyant displays’ are counterproductive? Because that kind of thing is completely debatable.

Another statement of yours, about never hearing about them being gay right pushers? Who are you talking about? The people being indecent? What do you know of the rest of their lives, exactly? Last I checked, I once sucked on Alex’s nipple and got spanked by my best friend for fun during Pride and then, oh yes, spent the rest of the year working with 3 different queer rights organizations day in and day out to achieve policy changes. Perhaps, basing your opinion of ‘the movement’ on Pride parades is seriously selling the movement short. Think about it.

flo's avatar

@tranquilsea That push back is often extreme but what was once done to them was more extreme.
And that extreme is what is in question. Why say to the world “we are a group of people who are have questionable judgement, poor taste,” etc. if not worse. Why associate indecent exposure with the Gay/Lesbian community??? That is what it has to do with sabotaging oneself.

I am going to ignore the not eloquent part…

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@flo Oh no, I was saying you are eloquent, for your age. I mistook you for one of @augustlan’s daughters. Since I’m not sure, I deleted that part.

syz's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I find it interesting that the guy in your photo appears to be only concerned with male gays. Bet he still gets the straight guy woody at the thought of two women. One hopes that he winds up somewhere like this

flo's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir, what can I say.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@syz—Perhaps, because only men matter, whether they go ‘against nature’ or not, to him
@flo – you can say you’re not her daughter, which I am now sure of—

bea2345's avatar

Perhaps, @flo , you should define your terms. What exactly is “indecent exposure”? I am informed (how reliably, I don’t know) that some festivals in India are so unbuttoned that women cannot go out in the street. Our Carnival is usually very wild, to the extent that one of the things they tell visitors is to move about in groups. But as a person living in a country with Carnival, the release makes the rest of the year bearable. Be glad if the worst excesses of the gay rights parades are limited to indecent exposure.

tranquilsea's avatar

@flo I don’t think their judgment is questionable nor do I think it is poor taste. Poor judgment and poor taste are in the eye of the beholder. It may not be your taste but it clearly is theirs.

tranquilsea's avatar

AND the whole “indecent” thing is a slippery slope. There are some people in this world that would love to put me in a niqab and a burka because they believe the way I dress is indecent. I beg to differ.

laureth's avatar

Does “indecent” display reflect on the whole gay subculture, more or less than a straight “indecent” display reflects on all straight people?

For example, when I see pictures of the (potentially NSFW) Slut Walk, it doesn’t make me think any less of victims of rape who want to assert their right to safety while walking down the street, even if they’re dressed in lingerie.

Similarly, I think that’s what the gay folks want – to assert their right to safety and an identity, even if they behave in a lewd or campy way.

bea2345's avatar

@laureth, Hear, hear! The downside to democracy (nice phrase, that, could make a song with it) includes, but is not limited to, lewdness, bad taste, obscenity, pornography, purveyors of bad art, arbiters of taste, and televangelism.

flo's avatar

You all seem not addressing the OP. Why not have gay paedophiles on the parade then?

—“Aww,@flo, I like the way you talk, opinionated and eloquent like. Very cool for your age.”
@Simone_De_Beauvoir Is have that an accurate quote of what you had earlier? And then later “I mistook you for one of @augustlan’s daughters”—
Why are you bringing @augustlan’s daughter into it? And why is noone asking you that?

And they guy at the link you provided, all he has to be is more eloquent than you, and you would accept his position then?

DominicX's avatar

@flo Plenty of people have been answering the question and you are not listening, nor are you responding to anyone’s posts or answering the questions they’ve asked for the purposes of clarification. Before you get into non-sequiturs and ridiculous slippery slope arguments involving pedophilia, why don’t you try to deal with the question and the responses at hand?

TheLadyEve's avatar

@flo The daughter of @augustlan has the username fly, which is only one letter off from flo. I don’t think @Simone_De_Beauvoir was trying to imply you were acting a certain way, just that she got your usernames confused.

faye's avatar

My daughter’s friend, a gay man, hates that some actions of people in the parades takes away from the real issues being taken seriously. The lawmakers need to see actions they can not just dismiss as lewd and indecent.

ucme's avatar

Sorry, can’t control the urge. The prick in @Simone_De_Beauvoir‘s photo looks very much like he smells of donkey piss. I’m also guessing he has the personality, intellect & charisma of an amoeba.

syz's avatar

What does pedophilia have to do with anything!?!?

GracieT's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir, on behalf of religious people everywhere, I apologize for the actions of some. Not all of us are like them.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@GracieT It’s not necessary for one religious person to apologize for all religious people but I really appreciate your stance and of course I know that not everyone feels that way.

tranquilsea's avatar

I was born and raised in Vancouver, B.C. and there is a large Gay Pride parade that happens there every year. I assume that the term Gay Pride means different things to different people. You see that statement born out in who takes part in these parades. Everyone from moms and dads with babes attached to chest or back with toddlers, to butch gay people, to gay people who you couldn’t tell they were gay by looking at them, to straight people and on and on. And yes the people who choose to dress in extremely flamboyant and risque ways.

Dressing flamboyantly and bawdily does not = pedophiles. I’m kind of offended that you would make that jump @flo and I’m not gay. The vast majority of pedophiles are the completely button-downed nice guy that lives next door.

The thing is, I don’t believe that the people who need more information to start believing that being gay is ok would get that information from nicely dressed parade.

flo's avatar

@faye “The lawmakers need to see actions they can not just dismiss as lewd and indecent”. I am not clear on that part.

@bea2345 “Indecent exposure” is my term then?
And do you go searching for people who expose themselves in public as part of their quality as your network of people? Would trust him/her as your babysitter?

@tranquilsea @Simone De Beauvoiur, exposing private body areas in public is called “flamboyant”, “not nicely dressed”? Does that not prove that it is a complete waste of time to debating this?

@laureth Are gay indecent exposers being discriminated against specifically? My OP is a specific question about the gay parade. How there is something that is like shooting oneself on the foot to the movement. Just like you wouldn’t find someone of any orientation exposing themselves in the park at work or of anywhere else in public, you wouldn’t want it in the parade either. Unless there is nobody home in the organizers office.

@syz Some homophobic people wrongly associate paedophilia to homosexuality. So, why not help to confirm it to them by having them on the parade while you are at it right?

@DominicX, The link @Simone De Beauvior posted only answers an OP which asks “why is there a Gay/Lesbian movement or parade”?, not this OP. So, why aren’t you, and the rest of you pointing that out to @Simone_De_Beauvoir?

laureth's avatar

@flo – Perhaps the issue here is that not everyone feels the same way as you do. If you’re offended by such things, you’re not forced to stick around and watch the parade. For my part, having been to a few gay pride parades now, I’ve seen outrageous and rowdy behaviour, but I haven’t seen anyone actually holding out their private parts. In other words, you may be offended by scantily clad people, but not everyone else is. The gay community isn’t always like that, it’s just a big party. If you don’t like it, don’t go.

Yes, a gay (or straight) person exposing himself to joggers in a park is creepy. But I’m not sure that it’s creepy in a socially-sanctioned atmosphere, like a gay pride parade, or Mardi Gras. Perhaps it’s an occasionally-allowed rebellion against Puritanical societal sexual mores that normally win the day, but which cannot be completely driven underground, so it’s better for them to come out (so to speak) in a somewhat controlled atmosphere. If a guy flashes me in a park, it’s an uncontrolled atmosphere, and I don’t know if he’s out to attack me or what. I have much less to fear from a guy dancing in his whitey-tighties on a parade float.

Actually, I think that might be the answer. It’s not the lewd behaviour, it’s the level of actual danger posed to bystanders.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@flo The link I posted was a picture, having nothing to do with the original question. It was to expand upon an earlier point of mine and for the sake of other flutherites, not yours.

flo's avatar

@laureth 1)a)It’s not the lewd behaviour, it’s the level of actual danger posed to bystanders. Physical danger for the bystanders is what my OP is about now?
b) “socially-sanctioned atmosphere”, highly debatable, isn’t it? The one thing the majority (I can safely say) of gay community doesn’t like about it is that.
2)“If you don’t like it, don’t go” is the kind of counter people give when they get stuck. By that logic if gay people people don’t like being discriminated against they should just go and find an island to live in. Not just gay related things, if someone doesn’t like being relegated to the back of the bus, they should just go back to Africa, and on and on.

Added: Also ideally the parade should be more than a party, considering how far there is to go toward equality.

3)Do you think the ones who expose themselves all the (to different degrees) have the best interest at heart for the gay/lesbian struggle? Should they be the leader? Should be removed from the suspect list of flashers in all other public areas? Because of course they would never think of doing that other than there?

@Simone_De_Beauvoir 1)Re. the sarcasic comment (about me not being eloquent) the purpose of which is supposed to be to distract people from the fact that you got stuck, I asked you above And they guy at the link you provided, all he has to be is more eloquent than you, and you would accept his position then?
2)First of all the organizers do not have a say in what the various groups do or do not other than the usual ‘don’t kick the religious nuts or cops in the balls’ instructions. If not them then who?

@TheLadyEve,
@Simone_De_Beauvoir just she got our usernames confused? And how do you know that for a fact?

If a segment of the community who wants to self destruct, or being paid to be destructive is answering this OP, how would that be different from your responses?

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@flo Oh for the love of god, I did get your usernames mixed up and that’s the only reason I did say you were eloquent because I happen to like Augustlan’s daughters. I deleted it because I realized you were not Fly, which is so clear now the whole thing is ridiculous. And no, I’d never accept any homophobes position, no matter how eloquent they are, though they often aren’t.

laureth's avatar

@flo – I’m not trying to tell you what your OP is about. I’m trying to answer the questions you’ve asked in your OP and then later in the discussion.

“Why do the organizers allow the practicers indecent exposure in some of the gay pride parades?”

flo's avatar

@faye, sorry, I don’t know why I wasn’t clear at the time.

@laureth I don’t see anything in my OP or subsequent questions that required bringing up the safety of the bystanders at the parades. And what about 1)b, 2) and 3)?

My answer to @syz Some homophobic people wrongly associate paedophilia to homosexuality. So, why not help to confirm it to them by having them on the parade while you are at it right?
Maybe I’ll just have to keep dreaming for ” @flo I see that you have an excellent case”.

tranquilsea's avatar

@flo so you were simply asking for people to agree with you? Why ask the question? Don’t you want to hear other people’s genuine opinions?

TheLadyEve's avatar

@flo Some homophobic people wrongly associate paedophilia to homosexuality. So, why not help to confirm it to them by having them on the parade while you are at it right? Because it’s not the responsibility of every gay person to live their life trying to dispel every possible misconception anyone might have about being gay. If you really think that being gay is the same as being a pedophile, or that there’s a link, then there’s not a gay parade in the world that could be thrown that would make you change your mind. So then why bother? Why not just have fun and push the boundaries and let loose and feel totally accepted in your sexuality for one day of the year, and those who don’t like it can fuck off?

flo's avatar

@tranquilsea I have rested my case by soooooo much it is not even funny.
And, @TheLadyEve, ”those who don’t like it can fuck off”? That is not a counter at all is it?

let loose and feel totally accepted in your sexuality”
That is your definition of Bawdy & Lewd? If that is how you describe it to people who have never been there, that is interesting but you would be misleading them.

If you really think that being gay is the same as being a pedophile, or that there’s a link, then there’s not a gay parade in the world that could be thrown that would make you change your mind.

First, The ”you“looks like a distraction creating word.
Second, I’m not asking why not work to dispel misconceptions, (which should/is on the to do list ) I’m asking why are you going out of your way to confirm the misconceptions, regardless of what the second and third parties think after the parade? Who is associating lewd, & bawdy with homosexuality? Who is insisting that not knowing enough to do private things in private, is a homosexual thing?

bea2345's avatar

@flo“Indecent exposure” is my term then? Well, yes. It was in your original question. If my reply implied anything it was that indecent exposure is in the eye of the beholder. —-One way of protest is to be up in the bystanders’ faces. “So what if I’m gay? what’s it to you? is this what you think we are?” And so forth.— That being said, I find homophobia alarming, distasteful and shameful. It is a cloak for much worse sins.

flo's avatar

@tranquilsea To answer your last post, some genuinely think gays should be persecuted, put away in an island and worse, so?

@bea2345, “indecent exposure” or whatever you want to call it we are talking about the same thing.

bea2345's avatar

@flo Thank you

flo's avatar

@bea2345 You are welcome, though I ‘m not sure what you are thanking me for.
A group (edited) wants to change the word “stampede” from the “Calgary Stampede”. Even if it were to be named “nobel prize winning activity” it still doesn’t change the activity.

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