Social Question

ETpro's avatar

Uganda's "Kill the Gays" law has come up again. Would you sign a petition to derail the barbaric plan before they push it through?

Asked by ETpro (34202 points ) November 27th, 2012

You can read about the proposed law and how to stop it here, and sign the petition if you agree with it’s goal. Here’s what I have done about it. I hope you’ll join me and ask your friends to do the same.

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36 Answers

Hawaii_Jake's avatar

I signed.

ETpro's avatar

Excellent, @Hawaii_Jake. Thanks, and please encourage your friends to do so as well.

Brian1946's avatar

I already signed a different petition protesting this murderous proposal, but after a little bit of struggle (a lot of the petitions I’ve signed have my info memorized) I was able to sign this one too.

On the previous petition I wrote a comment saying something like, “If you enact this murderous law, you may find yourself committing suicide in a bunker in Kampala”.

elbanditoroso's avatar

What good is an American signing a petition for a law that is going into effect in Uganda? This may be a feel good thing for you, but the two banks are governed more by their love of money than their love of human rights.

And even if the banks sign on, it is somewhat of a stretch to think that the government of Uganda will capitulate.

So if it feels good, sign the petition, but don’t expect serious results.

bookish1's avatar

I signed a petition about that on Avaaz, and they have been campaigning against the proposed law since last year. Thank you for spreading the word, @ETpro.

Bellatrix's avatar

I signed. Thanks @ETpro.

Yetanotheruser's avatar

I signed it too. thanks @ETpro

@elbanditoroso Anywhere anyone can apply pressure in a case like this is worth pursuing.

Bellatrix's avatar

Also @elbanditoroso those banks operate at a global level. If their actions are offending people in the US (or Australia in my case) it has the potential to affect their business at a local level. Barclay’s operate in 50 countries. They employ 140,000 people globally. Barclay’s own ING which is quite big in Australia.

Citibank also operates in Australia. Globally it has 200 million customer accounts in 160 countries.

We live in a global society. If enough people say ‘no’ globally, we can affect global reputations.

Linda_Owl's avatar

I have already signed this Petition. But I am afraid that @elbanditoroso is right, chances are that Uganda is probably not going to listen to a Petition that is signed by Americans (or the English, or the French, or the Australians, etc). However, I am willing to try to influence their decision in the hope of saving the lives of gay individuals. It is a shame that these individuals need laws to protect them from getting killed, but until Science is accepted, & Religion is regulated to the background, we need to get laws passed that give gay people the right to exist & the right to live their lives.

ZEPHYRA's avatar

What do you expect from a country whose ex-leader kept corpses frozen in his freezer and had dinners serving human flesh?

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

That would be a slippery slope. What if the Middle Eastern oil nations decided they would not sell oil to any nation that allowed women to date boys un-chaperoned, to do so would get the oil exec tossed in prison and tortured for life, or death by beheading, should they be allowed that? As much as it may be repugnant or unpleasant that is their sovereign nation to do as they see fit, same as we do here. I am sure people here would want to go to war if some Middle Eastern nation decided not to sell us oil as long as we allowed bikinis on beaches, liquor stores on inner city corners, and pornography to be sold from the shelf. If we do not want anyone telling us what to do and how, we should refrain from sticking our spoon in someone else’s Kool-aid.

bookish1's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central: I see the practical side of your argument… But do you really think that our only moral obligations are to people with whom we happen to share national citizenship?

ETpro's avatar

@Brian1946, @Bellatrix, @Yetanotheruser, @Linda_Owl & @yankeetooter Thank you all for signing,

@elbanditoroso & @Linda_Owl The petition is aimed at Barclay’s and CitiBank because they are the two largest investors in Uganda. From the petition site, “Citibank has nearly $300 million in assets invested Uganda, and is a major leader in a U.S. Chamber of Commerce based in Kampala, Uganda’s capital.

Barclays is Uganda’s third largest bank, with more than 1,000 employees in the country and 51 branches throughout the nation.”

These two firms have considerable leverage with the Ugandans. They would pull their investments and branches out of Uganda in a heartbeat rather than risk a major backlash for supporting such a fascist government in its human rights abuses.

@ZEPHYRA That does set an interesting tone for this Right-wing Christian sponsored drive to “kill the gays.” The whole idea came from a shadowy Christian Dominionist group called The Family who are deeply tied into Republican politics and also sponsor the National Prayer Breakfast in the USA.

@Hypocrisy_Central Let the OPEC countries sell only to themselves. Oil is a commodity. If the oil hungry West doesn’t buy it from the Middle East, it will buy it elsewhere. But in the wildly unlikely scenario where the entire Middle East stops selling oil to the West unless they can all “Kill the Gays” then who are they going to sell their black gold to, themselves. The objection is not realistic.

Symbeline's avatar

Jesus fucking hell that’s some freaky shit. The article says, a possible death sentence for being gay? (among other things) People really need to chill the fuck out. Signed that bad boy, let’s hope this crap doesn’t actually become a law. :(

augustlan's avatar

Signed, as well as an earlier one.

ragingloli's avatar

Signed.
Btw, did you know that the other side admires Uganda?

Seiryuu's avatar

I signed.

@ragingloli Are you really surprised by that place?

ETpro's avatar

@ragingloli I know what the dark side actually admires. They work for the Gordon Gekkos of the world, who fund them quite generously for their efforts. All the other stuff, like God, Guns and Gays is just propaganda to try to build a winning majority, because the Gordon Gekkos alone are not 50.01% of the electorate in the USA. They are actually a handful of the top 1/100th of 1%. But they fund think tanks filled with PhD’s in all 50 states cranking out bumper sticker slogans, carefully planned photo-ops and demonization aimed at confusing and bamboozling the people they intend to rob in order to transfer all the disposable wealth of the world to their sponsors. Many of the Party insiders don’t know that,

ragingloli's avatar

@Seiryuu
Not surprised at all.
Though it is quite disheartening to find out, that beliefs I had about right wingers which could have been considered overly negative and biased, were actually accurate.

sparrowfeed's avatar

Excuse me.. Kill The Gays? :S Is really baffled

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@bookish1 But do you really think that our only moral obligations are to people with whom we happen to share national citizenship? Since there is no all inclusive morality anyone can prove it is pointless to try to legislate or direct morality. If there were, it should happen here fist; let Uncle Sam clean up his own house before trying to de-clutter the homes of others. How can you complain about the dandelions in your neighbor’s yard when your own is infested with bronco grass, crab grass, and nettles?

When you speak of morality, whose morality is it? Even in the US morality swings across a wide gorge. Is it based off the majority vote? Based off who has the might to enforce the morality? Is it better morality than those of the Middle East, Brazilians, Eskimos, etc, just because the US says it is; and if so why? Morality notwithstanding, unless there is going to be a One World morality were there is no death penalty for gays, honor killings, sexual immorality, etc, then each sovereign nation is left to their own devices on what they think is moral and how to deal with it.

@ETpro If the oil hungry West doesn’t buy it from the Middle East, it will buy it elsewhere. If the oil hungry West do not buy it from the Middle East, I am sure they will find someone else to buy it; they might even get a better price so they will buy more, offsetting what the West won’t buy.

But in the wildly unlikely scenario where the entire Middle East stops selling oil to the West unless they can all “Kill the Gays” then who are they going to sell their black gold to, themselves. People think what Uganda proposes as being a wildly unlikely scenario, the world is a strange place. Lets look at it this way then, if China wanted martial arts taught in every high school and they were going to get the people of China to sign a partition to call in all the margins they have on our debt if Uncle Sam did not do as they wanted, do you believe the US government would bend or yield?

ETpro's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central China only owns 8% of the US debt, or $1.2 trillion. $9.8 trillion is owned by the American people and its government. Other foreign investors hold the rest, with Japan, the UK and Brazil leading the list. So no, since the debt they hold has not matured, I do not join Michelle Bachmann in fearing an imminent Chinese takeover of the US. I don’t see the black helicopters circling in for the kill.

bookish1's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central : I stand corrected. I’ll just throw up my hands and stop giving a shit about anyone outside of my country’s national boundaries, because there are just too many forms of morality to pick from.~

Why are you thinking uniquely in terms of nations?

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@bookish1 Why are you thinking uniquely in terms of nations? I am not thinking uniquely of nations, but since this question speaks of the morals of one nation, it attacks their sovereignty to do as they please. I am not happy with many of the morals here in the US, but the masses say these, IMO immoral acts, are OK and in some case encouraged, I have no choice but to put up with them or leave. I guess my question is who gives anyone the authority to tell another group of people what they can do or not when those who want to impose their will are just as human as those whose morals they hate, or can’t stand? Why are the morals of anyone outside of Uganda better than those inside Uganda? More guns, more money, just because of more people saying it is so, nothing more?

ETpro's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Are you seriously arguing that Adolph Hitler was just as moral as the Dali Lama? That seems to be where this line of thinking leads.

Symbeline's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central I see your point, but in the United States, homosexuals aren’t killed, or jailed. They’re not 100% accepted or even tolerated, but if I was to be a lesbian, I’d chose America, Canada and some parts of Europe in which to be gay over a hell of a lot of other places. Yeah we’re all human, and most of us answer to the product of our cultural environment, but goddammit, people wanting to condemn a certain group of people for race/sexual orientation/whatever else are pure fucking assholes, and they should be stopped. I realize there is a difference between saying and doing, but that might be kind of the point at times.

Sorry to say, but frankly I don’t mind imposing my will on someone if their actions do nothing but hurt people. And I’m nothing but a troll, seriously. (like the fantasy troll that eats babies, not an internet troll, although some may argue, lol) I probably totally contradicted myself in this post, but at least my intent here isn’t to jail or kill a buncha people, no? I just wish this law wouldn’t be passed, and then peeps could go on with their lives.

You can’t really compare jailing gays with America’s morality, because the magnitude here is very different. I don’t always agree with every day, modern society morale but man, at least I can say it’s bullshit on the Internet, and I won’t get beheaded for it, know what I’m saying?

I know good and evil don’t exist but Jesus Christ, with examples like these, it’s easy to see how people came up with those ideas…oh well. One bastard is always a bastard to another bastard’s eyes I suppose.

Brian1946's avatar

@ETpro

The petition is aimed at Barclay’s and CitiBank because they are the two largest investors in Uganda.

It’s good that you pointed that out.

Here’s a petition requesting Pepsi to basically do the same thing regarding Uganda.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@ETpro @Hypocrisy_Central Are you seriously arguing that Adolph Hitler was just as moral as the Dali Lama? One thing for certain, and two things for sure, I am NOT saying that. What I am saying is that no man had the authority to determine that. Morality without authority is an opinion. That can swing from Hitler to Dali depending one which body of people are enforcing or propagating the morality. In parts of the world if a female looks longingly at a boy she can be stone or killed with acid, they feel that is moral. In parts of this good ol’ USA decades ago if you ate with certain people in the South you might be visited by night on men who rode one white horses, with their hoods they spewed hate and burned crosses. If you did not heed to their morality they might be back and it would not be a cross they would burn next. Your guess might be strung up outside your living room window for good measure. Going back even further in history certain people thought it quite moral to have captives, criminals, and slaves taken to the arena to fight to the death or be ripped apart by wild beast. If you have or had the might to stop them from doing what they were doing, then you can say they were immoral and punish them. If you can’t then it is what they had the power to do in their nation, lands, and clans. I have no authority to say Hitler was immoral, he was a man same as I; we both were born of women, bled human blood, breath air. The only reason he had the power he had was other men gave it to him; the same as other men deemed the Dali Lama nice or moral.

@Symbeline Yeah we’re all human, and most of us answer to the product of our cultural environment, but goddammit, people wanting to condemn a certain group of people for race/sexual orientation/whatever else are pure fucking assholes, and theyshould be stopped. Everyone has the right to be a fucking asshole, as you put it. You want to stop certain people from doing certain actions because you are in a mass of like-minded people who feel it should be stopped. What if other people feel women of the West should be prevented from killing their unborn children, or cohabitating with males they are not married to, or going out by night with males un-chaperoned and they feel it should be stopped. I can bet my donuts to anyone’s dollars you would not be onboard with that. Do they have more moral authority to say or impose that on you as you suggest people impose will on the Ugandans? Life is not fair, and it is often messy. Is it a jacked up situation if you are gay in Uganda; yeah. You have three choices; stay and keep quiet, open your mouth and die or go to prison, or leave.

ETpro's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Again, I vehemently disagree with the notion that all things are moral just so long as enough people in a given community say they are. I believe that the Golden Rule is the basis of all morality, and people throwing acid in the face of a girl because she wants to go to school would not like acid thrown in their face for having studied Islamic “law”.

Symbeline's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central What if other people feel women of the West should be prevented from killing their unborn children, or cohabitating with males they are not married to, or going out by night with males un-chaperoned and they feel it should be stopped. I can bet my donuts to anyone’s dollars you would not be onboard with that.

Had you stopped at abortion, you would have got me hooked, line and sinker. Lol.
Can’t argue that. I absolutely cannot, because it involves death, and I don’t like death. Saying I don’t want gays to die but that it’s alright to kill unborn babies would be pretty lame. But that other stuff that you said after? Say, me not being allowed to sleep with who I want to, or going out on my own? Again, you’re right; you’re damn right I wouldn’t be on board with that. Ain’t nobody gonna tell me how to live my life, morality or no morality. But by cheating on people or not having males control my life, I’m not killing someone. I would fight for that right, if someone tried to take it away from me, especially if by doing these things I could get jailed or killed. I’m sure that some cultures would like to see a woman severely punished for not being inferior, and like killing gays, I just ain’t down with that shit.
That said, I’m not entirely sure I see your point, save for the abortion part. If anything, I’d severely punish people for blowing up their own kids. I always though morality had to do with what is right and what is wrong, and so one may argue about it but, I strongly feel that it’s wrong to punish people for being who they are and living their lives when they’re not hurting anyone. Sure, if I cheat on my man, it sucks, he’ll get hurt. Maybe he’ll turn into an alcoholic and eventually kill himself because of me. Somehow though, I’m not entirely sure that anti gay or anti women stuff like this actually cares about the long run, rather than individual and cultural belief. (that is if the long run was always directly linked to soemone’s actions…maybe it is, maybe it ain’t, I’m not a shrink)
But maybe my former man will come out stronger of it, and be better for it. You can’t stop people from living their life and having experiences and making mistakes, and your view here seems to completely ignore this? Just let everyone fuck each other up because we have the ’‘right’’ to be assholes? I know we’re humans and shit, but Hell even the Saxons at least respected their own people. Mostly.

Also, I’m from the North, yo.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@ETpro @Hypocrisy_Central Again, I vehemently disagree with the notion that all things are moral just so long as enough people in a given community say they are. And your aversion to it is well noted. However, your repugnancy or that of anyone else’s does not discredit their version of morality or add to yours. The Golden Rule is like a superstition, if you don’t buy into it, there is no power or authority to it. The Golden Rule was created or made by whom, and under what authority did they have to make it?

@Symbeline Again, you’re right; you’re damn right I wouldn’t be on board with that. Ain’t nobody gonna tell me how to live my life, morality or no morality. What more do I need to say? What you feel you have the right to do you would defend tooth and nail. No one is going to stop you from doing it, whether they say it is immoral or moral, YOU do not buy into THEIR morality so you will not follow it. Those Ugandans have THEIR morality which is different from yours and many other people, even mine, but they desire to do their version of what is moral same as you want to do your version. Unless one has the authority to make the other capitulate and live under the moral authority they want to impose it is all just saber rattling and steam in the wind.

ETpro's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central The Golden Rule is like a superstition, if you don’t buy into it, there is no power or authority to it. The Golden Rule was created or made by whom, and under what authority did they have to make it? Sorry, but no. The Golden Rule is simple logic. Ignore it at your own peril, because just as surely as gravity makes the apple fall when it loses its grip on the tree, what goes around comes around. Act abusive, and get abused by those you attack. And there are more of them than there are copies of you to fight them off.

Symbeline's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Unless one has the authority to make the other capitulate and live under the moral authority they want to impose it is all just saber rattling and steam in the wind.

Perhaps. Hence why I’m really hoping this petition actually does something.

I understand we all have the rights to our own morality, and ideas/versions thereof. But I don’t think anyone has the right to take away freedom and life from someone because they’re gay or whatever, and that’s what this here is about, am I right? I mean if you wanna talk about morality just being some neutral law, that makes absolutely no sense since that completely defies the definition of morality itself. I don’t want to kill all the gay haters, I just want them to NOT kill the gays. Wassa problem lol?

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@ETpro The Golden Rule is simple logic. Logic is you have more arms, men, and resources than those you feel will threaten or oppose you, that you can keep them in check if you do not want to take the time to decimate them. If you feel they might or will eventually get as strong as you then you vanquish them like weeds in a garden so they never have the chance to rise up against you; that is logic, Golden Rule or not.

…what goes around comes around. Act abusive, and get abused by those you attack. There have been scores of people through out the decade that has been raped and pillaged and died without retribution. Those who vanquished them never thought; “I better not sac that city, kill the men and rape the women, because they will turn the table on me and do it to me next”. If they thought that, they decimated them to the point they could not form any sort of resistance even if that meant wiping every last one of them from the tallest to the smallest off the face of this planet. The Golden Rule would be another name for karma, there is no scientific basis for it. Logically if I treat someone ill they will want revenge, so it is also logic I make sure they are never in a position to act on it, neither any of their family, friends, etc, even if I have to wipe them all out; even the innocent that I had no beef with less they fix their mind to come after me; THAT is logic.

@Symbeline But I don’t think anyone has the right to take away freedom and life from someone because they’re gay or whatever, and that’s what this here is about, am I right? I respect that you believe that. Where as you believe no one should put a person to death for being gay, or want to kill those who want to kill gays, many will agree with you but yet feel that death is warranted for anyone convicted of a sex crime especially if it involved force or a minor, force notwithstanding. Others could care less about any of that and feel death is warranted for walking through their turf showing your colors as you are disrespecting them; they feel they are right and if it were but for the law or the masses to say different would they be wrong?

ETpro's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central How many hundreds of millions have been slaughtered needlessly by the King of the Mountain creed? And for what. Which conqueror conquered death. Which ancient empire still stands? And now we have nuclear weapons with the capacity to destroy all life on earth. You still want to play King of the Mountain when taking what you want requires that you shoot the other guy by firing at him through your own head?

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