Can one that fully understands the Dunning-Kruger phenomenon, 'suffer' from it?

I think implicit in the definition is that one is not aware that they are not as smart or knowledgeable as they think they are. Otherwise, the concept is meaningless. (Although this might no apply to the dolphins or kittens you refer to in your topics. :-))

Yes, of course. I see it all the time.

Knowledge of it is no guarantee you won’t suffer from it and may make you more likely to. That’s baked right into the definition of it.

@Blackwater_Park @Caravanfan So you guys think that some people know the concept but feel it applies to others and not themselves? That seems possible.

That begs a question, then.
Does one then fully understand it, and knowingly act as if one is knowledgeable, but ain’t?

@janbb Yes, exactly.

.So the question hinges on fully understanding. Implied in full understanding is realizing how to avoid being subject to it. (I am loathe to say “suffer from” as it seems the suffering is by others who are conversing with somone that thinks they know more than they do.)

I do not cite Dunning-Kruger in conversation; I find those who do are usually subject to it.

@rebbel I give lectures on it for the medical residents. The problem with young physicians is that they have to make life and death decisions. My job as an old attending is to make sure that those life and death decisions are the correct ones. But they often are working on their own. So I make them understand D-K as a precaution.

It goes both ways. The Dunning-Kruger effect also means that people with knowledge and expertise in a subject tend to underestimate their expertise.

@Caravanfan I remember reading an article that referenced a study about physicians early in their career having better patient outcomes than physicians later in their career, with the notable exception of surgeons who had better outcomes as they accrued more experience. I tried searching for it but, couldn’t find it. Does that gel with what you’ve seen?

@gorillapaws No, honestly that honestly hasn’t been my experience. Of course I’m a bit self-serving as I’ve been in practice for over 30 years.

@gorillapaws I don’t believe that it goes both ways. In my understanding, it only refers to overestimating one’s knowledge of an area, not underestimating. Can you cite a source for that assertion? I may be wrong.

@janbb I found this from wikipedia:

“Some researchers also include in their definition the opposite effect for high performers: their tendency to underestimate their skills.”

It certainly seems plausible. Experts are aware of many of the related aspects they aren’t as strong in and tend to be harder on themselves.

And here’s the Britannica definition:

https://www.britannica.com/science/Dunning-Kruger-effect

It feels like including the other muddies the waters and should have another name but ok.

@janbb Since they both come from the same metacognitive phenomena, I think it’s reasonable to lump them together. The unskilled aren’t aware of what they aren’t aware of and experts are keenly aware of all that they’re unaware of (in the field of their expertise).

Perhaps the reverse could be called the Kruger-Dunning effect. ;)

As long as it isn’t the Freddie Kruger effect.

▲Lmao! ▲

@Brian1946 or maybe just kruger_d.