Assuming God doesn't exist, do you find Nature more or less beautiful and why?

Although I believe in God, if your assumption is correct, I would find nature more beautiful in its self architectured complexity.

I’m not sure I understand the question.

But I think that nature is quite beautiful without God. I think the gradual emergence of matter from physical comments, of life from matter, and of intelligence and technology from life is a much more beautiful and awe-inspiring story than the idea that a Mesopotamian deity molded us from clay to work as his garden-slaves.

I find nature absolutely beautiful and I am not quite sure if I would find it even more beautiful if I did not believe in a God.

I guess I don’t necessarily understand what this has to do with God. Perhaps someone could explain it to me.

I believe that in the book of Genesis in the bible, it says that God created everything around us or something like that. I haven’t touched a bible in ages so I don’t know the specifics. If that’s the case, though, terrific but I don’t look at nature and automatically think about God making it all.

I look at nature for the pure beauty of it and without any influences on my thoughts about how it came to be. All I know is, nature is diverse, spectacular, gorgeous, mesmerizing, and about a thousand other adjectives. It’s simply amazing.

Mother nature is my god. She is very beautiful.

@Qingu I worded it badly. What I mean is I’ve talked to many theists who believe in God because they feel the world is beautiful, and they see God in the world’s beauty. I personally am an atheist, and I see beauty in the world because it’s entirely here by accident. I see fractals, and the Golden Section, and the carbon cycle and I think “wow, that’s really REALLY cool.” And I think it’s even cooler that I believe it was all done without a designer.

@Ivan Well, is it more beautiful if it was made by hands, or by natural processes.

@Benny, I agree. The idea of emergence is what really gets me. That higher levels of order can emerge from chaotic interactions. Though I’m also a big fan of Euler’s formula.

e^πi + 1 = 0

The five most important numbers in mathematics, tied together in a single formula. So elegant!

I find it incredibly complex and beautiful in its patterns. Fibonnaci numbers in the design of shells. Snowflakes. Plants.

I don’t know how it arose or whether there is a creator.

Its beauty exists in and of itself.

@Benny: Why are asuming God doesn’t exist, if you are?

BTW you have a load of shit in that AP chest film.

@marina I agree. I recommend a book by Philip Ball, the Self Made Tapestry. It’s all about patterns in nature.

@Cardinal Well done on the chest film! I was wondering when someone would pick it up.

How much more would you enjoy drinking Coke if there was no factory that made it. Instead this sweet bubbling brown stuff came out of the ground; then over millions of years an aluminum can accumulated from meteorites hitting the ground with the brown stuff splashed into the forming can from the other falling meteorites. Then paint splashed down from the sky, so that it then formed into the beautiful drink called by the name Coke. Makes sense that there was no maker or factory for the Coke doesn’t it? Sure, thats real intellect.

I’m agnostic, leaning toward atheist and with that said I find nature to be more beautiful because it just HAPPENED. No man. No God. No hands or idea of hands. It just did because of evolution and it made sense.

WATCH PLANET EARTH!

@manoffaith3112 I’m not sure I understand your point.

@aviona Yes, exactly. That’s exactly how I feel. Evolution only holds true for biology. Nature is far more complex than just biology but I agree with the essence your point.

@ivan I worded the question badly. I clarified it in other responses. Basically, as you know, theists often look at the beauty of nature and see God in it. I see nature as more beautiful because I don’t believe in God. It’s so much more interesting when it’s not made by a designer.

It doesn’t make sense that just a simple can of Coke would just appear with no maker. It would be an insult to your intelligence that a can of Coke is just formed out of nothing. That there was no maker of a can of Coke.
How about the creative, beautiful, and complex living things all around us. Scientists can not reproduce life yet; not even one single simple cell. With each one of us humans with billions of cells thinking it would just come out of an explosion is just incredible. Hey, even a can of Coke is harder to make then just blowing something up like the big bang and expecting it to form into something to drink.

Sorry, but just something forming out of nothing just seems stupid.

@manoffaith3112 Well, you’re comparing apples and oranges. A simple can of Coke didn’t appear with no maker. Coke makers made it. And I agree that something created out of nothing seems stupid. It’s exactly why I don’t believe in Creation.

I agree there are things that are still greater then man’s intellect. Lets say that with all the knowledge in the universe mankind may know…say 10 percent. That leaves 90 percent that we don’t know as yet.
All things that we use in the modern age that benefits us like cars; refrigerators; telephones; medicines came from someone actually having to make it physically after these things were thought up and designed. None of these modern marvels do not appear magically before us.
The world was not made magically either. It was made by an eternal being who is very powerful. A being who has known all about each of us from the foundation of the earth. A being who is interested in each of our lives even if we don’t know Him…yet.

I don’t see the relevance of G-d’s existence in the question——are you asking is it beautiful because it was not created by G-d? or is it less beautiful because it was not created by G-d?

You are asking two questions in one, yes? Is that what you are asking?

@manoffaith3112, nobody believes that something popped into existence out of nothing (this is not what the big bang theory actually says). Nobody believes life came into existence randomly (evolution is not a random process).

If you’d like to discuss cosmology or evolution, I suggest you drop the tired straw-mans.

Incidentally, if you have so much trouble believing a complex entity came into existence on its own, how on earth do you justify your belief in your god? Where did he come from?

The world is a beautiful place.
God or no God.

Now, if we’re assuming no Humans, then I would probably find Nature even more beautiful.

@fireside, eh. Humans are pretty awesome. I think a cityscape at night is every bit as beautiful as a mountain, or an ant colony.

@Qingu – I was thinking more along the lines of this compared with this

But yeah, this is pretty cool from a distance.
Not so cool when it looks like this

Einstein states that time can not be in existence with out space and mass. So, God was never limited by time since He created both space and mass. He is eternal. He has always been here, and always will be here. We are limited, but He is not. Since we are finite; I can truly understand how hard it can be to wrap one’s mind around that. I challenge you to research the bible to see if God could be real. If you want to close your mind to this concept that is certainly your choice. But that would be something a person really would miss out on. Getting to know one’s creator. I have hope that one day faith can open your heart and mind to Him. You may not believe in Him; but He certainly knows you.

@manoffaith3112, by the same logic, the universe itself—which contains space and time—is eternal. It has always existed. This is what Stephen Hawking argues in A Brief History of Time, saying a creator is completely unnecessary.

I have researched the Bible, and I’d certainly be surprised if Yahweh is real. He seems like an amalgamation of other Mesopotamian deities—Marduk, Enlil, and Sin in particular. The creation story has many similarities with the Babylonian Enuma Elish, in which Marduk defeats the sea (like Yahweh does in the psalms), spreads out the dome of the sky to separate the waters, and brings light into being by speaking. Genesis’ flood story is nearly identical in detail to the earlier Atrahasis epic from Mesopotamian mythology. The cult of the moon-god Sin, like the Hebrews, avoided working on “shabatu” days, and the name Mount Sinai comes from this Babylonian god.

I mean, Yahweh certainly could be real. But so could Marduk, slayer of Tiamat, master of 50 divine names. I don’t really see why you’d think one is more likely to exist than the other. Perhaps you’d care to explain?

As I have often told people, the most wondrous thing that I can think of is that I am made, ultimately, of the dust of stars. The fact that what I see around me was crafted not by a designer, but by time and natural forces makes it far more marvelous than something merely poofed into existence.

@fireside, I think you can find a certain beauty in a polluted human trash heap if you look at it from a certain perspective. Think of the significance of all those objects, the huge number of steps and processes that went into their manufacturing, transportation, and finally consumption by human beings. And all the myriad ways that humans “consume” things, so unlike other animals—we can consume something by looking at it, absorbing its information, and some of those things are the remnants.

I think it’s beautiful if you go out of your way to take a detached perspective. Who was it who said that the Buddha can exist just as easily in the rusty gears of a motorcycle as he can in the sunrise?

I am hardly a bible apologist.

However, I’ve seen the healing hand of the living God. Just in case a person didn’t know for sure God respects every one the same. For example; a lady who was crippled was carried into my dad’s church. She may not have been a person society would really notice. She was an alcoholic through out her adult life. She’d lived in poverty and on welfare through out her life, too. Drinking alcohol had crippled her life in many ways. She had not been the best example as a mother and was perhaps lacking in many things.
Yet during one Sunday night at church her lack didn’t matter; even though she was not important as the world may see it; the mighty hand of God healed her crippled legs during prayer any way. She was so happy she kicked up her heels for awhile right then, and then ran around the inside of the church building. The rest of her life she was able to walk where she could not before prayer to a living God. There are other example I could easily write to you about. Things I’ve experienced first hand.

It is so much better to know of a just God who does not love one person more then another. A God who made each of us for a purpose instead of just floating around space as a small speck of chance. All my life; because of unmerited favor; God has given His love to a human being like me. Even though I’ve been a failure at times He still loved me. Just like He does love each of you. My fondest hope would be that you could find Him for yourself.

I may not believe there are any cars in this world. Not one car. Nada. But if I put a sleeping bag out on the busy highway of I-70 tonight I’d find the reality out in a most unfortunate way. If you don’t believe there is a God that doesn’t change the fact He is still a reality. For example one doesn’t really see the wind, but perhaps you’ve felt it on certain windy days. Even though its invisible its still measurable. The same thing is true about a living God. I’ve felt the presence of a living God, and inside it is measurable. For me; its like a profound pure energy of love. I hope one day for your own sake you’ll find the truth out about Jesus in time.

@manoffaith3112
What about every single person who suffers and dies every day without interference from the deity you have chosen?For every example that you might give of a supposed faith healing, there are thousands more who prayed to God to heal their children, their spouses, themselves, the poor and hungry and suffering of this world- yet their prayers were never answered. I feel that those who profess belief in faith healing are almost unbelievably arrogant in assuming that they have been “chosen” while millions of others suffer and grieve without an answer.

@manoffaith3112
As you mentioned, both cars and wind are measurable, tangible entities. I can show someone that both exist, without any ambiguity. The same is not true for God. I can profess that I believe deeply in Zeus and you should therefore sacrifice a bull to him. You’d demand some proof that Zeus exists. You wouldn’t believe me without evidence, no matter how much I claimed I was filled with the love of Zeus.

Do you see that your “proof” of your god is no different?

Crisw, we will get along well.

Yes I do because it is even that more precious. There is no fairy tale to sugar coat anything. I find life even more precious because of this.

Yeah, would like it if I wouldn’t be hurt.
Uhh…it would be asking like if you love a girl, then what would you prefer most? girl (God) or her clothes (Nature or the world)?

I don’t think i would feel any different about it. It is beautiful, no matter where how it came about.

It would make no difference to me. Nature is wonderful regardless of whether God exists (I believe he does) or not.

I believe nature is exceedingly beautiful. I believe in God. I believe nature’s beauty is a gift for all to enjoy and appreciate, not exploit.
I don’t think it’s possible for me to imagine NOT believe in God.

It’s more beautiful knowing that it (and us) spawned out of complete randomness than having a Creator simply will it into existence.

@manoffaith3112, nothing makes me want to believe in Yahweh more than a random internet person claiming to have witnessed an undocumented miracle and then making a thinly veiled threat of hellfire.

I find it odd that you don’t consider yourself a Bible apologist and yet saw fit to ask us to “research the Bible.” Why don’t you research the Bible? You can start by reading Deuteronomy 28 and figuring out how to reconcile your “loving God” with someone who “takes delight in bringing you to ruin and destruction”—specifically, by inflicting you with disease, slavery, and forcing you to eat the flesh of your own children.

@manoffaith3112 – It’s great that you feel the presence of a living God. I believe in God too. But it’s a belief and scientifically speaking we can’t prove or disprove the existence of God. I believe in freedom as well, and atheists also have good personal reasons not to believe in God. This is fine. We shouldn’t attempt to change their minds. We can talk about our own views and experiences. But the choice is very individual. I know many great atheists with a personal value system and ethics far superior to some who call themselves Christians and go to church every Sunday and are still very mean to other people. The history of Christianity and full of good and positive examples and also full of bad and negative examples. Same for the history of atheism or some other belief systems. We should judge people for what they really are and respect the individual choice of believing in God or not.

Your story about the alcoholic woman is wonderful and totally believable. This can be seen as an act of God in a very symbolic way and it’s also consistent with modern science and medicine. The power of faith is truly awesome.

@manoffaith3112 You are missing the point of my question. The supposition of my question begins with there is no god. I said, “Assuming God does not exist”, and you immediately went on a tangent of God must have created everything because if he didn’t then it’s stupid. I’m not trying to challenge your belief in God, or Creation, that would obviously be quixotic.

What I am saying is IF God doesn’t exist. Again, IF God doesn’t exist—would you still find beauty in nature. Or do you require God to see beauty. If you read Crisw’s response above: “As I have often told people, the most wondrous thing that I can think of is that I am made, ultimately, of the dust of stars. The fact that what I see around me was crafted not by a designer, but by time and natural forces makes it far more marvelous than something merely poofed into existence”, she gets the nail on the head. You can say, “God created man” and that’s the “poof” she’s talking about. Or, if God doesn’t exist, then man (and everything else) would have to have been created by natural processes—your body is made of remnants of supernova stars and that’s pretty fricking awesome.

@please_not_to_ask2 I worded the question badly. Please read through my clarifications on this thread, thanks.

I appreciate the openess of Matt Brown. And have considered each response and have thought about them.

Please let me make one thing clear though. I have never thought any one here was stupid. Quite the opposite. It seems like there have been honest questions that are not offensive at all to me. I tried my best not to take this to a personal level, and have tried to keep this on an intelligent level. Although I did testify to what I’ve been fortunate to experience. If I’ve offended any one here that was not what I thought would have happened. It never occured by raising a parallal idea of the subject it would bring about all thisl This place stuck me, from reading other questions, as an interesting open forum. Perhaps I was wrong.

Isn’t any one else here at least able to agree to disagree or would you rather someone with another idea just go away? I also agree that other’s ideas are good to think about. I’m human like just like you are and am glad to be open minded about other’s experiences and ideas. Its an opportunity for growth I suspect.

@manoffaith3112, who is telling you to go away?

I hope you stick around and defend the claims you’ve made. I’d certainly like to continue discussing them with you.

Thank you Qingu. I promise I enjoyed your response about the Zeus thing. I had to be quiet when I read it because other’s were sleeping here, but it some how struck me as funny.

@manoffaith3112: Please stick around. Your comment and story was great. I wasn’t offended in any way. Of course not. I value open debates and I’ve seen clashes on wis.dm when discussing supreme beings. I’d like to promote mutual respect between Christians and atheists. And I also like to promote mutual respect between traditional dogmatic Christians and modern non-dogmatic Christians. It’s important to me. This can still mean I can’t agree with some of the views expressed by traditional dogmatic Christians. I respect almost everyone. Tolerance is key. You seem like a very kind person. It’s great to have met you here on Fluther. Thanks for having this dialog!

I have found I’ve had to change my ideas through the years when an epiphany wakes me up. At one time as a young teenager I thought it natural if a person is good; good things are given to that person and if they’re bad; then that person would be punished.
But after this healing occured I’ve found out this isn’t really true. Mercy is a large part of faith. I’d rather find that instead of judgement otherwise I’m a dead duck.(Quack). With out my faith I’m a weak person in many ways, but with it great turmoil and hurt has been faced.
I do not want to seem too sentimental, but thank you both and soon I’d like to defend my faith through a look at prophecy.

@manoffaith3112 – As I said before, the power of faith can be truly powerful. I’m really glad for you. No need to defend it. It works for you and this is what really counts :-)

@manoffaith3112
Of course you should stick around. But I’d also be interested in your answers to the questions I posed. I apologize for seeming brusque.

Bring on the proof-by-prophecy arguments! You can start by explaining what in the hell the city of Tyre is still doing on the planet.

Thank you for each of your responses.

In my humble opinion questions that come up about one’s belief system and one’s spiritual direction is a personal subject to open up. There is no blame to any one here because I understand it, and I would like to sometimes share the lovely things in faith I’ve been a witness of.

When mentioning prophecy there is a scripture in the bible that mentions mankind’s increase in knowledge during the days we live in now.

There is another part of that prophecy that relates to today’s time, but I do not want to cause any hurt of other’s, so I’ll wait to see if there is even any interest. I want to be quick to listen and careful to respond.

Thanks again.
a man of faith