Can you think of any culture in history, at any point in time, where rape was less prevalent or more aggressively prosecuted than it is in Western societies today?

Yes.
A quick search might have helped you.

Death as a punishment is pretty common.
As far as I’m concerned, I’m cool with that.

@asmonet I appreciate the link, but there’s nothing in there describing a society where rape was less common than it is today.

“Can you think of any culture in history, at any point in time, where rape was less prevalent or more aggressively prosecuted than it is in Western societies today?”

You might want to head off to the library.

@asmonet I ahh…...appreciate the advice asmonet…......I’ll be sure to do that…... but you haven’t provided anything to this question, other than snide suggestion. Since you seem incapable of connecting the dots of your own answer, I’m going guess that what you’re telling me is that rape was punishable by murder, in some countries and are, therefore, implying that they were more aggressively prosecuted. I’m going to guess those cultures also didn’t prosecute husbands for raping their wives or in-family child molestation, like we do today.

If you have some valid to add…...please respond. If not, get lost

A Holocaust denier and a big baby, looks like I won the lottery. :)

I answered the question, you said one thing OR another.

You might want to go to the library to do some research, chances are no one has compiled all the data you’re looking for other than an anthropologist or sociologist. It was a valid suggestion, one you mistook for a snide remark.

Psst, I don’t have a supply of valid on hand, but as soon as I get some I’ll be sure to send that valid your way.~

Whoa. This took a downturn.

What is the purpose of this question? What will this information be used for?

@tinyfaery There was a question posted yesterday about our culture being a “rape culture.” I thought about it and decided that there is probably less rape today then at any time in history (per capita) and what rape there is, is more aggressively prosecuted then at any other time I can think of. I thought about that question and I started thinking about womens rights, classes taught in school about rape, etc..etc…..and I decided that we probably don’t have anything that could be described as a “rape culture”

So I thought I’d ask this question to see if somebody could point an error in that thinking process.

@TheIowaCynic – That would have been some good information to add to the Details section of the question.

Here’s the thing, the term “rape culture” is used to describe something that is already there. It’s something you can decide we do or don’t have, it’s a term created to name something people had noticed.

And though rape is different today from how it was five hundred or a thousand years ago, it still exists and we still—as a culture—do very little against it and victim blame heavily.

So, you want to diminish the horrifying act of rape in our society, because rape might be less prevalent and more harshly persecuted than any other time in history?

I did some searching around and found many interesting articles.

@EmpressPixie What? I didn’t understand any of that. “culture,” is a relative term. If I was to describe us as being a “horseback riding culture,” that wouldn’t really work. Do some people ride horses? Yes, they do, but the first thing that might come to somebody’s mind if I said that would be “hmmm…..we ride horses allot less today than we used to. Not sure you can really call us a horseback riding culture”

Similarly, people rape far less than they used to. Men get prosecuted for raping their wives. We also “blame the victim,” less now than at any other time or in any other culture I can think of….....

What you’re doing is thinking of an ideal – no rape anywhere and 100% sympathy for anyone who claims they were raped – and then you’re holding society up against that ideal and seeing that it falls short, and than deciding that we must be a rape culture that blames victims. That’s not good logic.

@tinyfaery That is absolutely ridiculous Tinyfaery. That is an ABSURD accusation. Wanting to put something in a relative context and wanting to diminish the horror of something are two entirely different concepts. That was a weak response.

I see no other point.

And for a bit of info, the term “rape culture” is most often used to describe universities and the military, not American culture in general. Look up that. I think smone’s very first answer was correct, “a quick search might have helped”. Your specific wording is begging the question. No purpose for that except to promote your own agenda.

@tinyfaery You have managed to turn a very sensible question about a very relevant topic, into a series of bizarre statements and accusations. This is what people do when they have nothing substantive to add to a conversation. They flap about and accuse. Is anywhere, where somebody is raped, a “rape culture?” Can you show me evidence that people in the military are raped more often than other people of their same age and income bracket? Can you show me evidence that University students are more likely to rape or be raped than other people their own age? Most importantly, the question I am referring to made no mention of the military or universities. It suggested that we, as a whole, are a “rape culture.” Can you defend that? Can you point to a period in time where rape happened less or was prosecuted more?

I suspect you cannot, which leaves you with nothing but mindless and totally illogical accusations. What you’re suggesting is that if somebody isn’t willing to get on board with you, in regards to these logically disprovable labels you seek to hand out, they must have an “agenda” That is nonsense.

I anxiously await these articles you refer to.

SEARCH

@tinyfaery Why are you telling me to search? What are you asking me to search for? I have searched for an answer to this question and have not found evidence of a culture where rape was less prevalent than it is in ours. This doesn’t mean there isn’t one and it’s why I asked this question. Do you have evidence of such a culture?

Then what was the purpose of the question? Don’t single me out because I am the ONLY one who stuck around for this oh so enlightening thread.

Now clicking stop following.

@tinyfaery The purpose of this question was to ask if there has ever been a culture in history, with less rape than the one we are currently in. That was a genuine question and I would suggest FAR less leading than the question that inspired it.

I am genuinely curious to know if there ever has been a culture with less rape or more “rape-consciousness”

You still have yet to provide me with a shred of evidence suggesting there is. Or a shred of evidence to support the idea that universities and the military are “rape cultures” or more likely to have rapists than their non University/military counterparts.

I’m anxiously awaiting your evidence

Military rape rates “The incidence of violent assaults among female veterans, the vast majority of whom reported at least one ``severe assault,’’ is much higher than in the general population and raises questions about the treatment of women currently on active duty and the 1.2 million veterans, researchers said. ”

College rape.

@augustlan Thank you for always being cool-headed and rational. You have a much higher tolerance than I. That is why you are my personal fluther god.

@tinyfaery Thank you my child ;-)
Sometimes, it’s only because I’m too busy!

Chances are, rape incidences are about the same.

You were looking for information about the amount of rapes, didn’t receive it and then said:

“Similarly, people rape far less than they used to.”

Do yourself a favor, avoid another thread where you continuously prove to us your inability to reason.

Your only avenue for an answer to any of the many questions you have asked will be found doing research of your own, or speaking to a professional who has studied this particular subject through history.

@asmonet You’ve just given another completely irrelevant response. I’m looking for informatio that would suggest we (western civilization) is plagued by an unusually high instance of rape

@tinyfaery It’s nice that you found a comforting companion but I“m still waiting for SOME type of evidence that 1) There are or were cultures in the past where rape was less prevalent 2) that University students are more likely to rape/get raped than others in their age bracket and 3)A similar study of the military.

I see you’ve accepted Augustians statements as fact, completely uncritically, without asking where this information was from.

I am still anxiously awaiting this info.

@augustlan Where did you get this information augustlan? That is a remarkable claim. I’d love to see a study that backs it up

@TheIowaCynic – Are you asking Augustlan where she got the direct quote she used from the reference she cited? Or where she got the information that she is sometimes busy?

@fireside

I would like to know where that information came from. I was in the military for 12 years and that is a REMARKABLE statement that is entirely at odds with my experience. I was also in College for 4 and can say the same thing.

I’m not going to automatically deny that she’s wrong, I would just like to see the source of that information. It sounds a bit suspicious

Check the link she included, then call the paper if you disagree.
Wait, you’re new, maybe you don’t realize that when you see something underlined in red it is a hyperlink. Click on “Military rape rates” in her post.

Probably most. If you look at cultures like the San of S. Africa or the aboriginal culture of Australia which survived into the early 20th century, rape was almost unheard of and when it did occur the punishment was expulsion which was tantamount to death. Since these were paleolithic cultures, that would indicate that rape was rare throughout the prehistoric era, most of human history.

From the early Classical era, from 3000 bce when women became valued as property, they would generally be segregated so the opportunity for rape would be very limited and also called for death.

Of course as history moves on the idea of droit du seigneur comes into effect in various cultures, the definition of rape doesn’t match common usage today. And that particular act has no consequense. Also in cultures where a woman bears the blame for violence visited upon her, the woman and not the man may be punished. In some cultures, even today, rape is seen as a punishment rather than a crime

In the last couple of centuries rape is seen as a right rather than a crime in war for the victor.

In modern times, in cultures where women are seen as independent human beings we make laws that purport to treat rape as a serious crime but in fact we are more lenient than in the past. Generally if a man will not be severely punished for rape unless he is found guilty many times.

@galileogirl

I don’t want to sound condescending, but you have made a number of very questionable presuppositions. Firstly, logically concluding that rape was rare in the pre-neolithic era based upon the behavior of Australian aborigines is more than a simple, logical stretch.

The Aboriginals of Australia and South Africa as a whole (I know nothing about the San in particular) commit rape at an OUTRAGEOUS rate, so it is really hard to imagine that….prior to whitey showing up, these folks were all at peace with the world and one another. Do you have a study you could cite, showing this?

The Next statement you make is so hard to even begin atomizing, I don’t know where to begin. The classical era was 500 BC-300 BC or thereabouts. You’re falling victim to a common lefty-fallacy. We have very little idea what took place in human cultures prior to 3,000 B.C. What we do know is that when humans first came on the historical map, women had NO rights and those rights have, in stops and starts, gradually improved throughout the world since then. Something that many lefty anthropologists would have us believe is that prior to this…..it was some kind of egalitarian paradise.

In archaic greece, and in much of the Medditeranian world, there was no concept of rape. “good” women with husbands may have been segregated but the majority of women were not. Women not under the control of a strong man, were considered “fair game” and were usually prostitutes. You’re also not factoring into this, slavery, which existed in every culture on earth, and where slaves were at the sexual disposal of their masters.

Now, the next thing you say, almost defies belief. You don’t seem like an illiterate or really dumb person so I’m having trouble understanding how you can the following.

“In the last couple of centuries rape is seen as a right rather than a crime in war for the victor.”

Maybe you confused the wording. You’re not suggesting that, prior to a few centuries ago, rape in war was a crime and it came be seen more recently as a right, are you? The exact opposite is actually the case.

We “punish rape,” less severely than in the past, where in some cultures death was the common penalty for every crime, but in past cultures, men weren’t punished for raping their wives. The definition of rape was far more confined. I don’t know of any actual study but prior to 200 years ago, I don’t suspect there was ever a person brought to trial for something like “date rape,” which gets prosecuted all the time now.

The San, better known as the Bushmen, are not the people YOU are talking about. You are talking about modern, urban dwellers who share a culture of rape as a violent act.

The truest statement you made is that you don’t know anything about the people I was referring to. I was talking about Paleolithic people (hunter/gatherers) who made up 3/4ths of human history.

In the classical era women were not roaming around unattached so that they were at the mercy of random men. The extended family was the core of society at all economic levels. Using ones slaves for sex was not illegal and therefore not a cause for punishment.

For much of the last 4000 years, rape has been a property crime and treated as such.

“In the last couple of centuries rape is seen as a right rather than a crime in war for the victor” I stand by that. In the 20th century 10s of millions of women have been raped by the winners and the losers. Show me 100 men who were punished for it. Tens of thousands of Korean women were forced to service Japanese soldiers in WWII and not one person has answered for it.

At least when rape was considered a property crime the offender had a chance of death. Today a rapist will serve a few years and only even charged for a fraction of his crimes.

Your main error is that you are applying the modern definition of a crime to eras and cultures when that behavior was not a crime. If a adult daughter was killed for disobeying her father today, that would be a crime. Not so in Rome or many other cultures where the paterfamilia had the right of life or death over his extended family.

It is impossible to make this kind of comparison over the millenia of human history, especially if one’s historical acumen is limited to historical fiction.

@galileogirl

Let’s begin with the most obvious and easily dis-provable statement you made first before we move on. I want to quote you again.

“In the last couple of centuries rape is seen as a right rather than a crime in war for the victor”

This conclusively demonstrates either your complete lack of understanding of warfare prior to 200 years ago or a willingness to ignore it.

Here is a more accurate statement – It is only in the last 100 years, and this has only been somewhat effectively enforced in the last 50 – that there were any suggestions whatsoever, that rape was not a right of conquering warrior and this was true of any culture on the planet.

For you to suggest that the rape of conquered women was considered a crime prior to 200 years ago is so insane, I don’t know where to begin. Ever read the old testament? With the exception of a few Christian/Dark-age era laws that may have discouraged soldiers from raping the vanquished, can you name me a single, solitary example of an ancient culture that considered rape in warfare a crime?

What this demonstrates is a rather clear…....let me think of the best way to describe this…....let’s call it a “Boasian” bias that seems to imagine that things were wonderful and peaceful before white people and capitalism began corrupting the purity of human life.

Rape of the vanquished was UNIVERSALLY seen as a soldiers rightful booty, prior to very recent times. The idea that this used to represent a crime shows a complete lack of understanding of pre-modern history.

Another error, As agriculture is 8,000 years old, our Paleolithic ancestors do not make up 3/4ths of the human time line, they make up 98% of it. What you still have not even vaguely demonstrated is that rape did not happen in this period.

Prior to 500 A.D,. and often thereafter in Asian and South American societies, women were property. There was no concept of rape, as you say, but if we were to retroactively apply todays standard – a woman being forced into sexual intercourse involuntarily – rape was something a woman could expect to have visited upon her often.

The second most implausible argument you posit is that in the classical era, women and men were segregated and hence there was no rape. This is bizarre. Again, I would point to slavery and the universally acknowledged right of a master to the sexual availability of his slave…...as one example. Women who worked in bars in Rome for instance, were also prostitutes and were expected to be available for sex for pay. Were someone to rape such a girl, I can assure you that no trial would ensue…....as simply one example.

I feel like I’ve been given a wet bowl of spaghetti and I have to unwind it with one chopstick. I’ll just start with that.

See, I knew you would agree with me. Good luck with your pasta.

I think you’ve mistaken Fluther for a soapbox.

Move on.

Mmmm, I went to a delicious handmade pasta dinner this weekend with 7 courses in the meal.

@augustlan

Not to be a pest, but I still dying to see where you got that information from. Where did you get it from?

@augustlan OK, I read that report and it was a clearly deceptive report. Let me break down what it says and compare that to what it is asking us to believe. This report says that “in a survey” it does not cite, that 90% of women under the age of 50 who “have served in the U.S. military,” report having been victims of sexual harrassment….......

What it is saying is that 90% of women under 50 who have served in the military were sexually harassed in their lives….......not in the military. I am completely shocked at the deceptive use of statistics

The first paragraph of that report alone, should cause a person to completely disregard it’s contents. It is so clearly misleading and biased is shocks that it made it past an editor.

What report? Decent reporters reference the surveys they are ferring to. Furthermore, the use of statistics was clearly, very deceptive and would lead an uncritical reader to false conclusions.

I can’t believe that you had to ask a third time where she got the quote from when the link was in the original post all along.

@fireside I’m new and so was just learning…....thankss for the commentary though. It seems to me, however, that the substance of the article is more important than the height of my fluther learning curve.

Your Fluther learning curve has nothing to do with your critical reading skills. I pointed the link out to you twice. I have also had other interactions with you where you add thoughts to my worlds when they just weren’t there. So your analysis means very little to me at this point. Sorry.

@fireside If my analysis means very little you, why are you talking to me? Attempting to have a monologue? Did you read the article? Did you see the citations or are you just attempting to have a hit and run personal attack?

Just trying to offer some pointers on how you might adjust to be taken more seriously in the future. Up to you if you want to take them to heart or not.

@fireside The next time I want personal advice from you, I’ll be sure to write you a note and ask. In the meantime, attempt staying on topic when either answering my questions or responding to my statements

This question is not yours. Neither is it your place to tell people how to fluther. That is what the mods are for.

@tinyfaery The question actually is mine. I’m attempting to have a rational conversation about a rational idea and have instead been met with meaningless accusation after accusation.

I’d like to be talking about the instances of rape in other cultures or how it’s been defined between cultures and over the years. Or I’d like to be making comparisons between…..for instance…...military and non-military people…......or maybe even going over the data of a newpaper article that was shown.

That’s why I asked this question…....I was curious for answers.

I have received exactly one, very poor attempt at any of that by galileogirl.

Everything else has been personal accusations, like I must be pro-rape or something or attempting to downplay rape because I’m not suggesting it’s a crazed epidemic, or stupid personal advice/attacks and other bizarre non-starting arguments.

What I have gotten from you and almost everybody who has answered this, is everything in the world EXCEPT sensible answers to this question

Here’s a log for the fire, sexual harassment in the military may mean a superior addressing a female officer as girlie. A faaar cry from rape, the topic of this thread.

No, the question is fluther’s, you might have asked it but you cannot dictate how people can or will respond.

@galileogirl Good point, but what was more deceptive was the question itself, saying “women veterans,” claimed a 90% sexual harassment rate, and than juxtaposed this fact against 1/3 of women in the general population having been raped.

@tinyfaery Are you suggesting I apologize for being irritated that people, such as yourself, rarely tried to answer this question and attempted instead, to throw personal attacks or meaningless ad hominum?

No need to apologize, just get over yourself.

@tinyfaery

Get over myself? I’ll do my best. In meantime, do me a favor and attempt to bring evidence and relevant answers into my questions, and less personal accusations and nonsense

I’ll do just as I please. Fluther can be your soapbox and my place for nonsense. Just like this question.

@tinyfaery

This was a legit question….....not some opportunity for a soap-box. I suppose you’re telling me I’ll just need to deal with your childish antics. I suppose I can do that if I have to, but if you can find it in you, you’re always welcome to respond to my questions…....I’d just prefer you be substantive.

Let’s begin with the most obvious and easily dis-provable statement you made first before we move on. I want to quote you again.

“In the last couple of centuries rape is seen as a right rather than a crime in war for the victor”

This conclusively demonstrates either your complete lack of understanding of warfare prior to 200 years ago or a willingness to ignore it.

Here is a more accurate statement – It is only in the last 100 years, and this has only been somewhat effectively enforced in the last 50 – that there were any suggestions whatsoever, that rape was not a right of conquering warrior and this was true of any culture on the planet.

For you to suggest that the rape of conquered women was considered a crime prior to 200 years ago is so insane, I don’t know where to begin. Ever read the old testament? With the exception of a few Christian/Dark-age era laws that may have discouraged soldiers from raping the vanquished, can you name me a single, solitary example of an ancient culture that considered rape in warfare a crime?

What this demonstrates is a rather clear…....let me think of the best way to describe this…....let’s call it a “Boasian” bias that seems to imagine that things were wonderful and peaceful before white people and capitalism began corrupting the purity of human life.

Rape of the vanquished was UNIVERSALLY seen as a soldiers rightful booty, prior to very recent times. The idea that this used to represent a crime shows a complete lack of understanding of pre-modern history.

Another error, As agriculture is 8,000 years old, our Paleolithic ancestors do not make up 3/4ths of the human time line, they make up 98% of it. What you still have not even vaguely demonstrated is that rape did not happen in this period.

Prior to 500 A.D,. and often thereafter in Asian and South American societies, women were property. There was no concept of rape, as you say, but if we were to retroactively apply todays standard – a woman being forced into sexual intercourse involuntarily – rape was something a woman could expect to have visited upon her often.

The second most implausible argument you posit is that in the classical era, women and men were segregated and hence there was no rape. This is bizarre. Again, I would point to slavery and the universally acknowledged right of a master to the sexual availability of his slave…...as one example. Women who worked in bars in Rome for instance, were also prostitutes and were expected to be available for sex for pay. Were someone to rape such a girl, I can assure you that no trial would ensue…....as simply one example.

I feel like I’ve been given a wet bowl of spaghetti and I have to unwind it with one chopstick. I’ll just start with that.

Which part of this is asking a question?

@tinyfaery

That would have been part of a back-and-fourth conversation I was having about the amount and frequency of rapes in past cultures.

To her credit, she at least attempted a substantive response, without suggesting that I’m minimizing the terror of rape