Is this a sign of a healthy, competitive market?

Doesn’t sound good to me, nor does taking over auto companies. Let auto companies fail; smaller companies would form to take over their assets and make them more competitive.

Well, we are in the middle of the deepest economic crisis in living memory.

@jerv This is not just a bank issue I’d wager you would see a similar trend in just about all industries across the board. I deal with about 600 companies and most if not all were flat or lost money, laid off employees and frankly are struggling to stay solvent.

The problem isn’t so much with capitalism or the “free market.” The problem is the existence of corporations. Coprorations are a government invention. They’re companies that own themselves and can amass insane amounts of wealth, and use that wealth to influence public policy to the detriment of the public good. If there were no corporations, and if companies had to be owned by specific people who were fully liable for their companies’ debts and misconduct, there would be far less corruption and social injustice in the world, and greater freedom.

@Cruiser Entirely correct. It’s just that the story is only about banks and I couldn’t find good examples of the same phenomenon in other industries.

No, it’s not. But it’s also difficult for businesses ( which is what banks are ) to make a profit when everyone and his Dutch uncle are struggling to make ends meet and can’t afford to buy much except food and clothing. And the federal government sucking up an even bigger share of investment dollars to pay just the INTEREST on our $130 TRILLION debt only makes it worse.

@CaptainHarley Unfortunately, deregulators drove the economy into a deep ditch. With consumers unable to spend, and therefore businesses unable to spend or even borrow, the GOvernment was the only one left able to cover the costs of towing the economy out of the ditch and getting it back on the road again. Had government gone into the type of austerity program it would take to suddenly balance the budget it inherited from the previous administration, we would now be in the middle of a second great depression, and all those decrying the debt would instead be shanking their fists at the boneheads who were fool enough to take their advice.

I think it’s correct to say “inherited from the previous administrationS”. When is the last time we had a balanced federal budget? Making everything partisan gets us nowhere and doesn’t advance solutions. :-)

@ItsAHabit We have had a National Debt throughout the 233 years this nation has existed we except for once in 1835, when Andrew Jackson paid the debt down. After WWII, both Democratic and Republican administrations were paying the debt down till Ronald Reagan took office. Reagan added nearly 20% of the current debt, tripling its size in his 8 years. The two Bushes rolled up nearly 50% of the current amount. http://hubpages.com/hub/The-United-States-National-Debt-233-years-in-the-making

Hello – We are going through one of the worst depressions the world has every seen. NO, it is not a sign of a healthy market.

I think you are confusing the “perfect market” conception of never making a profit for the real world. In the perfect market idea, you need to account for the value of time and other things in the marginal cost of production.

@ETpro

Nowhere did I say that we should attempt to pay down the national debt in the middle of a recession.

I don’t think that any president has paid down the national debt during the last 40 years. It’s easy to confuse the actual debt with the debt as a percentage of GNP or other measure. But the debt itself has continued to grow unabated.

There are three figures to keep in mind:

1. The budget, and whether it’s a surplus or adds to the national debt;
2. The interest on the national debt;
3. The national debt itself, which now stands at $130 MILLION dollars.

It’s also important not to confuse a budget deficit with the debt. CaptainHarley, I think you meant to say $130 trillion.

Ooops! Indeed I did! Sorry about that! : D

@CaptainHarley Thanks for clarifying that. I thought that’s what you were advocating. I fully agree once the economy recovers, we do need to attack the debt.

@ItsAHabit We were actually chipping away at the debt total till Reagan’s tax cuts and again for a time during Clinton’s administration. But you are right, most of the dwonturn in the good looking curves is dent as a percentage of GDP, where growth in the GDP also helps. Debt as a percentage of GDP is really more meaningful than the total debt, and nullifies inflation so you don’t constantly have to inflation adjust the statistics.

And both you guys. The National Debt is currently touching 13.1 trillion, not 130 trillion. Our GDP is now $14.6 trillion. So we will pass 100% of GDP if we don’t reverse that debt to GDP curve soon. Our net debt, which is the amount borrowed by the general fund (normally cited as the National Debt) less the amount held by the social security trust and all other government trust funds is now $8.58 trillion. http://zfacts.com/p/461.html

@ETpro I think we all agree that when you get a good roll going, typos happen; 131 or 11.3 instead if 13.1, “M” instead of “TR”...

First there were tribal states, then there were city-states, then there were dynastic states, then there were nation-states, and now there are corporate states. Corporatism is dynastic imperialism in a capitalist culture. If one looks at current business practice with this template, and apply how dynastic states acquired, controlled and centralized power to the state of global capitalism, the pattern is fairly obvious. When private corporations begin clearly and legitimately acquiring military, religious and political resources for imperial purposes, the next age of empires will begin.

@Fenris Like Shadowrun ?

“The kickoff came with two Supreme Court rulings, made in 1999 and 2001 respectively, that set the stage for a world in which megacorporate octopi call the shots and use shadowrunners like so many pawns in their games. Megacorporations had begun to evolve in the 1980s and ‘90s, when merger fever had everyone from banks to defense contractors glomming together like so much gunk on bathroom tile. But the first real nails in the coffin of the old world were the Seretech and Shiawase decisions. The first one upheld Seretech Corporation’s right to maintain an armed force for the protection of its personnel and property, effectively legitimizing private corp armies. The second had even worse consequences; it established corporate extraterritoriality, giving multinational corporations the same rights and privileges as foreign governments.”

I know nothing of Shadowrun. I’m just taking what I’ve seen and what I know about the logistics of power and putting 2 and 2 together. It seems I’m not the first nor the only one either. Interesting stuff though.