Democratic vote: no more mosques with minarets in Switzerland - How will the Muslim world react?

Well, how many churches have been allowed to be built in Saudi Arabia?

I’m not sure that it’s helpful to think in terms of “the Muslim world” as if that were anymore a homogeneous block than “the Christian world”. Extremists will, of course, want to boycott Swiss goods, car-bomb embassies, tear down steeples, etc. Moderates will make appeals to reason and try to educate both Westerners and the extremists about the true spirit of Islam. But we’ll only hear about the extremists.

Extremist actions will possibly involve burning flags, boycots and journalists being taken hostage. I seriously doubt Muslims in Europe will take notice, Switzerland isn’t that popular anyway and since surrounding countries still allow mosques to be built there will not be much of a problem.

Personally I think it’s BS.

@holden, I’m not sure what your point is. Are you saying that it is acceptable for Switzerland to imitate Saudi Arabia’s level of religious intolerance?

Switzerland is banning the building of minarets, not the building of mosques. That is similar to disallowing churches to have large steeples, etc.

If worshippers believe in their religion and god(s), why is certain architecture necessary?

@jfos Because it’s not about architecture, it sends a message to Muslims that they aren’t welcome. It’s not saying “no towers, steeples, or minarets over a certain height” it says “no minarets”. In other words: “you can have your Mosque, just make sure the rest of us don’t notice it because we find you unpleasant and don’t want to be aware that you exist”.

I find it interesting that two people have mentioned boycotts as part of an “extremist” response. Since when are boycotts extremist? Seems to me that boycotts would be a very appropriate response.

@jfos With that argument, you could just allow them to build them as well.

This is not about minarets or not. This is about the fear of Islam. I think it’s awful, small minded and not what we want to see in Europe. But France is not much better, neither is Sweden. A matter of fact, I suspect this could be have happened in most countries in Europe. It just happened to be Switzerland this time. The far right has risen in popularity all over EU. I fear we will see more of the like, in the future.

This does not reflect the ideals of the Union. We are supposed to be better than that. There are ancient churches in Several Muslim countries, as Egypt and Syria. But the point isn’t if they have Christian churches or not. It is what we want to stand for. If we can’t be better than the ones we criticize, what legitimacy do we have?

Minarets are not a religious necessity, but they are a religious expression, and this is a guaranteed right under the European Convention on Human Rights.

Freedom of religion can’t mean that the state has the right to forbid anything that isn’t an absolute necessity to any given faith.

This vote was surprising to me, but also not, in a sense. Europe right now is a hotbed of anti-Muslim sentiment, due to the fact that Muslim populations are growing a lot in many countries. Some countries, like France, aren’t so secretive about being anti-Muslim, I just never would have expected this from the Swiss, who are generally very civilized and genteel.

To me, it’s much more than architecture or blocking the view, or whatever, it’s proof of Muslim intolerance. Because of this, I don’t imagine the reaction will be a good one. I sincerely hope it doesn’t come to violence or destructive protests.

@Snarp Since when are boycotts extremist?

Point taken.

I was just making a point; I don’t support the decision either.

It is sad that because there are Muslim extremist groups, non-extremist Muslims have to suffer as well.

What is the reason for banning minarets?

I haven’t heard about this, thank you for bringing it to my attention – I, too, would like to know the reasoning behind this move…

It’s a sad day for freedom of religion,

prop 8, now this. direct democracy isn’t really a good idea

I’m curious to see if/how the law gets smacked down, either by Switzerland’s courts or the EU (which could find Switzerland, a member country, in violation of its religious freedom doctrine).

Imagine if Iran banned synagogues, the world media and various government would be outraged.

I can’t have an opinion unless I know the reasoning behind it. Are the minarets too tall? Will new ones violate building codes? What does the law actually say?

@airowDee, that’s not exactly the same. Switzerland didn’t ban mosques, they banned an architectural structure often found on mosques.

And I guess a Swiss person supporting the ban could hide their religious intolerance behind some kind of aesthetic sense, like their desire to preserve Switzerland’s kitchy Christmasland architectural style.

Here is a further discussion on the subject

I don’t see how a ban an minarets is going to prevent Islamicism or terrorism in Switzerland.

The Swiss need to return to their tolerance of victimless activities.

The Muslim culture, however, is still awash in a cesspool of authoritarianism, domination, honor killings, and other evolutionary throwbacks. I realize the innocent and normal Muslims are sick of this too, but they do indeed have a major cancer in their community that should be exposed and purged more and more. There are still thousands of Imams calling for deaths and beheadings for various reasons.

And yes Christians and Jews have similar types of people sometimes in their communities, but on a far less insane scale than the Muslims.

And so the Swiss are reacting to things they see in the Islamic world.

@Qingu Though, Switzerland is not an EU member, but it’s interdependent of the EU in all areas.

@Harp – Of course the Muslim world isn’t a homogeneous group. Maybe I should have simply used the word ‘Muslims’. I agree with others that extremists don’t bother with boycotts. They will organize hateful demonstrations as they did after cartoons appeared in a Danish newspaper. Last year, a bomb outside the Danish embassy in Pakistan killed eight people. Because of a cartoon of an individual. Now the reason are millions of voters. The extremists will probably use the topic to “enhance” Al-Qaeda recruitment videos.

I think conservative Muslims will consider boycotts. Every airport in the world features Swiss chocolate for example, like Toblerone. Shopkeepers might decide to remove them from duty free shops.

@Flarlarlar – You doubt Muslims in Europe will take notice? Well, I think they do. Leaders of Muslim organizations in Germany for example are shocked.

@Qingu – Great answer!

@MissAnthrope – I don’t think Europe is alone in being a hotbed of anti-Muslim sentiment. Terrorists attacks by islamist extremists happen on most continents. Take India for example. Or Bali, also frequently visited by Australians. Look at the embassy bombings in Africa. Look at the conflicts in Sudan or Nigeria. And although 911 was 8 years ago, I’m sure there’s plenty of anti-Muslim sentiment in the US as well. It got refueled after the recent Texas killing spree. All over the world some people don’t realize that islamist extremists are a small minority and that the vast majority of Muslims want to live in peace and that they too are afraid of the extremists. The sentiment should be an anti-extremism sentiment.

@mattbrowne – I don’t know if you’ve been to Europe recently (I couldn’t tell by your profile), but the anti-Muslim sentiment there differs greatly from the U.S. (can’t speak for the other countries, as I haven’t been). In the States, there may be a general suspicion of Muslims regarding terrorism, but I haven’t lately heard anyone say the Muslims should get out. It’s also generally frowned on to use racist slurs toward Middle Eastern folks; obviously there are pockets of intolerance, but in general, we still maintain our position of religious freedom and tolerance.

In Europe, it’s not so much about the terrorism, it’s that Muslim populations are kind of exploding and some Europeans feel strongly that this is a major threat to their nations’ cultures. It’s more of a racist kind of stance, similar to how blacks were treated prior to the civil rights movement in the less tolerant areas. The French want them out, as do the Dutch, which surprised the hell out of me because the Dutch are possibly the most tolerant people I’ve ever met. Now it seems the Swiss are taking anti-Muslim steps, as well.

@MissAnthrope I could be wrong but I think @mattbrowne currently lives in ze fatherland (Germany)

Perhaps Germany is different.. regrettably, I’ve been to Europe numerous times and have yet to spend any real amount of time there, even though I want to! All I know is that I’ve lived in France and the French are some of the most xenophobic people I’ve ever met in my life. They quite openly hate Muslims, obviously a sweeping generalization, but frankly, I was quite shocked at them openly using slurs in reference to Muslims and Middle Easterners.

I also was shocked to have an older Dutch man rail at me for about 10 minutes about Muslims in Holland. I had been effusing about how much I love Holland and how great the tolerance is there, and the guy was like, “Yeah, we’re very tolerant.. except those damn Muslims taking over our country, blah blah.”

In any case, I pretty much expect this sort of behavior from the French, but was fairly shocked to hear it come from a Dutchman and now the Swiss. It’s just not what I think of when I think of either of those countries.

@MissAnthrope – Well, sorry to say that but this sounds like sweeping generalizations both about Europeans and generalizations about Frenchmen. I know numerous people in France and also in the Netherlands. I’ve traveled to France dozens of times, both as an exchange student in high school, on business, and as a tourist. I’m skeptic about your views. Anecdotes do not make scientific results, as Michael Shermer likes to say. We’d need serious studies by social scientists. Labeling the French as xenophobic nation is a pretty strong accusation. Do you have any studies to back up your claim?

Like every country in the world France has problems. One problem are the sprawling suburbs with lots of social divisions, for example in Paris. On average kids of immigrants are more often unemployed or do work at minimum wage. But there are also many troubled kids with French ancestors. Some time ago it was a little bit like a civil war when thousands of cars were set on fire. I’m sure some people in France want to put the blame on somebody. Immigrants are an easy target to be declared as scapegoats. Do they speak for the majority of Frenchmen? I doubt that. Only about 10% of the people voted for the ‘Front National’, a right-wing party and the numbers are decreasing.

I think what’s really missing is an “uprising” of the vast majority of decent Muslims. In Europe. In Asia. In North America. What I mean by that is that we need tens of thousands of Muslims organization demonstrations against Taliban ideology, Al-qaeda, and the Sharia, and for Women’s Rights, progressive Islam and freedom of religion in all Islamic countries. It’s not happening in most European countries. The only exception is Turkey. There are many pro-secular demonstrations regularly. In Germany we have almost 3 million Turks, many of them now Turkish-Germans, some dual citizens. Almost none of them demonstrate for the values I’ve listed above. They support them silently. There were demonstrations against the cartoon of one Danish individual. And that’s exactly the problem. The Sharia in Saudi-Arabia is not worth demonstrating against. But Danish cartoons are.

Progressive Muslims need to speak out. We need to hear their voices more clearly. It will take away most of the irrational fears like Muslims taking over the Netherlands or France.

@mattbrowne I think you are right that the moderate muslim voices have been quite absent. The popularity of the far right in EU hasn’t been, and I think we might be drifting into an all-european political mess.

@oratio – I can understand that they can’t organize demonstrations in Saudi-Arabia which is a cruel theocracy. But they can organize demonstrations in Sweden, France, Germany and Switzerland. In Germany there’s a concept called

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tag_der_offenen_Moschee

and it’s a very good first step. There is no English Wikipedia article. Thousands of Germans have visited a mosque. It’s a yearly event. The concept also exists in Switzerland. Not sure about Sweden. See

http://worldradio.ch/wrs/news/switzerland/swiss-muslims-welcome-visitors-to-mosques.shtml

@mattbrowne That is great. No, not in Sweden, other than locally. There is big resistance to mosques as well as Islam here in practice. Especially in the south.

But they are always open for anyone to visit if they please though. But there is a very nice mosque in the heart of Stockholm that I visited. There was a lot of concern about that one, but now people seem fine with it. →

The Wilmersdorfer Moschee in Berlin looks beautiful. When I think of mosques I always think of the mosque in St. Petersburg. Lovely architecture.

@oratio – I’ve visited mosques in Germany, Turkey (Antalya area) and also many in Egypt. Some of the bigger ones in Cairo are really impressive. Never been to Istanbul yet. My nephew is working there right now. 80% of Istanbul is very modern. Secular Turks are very concerned about islamization of Turkey’s secular society. And they do speak up. But a battle is brewing in Turkey, no doubt. I support EU membership for Turkey. It would help their cause to remain modern.

@mattbrowne Yes. Turkish islamization is a cause for concern for several reasons. First it’s bound to become increasingly political, and second, the islamic intelligent design movement.

And I don’t think it’s in the Union’s interest to loose Turkey to the future North African Muslim union. But that is another discussion though.

@mattbrowne – I was under the impression that this was a discussion. Are statistics really necessary?

As a discussion, I draw on my experience. I, too, lived in France as an exchange student. Perhaps times have changed and they have become more tolerant, but my impression was that they hold themselves to be superior to everyone else. Again, generalization, but you have to admit that French pride is something to behold. In addition, anyone who looked or dressed differently from the norm, including the type of clothing one is supposed to wear to school, or not being slender, is met with disdain and ridicule.

I’ve met a handful of kind, wonderful French people and everyone else just rubbed me the wrong way. I was treated rudely, insensitively, cruelly at times, and I dislike interacting with people who think they’re better than others. It is a product of my experience, but I will say that I generally dislike French people. I admit this is a potential bias in discussions like this, but it doesn’t prevent me from having an open mind when it comes to meeting new people. I met a really lovely French couple this summer, for example, and we got along swimmingly.

However, the French people I was exposed to while living there could barely hide their contempt for Arabs and Muslims. They would tell me how cheap they are, or this or that negative thing. There’s a slang epithet they liberally threw about that is just about the equivalent of our n-word. I’m not sure how else I’m supposed to take this, but as evidence of intolerance and dislike for a racial/religious minority.

Aside from my exchange year, I’ve traveled all over western Europe. I like to talk to people everywhere I go, discussing politics and comparing lives. I’ve lived in Italy and have close Italian friends, not to mention I’ve been blessed to meet many people from all over the world thanks to my mom’s boat tours. My point is, I’m no expert, but my opinions are based on my motley experiences.

@MissAnthrope – Serious allegations demand serious scientific studies. I have no problem with claims that parts of the French society are xenophobic. In fact almost every nation on Earth has parts of its society being xenophobic. Despite Obama being President parts of American society are still racist. So are the English, the Germans, the Dutch, the Swedish and so forth. I believe this part is getting smaller and smaller but it will probably never go away completely. I would never say something like this: The Americans are some of the most racist people.

You wrote

“Europe right now is a hotbed of anti-Muslim sentiment.”

“Some countries, like France, aren’t so secretive about being anti-Muslim.”

“The French want them out, as do the Dutch.”

“The French are some of the most xenophobic people.”

My advice is no one should ever write sentences in this way, because people are getting on very dangerous turf. It’s not only insulting to many people, I also think it’s clearly very wrong. It’s cliché. It’s generalizations. Why not use sentences like this based on your experience:

“In parts of European society there seem to be more hotbeds of anti-Muslim sentiment.”

“In some countries, like France, there are people who aren’t so secretive about being anti-Muslim.”

“Some people in France want them out, as do some in the Netherlands.”

“A few Frenchmen seem to belong to the most xenophobic people I’ve ever met.”

I think there’s nothing wrong (in moderation) when people are proud of their country and cultural achievements. The problem begins when some people really feel superior and really feel that others are inferior. This ugly phenomenon exists in France and it does exist in the US. I think some Frenchmen have a problem with what they perceive as Americentrism, although many of them never visited the US. The French media like to pick speeches of American politicians as proof for Americentrism because they are full of claims like we (the Americans) have the best farmers in the world etc. The best armed forces. The best of this and that. New technology gets invented in the US. Including the world wide web. There are few areas where Americans are not the best according to those proud Americans. Some French take issue with calling a two-nation baseball sports event world series. Are those proud Americans the majority? I don’t think so. Educated Americans know what’s going on in the world. They put things in perspective. As do educated Frenchmen.

I’m aware that some American travelers are being treated very rudely in France. It’s a disgrace and absolutely unacceptable. There are people in France who are really pissed about English being the global language instead of French. My observation: they are a dying species. For the educated younger generation the issue is a no-brainer. They use English in an international context. Many work for multinational companies. When an American visits France, they use English. No big deal.

I predict that if the US officially replaces the antiquated measurement system with the metric system there will be an outcry. Some Americans will resist this. When foreigners visit those people will still use gallons and inches. But I also predict this. For the next generation the issue is a no-brainer. They will use metric at least in an international context. Many will work for multinational companies. When an Frenchman visits the, they will use metric. No big deal.

“In a survey taken the day after the Swiss vote by the Parisian polling agency Ifop, 41 percent of French people questioned said they opposed the construction of mosques, up from 22 percent in 2001. On the question of building minarets, 46 percent were opposed.” (source)

@Harp – It’s a very good article. Thanks for sharing it! I especially agree with the view that issues like minarets or the burqa are beside the point of that bigger social challenge and that the riots in France’s suburban ghettoes in 2005 had more to do with the failure of social policies, rather than a resurgent Islam.

The fears by many people both in Europe and America have to be addressed. One reason the McCain campaign tried to picture Obama as a Muslim or being strongly influenced by Muslims was the hope for more votes. Votes which would be the result of fear.

The differences between rural and urban areas are also interesting. Manhattan is multicultural and so are the centers of Paris or London or Berlin or Frankfurt. If there are hotbeds as @MissAnthrope suggest, they would seem to be rural.