Why do people keep guns in their home when they know that emotionally unstable people live in the home?

My head is cloudy from allergies and I’m having a difficult time following exactly what you want to brainstorm a solution for, @Judi. Please, excuse my ignorance. Would you make it a little clearer for someone with a congested head this morning?

@Judi It is complicated. As you point out, trying to have more laws to protect people might have the opposite effect where they might be more forced into hiding in more ways than one.

I didn’t even know about Rick Warren’s son, how very said. I just googled and none of the articles stated how he committed suicide, none mentioned a gun. It did sound like he wanted to die for a very long time. Breaks my heart. I find Rick Warren to be a warm loving man, it is so difficult to grasp how these things can happen.

Of course the problem with attempting suicide or a homicide with a gun, is it works most of the time. The person accomplishes what they set out to do. Other forms of attempts have more chance of not working if someone intervienes during the process.

I think the way it can be helped, I don’t think there is a total fix, is a cultural change. Gun oriented in my opinion need to be a little less fascinated by the gun. I can’t really out it into words. Guns need to be respected in a different way, not taken for granted, or a way to prove power or stand against liberals politically. Too much of gun ownership today is a political statement.

As far as government, at this point in America already a lot of people don’t register all their guns because they fear the government will eventually try to take them.

My guess about Adam Lamza is his mom just never imagined such a thing. Supposedly she kept guns for protection from what I heard reported.

My understanding is that the son committed suicide in his own home, not his father’s.
He was 27.

I would say it’s denial. Did Adam Lanza live with his mother? Even if he lived away, she should have had the weapons locked in a way he couldn’t have access to them even if he did killer her first. She paid the price didn’t she?

@glacial Even if it was his own home, he had a gun somehow. I think @Judi is asking how might we better prevent suicidal or mentally unstable people from having access to a gun. If it was his own gun, I don’t know if he owned it legally? I don’t know anyof the details.

As for Adam Lanza, I am not convinced he was mentally ill. Had he been diagnosed as having a likelihood of hurting himself or others? Same with the Columbine incident, I don’t think their parents had any idea this could happen. But, I could be wrong about the details.

@JLeslie Agreed. In a way, we define these people as being mentally ill simply because of the acts they commit. People were saying this of Adam Lanza as soon as the shooting happened, without waiting to hear whether he’d been diagnosed with anything.

But my comment was in response to @Judi‘s question, which still appears to me to refer to the parents.

@woodcutter Adam Lanza did live with his mother. And she did keep her guns locked away. He had to break into a safe to get them.

@glacial The way I understand it Adam had been trained to use guns though. This goes back to my wanting a shift in the culture. I understand if guns are around it is important to know how to handle them, but if a child does seem to exhibit violent behavior, a lack of empathy, or is mentally in and unstable, I think that is reason to never introduce guns to the person. I am not saying Adam fit that, I have no idea. From what I can tell no one would have guessed he would be homocidal like this. It does seem like there is an argument to keep guns out of the hands of people until over 18. Maybe over 16 at the youngest. Then maybe it would be treated differently.

@JLeslie I doubt that an age limit would be effective. The thought that immediately sprang to mind is that despite the legal drinking age, a lot of families allow/encourage their teens to have a glass of wine with dinner (here, anyway). I think many would believe that introducing their kids to guns below the legal age not only allows the parents to influence how they interact with guns, but also to remove some of the mystique, just as with alcohol.

@glacial You make a good point.

I know that Matthew Warren didn’t live with his parents but it seemed like he was very close with his family. I wonder if they knew he owned a gun?
I know my son is emotionally unstable and if I knew he had a gun I would do whatever I could to get it out of his house even if it meant letting the police know he was unstable and making him hate me.
@JLeslie, the CNN report said it was a gun.

Also, I believe that anyone who lives with any of these people know that their loved one is emotionally unstable even if they haven’t been adjudicated as such.

@glacial I sure would like to look at that gun safe if it was even weak enough to be breached. That, or he had access to the keys or knew the combination. Which again was on her.

I remember some news report saying it was well known she feared him. I can’t think of a better reason to be extra sure there was no way he could get her guns. He hit a roadblock with a dealer earlier, so a gun from some other means was the only way.

@Judi When I worked in a psych hospital one of the questions at discharge was, “is there a gun at the location you are going to when discharged.” The first time someone said to me “yes, but just for protection,” I didn’t know what to do so I asked a manager. They told me to make sure it is kept locked up. I was shocked. I hated doing discharges.

Not many people will admit to a doc they have guns now in light of all the politicking about them. I know if a doc asks me it will be a no.

@woodcutter I was amazed they told us, but in that neck of the woods it is completely commonplace to own a gun. I am assuming you are not mentally ill? Not that I judge it it or anything, my only point is you might think through the consequences of your answer better than some other people.

@JLeslie Most medical professionals are against guns to start with, and broad conclusions are drawn by them, or there is no way to really know how that information will be used. We have that right. In this age of pretty much zero privacy of our personal lives and effects, I don’t want to take a chance. This amounts to a back door gun registry. Do you really believe it when you are told your personal information will not be sold or distributed to places you know nothing of?

What was so amazing that gun ownership is commonplace in CT? They have some of the largest gun makers in the world there…for now.

@woodcutter I have no idea on the stats for medical professionals being against guns. I would guess you are right that many doctors lean liberal, but I know plenty who don’t. Many of them hate the idea of government interference, rules and demands on them as doctors or as individuals. One of our friends back in TN is pretty extreme libertarian, orthopedic surgeon. His wife told me I should get a new medical process done that they have before the FDA gets a hold of it. To me that means untested. They are happy to charge a fortune for it.

What you said about not wanting to take a chance of your gun being written down in black and white somewhere goes with what I said about people being afraid to register their guns because they believe one day government will come and round them all up.

@woodcutter Every lock has a key or a combination. I’m not sure what your point is about that. What does it matter how he got it? Given that he killed her, I doubt that he was above physically harming her until she gave it to him. Would it still be her fault then?

The term “gun safe” implies that the manufacturer and seller of the safe (not just the owner of the safe) believed that it was adequate to keep guns out of the wrong people’s hands. I think these devices are meant to keep out people who break in, not people who live in the house. What should she do, keep the key on her body at all times? What happens when she sleeps? Maybe she should swallow it on a daily basis. It becomes absurd to ask these questions at some point.

To the point, I think the people you speak about have weapons in their homes for their homes for the same reasons anybody else does. Sporting, protection, recreation, what have you. The difference is that when they know about a mental or emotional instability it is important that they take additional measures that the weapons are safely stored. Yet, any security is subject to circumvention by a very determined person. My gun safe needs two keys to open it, but it could be opened without keys with the right tools and wanton destruction of the area it is anchored. All that can be expected of a responsible owner is to make it really hard to get at the weapons.
The old glass front gun cabinets are only for homes where there are no children or unstable people, and still the weapons could be rendered safe by using what I call ‘burglar protection devices’ rendering the weapons unusable unless another lock is removed.
The bottom line about weapons storage, is nothing will stop a suitably motivated person with the right tools or knowledge.

@glacial Every gun safe can be opened. They are rated my how much effort they can resist from an attack. If a person has a lot of time they can sooner or later get it open. I hide my key to the safe so someone is going to have to really get busy. If they force me out of fear to open it they will get the guns out and probably kill me anyway. The woman had to have had a clue her kid was a bad person to introduce guns to. That is where she fucked up.

I see those old timey glass gun cabinets and wonder why. I don’t show mine off to people I know, so I sure don’t want others to know they can bust some glass, or even be temped to steal.

I know that if someone is determined they will get to them, but I still wonder if my first husband would be alive if I had insisted there be no guns in the house. I knew he was emotionally unstable.
I don’t hate guns. After my son moved out we actually bought some but he doesn’t even know about them. They are kept in a safe that he doesn’t even know about.

@Judi I find it very interesting that you would buy more guns after your experience… if they are locked away, surely they can’t be for self-defense. What was the motivation?

@Judi Don’t torture yourself. What a horrible burden for you. I think with suicide, especially adults sho have been adults for a while, if they are determined for years they will find a way. They are so miserable, so much pain for them being alive I guess. If we think of it in terms of physical pain we are able to understand it better, and people in such deep depression are in physical pain and mental pain. When the person is younger we of course are afraid they are being rash, don’t understand they might feel better, might be doing something very rash. I am not trying to say your husband might not have gone on to find happiness, or at minimum emotionally found a way out of so much despair and desperation, but I think he would have found a way to kill himself if he was so desparate whether the gun was there or not.

@glacial, I didn’t allow them in my house while I had children here. My current husband is the most emotionally stable person I know. After the financial collapse in 2008 we talked about what might have value if our economy completely tanked. Guns and ammo were on the top of the list.
I don’t use them and yes, even the sound makes me flinch, but they are locked up and they’re an investment. I don’t handle them and I don’t see them.

@Judi But, you don’t see a contradiction in wanting to keep firearms out of the hands of the unstable, and investing in guns in case of a “completely tanked” economy? Why do you suppose guns might be more valuable in such an event, and who would be buying them? I’m not trying to be confrontational, I’m genuinely interesting in your reasoning.

@glacial, I don’t see the connection. In the event of some sort of economic apocalypse where money has no value, and the Wild West prevails then having guns would make sense.
Just because my first husband was unstable doesn’t mean everyone is. I don’t want to overturn the 2nd Ammendment.
The intent of the question is to brainstorm ways to protect people’s rights while keeping them safe.

There is going to be more attention paid to how people behave now. The doc for the Co. theater shooting perp told the police he was threatening /stalking her. and they did squat. They have egg on their faces now.

People just don’t think

Incase someone needs to shoot the mentally unstable person, obviously.

I live in an odd modern democracy where everyone gets medical care and we do not generally keep guns at home. Look North of the USA. There is a country there!

There is indeed an entire country with around 4 million less people than there are in just the state of California alone.

For what it is worth, this site has some interesting stats on where intentional murders are the highest per capita. USA is far from the top of the list and some countries one would think would be high are actually not.

I think people have guns in their home with an emotionally unstable person because they think it could never happen to them. And yet I know someone who has a son who is pretty messed up and every time a horror show takes place this person is terrified the son could be the perp.

I think if these stats are to be truly relevant, they should eliminate criminals who kill each other, that is an entirely different situation because even when you outlaw guns they will still have them and continue to shoot each other. It happens everyday in Australia and according to the site noted above Au has 1.0 per 100,000 population and Canada has 1.6 per 100,000 and USA has 4.8 per 100,000. Now when you consider the difference in population in just those 3 countries the disparity is not that dramatic. More people = more crazies and crims.

Rates per hundred thousand allows for meaningful comparisons.

3X as many murders in USA than in Canada per 100,000
4.8X as many murders in USA than in Australia per 100,000

If those differences don’t stand out considering how similar these countries are on so many other things, then what will it take for you to see the point?

Population of canada 34,482,779
Population of australia 22,620,600
Population of usa 313,914,040

More people, more crazies and crims. You are never going to keep guns out of their hands no matter how many laws created.

And according to your usual posts, Canada is so superior, now you are saying USA and Canada are similar, which is it? I can’t speak for Canada, have never been there, but I know from experience that the USA and Australia are only similar in the fact there are good and bad people in both, other than that, very different.

Is that the question? Why do people keep guns in their homes when they know there is an emotionally unstable person there?

@rooeytoo So you are saying more people, more crazies and crime per 100,000 of people? There is some sort of exponential or multiplyer effect? I’m not saing there isn’t, I am only trying to be sure I understand what you are saying.

@bkcunningham, yes. Pretty much that’s the question.

I would guess the number one reason would be that people don’t really have a good understanding of mental illnesses and by the time they realize that they are dealing with a serious issue, having a gun on your property is the last thing on your mind. People living with someone who has a mental illness or is emotionally unstable may become codependent and an enabler. By the time you recognize that something is wrong with the person you are caught up in the enabling cycle yourself, in denial, trying to cope with life, attempting to educate yourself, hoping things get better on their own, trying to convince your loved one to get help…It isn’t so black and white.

I agree @bkcunningham . In retrospect, I have no idea why I didn’t tell my first husband that if he suffered from suicidal thoughts he had to get rid of the guns period. It seems to only make sense. I look back on my life then and there are a lot of things that make me go, “What the hell was I thinking?”
I think that’s why I have a lot of grace for people who make poor life choices. There really are total blind spots when you find yourself in some situations.

Experience is a good teacher, @Judi, but even then it isn’t perfect. We’re all going to look back on life and situations and think, “what if.”

@JLeslie You must be right! Per capita statistics don’t allow comparisons when we talk of the USA. That is especially true, it seems where the topic is death rate due to guns. The second Amendment apparently introduces some kind of transcendental mathematical function that nullifies any conventional statistical thinking.

According to statistics, which I think are all so dubious anyhow but we love to quote them here, violence increases when there is a great concentration of humanity in one area. There are more densely populated areas in USA than Canada or Australia. See, it’s not that hard to understand, more people, more crazies!

Now I see there was a mass knifing in Texas. Are we going to ban knives? Will we have to register our pocketknife?? Should you only eat food that does not require a knife to cut it if there is someone mentally ill in the house?

It gets ridiculous after a while, doesn’t it!

@rooeytoo “There are more densely populated areas in USA than Canada or Australia.”

I can’t speak for Australia, but I would be surprised if population density were very different between Canada and the US. We have a large area, and a low population compared to the US, but most of the population (by far) is in a narrow band at the south of the country.
It gets cold up north, you know? :)

I am sure if we google we can settle the matter. Or maybe you are simply superior human beings up there?

@rooeytoo Huh?

@glacial is that a response?

@rooeytoo It’s an expression of confusion. I don’t understand what you were trying to say.

I think it was something to do with population….?

I don’t know how to say it more plainly, sparsely populated areas = less crime. Densely populated areas = higher crime rate. Why is that difficult to understand?

@rooeytoo I think people became confused because you wrote the total populaion of the countries. What I understand you to say now if America has more urban, densely populated places, and you figure more of the crazies and crime happen in densely populated cities. Which it might, I am not saying that is wrong.

Our point is if there are 10 million people in a country and they live in 100 sq. miles, and a percentage live in cities and others live rural, and then in the another country there are 100 million people (10 times the first country) in 1,000 sq. miles (also 10 times) with 10 times the amount of people living in big cities, the number per 100,000 is the same. You had seemed to be saying this math is not true. Another way to look at it is if America has 20 large cities and Australia has 4, and those 4 are smaller to begin with, it could be apples to apples possibly.

If you are saying that math is true, then I guess what you are saying is in the US we have more cities with dense populations per 1 million or 10 million, whichever number you pick, people. I have no idea if that is true or not.

Ok one more go, if you have 100,000 living together in 10 square blocks and another 100,000 living in an area 100 times that size, you are going to have more murders in the 10 square blocks because they are living on top of each other.

@rooeytoo Ok, but what I am trying to say is that it doesn’t make sense to compare the population density of the US, which looks like this for the whole country, to the population density of Canada, which looks like this for the whole country. 90% of our population is concentrated within a very small area. So, although our overall population density is low, I would guess that within that area (where everybody lives), population density is likely quite similar to that in most parts of the US. I am not going to research the numbers for you, I’m just saying that your assertion doesn’t ring true for me, so I won’t accept it on faith. Likewise, I have no idea whether your statement about violence is true either – I’m just pointing out this one thing about population density. It has nothing to do with superiority of any kind; I don’t know where that comment comes from.

Note that because these two maps use different units and different class breaks, they cannot be compared directly for statistical purposes. The point is to show the difference in how population is distributed over our respective areas.

@rooeytoo I am willing to accept that premise. I am not trying to press my point, just trying to understand your point. America has many more cities that are densely populated compared to Australia and Canada. Let’s say all cities are equal around the world. America has more gun crime in total because we have more cities. But, if we also have more gun crime per city, our cities are more violent. Are you saying US cities are more densely populated, or simply that America has more densely populated cities?

It could be that other countries do more to address the root cause of violent crime to start with. What does the US do? Apparently not much that works.

I think there was a study done once where rats were breeding and overpopulating a certain space. There came a point where they started killing each other off, until the population was brought back under control.

In the movie Bowling for Columbine they asked the question about why we had so much gun violence even though Canada has more guns per capita than we do. The only answer that made sense was that we have created a culture of fear with out 24 hour news cycle, “Breaking News” mentality. People afraid sometimes do crazy things.

But people in Canada are exposed to the same media, aren’t they @Judi?

I think they have their own news unless they choose to watch American news and they can talk about the crazy shit happening “over there.” Have you seen the movie @Dutchess_III ? I know Michael Moore gets a bad rap. He’s obnoxious and sloppy but this movie seemed pretty balanced (except when he confronted Charlton Heston, that was just rude.) He didn’t demonized guns, he just opened a dialog about why we have more gun violence than other industrialized nations.

Haven’t seen it.

He also blames our war culture. A bigger stretch, but not so far I think. The one that hit me was fear.

It just wasn’t all that long ago that “we” were fighting for our lives and our land against England. Then the Civil War. We have a fight mentality.

@Judi I tend to agree with you about the difference between our two countries. We certainly have a lot of guns, but there is just not that sense of having to protect ourselves from our own neighbours – and that is how we think of others in our cities, as neighbours. Lots of unlocked doors and windows here, even in major cities like the one I live in. I know a few people who have had apartments robbed (though it has never happened to me), and none of them has considered buying a gun in case it happens again. It just isn’t the way we think as a people, I feel.

I know several people who own guns, but none of them are city dwellers; they live in the country, and they’re hunters or they shoot for fun.

As to the media, we do watch a lot of American TV shows, but I suspect watching/reading local news is much more common. I’m not sure what the stats are on US cable news, for which we don’t yet have the equivalent (that will happen eventually). I do have family members who watch American news (including FOX News), but mainly because they lived in the US for a time. I read Canadian national papers, and watch Rachel Maddow – mainly because she’s Rachel Maddow. Among my own friends, there is a wide diversity of tastes in news media.

@Judi You know what I found interestong and shocking? My friends in TN talk about America being a gun culture similat to Michael Moore in the beginning of his movie. That America grew up with guns and war and just picture us bang bang, boom, fighting off everyone. Here’s the thing, Moore talks about it like we should be embarrassed by it. My friends talk about proudly and as a justification for why America should continue to be gun oriented. That it is part of the Americam identity or something and trying to take that away is an ide tity crisis I guess.

What is an ide tity crisis? LOL!

looks like an auto correct for identity crisis.

I figured. Auto correct sure is dumb sometimes.

Ide tity. Fu ny

Can’t blame auto correct, that was just my typing. Didn’t hit the N well I guess.

L L!

Maybe it’s identity crisis having an identity crisis.

I d n’t kn w wh I am any m re!

Just saw this. Matthew Warren bought the unregistered gun on the Internet.

I think it is a horrific and sad story, @Judi. Why would the pastor say he forgives the person who sold his son the gun and the person needs to seek forgiveness?

Because he knows that holding on to resentment and hatred is like taking poison and expecting the other person to die.

Was he holding the other person responsible, in his heart?

Well, if it were me I would be asking, “who sold him that?” The mind always asks “why” and every possibility goes through your head. I guess this answers my main question though. His parents probably didn’t even know he had it. After why you ask, “How could this have been avoided?” At least this is the way my mind worked as I went through this process.

Right. I understand that. You search for answers and want to know why and what could I have done. The 20/20 hindsight kicks in. Even though you know you weren’t responsible and there was nothing you could have done to prevent the deaths, part of the grieving is to play God and think that you could have changed things. I sincerely hope we don’t legislate with those emotions.

Good grief. Of course you should legislate with those emotions. Those are exactly the right emotions, and that is exactly how change happens.

How can a new law prevent someone from committing suicide, @glacial?

@bkcunningham I’m not answering for @glacial. I do think that we might be able to prevent some very young people from accomplishing suicide. Young people really don’t understand the consequences, they also are less likely to figure out how to get a gun, and might just pop pills or some other way that sometimes we arrive in time. Homocide might be different. And, adult suicide is different if the person has long standing mental health issues. But, children and teens, many of them are just in a temporary depression or temporary horrible situation and will go on to be nornal, healthy and happy adults.

@bkcunningham Why lock the door if your house has windows?

Well, to the locking your house, @glacial, I always say that locks are for honest people. If you want to break in and do someone harm, physically or financially, you will find a way. The same with applying a new law to suicide. If someone wants to do themselves harm, you aren’t going to stop them. You could have 24-hour surveillance on someone who has a mental health issues. If they want to commit suicide, you most likely won’t stop them. You might slow them down. But you won’t stop them.

My hope is that the discussion, in general, not just here on Fluther, would not go to legislating more gun control but to the heart of the matter which is mental health, the treatment of those with mental health issues and the attitude of others in dealing with people who desperately need assistance dealing with their own mental illness or that of a loved one trying to help.

Don’t put more laws on the books pushing for gun control and feel good that you’ve solved the problem. You haven’t.

@JLeslie, I get what you are saying, but if you aren’t aware that your preteen or teenager is buying a gun over the Internet, paying for it and having it delivered to your home or somewhere else, there may be some very serious issues going on in your home.

@bkcunningham I’m going to go out on a limb and say not necessarily. I am not a parent, but it seems to me almost all kids do things behind their parents back. Even if a parent has an idea their child is depressed, they may mistake it for normal teenage angst, and have no idea how extreme it is. This happens to good parents. Remember how cruiser here on fluther was blindsided by how extremely depressed and anxious his son was? He became aware when it was extremely accute and very scary; after it had been going on for a while.

Buying a gun online isn’t free. I would hope you’d know where your child is getting the kind of money and where the money is going, @JLeslie. That is what I meant. Of course recognizing and knowing how to deal with depression is at the heart of the discussion, IMO. Denial and being blindsided are also part of the discussion I think we should be having.

As the mother of an adult child who suffers from mental illness I can tell you that he (and probably others) are alive today because he never had access to guns. He tried a lot of methods and none of them worked. Today, I wish there were a place I could report his history of emotional instability to be sure he can never buy a gun. Unfortunately, although he has had several hospitalizations he has never been adjudicated dangerously mentally ill although he was on disability for bipolar. He now works for a huge corporation that never would have hired him if they knew the full extent of his illness. If he got hired there he could probably go in, pass a background check and buy a gun. I pray he never does since right now I am the target of his rage. (Thank goodness I live 1200 miles away.)
I don’t know the answer because I don’t want the mentally ill to be redlined in employment like those with criminal backgrounds have been but I wish there was a way to keep guns out of the hands of emotionally unstable people like Matthew Warren and my son.

@bkcunningham I see. I think there are so many facets to this. I doubt all these kids in Memphis who carry guns buy them online. I really have no idea where they buy them, I am so ignorant to all of that. My assumption was they get the guns on some sort of local black market. Maybe they are just swiping guns from their parents, maybe the adult members of gangs give them to the underage kids? I have no idea. If the child gets a gun from his friend at school, the parent might not know for days, weeks, months, ever. Maybe there are clues. Maybe the parent is worried the child is hanging out with a set of kids that seem like trouble, but I doubt that is always the case. I have no idea how much a gun is? Is it a few hundred?

@Judi That is complicated. It’s like the catch 22 of being diagnosed with a medical problem and getting treatment, but having to worry now you have something preexisting. What a nightmare.

@judi- don’t take this wrong because I am just asking, but if his rage is so potent that you are glad he is 1200 miles away. Then what happens if someone else incurs his rage? With or without a gun, will he act out towards that person in a vicious manner?

And if the answer is yes or maybe, then what is society to do about borderline people? Mental health care does not guarantee a cure. That is why I agree with what @bkcunningham says, I no longer believe that there is any gun law or regulation that is going to stop the problem, because there is no one single problem.

@rooeytoo, I wonder the same thing. He IS seeing a therapist once a week and under a doctors care. It is such a difficult disease because he is really smart and his mind just won’t stop. He takes one little bit of information and keeps thinking on it and before you know it his mind has spun it into this huge story that only has this vague hint of reality and he is all upset over a story that he believes but is mostly a figment of his imagination.

Do you stay in touch with him or his spouse enough to know if his therapy or (I’m assuming) his meds are helping, @Judi? Do you mind if I ask what kind of illness he ha? If you said, I’m sorry, I missed it.

He just recently made me the bad guy and in the process of cussing me out told me that he sees a therapist 4 times a month. He was hospitalized recently and I am not exactly sure why because that’s what caused him to be upset with me. He posted on Facebook that he had been in a coma and I had the nerve to ask about it. I found out later (after he blocked me and someone else told me) that he had some sort of reaction to the meds that caused his body to stop producing dopamine (I’m sorry I can’t remember what the condition is called) and that’s what put him in the hospital. Could have been that he abruptly quit his meds, I don’t know. So, to answer your question, that’s how I know he is being seen by a doctor.
His diagnosis changes depending on what he’s willing to say but I’m sticking with bipolar. That’s the diagnosis that got him on disability, but he’s off that now since he got a job with great insurance.

@Judi Any chance he self medicates with drugs or alcohol?

@JLeslie, he used to but I don’t think so now. Maybe a beer every now and then. He’s pretty focused on his family.

@Judi I have seen people lash out hard at a parent and cut off from them from being in therapy. The amount of hate and anger is incredible. My opinion is particular therapies encourage it. I have no idea if that applies to your situation. Many of the paients say they are not angry and don’t hate, but from the outside it looks like both to an extreme.

Who knows. Once I got him on disability we agreed that his mental health was in his own hands. He didn’t tell me what meds he was on and only occasionally mentioned something that happened in therapy.
I know it’s common to blame your mother for all your problems but the truth is he inherited a genetic problem from his father. I know that I often blamed my mother in law for my first husbands issues and not until my son started manifesting the same symptoms did I realize that she really did the best she could with the hand she was dealt.

It is just my opinion, and honestly not one I’ve thought about from all angles, but I wouldn’t have a problem with someone who is on disability for depression or other mental illnesses, (not in general, but specific mental illnesses) being flagged before purchasing a gun or before obtaining a concealed or open carry permit.

I know many states do have regulations regarding those specific things when obtaining firearms and/or permits. I wouldn’t mind making it nationwide. Why not?

@bkcunningham This is what background checks are about. That is one of the things being proposed, and it has very wide support among Americans.

Criminal background checks are required in all states at a minimum, @glacial. I don’t know how many prohibit someone who is on disability for depression from purchasing a firearm or from owning a firearm. What are you saying is being proposed?

@bkcunningham “The agreement will “prevent criminals and the mentally ill from getting firearms and harming people,” Senator Joe Manchin, a West Virginia Democrat, told reporters today.”

He’s talking about the proposed legislation that is now being considered by the Senate.

The background check would probably not flag someone who is (or was in my son’s case) on disability for mental illness because of HIPPA. It is my understanding that only if they have been adjudicated as dangerous, would they end up on the list.
I know that in most states there is some sort of physicians hold that can be done for 72 hours or other time period but if they want to keep them longer a judge has to declare them a danger to themselves or others. (that’s when it is adjudicated, by the judge,)
In my 10 years working in a psych hospital we never had a judge hold anyone longer than the 72 hours. Not even they guy who cut his own balls out and ate them.

Right, @Judi. What do you think about waiving the HIPPA for Medicaid disability cases for certain mental illnesses?

That is pretty broad, @glacial. That is really what the Brady Bill set out to accomplish.

@bkcunningham, having a mental illness doesn’t make you dangerous. Being dangerous makes you dangerous and sometimes a mental illness might make you more dangerous. That’s a very big SOMETIMES!. I think there is already enough stigma attached to mental illness and dangerous people shouldn’t have firearms regardless of their medical history.

@bkcunningham I’m sorry, I didn’t realize that you were specifically asking about using disability records to flag people for background checks. I have no problem with flagging people who are deemed “dangerous” by some kind of fair criterion, but to flag everyone who is depressed is a bad idea. As @Judi points out, not all of these people are a danger, and frankly, we’re diagnosing depression in, what, 20% of the population now? It’s probably simpler just to say that no one can pass a background check. ~

I’m not saying having a mental illness or depression makes you violent. Nothing of the sort. I’m just asking if in a situation like your son’s, @Judi, where you say he and others are alive today because he never had access to a gun and you also say, “I wish there were a place I could report his history of emotional instability to be sure he can never buy a gun,” if there shouldn’t at least be a discussion about stopping your son and others like him from having guns? The place to begin the discussion would be with people who are on Medicaid disability for mental illness. I’m not saying that everyone who has a mental illness should not own a gun, I’m just offering that as a staring place a closer look and for a discussion.

But everyone on disability even for mental illness is not dangerous. I think it’s taking a sledgehammer where a scalpel is more appropriate. I don’t like taking classes of people and discriminating against them. I don’t have the answer either but there has got to be something better than that.

I know that not everyone is dangerous who has a mental illness. I’m not saying that. I’m saying that perhaps since it has already been determined that your son has a mental illness that has rendered him disabled and you know he is dangerous, perhaps that could be a starting place for a solution.

Yes, but I have this brain that goes to the worst case scenario. Just because a parent (of an adult person) says they’re dangerous shouldn’t be all the evidence needed. I would think it would take more evidence than my testimony to deny someone of their rights otherwise there would be a lot of room for abuse.

^^^ My brain does that too. Drives my husband nuts. HOWEVER, I’m Always Prepared so when it does hit I know just what to do.

@Dutchess_lll, we were supposed to be attorneys.

You don’t see any way to ever keep guns out of the hands of people who have serious mental health issues like Adam Lanza, Seung-Hui Cho, Jared Loughner, James Eagan Holmes and others who have gone on killing sprees? I think it is at least worth looking at and discussing. I wouldn’t even pretend to have the answer. But I liken it to someone with a serious drinking problem who keeps drinking and driving and people know they are doing it, whether it is the courts, their family, the bartenders or whomever; people know that they are a ticking time bomb, but they say there isn’t anything they can do until they kill themselves or somebody else. There has to be better solutions than getting rid of all the vehicles or alcohol.

I would love to find an answer. Maybe a process could be established based on a complaint process and evaluation.

@bkcunningham But no one has proposed “getting rid of all the vehicles or alcohol”. They aren’t even proposing registering the vehicles, which would make sense. All they’re proposing is that people who have just been arrested for a DUI not be handed a set of keys without question.

Until they’ve been arrested?

@bkcunningham ?

What do you mean, “All they’re proposing is that people who have just been arrested….”

What I don’t understand, @Judi, is how mental health treatment in the US has gotten to the point that a patient is given mind altering medications, put on disability and only talks to an actual psychiatrist once a month for 30 minutes or less. I think it is scary and a disgrace. The state funded therapists are mediocre at best.

@bkcunningham Ah! I’m just saying that background checks are not equivalent to confiscating guns. That is, preventing specific people from obtaning guns is not equivalent to preventing everyone from having them.

Some people do want to take away all guns, @glacial. But I know you aren’t saying that.

@bkcunningham I realize that that is something that American conservatives are desperately convinced of, but that just isn’t the plan. It’s not going to happen, despite all the exciting black helicopter fantasies.

I’m not saying it is going to happen. I’m telling you there are people, individual people in this world who would be happy to see all guns disappear from private citizens’ ownership. That isn’t a conspiracy theory. That is a fact.

I’m sure “some people” would like to take away all guns, but they won’t prevail.

@bkcunningham Oh, sure. I would love to see that. But I know it’s beyond unlikely, and more importantly, most people don’t agree with me, and I respect the fact that I live in a democracy.

I don’t know why I thought you were Canadian, @glacial. I must have mixed you up with someone else as to where you live.

@bkcunningham I am Canadian. We also enjoy democracy here.

Furthermore, we have just been discussing the fact that I am Canadian on a different question. So, what was the point of your statement?

@bkcunningham I don’t think Adam Lanza had mental issues that would have triggered making him unable to have a gun. When I listened to an expert, he said he didn’t believe he was mentally ill, and probably around 50% of people who do these sort of acts aren’t.

The investigation into Lanza’s mental health has not and may not be released, @JLeslie, because of Connecticut Rules of Professional Conduct.

I should have put the ”~” after my comment, @glacial.

@bkcunningham Even so, this expert said many of these mass shooting there was no serious mental illness before the shootings to indicate what was about to happen. He said the thing to look for is obsession with that sort of event, meaning obsession with other mass shootings. There were some other signs, maybe they were fixated and angry at a particular person or thing. I don’t remember exactly. Anyway, there would be no documented history to keep a gun out of their hand probably.

A recent article and investigation in Mother Jones, that said “the majority” of mass shooters had serious mental illness.

@bkcunningham Interesting.

If I remember correctly Lanza was reported to have been quiet and brilliant, going to college at age 16. It will be interesting to see if more information is released in the future.

The Columbine killers, were they said to have been mentally ill? I thought they were bullied or something?

There obviously is something missing if someone can kill, especially if they kill completely innocent people. I just don’t think their behavior necessarily clues others in to know they are about to do something so horrific. Unless we come across their arsenol of guns or bomb making materials. But, sometimes it is taking guns from their parents or buying a gun just days before the incident happens I would guess.

Adam was diagnosed autistic, which technically is a mental illness, but violence is not typical with that disorder.

After the shooting, Lanza’s brother was quoted by more than one news agency as saying his brother had Asperger’s, autism and “a personalitiy disorder.” Neighbors and family friends said Lanza was troubled and had been since he was a small child.

Eric Harris, one of the murderers at Columbine, was on several medications for depression including Luvox, a pretty controversial medication. Read this if you get a chance, @JLeslie. I found it when I was looking for information about the Columbine shooters.

Autism is a neurological disorder, not a mental illness.

But can it cause uncontrolled, violent behavior?

No. These are all signs pointing to a mental illness or personality disorder…undiagnosed.

Kk

@bkcunningham Thanks for the link. Here are some of my thoughts which are in no way trying to be argumentative.

I do believe people can have very adverse reactions and side effects to those medications, and any medication. It is hard to know what is caused by the meds, or what is a misdiagnosis and symptoms developed whole taking the meds, that are part of the mental illness the person already had. For instance, some patients became manic on some SSRI drugs, if they were bipolar to begin with, but just diagnosed with depression that could be a factor. However, I will say, I took an SSRI once for a few weeks and it was horrible. I felt mentally out of whack, and the doctor had prescribed it with bensos, ecause he said himself the drug can create a lot of anxiety, especially initially, and one of my complaints was anxiety. It made no sense to give me that drug in my opinion, but I took it, because everyone around me was tired of me being contrary to doctors (long story).

Some patients had hallucinations. For all we know some of them were schizophrenic to begin with.

If you are part of a drug trial and while taking the med you catch a stomach flu and report you were nauseas and vomited, that becomes part of the side effects of the drug. It is not clarified why a symptom might have occured. If you got a headache, but also skipped your coffee that day, it now became a side effect of the drug.

Drug companies set aside money when a drug comes to market (they are forced to) for lawsuits, because it is understood and assumed some people will be harmed by the drug. Lawyers jump on it, knowing funds are available. Even if the drug had warnings, still the lawyers know they can get money, because the drug companies plan on paying out money when they plan the budgets. My point with this is sometimes it is hard to make a sweeping generalization about how good or bad a drug is by a few reports. There has to be high percentages of problems for a drug to recalled or considered extremely dangerous.

I am not saying your article does not have any merit, just saying I never know how to take that sort of information without knowing more.

Depression I think of as so common among teenagers it would have to be extremely bad for me to be very concerned. Are we going to say all depressed people, all ages, no matter what degree of depression can’t own guns? That all people on antidepressants can’t own guns? Then people will be afraid to report their depression I would think. I am very very sure many people who have been diagnosed with depression and/or are on antidepresants own guns. It’s a quandary really how to handle it.

I don’t think anyone under 18 should be able to buy a gun, I assume that is the law? I don’t know though.

O shit. My sister plunked my mom down in a trial drug thing for Alzheimer’s, which she hadn’t been diagnosed with….wait. To be PART of the program you had to be diagnosed with Alzheimer’s so their “Doctors” conveniently diagnosed my mom with Alz so she could be part of the program. It was just horrible for the next 7 years. One drug after another. The drugs took her mind, drove her nuts, eventually killed her, IMO. I still don’t know that she even had Alz.

@Dutchess_III Why did she want to be a part of that drug trial? Or, why did her doctor want her to be part of it?

The personality disorder was the concern, not his autism.

Actually, one thing that really stands out about mass shootings is that the vast majority of people who commit them are male. Suicides might be very different. I think girls/women are more likely to turn their anger and sorrow inward and be more of a danger to themselves.

@JLeslie Well…this is something I will regret till the day I die. My mom had always emotional issues, and she was ditzy. I remember borrowing money from her a couple of times (she lived 2000 miles away.) The first time I paid her back with a check….which she tore up, ie: “It’s OK, you don’t have to pay me back.” Then spent the next 6 months reminding me of the time she’d given me that $100! The second time I sent a money order. She was only in her mid-50’s, but in the letter I sent with the money order I stressed that this was not a check and if she threw it away it would be like throwing cash away. I mean, that’s just the kind of ditzy thing she’d do, had been doing as long as I could remember.
Well, when she retired, at 63, she moved back here to be with the grandkids. And, as she aged the ditzyness didn’t get any better, of course!
Well, when she was about 68 I casually questioned in an email to my sister if Mom could be suffering from early Alzheimer. My sister went ape shit, in anger and denial. I remember one line clearly, where she said, ”There is nothing wrong with Mom and there never has been!!!” I’m like, “Jomp back! OK!” I never planned on mentioning it again.
Well, next thing I knew, slam, bam, thank you Ma’am, my sister had her registered for a week-long, new experimental Alzheimer’s drug—I think it was Aricept.
And….that’s all she wrote. There is MUCH more to it, of course, but after starting on the drug (s) Mom just went down hill, very fast. She may have been ditzy, but before the drugs she was vibrantly healthy. She was 71 when she died, unable to talk or walk, comatose, bed ridden. I can’t stop blaming myself. If only I hadn’t sent that “casual” email all those years ago….
Drugs.

@Dutchess_III You have to stop punishing yourself. It is very possible you were right and she was starting to get alzheimer’s. I have no idea if the meds had very bad side effects for her or if her disease, if she was indeed developing some sort of dementia, progressed quickly. I believe Aricept made it to market and is still available, so my assumption is side effects were within reasonable limits statistically and there was some positive effect from the drug. But; big but; I am not saying you are not correct in feeling the medication made her worse. You know better, you know her, you know what changes happened after she started taking the medication. Her doctor is responsible for her health. If the medication was causing harm the doctor should have taken her off, don’t beat yourself up. I am not saying the doctor would always do the right thing, you know me better than that, he may not have believed the meds were harming her. I will say I don’t think a doctor would make up an alzheimer’s diagnosis, she must have fit some parameters of the disease.

To make you feel better about studies. Some studies get stopped after a very short time if the test group is doing significantly worse than the group not receiving treatment. Sometimes it is the opposite, and whatever treatment that is being run is so effective it seems unethical not to give that treatment to the patients not receiving it. This happened with people who had coratid artery blockages in their neck. Surgery was saving so many lives they stopped the study, because it was unethical not to offer that treatment to people in the study who did not have the option.

I feel like I’ve had this same argument with JLeslie in the past at some point.

@cheebdragon Which argument? I don’t remember anything specifically.

I vaguely recall guns, mass shootings, and mental health treatment but I can’t for the life of me remember what question it was, pretty sure bkcunningham was part of it also….
Maybe I’m just trippen, but It feels like more than deja vu.

Wouldn’t surprise me. The topic has come up before.

My youngest sister had emotional issues. She pulled a knife on us once. I am so glad my folks didn’t have guns.