Why did Adam Lambert say, " I'm PROUD to be gay ", are you PROUD to be STRAIGHT?

Well, based on the simple fact that many people don’t think gay people should have the same rights as straight people and there are people who harrass and belittle gays for their sexual orientation, then yes. I’d say that many gay people are in a constant fighting mode against society.

I guess it is a question of what you can live with. I hope Gays get everything that they hope for and more. Most people would not have much to say after the fact.

Don’t call me a homophobe, I just see gays as very angry people when in a public forum. They are really cool in person.

Straight people haven’t been sent messages (subtle and blatant) that there is something “wrong” with the way they are. I don’t have 1st hand experience with homosexuality, but even I see the messages out there. It’s an abomination! Why would you chose to be this way! Fag! You can’t have civil rights! Matthew Shepard, and on and on and on… I guess when someone says they’re proud to be gay they’re really saying “to hell with the closed-minded haters, I am who I am, and I’m totally fine with that.”

“Don’t call me a homophobe…” Then don’t sound like one.

I know a lot of cool gay people. They are wonderful fun.

Also, I would think that there are some gay people who are ashamed of themselves. People are disowned by their families, shunned by their communities and denied the simple rights straight people are granted, just for their sexual orientation. I think many people (I know some) who wish they weren’t gay, just so they’d have an easier go at life.

Gay people are constantly judged for their sexuality and they don’t have the same rights as straight people.

Yes, I would say that they constantly need to defend who they are. I read “I am proud to be gay” as “I have nothing to be ashamed of, and I stand for who I am”.

Straight people are not under attack for their sexuality, so “I am proud to be straight” has no meaning.

Point well taken Oratio.

A real man is secure with his own sexuality and doesn’t need to defend himself in the face of Gay pride.

A suggestion to all the homophobes out there. Go hug a gay guy, it is quite liberating.

sap: What happens if i squeeze? Will i be “in trouble”? (:

But to answer your title q… I can’t say I’m proud to be straight. I just am. But I didn’t have to overcome any hurdles or fears or discrimination to openly be straight.

Great answer radar.

@Mr_Callahan Just be ready for what comes after thats all I have to say.

Yes. Homosexuals are under scrutiny, attack, being denied rights, ostracized from religious communities and victims of discrimination. I don’t know who this person is but if he feels proud, great for him since I’m very sure it’s not an easy road to out yourself.

I for one agree with the OP on this one, homosexuality is a trait no more worthy of pride than heterosexuality. I think it should go without saying that being proud of how you are different is not a good way to spread the message that being gay is normal.
I would advise the gay community to abandon the concept of “gay pride” and focus instead on “gay self-respect”.

I think “black pride” is similarly questionable, and the same applies to it.

And to counter any possible remarks that that’s easy for me to say: I’m high-functioning autistic and I disapprove just as much of “autistic pride”. Though perhaps that’s an unfair comparison, as that’s actually an official disorder.

I am a religious fella. I think it is wrong to hate anybody for any reason.

I believe that everyone should have the right to marry who they please and it’s a shame that we are not to that point yet.

Its a shame hate exists at all.

HHH: Adam Lambert is the next BIG star in Rock n Roll and was runner up in American Idol. He just confirmed what everyone believed which is that he is gay. He is a very talented young man, I wish him luck.

@Mr_Callahan I dare you to squeeze.

Well yeah it was obvious.

I’m very proud i wasn’t the person who asked this question.

@eponymoushipster Good for you. Feel proud for nothing.

@sap82: “I am a religious fella. I think it is wrong to hate anybody for any reason.”
I’m an atheist and I still think it’s wrong hate people. :)

@Fyrius Thats great. Lets be buds then.

I’m proud that I dont know what eponymoushipster means.

@sap82 High five.

@Fyrius The dynamic non-hating duo. lol.

@Fyrius Back atcha.

@sap82 Haha.
But we’re turning this thread into a chat room. I suggest we stop doing that.

You know you can edit posts, right? You could try putting more stuff in less posts, it’ll be easier to read than these one-sentence replies.

sap: Howbout a bumper sticker that says, ” I squeezed a gay today ”? That would bring love, peace and understanding for sure.

@Mr_Callahan Or a lot of angry Christians.

I wouldn’t say that I am proud to be queer, but I am not ashamed. When people say they are proud to be gay I think it’s like saying: no matter what others think, no matter how much they chastise or belittle, no matter the violence, disrespect and prejudicial treatment, I am not going to apologize for who I am, nor will I let others hold me down because of it.

Great perspective Tiny, I hear ya.

i’m seriously thinking @Mr_Callahan is the new LouisianaGirl on Fluther.

Does it hurt when you think epo? I do like girls from Louisiana and Louisiana hot sauce on my beef skirts. Hey, I made a funny, skirts and skirts.

@tinyfaery
Well, that’s good. But I don’t think the right word to describe that mind-set is “pride”. Pride is not defined as the absence of shame.
Being actually proud of something people hold against you, positively presenting it as a virtue rather than a neutral attribute, is only going to widen the chasm between the homophobes and the homophiles. The message you want to get across is that homosexuality is no big deal. Right?

It really isn’t a big deal. It is not stopping anything from happening. It will certainly shut a lot of people up. The world would be quieter.

I like being gay

@Fyruis—I think what is being presented as a virtue is the ability to not give a crap what idiots, bigots and homophobes think.

I like being straight but maybe if I were gay I’d like that even better….....thats where gayness starts I’ll bet. Shhhhhhh!

@Mr_Callahan heh. you have no idea what i’m referencing. now put the phone down, and pay attention. 3rd period starts in 10min.

K-epony, yu da boss fo now, Im tired, take over da klas.

@MacBean You are sounding awful hateful when you use words like idiots. Don’t misrepresent now.

Macbean: Those who claim they don;t care what idiots, bigots and homophobes think sure are vocal about what they allegedly dont really care about.

@Mr_Callahan No I have to throw a wrench in the gears. Why don’t you try it?

Do you have to use the word idiot?

Where are the mods at?

troll troll troll.

roll, roll , roll.

i suppose i am, it’s not something i spend too much time thinking about.
suppose being straight comes naturally to me

gay people may rage all they want against society, but they should keep in mind they risk alienating the moderates as well if they dont know when to keep their orientation to themselves.

Who is a troll?

Why does it have to be Gay pride? Why not just, “people deserving of equality”?
Fighting for equal HUMAN rights, is what it should be about. Otherwise, (be kind) you or others are just pushing your own agenda onto others. I say that with total respect.

@Joinni Why do you like being gay? Just trying to get you to expand for the benefit of the thread. :) Welcome to Fluther!

Whats a troll sap? I feel soooooo inadequate NOT knowing.

It means you are being shunned by the fluther for being to outlandish and rude.

sap: Should I apologize Or is that also outlandish?

@MacBean
In that case they would still be using the wrong words. That would not be gay pride, that would simply be I-am-able-not-to-give-a-flying-duck-about-your-self-righteous-bullshit pride.
Or maybe derision-proof pride would be a bit more catchy.

Also: Linguist pride. :D

@Mr_Callahan
Wiktionary is your friend.

Hey I think you are fine. The people that have been on the site longer tend to get a superiority complex sometimes. Pay no attention.

Your thoughts are just as valuable.

@sap82 = @Mr_Callahan?

Thanks for the Wiki thing Fyrius, maybe I do troll a bit for the dramatic responses, but thats my nature and personality, no offense is intended towards anyone. “To know me is to love me” , Ross perot used to say.

You’re welcome.

I have a new question to bring to the table. Some say homosexuallity is a who you are you were always homosexual. Others say it is a choice and they tend to jump to hateful conclusions from that. How about those that decide to try it late in life? Are they just waking up to who they were all along or did they genuinely make a choice at that point. Or did they just tap the always been bisexual and did not know it? Serious question folks.

@eponymoushipster No no. I am not a double.

Whats your problem epony? Why dont you try not being so rude and offensive and you may get whatever it is you expect from us. I’m game, baby.No ego trip going on here, amigo, JUST LOVE.

@Mr_Callahan Don’t go pointing fingers now. Turn the other cheek and all that. I’d respect you for it. (Thumbs up)

sap: I know a man who used to work on my muscle cars, body work, paint , etc. He is now like 70 and gay….wow what a shocker. I think he may have always been gay but just recently stepped out. I dont think any less of him, but I dont play with his torch anymore….ha,ha, just joking. Gay jokes are okay , right?

hahaha. never heard Adam say that. thats kinda funny though.. just cuz it sounds like he’s just being gay for the movement and he still feels like he’s under attack.. hmm thats true though.. why does the media make being Gay a scandal sometimes? Some religious ppl don’t like gays, and gays get hurt the most by them..?

great question,im still baffled.
ps. I’m proud to be straight. can I say that?

@sap82
Firstly, people who choose to become gay later in life don’t actually become gay, they become bisexual. (Semantics again, I know. I like semantics.)
Secondly, have you heard of the Kinsey scale? Most people are neither strictly hetero- nor homosexual, but somewhere in between. “Becoming” bisexual is then just letting one side grow.

Also, you seem a lot better at this “not hating people” thing than I am. :P

It seems as though 3 people are talking to themselves (besides Fyrius).

@Fyrius Thank you for the compliment my atheist brother. And no I have never heard of the Kinsey scale. I will look into that.

@jmah Care to change that trend?

Nah.

jmah: Three people in a conversation would constitute talking to “each other ”, not themselves.

@Fyrius I have looked into the Kinsey scale. It intrigues me.

What I mean is that the three people are all one (troll with multiple accounts. Just a hunch..)

@jmah Could you list these three individual. (No typo intended.)

jmah: Three accounts for one troll? Man, I can barely deal with this ONE, give me a break….I’m not that into this….or this into that?

My my, what happened here?

Given the post rate, it would at least have to be one guy with three computers. You can’t log in and out that quickly, and login information is (usually) stored by means of cookies, so multiple browser windows would all end up at the same account after every post or page refresh.
And considering that trolls tend not to like anything that’s a bother unless it delivers satisfactory amounts of drama to make up for it, I think assuming there really are three people here would be the more parsimonious explanation.

My two cents on the clone account conspiracy theory.

I had to look up ” parsimonious”, ....so i’m a humble scribe. Its quite a word and i think i’ll use it more often.

I hope I am not being branded a troll just because I have been asking questions. That would be a direct contradiction to everything the better half of humanity has been fighting for forever.

I’m not proud to be strait. I am what I am.

@Fyrius not with three browsers, or chrome running in Invisible mode. and @sap82 saying that s/he asked a question, when @Mr_Callahan actually asked this Q, only further proves the theory.

aside from that, if you want to chat, go to a chat room or IM each other.
@sap82‘s above comment, fwiw, is pure troll material.

[Non-mod says:] don’t chat in a thread.

@WhatThaF Sure, you can be proud to be straight. Why, though?

Is there a rule which prohibits chat on a thread or is this YOUR rule Epony?

Epony, I have been watching, trying to get a feel for this fluther community, and I’m not liking what I see. People like you are the reason why I left some other sites like this one. If I could be so kind as to make a suggestion that might be better for all parties involved, if you don’t care for Mr. Callahan’s questions do the community and yourself a favor and do not comment at all. Calling people a troll never solved anything before, its not nice to call people names for speaking their minds. Is this not a place we can ask whatever question is on our minds? If his questions upset you so, just simply pass them by. Life is too short to always be so negative. Let us exercise a bit of respect for each other.Do not take this as an attack but as some good advice instead.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury behold the opressor: @eponymoushipster. I have been enjoying this thread until now.

Pepsi.

(Cause Coke is just too sweet.)

@Fyrius Again thanks for that link to the Kinsey scale. Very interesting. I hope to thread on many more subjects in the future.

@emerald inflammatory questions don’t help the community, and thanks for the advice, person i’ve never heard of.

@Mr_Callahan – Fluther guidelines

That would be chatting sap, and ” chatting on threads ” is prohibited by the mighty powers that be.

i thought fluther was for questions…not chatting such as the two aforementioned users are doing.
@epony i agree with you

this has all gone off the question’s topic.
i’m proud to be what i am. though i’m not going to announce it to the world.

Epony: The only inflammatory that exists is YOU. Pour some water on yourself man.

@Mr_Callahan hahaha. ok. sure.~

read the guidelines

Amor: Birds of feather flock together?

@Mr_Callahan oh never mind.
i’m done. i put in my two cents and i’m out.

I disagree. We are still on the topic. The topic is oppression. I had question about homosexuality which I won’t lie, I need input about. So if my curiosity is being attacked I too am being oppressed and don’t appreciate it. @eponymoushipster Has no right to point fingers a cry troll. I am trying to learn from the question not cause problem. I call troll on @eponymoushipster

@sap82 hahaha. question flagged. have a good day, kids.

Yoooooooooz guyz !

i am not really sure what epony was talking about what question was flagged?

Epony just think of me as a “Guardian Angel” that you just might see more of.

Now that you made a mess of this thread and got everyone all upset, its not very nice of you to just up and leave that way…...not polite.

@Mr_Callahan Haha, congratulations on learning a new word. It always makes me happy when I learn one.
I was talking about the Ockham’s Razor kind of parsimony here.
Assumptions are conceived of (by the philosophy of science) as a liability, or an expense. The explanation with the least of those is thus the “cheapest”. And “parsimonious” is basically just a fancy word for “stingy”.

@eponymoushipster I stand by my judgement and continue to back it up with my second consideration. Making multiple accounts and using different browsers to chat with yourself is just too much work for too little fun. If I were a troll I’d rather spend that time for example taking all the bias out of the article about evolution theory on Conservapedia, and sticking [citation needed] tags onto everything. There are so many places where you can make people go completely apeshit with next to no effort.

@sap82 You’re quite welcome for the link.
I disagree with your later post, though – the topic is gay pride. We should stick with how narrowly the topic was originally defined.
(And @eponymoushipster means he reported the thread.)

[mod says] Chatting on threads IS inappropriate use of Fluther. Please discontinue and further chatty comments will be removed.

emerald: I still think it WAS a good thread. I learned a thing or two. Gay People: I love ya , but I wouldnt support a law that changes the definition of marriage as we know it in this country.
Peace and love.

@Fyrius You are right. It quickly went in that direction though.

” Give me chattery or give me death ”.

(In shackles walking my last green mile)

Mr. Callahan

Arguing semantics about pride or what not is irrelevant. All kinds of words have lost or changed meaning. Protesting the idea of gay pride seems a bit homophobic to me.

@tinyfaery
I’m gay myself I don’t don’t care, I can see where Fyrius is coming from.

I beg to differ. Arguing semantics is crucial and should be the foundation of any kind of discussion. (takes cover to evade thrown objects)
I mean it. You can’t effectively debate about anything until you get your definitions sorted out.
Regardless of the meanings that words have had and lost and acquired and lost again, the word “pride” has a widely accepted meaning now that is not in accordance with what you described.

I have given unchallenged non-homophobic reasons to oppose the concept of gay pride, and continue to propose that it be replaced by gay self-respect for a more constructive campaign of mutual tolerance.

I’m Dutch. We’re famously tolerant of and encouraging to gay people. I’m not an exception.
And please be careful that you don’t end up accusing anyone who says anything remotely critical of the gay community of being homophobic. The persecution card is an irrational and cowardly logical fallacy.

@Fyrius
Expressing ourselves through language is flawed, we use words based on how we feel about them words, rather than what they may be define as. If we used words exactly I would agree.

Edit: I would have to agree using the word proud as it’s defined. I’m still going to say I’m proud to be gay.

I’m proud I can(honestly) Say “I don’t really care” when people talk about their sexuality

Yes, gays are under constant attack from society. When California holds a referendum on YOUR civil rights, YOU might find the need to express that you are proud of your sexual orientation.

@Joinni
It’s true that definitions are usually a bit “fuzzy” and allow for some stretching (except in court and in the laboratory). And furthermore words are not usually deliberately invented and well defined and then put to use; it’s the language community that starts using words, and the dictionaries only describe which words people use how.
But that situation does not mean one cannot distinguish between usages that are common and accepted (and justifiably close deviations from those) and usages that are miles away from what everyone else always means when they use that word. The common usages are well documented in the dictionaries, making such comparisons rather easy.

“I’m still going to say I’m proud to be gay.”
Suit yourself.
But I’m still going to say that’s not very nice to us straight folk. If being gay merits pride, are we inferior for not having this virtue?
I’d almost start using the word “heterophobia”.

Oh, here’s another pet peeve just like gay and black pride. Nationalism. Same criticism applies. If you’re proud to be American, what does that say about the rest of us? What part of being born within the borders of any specific nation makes you inherently so much more awesome than us?

Upon reading this whole thread i came a way with a few interesting things and also some doubt. I firmly believe that ALL love is cool and you don’t choose who you fall in love with.

Having said that i find it curious that people hold on to phrases and movements that try to defy convention or change the state of affairs and thereby continue to attach a certain stigma to various lifestyles that at one point in time may or may not have been considered alternative.

I thought the whole point of becoming a more enlightened and tolerant society was to create a place where one can just exist without having to define oneself using antiquated and socially imposed labels.

The point is to be seen as PEOPLE not gay, straight, black, white, latino, male, female or something in between. WHO GIVES A CRAP? every person on earth is deserving of the same rights and respect… to continue with these outdated labels just highlights the underlying problem without solving it… if we continue to radicalize these things instead of accepting them as normal or commonplace we will never allow them to truly become part of who we are as a society.

I befriend and love PEOPLE… who they love, what they look like and who they vote for means nothing to me. I have many friends with same-sex partners.. and many friends with different sex partners… some have different skin tones.. some are conservative and some liberal…. they are all still my friends and all part of my life. Why should i try to compartmentalize them and classify them?

The goal here should be not to defend your stance or your label… not to have to show pride for standing against any form of oppression… the goal should be to just let everyone be. We are all the same and the few variations that exist between us are what make life interesting and give it flavor.. these things should bring us closer together.. not drive us apart.

Rant over

keeping HHH’s tradition alive: PENIS

@Dr_C That was very well thought out. I agree intirely. We are all people under the same sun.

@Dr_C: the problem is that for every person who sees gay people as PEOPLE, there’s at least one person who sees gay people as SUBHUMAN.

Being proud of being gay, and expressing that pride in public, is a way of saying “fuck you!” to people in the latter group.

Oh. Saying I am proud to be gay is about making straight people feel bad. Huh?
It’s always about straight people. Blech.

To me, this isn’t about pride so much as announcing that the gay community is organized and will no longer be marginalized. It (in my mind) bears a lot of similarity to the Black Power movement of the 60–70s (but less violent). Discrimination is all too common these days. Thus, despite the fact that many people are open-minded to all (as Dr_C noted), there remains a role for activism. In this regard, I wholeheartedly support the Gay Pride movement.

@tinyfaery: it’s always about PEOPLE, and the majority of people are straight.

@cwilbur: “Being proud of being gay, and expressing that pride in public, is a way of saying “fuck you!” to people in the latter group.”

And that’s exactly what’s not going to help integration.
The homophobes need to stop telling the homosexuals to repent or burn in hell, but so too do the homosexuals need to stop publicly declaring on behalf of all of them that the homophobes can go screw themselves. I think they’re just feeding the trolls that way.
A much better public acceptance campaign could instead be directed towards those who don’t quote Leviticus and wave signs at them. They’re less closed-minded, and probably the majority too.

@tinyfaery It’s about straight people just as much as it is about gay people. If you want equality, you will have to take the burdens with the privileges. One of those burdens is not being allowed to be a smug jerk to the people that you want to accept you.
How can you ask for respect without respecting those you ask it of?

You probably think it’s unfair that your side of the chasm to be closed isn’t allowed to repay the other side (that’s the homophobes, not all the heteros) in kind for what they’ve done to your side in the past, and maybe it is unfair. But the thing is, doing so is only going to aggravate this social problem.
(And I’m sorry, but I do believe it’s the LGBT community’s problem to solve. They’re the ones who would benefit from its solution. And politics are selfish like that.)

Very well put Fyrius, you have a talent for making something which appears complicated , well….......simple.

Why thank you. :)

I should add another point: saying you’re proud to be gay may be directed only towards the straight people who tell you you’re an abomination and all that, but it pits you also against the straight people who do not. By focusing on the distinction between “gay” versus “not gay” like that, you disregard the much more important distinction between “cool with gays” and “not cool with gays”.
Not that I think “gay-tolerant pride” is going to catch on, but I’m sure we’ll find a new slogan.

@Fyrius
I don’t care what they think and I will still go around and flaunt my gayness :)

@Fyrius: Actually, I think public displays of pride—both the nice young preppy men who happen to be gay, and the unassuming women who happen to be lesbian, as well as the radical faeries and leathermen and dykes on bikes—are far more likely to raise awareness that gay people are everywhere than sitting down and complacently trying to integrate will do.

The gay rights movement took a large step forward when a bunch of drag queens decided that instead of going along quietly and submitting to police harassment, they would instead riot. Equal rights are never freely given; they must be claimed and taken. It’s very easy for a straight person to say “sit down and shut up, and people will treat you well.” However, if you talk to gay people, you’ll find out that that never happens.

@Joinni
If by “they” you mean the gay bashers, then you have my full support and encouragement not to give a hoot and to let them bark up your tree until the cows come home.
But at the risk of sounding repetitive, if by “they” you mean all heterosexual people, I think you’re making a mistake. Please keep your disregard delimited to the people who actually deserve it.

@cwilbur
That’s a good point, as long as awareness needs to be raised to the fact that homosexuals are common and are to be taken seriously. And I think that as soon as that objective is accomplished, sitting down and trying to integrate would be the next step.

Don’t you think that time has come by now? I do think the issue has received recognition as a serious issue throughout at least the Western world.

@Fyrius
What do you want us to stop doing?

@Joinni
I would like you guys and girls to stop being actually proud of your sexual preference and to live up to the principle that homosexuals and heterosexuals are equal in rights and value.
I’d like you to replace gay pride with gay self-respect and gay happiness. I’m all for not caring what gay bashers say, but gay pride means you consider yourself better than everyone who is not gay.
There are a lot of us straight people who wish you all the best and fully support your emancipation and social acceptance. Please keep us in mind when the homophobes are waving signs at you. The dispute isn’t between homosexuals and heterosexuals, but between pro-gay people and anti-gay people.

The way I see it is the pride in something like sexuality or race has a function. Usually pride is for accomplishments, that’s what I always say: I’m not proud of something I didn’t do. But this kind of pride, this pride in something that you didn’t do serves a function. Black pride was formed as a way for black people to stick together because they were being discriminated against and were treated unfairly. The same goes for gay people. You may not agree that it’s the right word or whatever, but it is a way to stick together and show that you are not ashamed of who you are and are not going to be brought down by what is trying to bring you down. I personally am gay and I suppose I’m not really “proud” of it per se, but I don’t hate it or wish I was straight. I’m perfectly fine with being gay and I am not bothered by “gay pride”. I believe that it serves a purpose for it’s time and then will not be needed anymore.

People always ask “why isn’t there straight pride?” Straights don’t need pride, they’re not being discriminated against nor are they under attack. I just don’t see how being proud of being gay brings something negative. To me it seems just like a way for a group to show that they are standing strong.

I’m proud of who I am. It has nothing to do with my sexuality because my sexuality is not something I worked particularly hard for.

Also, to the OP: You said “who cares”. If you truly “didn’t care” you wouldn’t have posted this question.

Just because YOU think pride is about saying gays are better than, does not make it so, and neither will all of your bitching about the word pride. Dictionary.com has a few definitions for pride. Only one has to do with superiority. I’m sorry of you think gays are better than you. Poor you.

@tinyfaery @Fyrius

Pride: a becoming or dignified sense of what is due to oneself or one’s position or character; self-respect; self-esteem.

For me, that’s all “gay pride” was ever about. In fact, I believe that is what it is about. Where do gays assert that they are better than other people? It’s about having pride in yourself, about having self-esteem and feeling good about yourself.

Fyrius, to argue semantics, you talk of self-respect and yet that is an acceptable definition of “pride”. What is the problem?

When all people accept gay orientation without having to even give it a second thought, and think it is strange to even comment on someone’s sexual preference, then and only then will Lambert not have to mention the obvious, that they are proud of who they are. Until that day, it will be necessary to make a statement amidst the cacaphony of secretly homophobic people who may not even realize that they are sending mixed messages. It will take time. There has been progress, but still not there yet. Fortunately, younger people are a bit smarter on this issue, in my opinion. I would also postulate that in 30 years, there will be no need for the obvious.

As far as the second part of the question of being proud to be straight, I present my theory that it is simply not the same thing. Since those in religious groups, and many in the general public have had absolutely no discrimination towards someone who is straight, have thought of that as being the norm, see it as a correct lifestyle, the word pride could not be associated with what is just seen as the average way. One usually has pride in something due to a level of achievement. Being gay in a world that, in the past and even now in some circles, has not been accepted, takes some courage.And It takes guts, particularly in the past, to shout to the world that you are real, to be taken seriously, to be respected, and to be loved. Hence,this position of bravery in the face of discrimination should involve a pride in taking a stance of ownership of who you are. I do understand Mr. Callahan’s question as many think his way, so I give him the benefit of someone who reveals how they feel.. Only through questions and responses and dialogue and effective communication can this chasm of opinion be bridged. I hope that soon we can move on to the simple betterment of all humans, accepting our innate differences, and reaching out for common understanding.

@Fyrius
Integration? Who ever said I want integration into a heteronormative society? I do not

Again I agree with @dannyc. You are a welcome addition to the Fluther community and I am thankful for your input.

Even if someone disagrees with the majority, we have no right to bash or accuse someone of being a troll. We all know what trolls are and I’ve not witnessed any trolling here.

time to go fishing

@DominicX
I generally agree with you.

“I believe that it serves a purpose for it’s time and then will not be needed anymore.”
And with this part in particular.

By the way, is that you, Lelac?

@tinyfaery
Only one of the definitions on there has to do with superiority, you say? I think I can see another one or two.

– a high or inordinate opinion of one’s own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority, whether as cherished in the mind or as displayed in bearing, conduct, etc.
– the state or feeling of being proud.
– pleasure or satisfaction taken in something done by or belonging to oneself or believed to reflect credit upon oneself: civic pride.
– something that causes a person or persons to be proud: His art collection was the pride of the family.
– Pleasure or satisfaction taken in an achievement, possession, or association: parental pride.
– Arrogant or disdainful conduct or treatment; haughtiness.
– An excessively high opinion of oneself; conceit.
– The quality or state of being proud; inordinate self-esteem; an unreasonable conceit of one’s own superiority in talents, beauty, wealth, rank, etc., which manifests itself in lofty airs, distance, reserve, and often in contempt of others.
– A sense of one’s own worth, and abhorrence of what is beneath or unworthy of one; lofty self-respect; noble self-esteem; elevation of character; dignified bearing; proud delight;—in a good sense.
– Proud or disdainful behavior or treatment; insolence or arrogance of demeanor; haughty bearing and conduct; insolent exultation; disdain.
– That of which one is proud; that which excites boasting or self-gratulation; the occasion or ground of self-esteem, or of arrogant and presumptuous confidence, as beauty, ornament, noble character, children, etc.
– Show; ostentation; glory.

Or eleven.
Much repetition, but then this is Dictionary.com. And I wouldn’t be particularly inclined to give much credibility to the definitions of someone who thinks “one” means the same as “twelve”.
And then there’s proud :

– feeling pleasure or satisfaction over something regarded as highly honorable or creditable to oneself (often fol. by of, an infinitive, or a clause).
– having, proceeding from, or showing a high opinion of one’s own dignity, importance, or superiority.
– highly honorable or creditable
– of lofty dignity or distinction
– And I’m not going to copy-paste all the other entries. I should hope my point is made.

Every single dictionary entry on there for either word has a number of definitions that imply one feels some trait makes them better those who lack it. The usage I warn for is much more represented than the other one, in fact. It’s not something I made up.

There’s even a well represented definition that describes it as being arrogantly and unduly self-satisfied. I wasn’t even talking about this usage. (Because it’s obvious enough that the gay community wouldn’t mean to describe itself as arrogant and haughty.)
Any usage that portrays the object of pride as a good thing, rather than an okay thing one shouldn’t be ashamed of, supports my objection. And that’s nearly each of them.
(Furthermore, Wiktionary doesn’t even include any definition concerned with the egalitarian self-esteem that I do support.)

@tinyfaery, @DominicX
All right, so the word also has a sense that is harmonious with what I do support. The problem is that I do not think this is the dominant sense of this word.
I think this usage would be much better described by a term along the lines of “gay self-respect”. Nobody is ever going to misinterpret that.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir
An effect of a successful integration would be to make the society less heteronormative, of course.
And what else would you prefer to do? Gather in a shunned and secluded subculture?

Here’s another comparison. I wouldn’t dream of being proud to be an atheist, no matter how much my well supported world view is discriminated against. It’s not the sort of thing that it would make sense to be proud of. It’s not an achievement to adopt a world view with no gods in it.
(Even though I do wear a scarlet A.)

I would suggest any decent person to be proud of himself. Adam was likely of the same opinion and I think he wanted to express he is proud of himself and that his being gay is an integral part of his identity.

@Fyrius I agree with you.

Being “proud” to be something means you feel that you are better than the others. Though I don’t exactly agree with the “arrogantly and unduly self-satisfied” part, I do see it as showing superiority or achievement. Being gay isn’t an achievement or superior, and neither is being straight.

Instead of “gay self-respect”, how about “respect gays”? I’m pretty sure gays already have self-respect, what they want is respect from those anti-gay groups. They want to be respected by others and to have the same rights as any hetero.

Let me add, I’m all for gays having equal rights. If this is the land of the free, why is this still in debate?

I think “respect gays” would be a different issue. The concept of “gay pride” was invented because not all gays do (or did) have the self-respect they ought to have.

Gay respect is another thing worth fighting for, surely. But a different such thing.

And at the risk of being a troll, I doubt whether the USA really deserve to call themselves the Land of the Free, by the way. People generally seem more free to make up their own minds without any self-righteous theocrats looking over their shoulder here in the Land of the Clogs.

@Fyrius
But do you really think everyone knows the exact meaning of being proud?

I know we aren’t the “Land of the Free”, I just stated that since its in the national anthem. Good point on “respect gays” though.

@Fyrius

Yes, it’s me. I got tired of my old account, so I deleted that one and created another one.

@Fyrius
Yes, obviously, that would be the kind of integration I’d want, in an ideal world…but in reality, given history of the queer movement, all integration smells to me of is ‘proper adjustment into ‘normal’ society’ and giving up a lot of our goals, politically – many of us queer activists call that ‘slowly, no, don’t piss off the straight people’ path an assimilationist one and while, of course, I don’t want to live in a secluded subculture, I realize that intergation often leads to queer people being appropriated more and more into the way straight people should be (what houses to own, how to go about raising kids, etc.)

@Joinni
Yes, I do think that. Or at least the majority knows its exact meaning.
This is inevitably true for any word. The exact meaning of a word is determined by what the majority uses it to mean. Thus the only way for the speakers’ community at large to be unaware of a certain definition is if that definition doesn’t really exist in the first place.
But like I said, I believe the definition I use is the dominant one, which is to say it is the one most used.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir
I’m taken aback to learn that sexual preference determines one’s judgement of what house to own and how to raise children. Is this true? Do straight people and homosexuals really have completely different ideas about house ownership and child upbringing?
And here I was thinking homosexual people were just like us, except they happen to prefer to sleep with their own gender.

I’m going to stick with my incredulity until you convince me there’s really a connection. I just don’t believe being gay and buying this house rather than that one have anything to do with each other.
It seems to me on par with saying “us people with glasses just don’t like broccoli. Stop forcing your far-sighted vegetables on us, two-eyes!”

Don’t you think the very concept of having a whole homosexual culture is taking you entirely in the wrong direction? I mean, is everything that’s considered to be part of “the gay life style” really a direct result of being gay, or is it just something people invented so they could be different from the people they didn’t like?

@Fyrius well of course sexuality or gender identity shouldn’t matter in terms of buying a house but when you’re ‘normal’, all other status quo follows – example: the wedding industry is worth billions having straight people do it ‘properly’, now that some states allow gay marriage, the industry is after queer people that have to do the ‘same kind of wedding’ with little people on cakes and all that; our society accepts deviance only as much as it doesn’t pose any fundamental threats and I don’t think that’s right. I am not a part of any homosexual culture, there are some commonalities amongst queer people but we’re all also part of our society…the gay life style is something you see in the media, overblown, referring to gay white men with income

“Is it under attack?Are gays in a constant paranoid, fighting mode against society?”

maybe i’m reading this wrong, but where have you been, if you don’t see a reason for homosexuals to feel like they are under attack?
not only are there people who try to provoke shame in gays because of their sexuality, saying they should ‘convert’ to being heterosexual, but there are also plenty of violent people who do literally attack people for their sexuality.

and why not be proud of your sexuality? it certainly isn’t something to be ashamed of. homosexuals have faced a great deal of problems, just as any other group that has had prejudice dealt to them has, and i couldn’t think to condemn someone simply because they’re proud of themselves for being themselves, and not hiding because of public reaction.

@Fyrius: When ex-gay ministries are part of the lunatic fringe rather than something the mainstream considers legitimate; when people are not denied the right to determine their next of kin and heirs because the person so designated is of the same sex; when the risk of being fired from a job for being gay no longer exists: then, and only then, will there be no point in being openly and vocally proud to be gay.

The objective is clearly not accomplished—or did you miss the whole debacle over Proposition 8 in California? The civil rights of gay people are up for popular vote. Don’t you dare tell me that the way to fix this is to sit down and be quiet.

@tiffyandthewall
“and why not be proud of your sexuality? it certainly isn’t something to be ashamed of.”
The thing is, those aren’t the only options.
And pride and shame aren’t opposites, either. The opposite of shame is the absence of shame (self-respect), and the opposite of pride is the absence of pride (humility).

@cwilbur
Sounds like I hit a nerve…
I’m not saying the problem is solved. I’m saying the problem has acquired widespread recognition. And I believe you yourself said that was the main objective this gay pride campaign was to accomplish.
Well, maybe you’re right, and the time for being friendly and uncontroversial has yet to come.

There’s one more objection I raised against being proud to be gay, though. Gay pride encourages the wrong dichotomy, distinguishing the gay people from the straight people. Like I said, the dispute is between pro-gay and anti-gay people. And plenty of straight people are in the former group – and a number of homosexuals are in the latter.

P.S. Please don’t ask me never to take certain stances. I can’t promise that.

@Fyrius: When I’m told that I should sit down and shut up about an issue by someone whose involvement in the issue is theoretical rather than personal—by someone who has far less of a stake in the issue than I do, in other words—I get rather ticked off.

Understandably.

Please be patient with my naiveté, though. I’m just trying to help your cause, proposing ways that I think would be more effective.

@Fyrius well of course, but i don’t think people shouldn’t be proud.
there are a lot of things we take pride in that just ‘come with the package’, so to speak. not necessarily things we try for, but things that we just are. i’m content with being straight – not proud or ashamed – but i don’t think it’s bad to be proud, so long as you respect others. (:

At the risk of starting a tangent…
Reading through this thread again, I suddenly realise that the gay community and the atheist community both struggle with the same dialectic. Of course, they’re in the same situation in multiple ways; forbidden alternatives, now coming out of hiding after centuries of bullying by the dominant culture, finally rising up to face their oppressors. The similarity that occurs to me now is that both have much reason to be angry, but voicing that anger will encumber their cause. Supporters of gay right and atheism alike are in a position to be torn between unleashing their rage and reining their tongue.

…This is probably a useless remark. I don’t suppose anyone else here cares much about the future of atheism. I wanted to say it anyway.

@tiffyandthewall
I’m still not sure what to think of gay pride. Is it possible at all to be proud of a trait without considering those without it worse off?
Then again I have yet to figure out the rationality of pride in general. When is pride justified? I have so far found myself unable to find a rational and consistent criterion.

@Fyrius I care

As a homosexual I have felt that I need no special treatment. I think that I get no prejudice simply because I am gay. As a matter of fact, I know that I don’t I am not an extremely flamboyant person. Having gay friends, I have seen first hand that the only time they have been discriminated against for being gay was when they went to far. Hitting on a straight guy… or talking about sexual acts loudly in public.

I’m not saying that no one ever attacks a gay person because they are gay. I am saying, that 9 times out of 10..the gay guy did something to push the straight one over the line. I have seen it first hand. Rule #1: Those who want respect, give respect.

Lets face it, my kind isn’t good at giving respect.

@mowens well I’m so glad you’re speaking for all us queers…finally…now I don’t have to defend myself or demand equal rights…I can just explain it away by saying I have some inherent quality about myself that ‘sets straights off’ and ‘over the edge’...gee, problem solved In all seriousness, please reconsider your internalalized homophobia

@mowens

Have you ever considered that in many cases, the simple case of being gay “pushes straight people over the edge”? Have you ever considered that it’s perfectly fine for a straight couple to hold hands or even kiss in public, but if a gay couple does it it’s “shoving homosexuality down people’s throats”? I would say it’s more like 5 times out of 10, but even then, I have no way of counting since I do not have experience with every single one of these situations.

And yeah, speak for yourself.

Let me rephrase, I think I came off the wrong way, I’m tired and I have a way of over simplifying what I am saying to make my point when this happens.

I think that gay rights need to be fought for.

I think that gay rights are something that we as a group ( and the many before us ) have made awesome strides for.

I think that we as a group are a little discriminiated against, but some take the pressure and focus on ways to prove ourselves worthy of respect. Others, fold and act out in ways I don’t want to be associated with.

At our gay pride here, I saw too old guys wearing assless leather pants, and doing things that no one (straight or gay) should be doing in public. They weren’t the only ones. It was a very large group of men who were being very vulgar, and rude. They ruin so much for our cause by being so disrespectful to the world, by having sex in public places, then demanding respect from everyone because they deserve it.

I am proud of who I am. I am proud to call many gay people my friends. I am proud that I can comfortably say I am gay to everyone I know.

I am not proud of the loud, disrespectful few who ruin the gigantic strides we have made. That’s what I am talking about. I hold hands with guys in public all the time. Yeah, sometimes I do get made fun of. But it is never violent. I turn around, I say something, and thats usually the end of it.

My friends turn around and say things to egg them on! Something like… how about you let me hold your hand… or something about what they want to do to that guys junk. THATS what I am talking about. How can you lead someone on… then get pissed because they fell for the bait?

Believe me when I say that I think that gay rights do need to be fought for. I think that we have made excellent strides just in the past 10 years.

But…. change is slow. Nothing can happen over night. People need to understand that while prejudices are not fair, they are already there. We can’t just wave a wand for them to be gone. They have to learn that we are not the devil. Learning also doesn’t happen quickly.

I read over what I said, and I can see how it looks like I hate all gay people, and I hate myself for being gay, but that really isn’t what I meant… I was thinking on a different wavelength entirely, and in my head it made perfect sense. :)

@mowens there are stupid people of all sexualities…stupid queer people don’t make you look bad…only you can make you look bad…and if others judge you by those that wear assless pants, well then they’re the ass