Has feminism succeeded? Would the Equal Rights Amendment pass today?

I believe in equality, not feminism.

“Nearly”, “gaining”, “some”, “certain”.....those very words indicate, though progress has been made, we are not there yet. There is a lot of ground still yet to be made in equality, both in gender and racial regards. See ya….Gary/wtf

I work with about a couple dozen or so guys (ranging in age from 30 to 60) who would disagree that women are equal. Some of whom are managers.

It is evident in the way they speak about women (condecending, jokey, even disdainful).

So while the public face of gender relations may seem equal, in the corners of the US, in everyday life, sexism is very much alive.

@Syger What is it you think feminism is that you are not in favor of it?

@whatthefluther
@cprevite “Not there yet.” Where is “there” and how far are we from it? Also, how is the way men speak about women indicative of how far women have to go? Do you remember what women’s opportunities were 30 years ago? Would you say we have only come a small way from there in terms of attitudes and concrete achievements?

Women are not men, so women will never be equal to men, nor will men be equal to women. Both have their strengths and weaknesses.

Humans are constantly assaulted with information. We need some way to sort through this and make sense. We decided to categorize things and actions, and this is why we have stereotypes.

We will never stop. Women and men are different, they act different, and will always treat each other different.

@Zuma….Laws and policies may spell out equality, but as long as there are biases and prejudices in people making selections and decisions, things are just not equal. It will take time, perhaps generations, until such prejudices are broken down and eliminated. See ya….Gary/wtf

Ahem. Female circumcision, “Honor” killings, Dowry murders, clitoridectomy, infibulation, polygyny, human trafficking, domestic violence, domestic slavery… that’s just off the top of my head. What the fuck are you talking about?

It will have succeeded when women don’t have to wear makeup, bras, heels, perfume, control briefs, shave underarms and legs, style their hair and nails, and worry about fashion (and other women). Then they will be equal to men.

I doubt that many really want true equality. As my mother used to say, women who strive for equality lack ambition.

@pdworkin I was talking about the progress made in this country since 1970 where none of the things you mention were practiced then or now. What did you think I meant?

And why are all the people answering (except one) men?

@Zuma And why are all the people answering (except one) men?

What an opening (to a question of this nature) – I am so tempted – but I will restrain myself. Others might not.

@DarkScribe (just one more exchange before bed)

Does anyone really believe that women should not be the equal of men in every respect, that they should stay at home and be subordinate and deferential to men, or that girls should not have the same opportunities as boys? And, in this respect, hasn’t feminism succeeded?

Yes, there is the tyrrany of lipstick, but in the main isn’t the idea of equality accepted?

The issue should not have been biased on equality. That insecure drive to be “equal” to men is the problem. We all have the same ability to think and reason.

We have special qualities that are unique to our design. Women have an incredible responsibility and ability that men do not have.
Men are designed in a way to enhance that ability.

It is a symbiotic relationship that has turned into an experiment gone haywire.

@Zuma Yes, there is the tyrrany of lipstick,

The tyranny of lipstick – I like that – succinct.

Yes, most people accept that women should have equal rights, other than people like me of course. I believe that the “cream” of womankind is superior to the cream of mankind. (Luckily there isn’t really that much cream about.)

Well women are still paid less then men for doing the same job…

Perhaps we’ve made more progress on sexism that racism, but I think that there are analogies in the two areas. Just as we’ve made much progress toward racial equality but there is still racism, there is still a lot of covert and overt sexism in society. Yes, women are entering formerly male dominated professions and working outside the home, but what are ther not more support systems; like public day care centers for all parents? Why are women still being harassed (and worse) in the workplace? Why is it more worrisome in most cases to let your daughter walk home from the mall than your son? Why did LIly Ledbetter’s suit for equal pay get rejected multiple times until a law got past aboloshing time limits for suits on equal pay? Any why did 30 or more senators this week vote against a women’s right to sue the contractors who had gangraped her in Iraq?

Much work has been done, there is much more work to do….

@janbb why did 30 or more senators this week vote against a women’s right to sue the contractors who had gangraped her in Iraq?

If you are truly unbiased you need to look past the hyperbole and at the *law that they voted on. They voted to uphold law, not refuse an individual woman her rights.

@DarkScribe I’ve never claimed to be unbiased but I am open minded. I realize that it was a law they were voting on – that’s the way Congress works – but I will look up what it says and see if I have to modify my statement.

Thanks.

@Zuma You are quite mistaken when you say that none of the things I mention are practiced here. They certainly are, and they are discovered daily. The news media went wild with coverage of two women who were held as slaves by a Long Island couple who were eventually prosecuted for the crime just 3 years ago, and forced sexual trafficking is a daily scourge in big cities, including Toledo, where 14-year-old middle-class white girls are being kidnapped and made to service truckers on trans-national routes. What the fuck are you talking about?

All you need to do to assure yourself that women still have a long fight ahead of them is look into sexual assault rates in the military and the rate of women in the military with PTSD. Hint: Women who never see any fighting have higher rates of PTSD than men who have seen fighting, yet receive less care for it.

Edited to add: Here is a good place to start.

@pdworkin I will grant you that there is domestic violence and sexual exploitation of women and children occurs at the unpoliced margins of society, but female circumcision, “Honor” killings, Dowry murders, clitoridectomy, and infibulation? In the Sudan, maybe, or in some wierd ethnic enclave, but not “discovered daily” in the United States.

Domestic violence has been severely criminalized over the past 30 years, in large part due to the feminist movement. The fact that it still occurs does not mean that feminism has failed to have an impact. Attitudes toward domestic violence have changed. It is no longer considered a private matter. And, of course, human trafficking and slavery are also seriously against the law and are by no means tacitly condoned.

@Zuma: If attitudes towards domestic violence have changed, how come so many people blamed Rihanna after Chris Brown beat her?

The bill has been introduced in Congress every year and seems to fail every time. The answer seems to be, “No, it would not pass today.”

There is a big divide between polarized groups of people on this issue. Some, like you and me, believe that a citizen should be (is) equal in rights and all ways that legally matter, to any other citizen. However, there are also those who look around them and see the modern life we live as being evidence of “the feminization of men, the total breakdown of the family, tradition or morality, etc.” I mean, just look at those gay people wanting rights, kids in gangs, dinner not on the table at 5pm because Mom’s at work, – these are all symptoms of women feelin’ like they’re all uppity, ya know?

These are the states that still haven’t ratified the ERA: Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, Nevada, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Utah, and Virginia. Most of them are traditionally red, “family values” states which probably don’t see women’s rights in the same light that you and I do.

These also include states where old folks go to retire. Many of them still see things in old ways that are not as valid to younger folks like us. These are people who were in prime adulthood during the Leave It To Beaver, Father Knows Best 1950s. (Clitorectomy, legal or no, was sometimes still prescribed by doctors in those days – I have a relative who had it done to her as a small child in the 50’s as a cure for masturbation.) As those folks leave this world, I suspect that the ERA will eventually pass, just like some day, gay folks will be legally able to marry. It’s just not that time yet. But they can’t stop the flow.

@Zuma You remind me of the people who claim we are living in a “post-racial” society, while in the meantime white privilege is so ingrained that they can’t detect it because it’s just like oxygen to them.

We are far from living in a post-patriarchal society, and feminism has been bullwhipped down some pretty blind alleys.

@laureth: That’s horrible and makes me more than a bit queasy.

@pdworkin
I DIDN’T ASK IF WE WERE IN A POST-PATRIARCHIAL UTOPIA where nothing bad ever happens to females! I didn’t ask if we should declare “mission accomplished” on the status of women. I simply asked if the main idea of feminism has been absorbed—i.e., does anyone still really believes that women should not be fully equal with men?

Well, I’m sorry I asked, because what you are telling me is that women are virtually enslaved; that genital mutilation is widespread, and that they are all barefoot, bruised and pregnant under their burkas—not only has there been no progress over the past 30 years, but things have gotten tragically and unbearably worse. Their lives are nothing but unending humiliation and victimization. Why even bother thinking about something so depressing?!!

@Zuma Lots of people believe in fairy tales. I’m not telling you what to pretend. You are free to pretend that everything is hunky-dory. Have fun.

[Mod says:] Flame off, guys. Leave it. Back on topic. Civilly.

what is left to be done? So, so much.

@jackm no, this is simply not true
I exist in a community where we are men and women but we don’t go by what that’s supposed to mean and do NOT treat each other differently

@Simone_De_Beauvoir
So you are saying your men don’t have penises and your women dont have vaginas? Youre saying that your men and your women react exactly the same to certain stimuli?

I don’t think thats physically possible.

@jackm you weren’t talking about physical stimuli, you were talking about treating others differently…generally speaking arguments of differences between men and women always dilute down to physical differences and genitals…just like you did…and I am saying the genitals are irrelevant

I am saying women and men are physically and mentally different. They always will be, and always should be treated differently.

@jackm well there are no ‘shoulds’ in my world…and as I’ve said we, as a group, disagree

@Simone_De_Beauvoir
How do you treat men and women the same in your group?

@jackm well seeing how many of us reject gender roles and identify as gender non-conformist or gender queer or transgender, we treat each other as individuals, making no judgment or stereotype based on what men and women are thought to do…in my marriage, there is no such thing as ‘you do this because you’re a guy’ kind of talk..ever

@Simone_De_Beauvoir
Do you find yourself having to fight the notion to treat men and women differently?

@jackm can you elaborate on that, please? do you mean internally? it’s not hard for me to not treat people differently because of gender…I treat them based on other characteristics, like their character or intelligence

@Simone_De_Beauvoir
You never think, for example, that a woman would respond differently to a joke you made than a man?

You never find yourself treating someone you are interested in sexually different than someone you aren’t?

@jackm what I am aware of and what I do think about in terms of jokes, for example, is how women reared in the West would respond…differences are socialized, that’s all…same for ethnicity and race and class…as a sociologist, I consider all these constructs when I think about how people will respond to me…I just don’t believe them to be inherent…as for your second point…of course I treat those I’m interested in sexually differently from those I don’t want to sleep with…but it has nothing to do with their sex or gender…as I’ve been with romantically and sexually with people of both of the major sexes and genders and have found myself attracted to plenty of transgender people…and actually, I find myself more attracted to people who don’t fit any gender

I don’t see how treating people differently is an issue unless you treat some people as lesser than others, and do so systematically across gender.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir
So you acknowledge that you treat people you are attracted to sexually different, and most people are only sexually attracted to the opposite sex. Thus, most people will treat the opposite sex differently.

@jackm yeah, really don’t get how you made that connection…most people treat those they are attracted to differently because they’re attracted to them, not because it’s the opposite sex…they can also treat the entire opposite sex differently, even if they’re not attracted to all of the representatives, because of the learned ideas they gained from parents and society about that sex

@Simone_De_Beauvoir
To the average person, there is a group of people we could have sex with, and there is a group of people we couldn’t have sex with. As humans we will of course treat these two groups differently.

@jackm yes, I see what you’re saying…but on an average day, you shouldn’t treat a man and a woman differently just because one falls into a category you usually are attracted to…I feel like you and I are agreeing with each other but just talking about two different things

@Simone_De_Beauvoir
I am not saying that women should be treated as inferior to men, or vice versa, I am just saying it would be very hard to have society treat them exactly the same. It may work in small cases like the group you live in, but you must recognize that its pretty extreme to do so.

@jackm I certainly recognize that my wanting gender norms to go away would be a radical change for society, I also recognize that it would be a good thing for many people…here’s what: people can adhere to whatever gender norms they want..they just shouldn’t expect anyone else to…and people that don’t adhere to society’s gender norms and expectations shouldn’t be made fun of, discriminated against, or killed

@Simone_De_Beauvoir
Well I can agree with that.

The ERA, though, isn’t about treating people differently in emotional ways or based on attraction. You could never effectively encode that in law. It’s about things like equal pay for equal work. If a male and a female accountant get the job done in the same correct way as efficiently as each other, their genitals should not affect their pay. They should not have different rights when it comes to things like due process, free speech, etc.

This is the text of the Equal Rights Amendment:

Section 1. Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of sex.

Section 2. The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

Section 3. This amendment shall take effect two years after the date of ratification.

You may decide to treat people differently based on their gender, but they shall not have different rights.

I think feminism has taken things slightly to the other side, but they’ll balance out eventually, we’re just caught in the middle for now. It’s like Voltaire once said about the bent stick, and France eventually got a stable democracy in the end, even though a lot of innocent people were killed in the process. So I guess we’ll just have to be patient for another generation or two before we see true equality (and the males among us just curse our bad luck for being born 30 years too late/early).