What do you think about this situation regarding charity?

Yeah thats totally right.
Lets save money so your kid doesn’t have to get a job, rather than helping sick people.

Jobs build character, as does overcoming obstacles. Charity & Church > Paying for an adult’s education.

Just to clarify I am not saying a child should not have a job, I am very in favor of children working, starting in high school, but paying for 100% of a college tuition and living expenses seems overwhelming. Like I said, there is a happy medium I think.

Yeah, but still. People are too spoiled these days, anyway. And I doubt that the sick people that need the charity can’t go out and pay for all of their medical bills.

So I’m in favor for college lad to get his job on :P

@pinkparaluies He is in his late 40’s he was in college 25 years ago. He was never spoiled, his family lived very modestly, and were all hard working.

”Eventually he was talking about social programs and started to say that he was never given anything, never expected anything from the government;”

“This morning I was awakened by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the U.S. Department of Energy.

“I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility.

“After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC-regulated channels to see what the national weather service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like, using satellites designed, built, and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of U.S. Department of Agriculture-inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the Food and Drug Administration.

“At the appropriate time, as regulated by the U.S. Congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the U.S. Naval Observatory, I got into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration-approved automobile and set out to work on the roads build by the local, state, and federal departments of transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issed by the Federal Reserve Bank. On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the U.S. Postal Service and drop the kids off at the public school.

“After spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the Department of Labor and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, enjoying another two meals, which again do not kill me because of the USDA, I drive my NHTSA-approved car back home on the DOT roads to my house, which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and fire marshal’s inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police department.

“I then log on to the Internet, which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration and post on freerepublic.com and Fox News forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can’t do anything right!”

Oh wow.. If hes 40.. then he’s on his own lol

@pinkparaluies I think you are missing the point. He is not talking about going to college now.

I think you were in the right in what you said, @JLeslie. I think most people would love to be able to give to charity, but if it’s keeping your own family hungry or out of college, then maybe you should realize what’s really most important.

And anyway, people on the left generally are of the stance that “charity” can be more efficiently and effectively organised and administered by government agencies. Case in point, while the US still has massive poverty that the private charities can only superficially address, the more left oriented European countries have social security systems that deliver better results and reach a lot more people.
People on the right seem to consider governments as a necessary evil that is constantly after their lives and wellbeing, while people on the left see government as a welcome and potent tool to administer the people’s will and to ensure the collective wellbeing of society.

Family first, then everything else. One day he may have to take care of his parents, don’t you think his parents would want him to have a job to make enough money to support them one day?

Of course, there are other ways of giving to charity, it doesn’t have to be your own hard-earned cash when you have a family to support (or whatever).

I suppose giving money is just easier than actually doing something, or if you can’t spare the time.

Anyway, I think you’re right, family should always come first.

“Charity begins at home.”
Helping ensure that your child can attain higher education is a win-win… it benefits your kid; and it benefits society, since it increases the odds that he will have a decent job and better be able to support himself and his family (not to mention paying more tax dollars).

@JLeslie

I agree that proportionate giving is always possible, permissible, humane, the very definition of being human, could be coin or caring, private or upfrontpersonal, admirable, honorable,brave, humbling, uplifting, viral with each of us being the initial vector.

If one does not want to participate in this most human activity or insists on great fanfare for himherself for a charitable act then part of you is temporarily dead. It is always possible to miraculously recover from this dreaded killer disease.

Just give of yourself !

I, too, have heard that about Republicans giving more to charity. Not sure if it is verifiable or not; if so, I would agree that it is probably an outgrowth of their mistrust in government and the Democrats’ greater support for so-called entitlement programs. It may also be that they are more likely to associated with structures, such as churches, that encourage giving. I don’t believe that Republicans are inherently more compassionate than Democrats.

As for the second part of the question, I think it is necessary to provide for the needs of your children and family before giving to others. Not a flat screen t.v. or computer in every room certainly, but I do think parents should help kids with college as much as possible. We paid for most of our children’s college basic expenses and they worked for their books and extras. For grad school, I told them they were on their own.

As an aside, I wonder if that is really true about Republicans giving more or just a Limbaugh/Beck factoid.

Republicans give “more” because they have more to give? Stereotype, I know.

@virtualist I am goung to guess that when you write part of you is temporarily dead you mean the third person you and not me directly. College is just 4 years, I’m not talking about never giving. I am talking about prioritizing.

If you don’t want to be dependent on others, including the government, then getting an education might help one accomplish this. The saying “charity begins at home” someone used before is to avoid the need for charity yourself later.

@Beta_Orionis I asked the same thing during the discusion, if the stat he read included the aggregate incomes of Dems vs. Republicans, or if when they say Republicans give more was that a percentage or a total $ number or what? He didn’t know the answer.

Family always comes first. Charity is important, but in giving to charity you should not make yourself or your family a charitable case. Education is particularly important, as it allows for far greater future income and some of that disposable income can go to charity.

Just out of interest, why doesn’t the USA have HECS? It seems all wrong to pay up front for an education, so only the middle and upper classes can get a proper education.

@FireMadeFlesh what is HECS? I agree it is awful that our university level education is so cost prohibitive, it does favor the middle class and rich. There are scholarships available for lower income, but people fall through the cracks for many reasons. Some of the availability varies by state. I think my father would have never received his college degree, or would have had to get it much later in life if he was not able to get free education in NYC. I don’t know if NYC still has this available.

@JLeslie I don’t think City College is still free but I think it is quite reasonable. My Dad went there too.

@FireMadeFlesh If HECs are college funding programs, some of the states do have tax-free savings programs for instate tuition, but college expenses keep increasing ahead of inflation. It is very hard to fund.

Personally, I am in favor of taking all of the money allotted for Head Start and put it into higher ed and vocational programs. In case you are not aware Head Start is a US program aimed towards pre-k. I think it is a waste

Yeah, 25 years ago, tuition was $900 a semester for an in-state school. You could get all the way through four years with $10,000 of debt. An entry level job paid $16,000 a year. In-state tuition here is now $3000 a semester, and the same entry level job is paying $24,000 a year. 25 years ago, there was no internet, computers , or cell phones. The average cost for a brand new car 25 years ago was $7400.

I don’t think this makes me a bad person, but if I only have enough to send my child to college or give it all to charity, I’m going to send my son to college and worry about charity later. I can always volunteer my time and effort towards helping others, money does not equal the best type of charity. Frankly, I think I’d enjoy it and find it more gratifying to volunteer at shelters or whatnot.
I’m not saying parents have to pay for their childs college education, but in my family..that’s just what you do. You help they obtain loans, and help out in any way possible. Even extended family chips in when they can (like Aunts and Uncle, and grandparents) I currently get by on grants, but I know I could always turn to my parents if I need them to help me get a loan or help with books. My parents are extremely liberal (wouldn’t call them democrats though)

@JLeslie I don’t know about the efficacy or not of Head Start, but as someone working with community college students, I feel we need to put a lot of money and effort in to pre-school, elementary and high school education. By the time kids with poor skills get to college, it’s awfully late.

Here is an interesting statistical analysis of the data used as the basis of the assertion that republicans give more to charity than liberals. The analysis supports the assertion as true, based upon the data presented.

I personally have done what it takes to enable my children to get out of undergrad school without debt, and continue to subsidize certain expenses, like car insurance and cell phone to make sure they can stand on their own two feet. Once they decided to move off the family phone plan, or can afford to get a new car, they’re on their own.

I donate more to charity than Sarah Palin, on half the income.

@JLeslie So, I went looking for statistics, and found a book entry that looks at Michigan’s democratic donations as a percentage of the Republican donations, both adjusted for income and not, and Republicans still seem to give more often (although it’s a very small sample size.)

Somewhere else, someone mentioned that one thing the studies always overlook is the percentage of individuals who work for non-profits and charitable organizations and thus donate their time, but do not count towards the monetary donations.

Donations to religious entities [wherein I mean Churches] also make up the largest portion of charitable giving, which might skew the statistics in favor of conservative giving.

@PandoraBoxx Found that too, but the analysis suffers from much fallacy. Mainly, it generalizes based on how whole states vote, not on the actually contributions from individuals, so even if democrats account for the majority of donations, if the state swings red, it gets counted toward republican giving.

I wonder how much of church contributions are actually charitable and not “operational costs” for the church? There is a certain amount of church tithing that has more in common with club dues than with charity.

The idea of “why does someone else free get a free ride through college while I don’t?” is a myopic view.
Your friend only saw someone who had a scholarship while they themselves had to work. Your friend doesn’t have the whole picture from that limited interaction with them.

Those who have more money will of course donate more, but what about the percentage of their incomes that they donate? That will probably be considerably less then those who make less money.

As far as giving to your own before giving to others, well, I don’t necessarily agree with that, especially if your own family has had privileges.

I left home at 17 and have received NOTHING from my family since. I paid my own way through two college degrees. I not do expect anything from anyone else, but I believe in helping others.

The way I see it is that Republicans tend to give money and think nothing more of it. Democrats are more likely to give time and other non-monetary things to help their communities. Surely donating time to work at a soup kitchen, volunteer to play with kids at a homeless shelter, or do things is just as valuable, if not more so, than throwing money at problems.

So yeah. Democrats might give less in one way (not confirmed), but give more in others.

First in regards to Republicans being more charitable I think this has a lot to do with socio-economic status. Republicans tend to be from higher socio-economic backgrounds and thus can give more freely of their money. Whereas democrats tend to be from lower socio-economic backgrounds and may not have that choice.

Second in regards to donating to a church vs. a college education. This is a value judgment. It seems like the judgment being made is that education is more important than the church. First let me digress and say that someone from a lower-economic status can go to college even if their parents don’t save up for them, financial aid helps with just that. Now back to topic. For many people their Church is not just a place of worship but where they have their activities, where they get their charity, and their support group/extended family. Someone may see more value in donating to those causes so their child can grow up well-adjusted and fed properly vs. an education. You may think that is a poor value call but others would disagree. It is all a matter of where you place your values. And another argument would be that for some people living in the present is all that is available to them (vs. saving for the future).

I say props to anyone who donates to charity whether it be with money or time. As long as their kids aren’t suffering I am not going to judge how they choose to spend their money.

The obvious reason that Republicans donate more than Democrats is that the average income for Republicans is greater than for Democrats.

@janbb I agree that High School should be included. I should have put that in my statement. Way more children are dropping out of High School than elementary school, so lets put the money where it can help students stay interested in school and be prepared for life after high school whether it be college or going directly into the workplace. There have been several studies showing that head start does cause certain test scores to go up K-2, and then by 3rd grade it all evens out again. I really don’t think it matters if you learn to read at age 4 or 6. My personal experience is I started kindergarten at 4 and there are kids who start at 6, I don’t think it matters when you get to age 15, do you? My father did not learn to read until 3rd grade as I mentioned, my exboyfriend learned in 5th, they both read and write well. My father actually has his PhD. What happened for him was NYC had some great school programs at the time, and especially by High School he was able to take interesting classes in an excelerated program and graduate early. My mother and I also graduated early from High School; I am big on this option for students. Many children can do the work, but hate school, or hate high school for many reasons, social pressures, boredom, and they should have a path to graduate early with a diploma if they will do the work necessary.

@all As far as Dems vs. Republicans, I kind of don’t care about the statistic, although I do appreciate the links you provided because I was very curious about the numbers and wanted to be able to speak to it when people bring this up, but when I say I don’t care I mean why are the republicans pulling, or manipulating this number? They are trying to prove they are better at giving? They are being defensive when it is not necessary, I don’t think liberals are saying the republicans don’t want to give. And I have to say giving to church would have to be dissected for how much goes to the church and how much to help others for me to give it any credence. And, that they are going by the electoral college is just stupid, if I am understanding how the statistic was surmised, because if you look at the map during the Obama/McCain election the Democrats are all of a sudden going to be way ahead on charitable contributions.

Most disturbing to me, and I have said this on other threads, is how there seems to be the message that education makes you elitest and bad according to some in the Republican Party. I know it is not what the majority of Republicans think, but when you are not educated and you can grab onto this, it makes you feel better about yourself, instead of wanting better for you and/or your children.

I think that is what it is all about, feeling good about yourself. Republicans don’t want to be told they don’t want to help people, because they know they do; just like Democrats don’t want to be told they don’t have family values.

@The_Compassionate_Heretic I think maybe back then they were getting money from the United Negro Fund, so he perceived this as discrimination. I also question giving money based on race, although I am for people helping their own communities, so I have never been able to reconcile this in my mind.

Not all charity has to be given in the form of money. Doing volunteer work for charitable purposes can easily fullfill a person’s responsibility, while still leaving money to help out their family. It does not have to be ‘either/or’ to work.

@RedPowerLady I am not making a judgment church vs. college. In fact my example in the original question was give to St. Jude’s or help their son with college. Certainly both causes are noble, I obviously would opt to give to my sons education and less to other charities. The thing about church is I don’t necessarily count it as charity when it is going for “activities” because it is the same as paying to be on a sports team or renting a park for a picnic, these are not truly charitable endeavors by my definition, rather you are paying for it to be organized and the use of the grounds. It’s a business.

Maybe the stats are true, maybe educated dems are less likely to give to charity, but maybe it is also true they are going to be the ones finding the cure for cancer.

@JLeslie and @janbb HECS is the system we have here in Australia, where every citizen can go to university at the expense of the government for up to two degrees and pay back the debt out of their salary once they are qualified and employed. I am finishing my second year of uni and haven’t paid a cent yet. There are incentives to pay during study, I think it is a 20% discount, but most students wait until they are qualified to pay it back.

@FireMadeFlesh we have both federal and private loans, which tend to be very low interest, to help pay for college. So I guess it is similar to what you have. I come from a family that would prefer not to have a debt loaded onto a new graduate, but certainly if someone is not able to afford the tuition up front it is a great option.

i would take care of my family first and if anything is left over i would give to charity. i throw a few bucks at charities here and there, but in general, being a single mother, i need the money i make for taking care of us. i cannot see not taking care of my daughter’s college education (or at least helping her out as much as i can afford) and instead giving to a charity. that’s just me. btw there are ways you can look at how charities are rated – i think one site is charitynavigator.org or something similar. you can see that there are many charities where the top administrators make over $100,000 a year. i would be against giving to a charity where the top person makes that much money. many people are against PETA and their weird promo tactics but the President of PETA, Ingrid Newkirk, only gets paid about $40,000 a year. how she lives on that i don’t know. anyway, i have more respect for a charity like that than one where they administrators milk it for all they can and then cry poverty.

It was his mother’s money and it was her choice how to spend it. We do not owe our children a free ride through college. It’s nice if we can do it if we want to, but it is not a requirement.

My parents paid for one semester. I paid for the rest through student loans, taking breaks to earn money by working full time and taking as many classes as possible through community college. I can tell you I damn sure appreciate what it took to get my degree.

@JLeslie First off let me apologize for getting confused. I certainly messed up St. Judes charity with a local church.

Second I say we must agree to disagree. I really feel that someone donating money to any charity vs. their child’s college education can be understandable. If it were food on the table vs. a charity I might have a different opinion. It seems as if the son himself created values that didn’t allow him to get financial aid and thus he had to work. I don’t judge that but I’m saying this is all a matter of personal values. Just as personal values made his mother choose to donate to her charity of choice vs. save up for her son’s college education. I think the fact that a low-income individual would choose to donate to charity shows personal integrity and not lack of character.

As far as church activities go. I would say that when someone donates they are not donating to the activities. They don’t have to pay to attend the activities either. They donate to the church as a whole. One service the church provides is activities. I feel that is still in line with charity.

Also I am confused how this quote has anything to do with what I said?? Perhaps clarify?? Maybe the stats are true, maybe educated dems are less likely to give to charity, but maybe it is also true they are going to be the ones finding the cure for cancer.

It’s hard to believe if the “friend” is from a middle class family that he didn’t receive some educational subsidy, the thres,hold for grants is pretty high,not to mention free K-12 education. If his family could afford private K-12 and he wasn’t eligible for some college heip, his family had more than a “little” money,

Also all charitable donations are not equal. A tax deductible donation that includes entrance to a society event and most of the donation goes to party expenses is not the same as someone who just writes a check. And a donation to the symphony is not the same as a donation to St. Jude’s.

@JLeslie I hadn’t heard of that, seeing as you always hear Americans referring to their college fund. Does everyone automatically qualify, or are there standards you have to meet?

@RedPowerLady Easily confused, if you read quickly St. Judes could be a church and we did talk about churches in much of the thread. I don’t know what it was like to get a student loan back then? I think you make an excellent point about his values regarding money, but where we might slightly differ is I don’t think he wouldn’t take help, I think he didn’t want to have a debt if I had to guess. I am exactly like him in this regard.

Regarding the church donation, I agree that you donate to the church as a whole, that is why I would want church donations dissected before deciding how much of the total money should be counted towards charity. Of course all charities have administrative expenses, I am not saying to weigh them more harshly than other charities, but to make things equal.

My statement about the cancer research was obnoxious, but what I was saying is if you don’t value higher education, you aren’t going to wind up being a cancer researcher. Not that everyone has to be a cancer researcher, but I am tired of hearing about how educated people are elitest, it is total BS. There are snobs everywhere in every socio-economic level. There is irony in the idea that my friends mother valued paying a hospital who spends most of its time reseraching childhood cancers, but doesn’t see her family as having the possibility of being one of those researchers. Did I explain it better?

@galileogirl He went to public schools k-12, that is how he had black friends who he knew went to college without paying (in Memphis, it is fairly segregated, white kids with any money go to private school, that is why he was at the public school which was ¾’s black at the time) his parents had very little money, they were not middle class. He is middle class now as an adult.

I agree all charities are not equal.

@FireMadeFlesh I am not sure. I did not use loans to pay for college, my parents paid. II would be interested to know also. Maybe someone else of the threas would know. I did find this link http://www.salliemae.com/

@JLeslie Then he had 13 years of free education, right. His complaint is not that some others got subsidized education but that they got MORE than he did. BTW he coildn’t have known but only assumed comparative financial status.

@galileogirl good point.

@JLeslie There is irony in the idea that my friends mother valued paying a hospital who spends most of its time researching childhood cancers, but doesn’t see her family as having the possibility of being one of those researchers. Did I explain it better?

That was a lot more clear. Thank you for clarifying. That is indeed ironic. Perhaps being from a low-income family she didn’t even realize that a college education was something her son would strive for. I grew up in a lower-economic stratus and I say the number of adults who even thought college was an option for their children was very very slim simply because they never knew anyone who went to college, it just wasn’t part of their framework.

@RedPowerLady I agree with your point, college may not have been in his mothers mind at all, but then he decided to go, and she gave money away instead of to his education. My father’s mother wanted my dad to go to work and make money to help her buy some new furniture, but he defied her and went to college. This wound up being a rift between them for a while. My grandmother did not have any money to give away or give towards education, she did not see the value in him getting an education when they needed money to have basic things, my father grew up VERY poor, barely with shoes on his feet. His mother was limited in her view of the world. But his college was free luckily, and he did what he believed was right for himself, which worked out.

Both examples, my grandmother and my friends mother, are people not understanding what the world has to offer because of their limited view. I’m not trying to gang up on them, and I know many many people who do not have a formal education who are very successful, college education is not the end all be all. I was just wondering where others stood on the issue, what they would do and how they value education vs charity.

@JLeslie

I was just wondering where others stood on the issue, what they would do and how they value education vs charity.

I know your not trying to gang up on anyone. I was just expressing my viewpoint. That I can see how someone would make such a decision.