Social Question

Captain_Fantasy's avatar

Is there a name for being prejudiced against people suffering from depression?

Asked by Captain_Fantasy (11431points) February 24th, 2010

Do you know anyone prejudiced against people with depression?

Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

111 Answers

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

Assholes? I know people who are misinformed about what it’s about or how one can get themselves out.

gailcalled's avatar

Sometimes if you are living with someone with chronic depression, you can get testy or short-tempered. But I have not seen any prejudices.

SeventhSense's avatar

Yes TIRED. Tired of the insufferable medicated masses. Don’t get me wrong. There are many people who genuinely need medication but there are countless others who can’t seem to accept that life is difficult and they are just not that important. Things often don’t turn out well and that’s life. I heard a comedian talking about the folks who lived through the depression and what they went through. Furthermore what they accomplished to transform this country.

“Hey Bob. I just can’t work today on this (intercontinental railroad, highway, dam, bridge, interstate) I’m just too depressed”. There would have been a swift “Shut the fuck up and pick up the shovel, pick, paint brush, trowel etc,” “We’ve got work to do”. The problem is that there are far too many people coddled and told that their feelings are far more important than what they are. Feelings are important but they are just feelings. Life is about more than us and more than our feelings.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@SeventhSense I agree with you. However, people are influenced by doctors, media, big pharma to accept that medication is the only answer, a quick fix and that it’s not going to have any effects on ‘em.

tinyfaery's avatar

Simone took my answer.

We can make up a word. How about crazyphobe or a happy moodist?

SeventhSense's avatar

We’ve been programmed to reach for a pill too quickly. The same bunch that would have been selling us Health Tonic with opium a century ago are now selling us Cymbalta. And WTF is with all the medication commercials. It’s ridiculous. It’s like they are manufacturing illnesses to sell us drugs.

Captain_Fantasy's avatar

Surely SOME people have legitimate medical conditions.

I completely agree with the idea that Americans are over medicated because it benefits the makers of those drugs.

However the intent of the question is geared towards people who have serious depression, not people who are bummed out and decide they need medication because their divorce is messy.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@SeventhSense well, that’s exactly what it is.

Ria777's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir: so speak out about it, not just on Fluther but face-to-face. I do. another aspect of this has to do with shifting blame for numbness and sadness away from social conditions and onto “conditions”. with sixty hour work weeks of course people will feel terrible. if they work jobs with no clear use (other than make money for themselves and others—I mean the difference between working in a shoe store or marketing shoes versus making shoes or mending them) then of course that contributes to alienation.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@Ria777 I agree that there could be a lot more introspection going on but it’s to the benefits of the systems that run us that we don’t spend much time on thinking about the real causes of society’s ills. And I have spoken out about it – I’ve written papers and papers on my own struggles and led some Anti-Paxil actions when in college.

SeventhSense's avatar

@Ria777
Well that’s true. We do nothing to address underlying conditions but just add to collective ways to push them under the table. That same man in the post WW2 world could by hard work pay his bills, own a home and have a healthy retirement. That same goal is far outside the world of many no matter how hard they work. They’ve given up hope of being able to live the American Dream and they’re told to take a pill and just relax.

Ria777's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir: the “systems that run us” don’t have minds. no one particular caused this. a number of factors connected variously with capitalism, materialism and disillusionment as the western world lost faith in a lot of old values and had no replacement. (the philosopher Ken Wilber’s theory of boomeritis talks about this. I really urge you to look into it.)

tinyfaery's avatar

So no one knows the term, huh?

Ria777's avatar

@Captain_Fantasy: Surely SOME people have legitimate medical conditions.

you believe that because people have said that and said that and said it since before you could talk. a book came out recently called Manufacturing Depression by Gary Greenberg. according to it, the mass-marketing of it came about because of a new class of psychiatric drugs with no obvious use. the need to sell the drugs spurred one marketer to influence psychiatrists to have a use for it, he popularized “depression” and it really took off.

as I said before, rather than individual people addressing their own problems and needs and doing something about them and rather than western civilization breaking down and reforming into something better (which partly happened in the aftermath of the ‘60’s, though not enough), we attribute alienation and ennui to a “disorder”.

Captain_Fantasy's avatar

So bipolar disorder is manufactured by the drug makers?

Ria777's avatar

@tinyfaery: I take it @Captain_Fantasy meant it rhetorically. no such term exists anyway.

DominicX's avatar

@SeventhSense has said what I’ve been too afraid to say on this site ever since I first got here. I’ve also never really been able to articulate it, so thanks for that reply and GA to you.

As he said, there are many people who genuinely do need the medication, but there are others who don’t. I believe that as a society, we are largely over-medicated and there has a bit of manufacturing illnesses.

We steady the surface, but not the underlying currents.

Ria777's avatar

@Captain_Fantasy: that one, I think, has more validity. I don’t know a lot about it, actually.

ChaosCross's avatar

New word:

Depressofiles

The fear of people affected with depression.

FutureMemory's avatar

The number of experts in this thread is really fascinating.

SeventhSense's avatar

@DominicX
Well thank you Dominic. You know me. I’m not afraid to say anything…
can’t keep my mouth shut sometimes but not afraid to say anything nonetheless.

Ria777's avatar

@FutureMemory: I have just spent the last couple of decades of my life thinking and reading psychiatry and developing a critique of it to try to rationalize my own feelings about it. when you swim in a sea of psychiatric propaganda and have a minority opinion, yeah, you want to want to try to have a basis for that belief. so I actually do consider myself an expert. though I don’t pretend to know everything.

though I will say, cheap sarcasm and cynicism add nothing to a thread.

Ria777's avatar

@SeventhSense: It’s ridiculous. It’s like they are manufacturing illnesses to sell us drugs.

they did this with Social Anxiety Disorder, I believe. and see above for depression in reference to this.

SeventhSense's avatar

@Ria777
And they all have a kind of generalized pitch to them. Like “Yes I feel that way”.. I thought I might just be blue, overwhelmed, anxious, stuffed up a little tired. “No I have a condition.” “My God I need more pills and sprays. That’s it”

FutureMemory's avatar

Self-appointed experts add even less.

Ria777's avatar

@FutureMemory: if you want to dispute my calling myself an expert then you go about it by proving your superior knowledge of the subjects that I talk about or by providing lucid counterarguments to my arguments. if you can’t do that, then you don’t have a position to judge whether or not I should call myself an expert.

DominicX's avatar

Sounds like some people don’t like what they’re hearing in this thread, but at the same time aren’t contributing much themselves…

FutureMemory's avatar

Research done in an effort to justify your own beliefs hardly qualifies as scientific study. Your attitude and tone make it sound like you don’t have any personal experience either. You are far from an expert, sorry to break the news.

Kelci33's avatar

Lol it’s Like vibro milaga (terrible spelling).... My uncle says people don’t reallllyhave it. They just want medication or attention That and virtigo.

Ria777's avatar

@FutureMemory: if I parroted the (psychiatric) party line, would you still dispute my beliefs? why do I have show my credentials to critique psychiatry? would you say that same thing to people who do believe it?

what beliefs of mine do I inadequately justify? do you take issue with any one in particular?

if my “attitude and tone make it sound like you have don’t have any personal experience either” than I guess the fault lies with my writing style not with making up a fake past for myself. not for no reason do I leap on most every psychiatry thread on here. I want to get the bastards back for what they did to me.

Captain_Fantasy's avatar

Really? People absolutely have fibromyalgia!
Try telling someone who has this that their pain isn’t real and see how they respond.
You might as well say cancer isn’t real because you don’t have it.

Ria777's avatar

@Captain_Fantasy: apples and oranges, hombre.

tinyfaery's avatar

So, who of you is qualified to judge who does and who does not need medication?

tinyfaery's avatar

A rhetorical fluther question? Uhh…

Captain_Fantasy's avatar

Removed because: Not worth it

Blondesjon's avatar

Happy and realistic?

Haleth's avatar

Great question. It’s obviously hard to take depression seriously if you haven’t felt it yourself, because it looks like a depressed person is just lazy or overly sensitive. A lot of our psychiatric problems today are misdiagnosed or overly medicated and that makes it worse. There are too many answers at this point to address them individually, but some of the answers look like people are just angry at the idea of depression because it’s perceived as weakness of character.

I have depression which I don’t treat with medicine. I tried a few medications when I was younger and the side effects were always so bad that I ended up deciding just to deal with it on my own. I eat healthy, exercise, see friends and family, and get as much sunlight as possible. It’s somewhat effective, and things in my life are generally going pretty well.

Sometimes I feel low, completely unrelated to whatever’s going on in my life. It feels like all the joy and meaning is sucked out of everything, or I’ll feel exhausted for no reason, like I’m just dragging my feet. Obviously you still have to work hard to support yourself and meet your goals, but depression makes it feel like you’re just functioning. You wonder, “Why do I care about this shit? Why am I trying so hard?” I don’t like feeling this way, so I do what I can to get over it.

Anyway, back to the original question, because we have gotten way off topic here. There clearly is prejudice against depression, but discrimination against a depressed person is different. I’ve seen a lot of cases where it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy, like the person got passed over for a promotion because they weren’t assertive enough or didn’t form strong personal relationships. Most of the people I know at least believe depression is real, but some of them are a bit disdainful about it.

Neizvestnaya's avatar

Hurt, vulnerable and scared as hell.

MacBean's avatar

Wow. Simone’s first answer hit the nail on the head. And some of them are right here in this thread. Unbelievable.

escapedone7's avatar

I have remained silent on this but have been lurking. I have someone in my family, who I love very dearly, who tried to commit suicide. I stood over him while he was collapsed in the bathroom floor with empty bottles all over. I called 911. I raced behind the ambulance and I nearly collapsed in the hallway of the ER when they made me leave the room while pumping his stomach. I sat with him in the intensive care unit for 2 days while we waited to see what damage he’d done to his kidneys and organs. Once stable they transported him to a psych unit. I ended up driving 3 hours away to the only psych hospital they could find a bed for him in. He ended up hospitalized 5 times in just a few years. I almost died inside with each subsequent hospitalization, watching them got through the routine of taking away his shoe laces , belt, and belongings, and walking him down a sterile coridor, slamming several locked barricades, like a prisoner. I watched a once bright student who suddenly could no longer even go to school, and never graduated, sit in the dark and give up. However with treatment, not just pills but counseling, therapy, social workers, hard work, professional help, he finally got his GED and is functioning.

This family member had to live on disability for a while, and medicaid and food stamps, while he was literally debilitated. Getting treatment, and being diligent about managing his condition, and relying on other services of the mental health care system for our county, has allowed him to not only to finally earn his GED this year. Also, with help from a caring social worker, he brushed up on some life skills he was lacking and eventually work. He has become a functioning member of society. When he .last tried to quit his meds, he started talking to himself and walking aroiund naked and had to go back to the hospital. He is more than merely “depressed” but I see many people with bipolar or clinical depression that are truly suffering a mental illness they need help with. All I know is, I have seen up close a person struggling with a psychiatric problem truly suffer, truly need help, and is not just being a whiney douche bag because he needs medication.

As far as people who are predjudiced against the mentally ill, I would call such people “insensitive, uninformed, ” or , perhaps “scientologists”.

casheroo's avatar

I think it starts with “R” and ends in “777”

Neizvestnaya's avatar

@escapedone7: I once lived with the spitting image of the relative you describe. It wasn’t a relative, it was my partner and one I lived with 24/7. It’s not PC but I’m going to raise my hand and say I’m terrified to ever go through that again. It’s as you say, you feel like you crash alongside them.

escapedone7's avatar

I apologize for blowing my top. I am not a mental health professional, just someone who dearly loves a person who needs one. I am just one of many people who love a family member who truly suffers and works hard to overcome a real illness. While other illnesses such as cancer would have people showing compassion, kindness and empathy, mental illness is mocked, laughed at, scorned, minimized, discarded as being fabricated. The suffering, and the devastation, is just as real as any other illness. They are still human beings. We. as their families, still LOVE them. It isn’t because they just aren’t as perfect as you are at life, a sign of some whiny laziness, that they need help. I will go blow my top elsewhere.

FutureMemory's avatar

I can’t believe you felt the need to apologize. Your posts are the best ones so far. Don’t apologize for being compassionate, I beg you.

DominicX's avatar

I like how people took some claiming that depression was over-diagnosed and over-medicated to mean that they are “prejudiced” and think all people with depression are whiny and lazy and don’t really have it.

Neizvestnaya's avatar

@escapedone7: No need to apologize. Families of the depressed are usually really grateful when their loved one finds a good and patient partner. We take your person under a new roof, we clean up the blood, vomit, broken glass, plaster and other oopses. We call you from the emergency rooms with updates and reassurances, we field all the awkward phone calls, lose the sleep, interrupt/thwart suicide attempts, perform triage, act as back up therapists, job counselors and nurses. We go without sleep, run down our health, run late to work, lose the respect of our co workers, alienate friends and strain the reserves of our own families as well as butt heads with neighbors and the sheriff. After all that, do you think many of us would go for it a second time around?

Just_Justine's avatar

Yes the name is “ignoranties” I just made that up. Hope it catches on.

Janka's avatar

If you need a word, I would suggest using just “prejudiced against depression” or something such. Having a separate name for every sort of prejudice will soon get tiresome. :)

MacBean's avatar

@DominicX: Well, it’s what we’re used to hearing. And it’s bullshit.

DominicX's avatar

@MacBean

Yes, but that’s not what those people were saying. Everyone who said that agreed that many people do need medication. They were only saying that there are issues with the way the medications are advertised and prescribed and with the way the disorders are diagnosed. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with questioning the way society works…it wasn’t attacking anyone.

12_func_multi_tool's avatar

They just do not know how to treat them, it’s foreign. Back in the days of lobotomy and large “Funny Farm” institutions one technique was used. The patient or inmate, which ever, was told to scrub the shower or bathroom. Every day the nurse would nit-pick and have the patient scrub it again even if it was unnecessary. The ant agony and provocation would continue until the patient, in so many words, tell the nurse to go F themselves, then it was pointed out that you are no longer depressed but have replaced it with anger so now you can see clearer.

Ria777's avatar

@12_func_multi_tool: that vile little story reminds me of the institution where they put me. though they wouldn’t’ve tried to do anything like that, it has the stamp of their power games all over it. but you know that would only have happened a long time ago. and based on my own experience a lot of the inmates wouldn’t have ”[told] the nurse to go [fuck] themselves”. they’d have just stopped. or not even started. institutionalization can destroy your capacity to initiate action.

TheJoker's avatar

No, I don’t think there’s a specific name for it, although prejudice against people with mental health issues is a well documented thing that the charity MIND have been campaigning against for years. I’ve never met anyone who’s had a specific prejudice against people with depression…. I think they tend to be against all types of mental health issue.

Ria777's avatar

@escapedone7, @Neizvestnaya: the majority don’t get to the stage of suicide or attempting it. troubled used to come down to people like your family members who tried suicide or refused to leave the home or stopped eating. it doesn’t mean that any more. the definition has widened.

Ria777's avatar

@Just_Justine: Yes the name is “ignoranties” I just made that up.

I love (actually I hate) how ignorant now means wrong instead of undereducated.

Ria777's avatar

@Neizvestnaya: act as back up therapists, job counselors and nurses

act as parents, in other words. psychiatry has such influence that rather than think of people in the psychiatric profession originally acted as surrogate family and friends that the circle has turned and now we say that friends and family act as surrogate members of the psychiatric profession. the psychiatric model has gotten that much ingrained.

and I think that you go through that Hell and your family members too because psychiatry does not know how to handle distress. or they would not rebound back to the home as distressed as before. give them drugs, lock them up, release them. people in that position need to get at the root and drag it out of them. most of all they have to realize that only they can do it. they have to do it or no one will do it. reach in their and drag it out if they want to take care of it. I don’t say it hatefully. I say it with the heart of someone who sees that psychiatry has it terribly, terribly wrong.

ucme's avatar

Ignorant judgemental cunts.That do?

Ria777's avatar

@ucme: Ignorant judgemental cunts.That do?

you forgot “offensive”. actually, how about “offensive judgmental cunts”? as I said above, I really don’t like the semantic drift that “ignorant” has undergone. both words have three syllables so it still has a similar ring. thank you for your opinion, though @ucme, much appreciated. mwah! big kiss!

Ria777's avatar

the story that @12_func_multi_tool told offended me more than any name you could call me.

MacBean's avatar

@Ria777: People still mean “ignorant” as “undereducated.” The problem is that people are wrong because they’re undereducated. They kind of go hand-in-hand.

Ria777's avatar

@MacBean: the newer definition of ignorant (which AFAIK originates from black american culture, since I first heard it there) means something more like arrogance and/or stupidity. “you should know better but you don’t” versus “you don’t know any better”. this degrades the original definition. I won’t argue with you about it, though.

validation: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1697622

see: ” ‘Ignorant’ in many places has undergone the same semantic shift as “rude”, and now is close in meaning to ‘rude.’ ”

tinyfaery's avatar

Defensive much? Answer the f’n question or move on. This thread is not your soapbox.

Silhouette's avatar

Uninformed or apathetic. Truly depressed people are in constant pain, whiners are a constant pain in the butt. You have to learn how to distinguish one from the other. Me, I can’t stand me a whiner. I am a whiner bigot. Depression is an illness and whining is a symptom and should be treated with patience and kindness. The other kind should be laughed at, ignored or mocked.

ParaParaYukiko's avatar

I don’t know what to call this kind of prejudice, but it seems to be everywhere. Mental illness has always had a stigma, frankly because it really is scary to see someone suffering from a mental illness.

I heard a terribly saddening story recently about a friend’s family who was from Bangladesh. Apparently, in that culture mental illness is not just scorned, it is openly mocked. My friend mentioned a family member who “went crazy” when her young daughter died. My friend’s family – even the father, an intelligent medical doctor – would tease that poor woman (“Where’s your daughter? I think I hear her! Where is she?”) and laugh at her when she would cry about her dead child. As someone who suffers from bipolar, this absolutely sickens me.

I tend to agree that diagnoses and medication are given out too easily these days. You see commercials that say, “If you feel a random twitch in your leg once in a while, you might have this terrible disease! Take this medication now!” and many buy into it completely.

But at the same time, no one has the right to judge someone else based on their disorder, whether you believe it is serious/real or not. I have heard people say that those who go to therapy or take medication are “weak.” I take medication to control an illness, the same way someone would take antibiotics to treat an infection. Whether you think someone “is just being lazy” or not, you have no way of knowing what it is like for someone else to live with that particular illness or disorder. It’s simply impossible. Being prejudiced against any disorder or mental illness, whether it’s depression, ADD, or Restless Leg Syndrome, is ridiculous, ignorant and insensitive.

Ria777's avatar

@tinyfaery: Defensive much?

not particularly.

Answer the f’n question or move on. This thread is not your soapbox.

you asked me a question I don’t know how to answer in my frame of reference. in my frame of reference, you have to look at yourself and save yourself. pills won’t do it and shrinks won’t do it. (sometimes, relationships with family, lovers, friends or even [yes] therapist [though I don’t place much stock in them] can save you, but you can’t count in it. you can’t rely on that.)

in a larger context, I believe in the re-organization of our lives to break down institutions which make us unhappy and re-building it on humane lines.

gailcalled's avatar

When I went into therapy in my late 50s, I was neither lost nor suicidal but very unhappy and felt as though I were wading through molasses during my waking hours. I had very valid situational reasons to feel droopy and depressed.

Additionally, I had tried many non-medical modalities previously (and still use many of them). The therapy and the low dose of an antidepressant allows me to function,to exercise regularly, be content, find joy sometimes, help others and understand my previous emotional responses to certain triggers.

No one labels me anything but a nice and kind and interesting woman. And I do believe in brain chemistry and wiring that goes awry.

@Ria777 : I hope that if you have emotional problems (and I hope that you don’t), you find succor outside of what you call “harmful” institutions.”

ParaParaYukiko's avatar

@gailcalled From reading your answer, I too feel I can label you as a nice, kind, interesting woman. :) Lurve for you.

MacBean's avatar

@Ria777 “Validation”? That’s a comment from some random person on the internet, in a response to an article about a hair salon being sued. Call me picky, but you’re going to have to cite something a little more official than that before your definition is validated for me.

SeventhSense's avatar

As to the question at hand just because some folks have been prejudicial when dealing with real mental illness does not preclude that some prejudice is warranted.
Likewise just as some mental illnesses is warranted does not preclude that there will be those with undue prejudice.

The problem today is there are so many aspects of our society especially in the United States which are inhumane. There aren’t enough pressure relief valves or infrastructure to both spot real issues early in a child’s development and address them adequately. And often those instances that are spotted are too easily medicated because of expediency. A child diagnosed as having ADD for example, may just be an advanced, frustrated, or developmentally challenged child. He’s given medication by a well meaning MD and now he’s a half asleep child . Now he’s tractable and doesn’t disrupt as much in the classroom. Which of course is important for classroom management and for the rest of the students, but may not address the issue. He still can’t learn and is not offered adequate educational approaches which might benefit him These may be educational approaches and classrooms which may look like nothing that’s been seen before. As a result of examples like this and many other environmental and organic causes we have an increase in aberrant behavior at all strata of society which are usually spotted at a very advanced stage- suicide, homicide, and various crimes. Quite often by individuals beset with mental illness yet with high functioning mental capacity.

Many of the mentally ill find themselves unnecessarily incarcerated.
While society has no problem finding the funds for ever increasing prisons, truly addressing the nature of why crime occurs in the first place or investing in rehabilitation itself is viewed as soft on crime and counterproductive. Yet recidivism rates of prisoners continues to rise exponentially and there is a failure to see any correlation. The response is just to add larger and larger band-aids in a vain attempt to stop systemic bleeding. Surely the organic nature of certain mental illnesses and depression must be medicated but we also must consider the major social and environmental causes which are contributing to these. At least some of which might be eliminated or at least ameliorated by different approaches to education, lessening stress and seeing to the basic needs of people.
Case in point people are happier and have more hope when their bills are paid, they are not suffering with debilitating debt, feel basically secure that they can take care of their lives effectively and that if they need to take themselves or their baby to the doctor they don’t have to pay for it for another 20 years. Medicine needs to do it’s part no doubt but society also must do its part.

SeventhSense's avatar

@MacBean
People still mean “ignorant” as “undereducated.” The problem is that people are wrong because they’re undereducated. They kind of go hand-in-hand.
Either approach is somewhat unfair. There are uneducated folks knowledgeable enough in their gaps to err on the side of caution when making a decision and there are educated folks so convinced of their own knowledge as to be prejudiced.

Ria777's avatar

@MacBean: I didn’t say a semantic shift reflected in sources like Webster’s, I meant a shift in the meaning used on the street and the internet.

go to urbandictionary.com. look up the definitions of “ignorant”, “ignant” and “ig’nant”. the second two entries pretty much showcases the new definition of ignorant. the first has a mix. before you complain that they also don’t have authority to define the word, as I earlier said, this has to do with how people use the word in the real world.

SeventhSense's avatar

@Ria777
psychiatry has such influence that rather than think of people in the psychiatric profession originally acted as surrogate family and friends that the circle has turned and now we say that friends and family act as surrogate members of the psychiatric profession.

Very interesting observation. The problem with most disorders though is that it takes a dedicated involvement on the part of the patient towards recovery more so than the professional. The professional need maintain as clinical and objective position as possible only. There are no magic formulas but I do agree it will take a concerted effort on the part of everyone in society. Even those who imagine they are not affected by it.

escapedone7's avatar

@tinyfaery I apologized already. I know this isn’t a soap box. I wasn’t attacking anyone particular. Obviously I care dearly about a person with a problem and I have been dealing for quite some time with a lot of people who blame him or don’t understand him. I didn’t want to attack anyone but obviously my real life stress and situation spilled over. I just had some self-therapy of sorts and let it out. Again, apologies.

SeventhSense's avatar

@Ria777
Social Anxiety Disorder
Didn’t that used to be called shy?

Ria777's avatar

@escapedone7: certain that @tinyfaery meant me, not you.

BoBo1946's avatar

@Captain_Fantasy ditto my friend…been there and done that…not worth it!

tinyfaery's avatar

I didn’t mean either one of you particularly. If I had something to say to you directly, I would.

@escapedone7 I was not referring to you at all.

My last comment: Unless you have studied and researched and have a degree that qualifies you to diagnose and recommend treatment then your opinion is meaningless. I’d no more pay heed to a rich kid trying to tell me that poverty isn’t so bad then I do to your uneducated, ignorant opinions.

Ria777's avatar

@tinyfaery: can I state that the Soviet Union had problems which led to its collapse? without having a degree in history? without having lived there?

do I have to have a degree in criminal law to say that the Catholic Church should have exposed their pedophile priests? (with the collaboration of psychiatrists, incidentally. see http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2003/06/09/030609fa_fact)

although in my case I don’t have the rich child’s experience of poverty.

my uneducated, ignorant opinions come about after I had my life bounced around like a pinball in the pinball machine of psychiatry. I have also experienced some extreme emotional states for months at a time. think of me a a rich kid who has experienced poverty, then.

why don’t you demand that the people on this thread who do agree with the psychiatric model prove their credentials? for consistency’s sake?

gailcalled's avatar

Ria77: My credentials are a BA in Astronomy, research in said field, French teacher for two years and 12 years doing college placement for 11th and 12th graders

wundayatta's avatar

@SeventhSense wrote ”Tired of the insufferable medicated masses. Don’t get me wrong. There are many people who genuinely need medication but there are countless others who can’t seem to accept that life is difficult and they are just not that important.

If you are consistent, then you will use a hand saw instead of a power saw; a written letter instead of a telephone; a typewriter instead of a computer…..

Wait! That would mean you wouldn’t be here! Hmmmm.

Meds are a tool. Mental techniques are a tool. There’s no excuse for getting down on people for their choice of tool. That’s just plain condescending and prejudiced. But if that’s the way you want to play it, then get the hell off your computer. I want to see some letters, man! I mean, that’s the way real men do it. They have nothing to do with computers. Computers are for wimps.

SeventhSense's avatar

@wundayatta
I said there are people who genuinely need medication. And you should know that from my other posts in reference to this I have no issue with medication and it’s often very useful and necessary. Nor do I think it’s a stigma. But to draw on your own analogy why use a power saw when a scissor will suffice? Some would just benefit from behavioral modification, an exercise program etc. but NOT ALL.
Can I be any clearer?

Ria777's avatar

@wundayatta: If you are consistent, then you will use a hand saw instead of a power saw; a written letter instead of a telephone; a typewriter instead of a computer…..

I think of it more analogous to using electronic media as substitutes for face-to-face relationships and vicarious for real experience. (I consider myself an example of an abuser of electronic media in the way that I mentioned.)

when the pills don’t work, don’t fix the underlying problem, go and take more pills. taken analgesic while the wound festers.

wundayatta's avatar

@Ria777 Most people I know try to get different pills when the pills they are taking don’t work. And a good deal of them would much rather take no pills at all. Pills really suck. I have a hard time imagining anyone taking them if it weren’t necessary. Every night I have to fight with myself to get those pills down my throat. If it was just me, I’d stop and handle this, as well as I could, on my own. I’m not going to go down the list of side effects that are pretty damn annoying, except to say, I’d like to keep my kidneys.

Ria777's avatar

@wundayatta: Most people I know try to get different pills when the pills they are taking don’t work.

as I said in my previous post in the last sentence. (I couldn’t tell if you meant to echo me in that or you hadn’t read that part.)

I have a hard time imagining anyone taking them if it weren’t necessary.

amended: if they didn’t believe them necessary. (necessary for what, by the way? the semantic well formedness principle of Neuro-Linguistic Programming talks about how we program our brains with language, including incomplete statements like this one. so, “I need to…” does not mean the same thing as “I need to do X to do Y”. do you understand?)

psychiatry has conned you into thinking of the brain as the sole determinant of our consciousness when in actuality consciousness acts upon the brian as well. we cannot intricate the mind from the brain. or the mind from the rest of the body, though especially not the mind and the brain.

you can usefully compare your brain to your kidneys. when you compare the mind to the kidneys you have misrepresented a entirely other kind of relationship. do you understand?

tinyfaery's avatar

Scientology is dangerous.

Ria777's avatar

@tinyfaery: absolutely. I speak out about that, too.

wundayatta's avatar

@Ria777 I can’t say I do understand. You’re going to have to go into more depth for me.

My first reaction to the idea that “we program our brains with language” was that the linguistic brain is not the only way of thinking we have. We have a non-linguistic brain, and who the hell knows what that is doing?

As to echoing you, I was hoping to put a different spin on the subject. Your sentence implied (to me) that it was a waste of time taking more pills. Mine was meant to suggest that finding meds that work is a process—a productive process. Let me add to that that meds are designed to treat the underlying problem—a malfunctioning brain chemistry.

Ria777's avatar

@wundayatta: My first reaction to the idea that “we program our brains with language” was that the linguistic brain is not the only way of thinking we have. We have a non-linguistic brain, and who the hell knows what that is doing?

I should have said “program our minds with language.” I would have made myself clearer. anyway… yes who does know? at the same time, I think pretty inconvertibly, the mind processes language. we would not even have an “I”, a consciousness which thinks of us as “I” without language.

think of feral children who never learned language at a critical language. they lack almost everything that makes them uniquely human.

really, look into the first volume of The Sourcebook of Magic, the first book ever written on NLP. it will show you a lot about how our base assumptions about ourselves and the world depend on strings of language.

Let me add to that that meds are designed to treat the underlying problem—a malfunctioning brain chemistry.

I meant to say this for a while on this thread: the principle idea of the mental disorder involves a strange loop, a tautology.

“why do I have a mental disorder?”

“you have a chemical imbalance.”

“why do I have a chemical imbalance?”

“you have a mental disorder.”

round in circles.

I say, yes, you have an imbalance on a chemical level, caused by something. so you try to figure out what caused it, whether diet or dissatisfaction that you have or some element of your past that has come up. principally, you need to do something about it to progress and feel better. or come to terms philosophically. do something.

Ria777's avatar

by the way, based on what you said I thought you took kidney medication. if you take psych meds and, as you say, you have an instinctive aversion, then don’t take it. trust your intuition.

tinyfaery's avatar

Thanks Tom. How’s Joey Potter?

Ria777's avatar

yes, @tinyfaery, Scientologists love to talk up schools of psychology other than their own. (by “schools of psychology other than their own”, I mean NLP.)

Captain_Fantasy's avatar

Obviously he must’ve been faking be depressed.

wundayatta's avatar

@Ria777 The reasoning doesn’t run in circles, and if you believe that, you haven’t done any research into the issue. The chemical imbalance seems to be caused by a different architecture of cells in the minds of the mentally ill. As I understand it, there is a hole in the cell wall that allows some element (calcium?) in. Calcium regulates a bunch of other things related to the production and use of the ‘mines.

There is science behind this, and more being learned every day. It seems disingenuous to me to claim there is only circular reasoning here. I gather you have an agenda, given the responses of other people.

My reaction to my med is not instinctive. It’s based on the side effects. I know the meds help me. But I really hate having to take them, and I hate the side effects. Still, at the moment, I’m not into trying to kill myself. However, it is possible that I may be depressed enough to stop my meds in the next year or so. Just saying.

Ria777's avatar

@Captain_Fantasy: show me where on this thread (or any of my posts on Fluther) that I said any such thing. key word: “faking”.

Ria777's avatar

@tinyfaery: you could just as easily see this as an illustration of my points. he decided to go off meds. why? if they worked so well and turned his life around, then why do it? a year elapsed between his going off the meds and his suicide.

if you think of your emotions as out of your control except by pills that takes the locus of control away you.

not that I can say or any of us can say what happened to specifically motivate the death of a total stranger.

Ria777's avatar

@wundayatta: a quick search reveals that you mean schizophrenia, specifically. SSRI’s, the most commonly prescribed psych meds, don’t even target dopamine. they target serotonin (obviously—hence the first “S” in SSRI). though, what triggers the schizophrenia?

I maintain that if you hate taking the pills, your deep self has good reason to hate it. if people off meds all killed themselves I would have killed myself around a hundred times. I have had a life bad enough that I wouldn’t have wished it on anyone (of which my two stays in a mental institution count as the worst that I remember) and I somehow haven’t done it.

wundayatta's avatar

@Ria777 Bipolar, but it doesn’t matter. They are all related. One difference is that I think Schizophrenia has a higher mortality rate. The mortality rate for Bipolar is 20%, according to my psychiatrist. I don’t know what you have, but not all people off meds kill themselves. Perhaps 20% do, eventually. That means 80% stay alive. I hope you stay in that 80% (or whatever the rate is for your disorder).

Ria777's avatar

@wundayatta: I don’t know what you have, but not all people off meds kill themselves.

gosh, you know there goes my plan for a history-making first.

(thank you, you make a great straight man.)

“I don’t know what you have” honestly offends me. you operate under the psychiatric paradigm. I do not and I feel a bit pissed off about your trying to apply my life to it.

I have no “mental illness”. I have a brain injury, though not the kind that makes you talk like a cartoon character. additionally I have a history of traumatic experiences and involuntary stays in a mental institution (two of them) hurt me profoundly.

again, please do not expect me to subscribe to the psychiatric paradigm.

neurological conditions do exist (of course they do). the injurious effect of trauma does exist. “mental illness”, however does not exist and scientists should not speak of such a thing with a straight face. at least not in their capacity as scientists.

wundayatta's avatar

@Ria777 You keep asserting that mental illness doesn’t exist. It’s not clear to me what you are saying doesn’t exist. Are you talking about thinking of these things as medical conditions instead of mental conditions? Are you saying that the forms of behavior that the “mentally ill” exhibit should not be considered a symptom of an illness? Are you denying that there is any relationship between certain alleles and the subsequent brain chemistry that is correlated with the display of certain patterns of behavior

Ria777's avatar

@wundayatta: thank you for asking.

Are you talking about thinking of these things as medical conditions instead of mental conditions?

short answer: in many cases, yes.

longer answer: the way that you phrased the question shows how the concept influences thinking. society has certain core assumptions. when, in a postmodern culture (versus, say, a more religious one) you violate these assumptions, your actions get categorized as “mental illness”, all together, though of course, they have a “legitimate: neurological condition i.e. Asperger’s, Alzheimer’s or epilepsy.

people with these conditions would generally find themselves offended if called “mentally ill”. and yet supposedly the term has only an objective scientific meaning and carries no value judgement, right?

Are you saying that the forms of behavior that the “mentally ill” exhibit should not be considered a symptom of an illness?

short answer: yes.

longer answer: sure. that doesn’t contradict my first answer.

Are you denying that there is any relationship between certain alleles and the subsequent brain chemistry that is correlated with the display of certain patterns of behavior?

no, I wouldn’t deny it. I do think that environmental factors do play a part and so does the actions of the person. by actions, I include their thinking, of course. most people think unconsciously. they don’t think of their mind as a part of themselves that they can train, shape and develop.

I would want to live in a world where kids grow up with formal lessons in emotional intelligence that way that like they know reading and math, and carry it worth with them. in our world, kids do know this to a limited degree, though, they don’t have it impressed on them enough.

Ria777's avatar

I would make a diagram of the brain-mind-environmental feedback process and compare it with psychiatry’s, if not for my limited ASCII skills.

wundayatta's avatar

I see what you’re saying and really don’t object to any of it. The only thing that bothers me is your opinion of psychiatry. It seems like you think they aren’t scientists.

I have serious questions about how “illness” is defined. Sometimes you see me ask questions here related to that. Theoretical issues. I think the psychological profession has some definitions, and are working on more. It’s a tricky thing, though, because it’s one thing for an “illness” to be in the DSM V and it’s another thing entirely to standardize the way psychologists interpret that.

Ria777's avatar

@wundayatta: The only thing that bothers me is your opinion of psychiatry. It seems like you think they aren’t scientists.

who do you mean by “they”?

I have serious questions about how “illness” is defined.

any way you like. see the problem?

It’s a tricky thing, though, because it’s one thing for an “illness” to be in the DSM V and it’s another thing entirely to standardize the way psychologists interpret that.

to my mind, whether it comes down to an individual shrink or the DSM, it comes down to opinion. nothing you can prove. and I would not have a problem with that if they did not have the power to enforce their vision of reality with violence. but they do.

wundayatta's avatar

@Ria777 I would not have a problem with that if they did not have the power to enforce their vision of reality with violence. but they do.

I can see how an experience like that would make you very mistrustful. I have not had such a bad experience. People have taken me seriously throughout this adventure. Nothing has been forced on me. There are a lot of horror stories about psychiatrists. Not so many about psychologists, since they don’t have quite as much power as the shrinks, I think.

But, there are jerks and assholes in every profession. There are also honest and empathetic people, too.

monocle's avatar

The word Ignorant seems fitting.

I agree that a quick fix is favored over holistic medicine with just about anything now. Whoever said that social phobias don’t exist… they do. The idea that only a pill will cure it is what’s made up.

Ria777's avatar

@wundayatta: psychology doesn’t bother me, particularly. though as far as understanding the psyche the Hindu and Buddhist philosophers got there thousands of years ago and have transcended them. and all the psychonautical exporation of the 1960’s (and before) and after, this has gotten ignored.

But, there are jerks and assholes in every profession. There are also honest and empathetic people, too.

you know, I hear that a lot. and I don’t deny it.

however, that misses the gist of the argument. (I do not like terms like “jerk” and “asshole” anyway.) the problem has to do with the system. it has to do with some of the people in the system, too. you cannot, though, neatly separate the two of them.

when you give a group of people an unwonted degree of power (see the Catholic Church), you give them a chance to corrupt themselves with that power. (see this article in The New Yorker about psychiatrists and Catholic priests worked together to cover up instances of pedophilia in the latter group:

http://tinyurl.com/yk353wt)

as I said, though, not every person abuses their power. however, even if no one abused their power, the system has enough wrong with that I would want to reform it anyway.

Ria777's avatar

@wundayatta: I can see how an experience like that would make you very mistrustful.

it didn’t just happen to me. it happens to other people. if a minor’s parent or guardian orders it, or the court has previously judged you incompetent (or even if they haven’t, in case of a legal settlement or a punishment), they can force you to undergo it.

up until the modern era (and still do in some parts of the world, still today) societies had strong bond between religion and the state. here in the u.s. we have an alliance between the state and psychiatry.

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