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Linda_Owl's avatar

Are you aware that the Dept. of HomeLand Security placed an order in March (2012) for 450 Million rounds of 40 cal. Hollow Point ammunition?

Asked by Linda_Owl (7722 points ) August 10th, 2012

Then in July they placed an order for a flexible plastic explosive material called Prima Sheet, & in August they placed an order for a half ton of high explosives (high density ammonium nitrate). After placing the order for the high explosive materials, they said it was to “train dogs”. One has to wonder just exactly what the DHS might be up to with all of this fire-power & high explosives?
You can check the following links for additional information:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/why-is-homeland-security-buying-450-million-rounds-of-hollow-point-bullets/
http://www.prepperpodcast.com/dhs-requests-plastic-explosives-hides-request/#axzz23ARH5WHM
http://www.activistpost.com/2012/08/department-of-homeland-security-orders.html

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57 Answers

jerv's avatar

Hollow point rounds are less prone to over-penetration, which is important in some circumstances, especially on a plane. And considering that the DHS is a large organization in many places, I can see how any order they place will be in large quantities.

Still, it does raise a few questions. The biggest one in my mind is whether I trust an organization as inept as DHS to even tie their own shoes, let alone guns and explosives.

elbanditoroso's avatar

This is hilarious. Not the purchase. The paranoia. If you read the comments on those sites that you quote, the posters are quite amusing. Basically adding 2 + 2 and coming up with 450,212.

Facts without context can (and are) cherry picked to drive an agenda. Clearly the agenda of these three websites is to scare people and create paranoia.

It’s fun to watch people confabulate.

SuperMouse's avatar

First and foremost there is no way I would ever, ever consider Glenn Beck’s website as a reliable source. Dude is seriously out of his mind. The other two sources seem to be sites that are designed to appeal to conspiracy theorists. Fascinating stuff though.

Mr_Paradox's avatar

Those explosives are to train dogs. They stick the explosives in a hiding place and the dog has to find it within a cretain period of time. The 40 cal. hollow points are more effective than the standard 9 mil. round and the guns can hold more rounds than a 45 cal. You want more stopping power if you try and stop a drug induced madman. There are reports of 20–30 rounds needed to stop crimanals that are high because they can’t register pain.

TexasDude's avatar

Quick, someone tell me what Alex Jones has to say about this! I need to know whether I should be afraid or not!~

King_Pariah's avatar

.40 cal = hydrostatic shock. Great way to put someone down who just won’t go down (such as criminals on angel dust)

TexasDude's avatar

…wish I had the bucks for 450 million rounds of anything. Ammo ain’t cheap these days. My range trips would be a hell of a lot more fun.

josie's avatar

That’s one or two rounds for every man, woman and child in the USA.
But you have to figure they will miss occasionally, and so some of us will still be here, and they’ll be out.
Then we’ll get ‘em.

WestRiverrat's avatar

Hopefully 400 million rounds are for training and the other 50 million are for duty use and never leave the box they came in.

For an organization the size of DHS, a half ton is not a large quantity. McVeigh used over two tons for his bomb at Oklahoma City.

ragingloli's avatar

If the government really wanted to wage war on its own population, they would not use some pilfy handguns in a civilian agency.
They would bring in the military, with its assault rifles, body armour, tanks, artillery, drones, helicopters, fighters, bombers and nuclear missiles.
And because they are military, they will follow any order they are given.

jerv's avatar

@King_Pariah Hydrostatic shock is a myth; except for the skull, the human body is far too elastic for a handgun to cause hydrostatic shock, and a hit to the skull generally causes enough injury to render it moot.

@josie How many rounds do you go through at the range? Probably more than a dozen :p

@WestRiverrat Divvy up 1000 pounds amongst even 100 sites and we’re talking 10 pounds each; really not much at all.

@ragingloli Not necessarily, but that is a discussion best held elsewhere.

jrpowell's avatar

Probably just buying products that major campaign contributors produce.

woodcutter's avatar

Private gun owners buy that much shit every week. The govt wants to try to play catch up? Bring it.

majorrich's avatar

If I had to guess, I would say a round of qualifications and training is coming up. Its not unusual to burn up a lot of rounds when people only use their weapons once or twice a year (for qualifications). could also be that they are burning up budget moneys so they don’t lose it next year. I’m not shocked nor concerned with an order like this.

Nullo's avatar

Oh yeah, that’s old news. A bit suspicious, certainly, but nothing new.
There’s no reason not to buy ammo in bulk; it’s not like it’s going to spoil in the next ten years.

Mr_Paradox's avatar

@Nullo However, if it’s made in China all bets are off right?

TexasDude's avatar

@Mr_Paradox, actually the Chinese are pretty good at making arms and ammunition. I have a few hundred rounds of Chinese made 5.56 and a Norinco made pump shotgun that works flawlessly. Chinese M1As, 1911s, SKSs, and Mak-90s are all really good quality too. If only they made consumer shit to the same standards as their guns and ammo.

Mr_Paradox's avatar

@Fiddle_Playing_Creole_Bastard I bought a case of 50. ammo for my McMillian and the stuff, quite frankly, sucks.

TexasDude's avatar

@Mr_Paradox, really? Hmm, all my experiences have been positive, but I don’t have any experience with their .50, however.

ucme's avatar

Well I am now.

Mr_Paradox's avatar

@Fiddle_Playing_Creole_Bastard Chinese stuff is pretty inconsistant.

woodcutter's avatar

It is Illegal to import ammunition from China. Same goes for weapons. Has been for a long time. Whatever Chinese guns and ammo currently here are of a finite amount.

Norinco (of China) screwed the pooch when they attempted to export rocket launchers to the US and were busted by undercover federal agents. So they have been banished from doing business in the US in the civilian arms market. No more Polytech ,MAK 90’s AK variants, which is stupid because they are not any more or less an AK than all the European models. American gun companies can still import guns produced in China such as shotguns. But no ammo ,afaik.
Ammo sold in bulk is for the cost savings. Not a sign that Armageddon is imminent. Getting bullets by the 50 count boxes is a ripp-off.

Mr_Paradox's avatar

The stuff was made in China, not bought from them.

TexasDude's avatar

Are you sure the .40 ammo was made in China? What brand is it?

majorrich's avatar

I’ve never tried Chinese manufactured ammunition, only Russian. Inconsistent is the only problem I’ve experienced with them. Maybe the varnish issue a little bit with their .223. I just don’t like steel cases very much. Is Chinese ammo brass cased? Reloadable?

Mr_Paradox's avatar

Hell, my McMillian won’t even FEED Chinese ammo correctly. I haven’t even TRIED to reload Chinese ammunition.
@Fiddle_Playing_Creole_Bastard I believe @woodcutter was refering to my post directly above his.

TexasDude's avatar

@majorrich, my Norinco 5.56 is brass cased and reloadable. I’m going to keep what I have left as a collector’s item, though, and not shoot it. The boxes are neat.

@Mr_Paradox, ah ok, I see what you mean. I thought you may have been referring to the DHS purchase.

woodcutter's avatar

One BIG reason the Norinco ammo is banned because it is steal core. For that reason the “sky is falling crowd” insists that makes it armor piercing. The steel is of a softer type not nearly hard enough to be truly armor piercing. It is just a cheaper component to make it less expensive to produce. Lots of ammo from other countries have steel core and for some reason that stuff is safe? It’s just one more way to solidify the Chinese import ban.
Most center-fire rifle ammunition will penetrate bullet resistant body armor no matter where it is made, so by anti-gun definitions, all rifle ammo should be banned. They easily take advantage of the ignorant and scared shitless masses who won’t even try to understand what they fear.

woodcutter's avatar

It could also be that they want to create more of an artificial demand to drive up cost to consumers. This being an election year with panic buying getting on, it might not take much.

King_Pariah's avatar

@jerv all I’ve read shows it sorta wishy washy with neither side being 100% solid. Could you provide some links to support the hydrostatic shock = myth? And don’t send me to mythbusters, those guys suck (never, NEVER forgiving them for the Archimedes mirror fuck up)

Nullo's avatar

@woodcutter Most of the ammo for my 91/30 (Russian, all) is steel-core; that got the thing barred from one of the local ranges. I asked the range master why, and he explained that they messed up the bullet trap in the back. I noticed later where a miss had gone clear through an I-beam.
@Fiddle_Playing_Creole_Bastard A friend of mine is thinking of getting one of their M44s, since the 91/30 is so big, and he doesn’t want to pay for a Russian one. Good to hear that they meet the standard.
I’d heard that the receivers on the Norinco SKS were made from a softer sort of steel that would stretch and warp over time, leading to unreliability, but if there’s one think I’ve learned about gun culture, it’s that not all data are generated equally.

woodcutter's avatar

@Nullo The 91/30 is totally different animal compared to a modern military weapon. If you stand the cartridges beside each other it become evident. Unless you get modern ammo for those it will all be of military surplus and it is pretty much the luck of the draw if the can has 180 gr or 147 gr heavy ball or light ball. The heavy ball has better hitting potential and will blast though some pretty thick steel. of the kind that gun ranges don’t care to have their traps made of. My club is outdoor range with dirt berms so not an issue. It is also thought that the steel core could spark and possibly ignite a fire. Try to find some lead core for that.

The M-44 is still a Russian gun uses the same ammo and ballistically there is not much of a difference between the two. Less barrel whip. It is slightly a more unpleasant gun to shoot because it tends to kick harder but the fireball you get from a shorter tube is pretty cool. The shorter length of that gun tends to put the balance point further back making it feel seemingly heavier. Get a slip -on limbsaver for it you will be glad you did.

I think you will wear an SKS barrel completely out over and over before you notice any reciever deforming there. I have not heard of that with those. Just shoot the hell out of it. It’ll be here on Earth long after you’re gone.

Nullo's avatar

@woodcutter I use this stuff. I don’t expect that it’s surplus.

Linda_Owl's avatar

Most of these responses have gotten totally off track & are focusing on personal gun & ammunition use. My intent was to find out if any of my fellow Flutherites were aware of the DHS had purchased 450 rounds of 40 cal hollow point ammunition, & plastic sheets of explosive materials, & a half ton of ammonium nitrate + the material used to make it explode. Personally, I find these purchases to be puzzling, especially since the explosive materials were ordered under the auspices of the TSA. I am not attempting to set a conspiracy theory in motion, but I do wonder what is the reason for these purchases. The DHS is a very secretive agency which has grown tremendously since its creation after 9/11 & it is now the end-all be-all of the secret services in the United States & it puzzles me why they would need this amount of fire power & explosive power.

woodcutter's avatar

Would not surprise me if some “domestic terror incidents” crop up soon. How many bomb dogs will they train to use all this stuff? Watch…much of this stuff will suddenly be unaccounted for and that will be all the govt needs to spy on us even more. We don’t need to worry about attacks from others. It will come from within our own agencies who are supposed to protect us. They will gin up congress to spend more money and grant itself more unconstitutional powers. We are heading for a police state but it has to happen in increments so as not to arouse too much suspicion.

Does the water feel a little warm yet?

woodcutter's avatar

I got spoiled with the mil surp. Glad I stocked up before. Brown Bear is too expensive for me right now. @Nullo Watch out for those lacquer coated cases with that Russian stuff. It might gum up your chamber from the heat making it hard to work the action. I love the 91/30’s, you can’t have too many of them.

TexasDude's avatar

@Linda_Owl, should have posted in General. And several people did give you their opinion before the gun talk started.

Nullo's avatar

@Linda_Owl Oh, don’t you worry! That particular conspiracy theory has been in motion for some time.
I don’t know what they want with explosives. They’re not a terribly useful thing to have unless you need to cause trouble. I do know that if I had explosives, I’d find a nearby desert and have some fun with them.

Linda_Owl's avatar

For @Fiddle_Playing_Creole_Bastard , Alex Jones is saying that the DHS is buying an additional 750 Million rounds of ammunition

http://www.infowars.com/dhs-to-purchase-another-750-million-rounds-of-ammo/

And I am even more puzzled now than when I asked this question. Why would the DHS need this much fire power & this much explosive power?

majorrich's avatar

It really depends on how many agents it has to be divided amongst and how much is going on the shelf. I’ve see officers use thousands of rounds of practice before they qualify. I’ve even had to remind a couple that the pointed end goes forward. Especially office pogues. They shoot their firearms exactly twice a year to qualify, and then they sit in the holster the rest of the time before they have to use it again. Often they don’t even clean their weapons in between. AND as I mentioned earlier, if they don’t use up their budgets, they lose it at the end of September. So somebody is on the ball and ordered expendable ammunition. I remember buying several hundred laptops so my IT budget wouldn’t get cut come the next fiscal.

WestRiverrat's avatar

@majorrich According to what I could find, there are 200,000 to 250,000 recognized employees of DHS.

majorrich's avatar

LOL Sounds about right from the DHS people I’ve seen. most probably had never fired a weapon before signing on. They started out with a pretty good gun though. If I recall they had those S&W Glock clones.

majorrich's avatar

Now, 450M rounds of Glasers I would be concerned about.

woodcutter's avatar

When you have access to unlimited funding you get to blow it any way you want. It is all pistol ammo S&W .40. That caliber is standard law enforcement load. They see the mad rush getting on in the next couple months and wanted to get their share of it before the public dives in all the way. In two months we will be lucky if we find .22 ammo for sale anywhere.

Nullo's avatar

Hollowpoint strikes me as an odd choice for range work. Isn’t FMJ usually cheaper?

I’m a bit curious as to why the DHS isn’t buying any rifle ammunition. Even the cops here in Mayberry have ARs in their cars. Or are they, and we just haven’t heard as much about it?

WestRiverrat's avatar

@Nullo isn’t the new machine pistol they carry available in .40 cal now?

FMJ is cheaper, but when you are trying to use up your budget cheaper isn’t better.

Mr_Paradox's avatar

Plus, hollow point has more stopping power. Practice with what you use.

woodcutter's avatar

@Nullo it could be that in that particular production run there was more HP available than range ammo all at once. Ballistically the weapon can’t tell which is which when fired but it would be somewhat cheaper to use solid for target/ training and save the HP for duty but this is the govt we are discussing. They didn’t buy the more costly ammo,we did.

Nullo's avatar

@WestRiverrat The HK UMP40, though I think it’s technically an SMG. They apparently have put in an order for some more of those, as well. Sharing ammo across platforms is a good move. Makes the ammo numbers more reasonable, if you consider that the sidearms are probably also .40. Were they to split the lot 50/50, that’s only about 325 million rounds per type of firearm. It would be interesting to watch someone go down to the range and just shoot all of that at once. :D
The Federal Budget Office says that the DHS has also purchased .223 cal ammunition from Federal (some estimate as much as 175,000,000 rounds) to supplement their currently-held 3-month supply. That’s a lot of range time.

woodcutter's avatar

@Nullo .223..is that not the same as 5.56mm? That round has been the standard rifle round since Vietnam when the M-16 was fielded. The M-4 is basically the same weapon. Training, wars, use up a lot of ammo. That purchase seems pretty justifiable.
There was a time not so long ago (2008) when police depts. could not get their hands on any for their people. Apparently the factories have caught back up until next election.

Mr_Paradox's avatar

@woodcutter same bullet, different pressures. You can use a .223 in 5.56, but you can’t use a 5.56 in a .223 without risking the gun blowing up in your face.

majorrich's avatar

I still have my stash from the last election. Although, some more 5.56 might come in handy before the panic buyers grab everything off the shelves again. Remember how hard it was to get a carton of .22’s after the last election?

woodcutter's avatar

@majorrich Yes I do and it was a pain brought on by everyone panicking and driving the prices up. I do believe there was some price gouging from unscrupulous dealers taking advantage as well. 1000 rds of 7.62×39mm could be had for about 150 or less – but after the election and maybe a couple months before you were lucky to get it for 300. Watch what happens this fall.

Nullo's avatar

@woodcutter I know, I was just answering my earlier puzzlement.
You guys make a good point; I ought to buy some more ammo before election season hits.

Nullo's avatar

@woodcutter * salivates * Is it the corrosive-primer stuff?

woodcutter's avatar

@Nullo Yeah it is, but corrosive ammo is good stuff as long as you clean the gun soon after shooting it which should be done anyway. You can’t beat the price. Use hot water or even cold down the barrel, and it rinses the salt residue right out, I have a turkey baster that keeps the water from getting everything wet.(Point the barrel down).Then use whatever oil to finish up with. It’s super easy. There’s nothing to fear from using corrosive ammo as long as you clean. Every single Mosin- Nagant has had corrosive fired through it because that’s all that was available way back then. It’s the luck of the draw if you get one that was properly maintained in its earlier days. My favorite mil surp rifle.
There is a bill coming through as we speak that wants to make buying bulk ammo online against the law. I hope it fails. Again…does nothng to stop crime.

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