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ninjacolin's avatar

For Christians who believe only God can help you to understand the true meanings in the Bible.. How do you account for other Christians who share that view but who disagree about other important understandings in the scriptures?

Asked by ninjacolin (13801 points ) January 16th, 2014

Some devout Christians believe that only God can help you to understand His word, the Bible. We’ll call this group of devout believers Group A.

Not all the Christians in Group A have come to the same conclusions about what the Bible’s word means. Some differences between believers in Group A include topics like:
– Who will or won’t make it to a positive afterlife
– What is God’s true plan for humanity (and/or life in general)
– Whether Jesus was God himself
– Whether the creation story was literal or not
– Whether to participate in politics
– How many wives a man can have
the list goes on..

Regardless of who you ask, the most scholarly of the representatives within Group A will have bible scriptures and other historical references to pit against one another’s views to support why it is that one set of conclusions is more evidently God’s true meaning or not.

Many disagreeing parties within Group A will say that the other views in the group are lacking God’s true blessing to help them understand the Bible more accurately.

How do you personally account for the differences in belief between Group A Christians?

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84 Answers

Seek's avatar

Fundamentalist: Clearly they’re not being led by the Spirit, and they will learn this on the Day of Judgment.

Liberal Christian: God will speak to them in the way they understand, and belief, faith and good works are enough.

ETpro's avatar

I’m not a Christian, but I have been in both traditional Presbyterian and evangelical forms. And let me tell you those two churches disagreed on the most fundamental aspects of the faith. So great question, and I’m going to make a mess of popcorn and enjoy watching the fur fly.

ninjacolin's avatar

@ETpro and other non-Christians: Perhaps you could share some other examples of common disagreements between Group A Christians? Just to help illustrate the point.

JimTurner's avatar

This has always baffled me. There are so many religions inside of the Christian belief that it seems they are always at odds with one another. I’ve heard some preach against another branch slyly in the Sunday pulpit to induce comic release on their parishioners. As to say my Jesus is better than your Jesus.

Seek's avatar

@ninjacolin

Catholics baptize children in infancy, with a sprinkling or touching of water on the head. Baptists baptize those of an age to make the decision themselves, using full immersion. Pentecostals baptize, using full immersion and the phrase “I baptize you in the name of Jesus Christ”, anyone who is old enough to make the decision (usually 7 or older) unless a small child “receives the Holy Ghost” – meaning they’ve had their first experience speaking in tongues. My former pastor’s grandson, for example, was baptized when he was four. I was ten. My uncle was 47.

zenvelo's avatar

I personally account for the differences in belief between Group A Christians as intellectual weakness and ignorance. And a fundamental ignorance of spirituality and lack of understanding of how sacred texts communicate with a seeker.

KNOWITALL's avatar

From what I see, Christians try to do what they’re told is ‘right’ and obey the ‘rules’ to the best of their ability to attain Heaven, be good people, etc… I believe that God gave us a brain to think with and I’m going to use it for that regardless of what I’m told I’m supposed to believe about anything.

How uncomfortable is it to talk about some issues with Christians where we disagree, like SSM? VERY. When a preachers son I worked with told me his church converted homosexuals to hetero’s and prayed them straight, it really hurt my heart because I feel that God makes us in His perfect image and I don’t think it’s a choice.

It’s pretty difficult but I would never call them weak or ignorant like @zenvelo, rather I would say they are misguided and pray for them. :)

zenvelo's avatar

There is a profound religious misconception that we must all obey certain rules if we want God to love us. Yet that is an understanding of a less than loving God. God already loves us, just as we are, God just wants us to be happy and offers suggestions on how to be happiest.

So when there are religious zealots that pit one set of rules against another, they actually do a disservice to God and miss the point.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@zenvelo I don’t know, my God is a loving Father but also a God that can punish, like he did to Pharoah, so rules are kinda important imo. What those rules are is the problem, we interpret His words and rules and are wrong I’m sure.

I’d never cheat on my husband or get divorced but plenty of Christians do, so they’re supposed to repent sincerely and never do it again. Same with lots of other things.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

Disagreement among humans is not necessarily a religious topic, but one that could be illustrated in any human endeavor. Perhaps religions disagree about what’s best in a similar manner that the sciences disagree about what’s best. For instance, each energy industry believes they are pursuing the superior form of energy, be it gas fracking, oil drilling, solar, nuclear. Those industries exist because many scientists, and many consumers alike, feel that particular energy source is best for them at the time and in the way they need it.

Why should religion be any different? Just because one isn’t completely right, doesn’t mean they’re all completely wrong.

JimTurner's avatar

@KNOWITALL says “I don’t know, “MY GOD…...

Here we go again with someone saying their Christian God is different than another Christian God and bragging that their God is better than someone else’s.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

@JimTurner What words did @KNOWITALL use to make you think she’s bragging?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JimTurner That is my pov of my God as an explanatory statement about my relationship ONLY, it was in no way starting something or bragging honey. Geesh, angry much?

JimTurner's avatar

@KNOWITALL Angry about what?. I’m merly stating that the term My God means that your God is different than someone elses as I said.

Anger is not the issue.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

But what made you think she was bragging?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JimTurner Let me simplify this, that’s not what I meant and I’m sorry if you took it that way.

JimTurner's avatar

@JimTurner It’s exactly what you meant. I just caught you on it.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

I’ve heard it said, that all religions are pretty much the same.

They just disagree about the nature of God, salvation, the afterlife, free will, works, atonement, judgement, and how we should treat our fellow man.

But other than that, it’s pretty much a wash.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

I’m really confused @JimTurner. What did you catch @KNOWITALL on?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@ETpro You pontificating or what? lol

ETpro's avatar

I knew popcorn was a good idea. :-)

@KNOWITALL Yeah, but @ninjacolin asked me to. OP rules. Sorry.

@ninjacolin Perhaps the disagreement that is most important is how, exactly, one is supposed to get to Heaven. There are those that claim that some particular one of the following is the way, then there are others who say that a certain combination is needed, and there is no agreement on what that combination is. Salvation is by:
•   &nbsp &nbsp Faith
•   &nbsp &nbsp Baptism with a sprinkling of holy water
•   &nbsp &nbsp Baptism requiring full immersion in water
•   &nbsp &nbsp Baptism in the Holy Spirit
•   &nbsp &nbsp Believing Jesus is the Son of God, rose from the dead…
•   &nbsp &nbsp Repentance of sins and asking forgiveness
•   &nbsp &nbsp Good works and prayer
•   &nbsp &nbsp Predestined election by God

It goes on and on from there. Transubstantiation versus the sacraments being symbolic. What day should we rest? How should we pray. Is the age of miracles gone? Should everybody speak in tongues. Is faith healing better than modern medicine? How aggressively are we to evangelize. How about Dominionism or the Prosperity Gospel? “Ask and it will be given unto you, pressed down, shaken together and running over.” Some say that means if you ask to be a millionaire you will become one. Others say you should give the million away if you get it.

Now certainly humans squabble about everything they do. But when we discuss the Christian God we are talking about a professed belief in a being who is Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omniexistent, and Omnibenevolent. Any being that would satisfy that list of attributes should certainly be able to make it clear to His people what they are actually supposed to be doing to please him.

JimTurner's avatar

@ETpro said “God should be able to make it clear to His people what they are actually supposed to be doing to please him”.

Yes but man knows there is more money to be made if each church comes up with their own rules telling the congregation that their way is the best way.

The division gives people the false assumption that they are better than not only the other churches and denominations but also those so called sinners who never show up on Sunday to put a penny in the pot.

dxs's avatar

Because the Bible was written thousands of years ago in a culture much different than today.
We can’t even translate it into English accurately, so that’s the first problem. Some Christians say the millennia-old customs in the bible should relate to today, and some say we should only focus on the bigger message. Those are the fundamentalists vs. the modern Christians, respectively.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@dxs I like that!

DWW25921's avatar

Personally, I can’t account for anyone else. It troubles me that there are so many “denominations” under the banner of Christianity. Some are true to the Bible while others are out there. People within their own “bubble of thought” tend to get intrenched into those views. Such is the case of any organization where there are people. There are many different kinds of Republicans, for example. Some are moderate and some are hard core while others are just plain nuts! The same can be said for the Democrats.

The problem isn’t the Bible or going to church. The problem is people understand the Bible differently in different churches. No organization run by people is going to be perfect no matter how well written the directions are. Our constitution is a good example of this as well. Folks argue and bicker over what this means or that. It’s very disheartening and counterproductive.

whitenoise's avatar

We all see different when we look out our windows, despite having the same view. We all hear different when we listen to the same music.

When we interpret the world, we make sense of what we see, in line with our own beliefs and experiences. The same goes for the bible, especially since that book is rather ambiguous to begin wiith.

I couldn’t belief in a God that dictates good and evil. Largely because I think we are all reponsible to find our own morals and strive for good. The old testament God would be impossible for me to worship…

The view of Jesus…. forgiving and showing that as a man he was looking at himself for moral responsibility, while postponing judgement works a lot better for me. The idea that at Pentacost the wholy ghost was shared with mankind to offer direct insight into good and evil – say ‘a way to God’ – aligns with my idea that we ourselves are reponsible for our own moral definitions and don’t need to look at others or a book for that, blindly.

My interpretation of the bible would be totally different of the one made by my old school teachers who believed we all were bad and needed the threat of punishment all the time.

In that sense… May God be like music and we all hear something different despite listening to the same song at the same time?

KaY_Jelly's avatar

I hope you have the time for this..LOL :)

As a Christian person I personally have many questions for God. Maybe unlike some others I search for answers in the bible and other places.

I ask questions and search for answers constantly. I also have to come to a set of logical explanations as to why I believe in what I do. Each time I set my self up for failure of the Christian religion I actually believe that the conclusion I have come to is even more solid for me than it was before I set myself up to fail. Is it divine intervention? I can’t say for sure, but it is nice to say that it is. ;)

Logically, I also know that the bible was written in Jesus’s time so that was a different time back then and very barbaric and if anyone wants to read some amazingly really long lol historical material they should read The Annals by Tacitus this evens describes and backs up history in the bible, even mentions ‘Christus’ and backs up with the bible so instead of you going through the Annals searching for it let me give it to you here highlighted and easy to read and so something historical like this helps me understand the time frame and the mindset of Jesus and therefore helps me to recognize what things were said and maybe even why, I suppose. Maybe this doesn’t work for everyone, but it works for me.

We can logically beat this until we are blue in the face.

Something exists.
You do not get something from nothing.
Therefore, a necessary and eternal Being exists, to say otherwise is self defeating.

So now I think of myself as a vessel, well I am not that super special so don’t count on giving a remark to that :P because well IMHO we are all vessels of God, and all this information I just gave, can be chosen to be looked at with eyes wide shut or looked upon with wide eyes open.

On the other hand maybe Satan is taking over and the ‘choice’ in non belief you thought you had, really isn’t a ‘choice’ at all or something like that. :/

Ex-Illuminati Member Reveals All.
Satanism controlling the music industry.

Seek's avatar

If Satan is running the music industry, why are all the black metal artists I know broke and homeless, whilst the people winning Grammies are always thanking God?

ETpro's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr If God is omnipotent and running the Universe what the hell difference does the zeitgeist of Palestine under Roman rule have to do with ANYTHING in the Bible. That is such an illogical piece of Christian apologetics, and yet we hear it again and again.

Seek's avatar

I’d also like to point out that Tacitus was born in 56 AD. in France. His final “annals” in which he mentions Christus, was not written until 116 AD.

Him writing a historically accurate account of Jesus is like me writing a historically accurate account of Finland vs. Russia conflicts of World War II.

And, like the Bible, we don’t have the original document. The oldest copy we have is from the 11th century, and was written by a monk.

KaY_Jelly's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr LOL. Thanking God? Did you even watch the video? Probably not, so then don’t comment about it. If that is at all true, Lucifer is their ‘God.’
The word “God” has many meanings you should know that it doesn’t always have to apply to the Christian God.
Let’s not forget the Nicki Minaj satanic display at the Grammy’s, and before that show she walked in arm and arm with the pope!
Whitney Houston was a human sacrifice it’s simple just add it all up.
Tell me why the Police, DHS Target Christians and we are now perceived as threats and on the top of the list might I add along with the Klan and Muslim extremists! Don’t believe it? Watch this

Anyway Tacitus died 120 AD so he wasn’t dead yet when he wrote the Annals and so let’s do the math! How old would that make Tacitus then?? Come on I know you have it in you. And how old are you? And unless you are going to tell me over 69, then the accounts you have not encountered would be nothing like what Tacitus would have encountered.

@ETpro I said it works for me, not for everyone…or did you miss that part????

Someone please remind me DNFTT.

whitenoise's avatar

@KaY_Jelly
Re
“Something exists.
You do not get something from nothing.
Therefore, a necessary and eternal Being exists”

Not necesarilly so… It could very well be that such a thing/being existed but no longer does…

Seek's avatar

Kay – The point is that he was born well after the events occurred, and wrote about them eighty years after. Now, he also doesn’t mention his sources, but even if he did, the source would have had to be almost a hundred years old in order to be an adult eyewitness at the time. A hundred. In the first century AD. Not likely. Thus his source is most likely at least a generation removed from the actual event. And probably further than that. Bear in mind – Tacitus was a historian, not a reporter. And historical records back then were widely up for interpretation. He wasn’t keeping a chronology of current events, he was recording stuff he read somewhere, and rumours, and guesses as to what might have happened to spark the rumours.

Even if I were 69 years old, I still wouldn’t be old enough to be an eyewitness to Finland’s conflicts in WWII. For one, I was born in NYC, US, and I would have been… four years old in 1942. Which still beats Tacitus by 20 years.

AdamF's avatar

A nice summary regarding Tacitus, and what we can and cannot conclude from his writings.

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Tacitus

With respect to “You do not get something from nothing”. A relevant lecture by a cosmologist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EilZ4VY5Vs

KaY_Jelly's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr Oh I see. So you weren’t talking about the fact that he was well into his 60’s and could of made mistakes. My apologies, for the misinterpretation. Instead you are attacking his character as a historian. Do you really think as a ‘historian’ he would be writing rumors down? Why does the bible correlate with his story? And what’s the point of Pontius Pilate making a mockery of Christus on the cross?

That’s not good enough for you I know. But what about others who mention Jesus also and back the story up? A great name would be Josephus who was born in 37 and the crucifixion of Jesus was some time between 26 and 37.

Josephus writes:

” 3.Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross,[9] those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day;[10] as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”
~The Antiquities of the Jews by, Josephus, Book XVIII

So now tell me, is World War II just a rumor? I have stories from my husband’s grandfather who was a pilot during World War II.

My own father born in 1937 he was 3 when Germany bombed his city of Rotterdam he spent the first part of his life in muddy trenches. Are these just rumors?

Oh and I said over 69 which I actually specified the over part so not 69 be 70 beat him by 5 years at least. At least then that time frame could at least correlate with Josephus.

Seek's avatar

Do you really think as a ‘historian’ he would be writing rumors down?

Yes. That is exactly what I think. And what many if not most scholars think, according to the link posted by @AdamF, which corroborates everything I said in my above comment.

Josephus was either not alive or a toddler when the crucifixion supposedly happened. His account is also not an eyewitness account. Either way, our discussion is currently about Tacitus, and you are engaging in changing of the goalposts.

Again, regarding Tacitus:

He was not alive at the time of the crucifixion, in fact was born 25 years after.
He does not cite his sources.
He did not live in the area.
He did not write the account until ninety years after the occurrence.
He refers to Pilate as a procurator, when he was a prefect.
The only copy we have of the account was written by a monk a thousand years later.

Thus, apart from confirmation bias, there is no good reason to use Tacitus’ writings as a primary account of the historicity of Jesus.

KaY_Jelly's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr Oh don’t talk to me about logic! I’m just about done with your charades. I find it highly classic that you think you hold authority on this because about 2 posts ago it was you who was engaging in changing of the goal post, little miss World War II.

Next if you are not willing to look at all accounts of Jesus in that time, then we are done because this is just another way for you to try take control of the conversation.

The fact is that I did use Tacitus in my initial comment there are also others I could of used.

Your only points out here actually are no better than a supposed Christian extremist, because I feel like when you attack my every move you are on the hunt for new recruitment because you are faithfully faithful.

And yet Christians are at the top of the list viewed as extreme, I left one comment of which I actually stated “Maybe this doesn’t work for everyone, but it works for me.”

No recruiting there.

And I can get all ad hominemey if you’d like but let’s just consider this an impolite jester of my personality.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@KaY_Jelly I can assure you that Satan is not running the music industry. :)

Seek's avatar

Your entire post is an ad hominem, as you argued against my character instead of my argument.

In case you need documentation to support that assertion, you’ll find it here

KaY_Jelly's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr Going off course again I see. What is it that you’d really like to talk about? Because I’m seriously questioning your motives everytime you pipe in at any one of my ‘Christian’ comments. What was the topic supposed to be again? I thought you said you wanted to talk only about Tacitus?!

Gimme a break.

@KNOWITALL You can’t assure me. Define “running the music industry”?

There are well known songs Mr.Crowley, The Destroyer these are songs that I know of.
Satan is in popular culture here is a more compiled list.

Things the devil likes are dominating the music and entertainment industry, greed, hate, lust, power..etc etc.

JimTurner's avatar

@KaY_Jelly You may find this video series interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4g_diStlSqM

KNOWITALL's avatar

@KaY_Jelly I’ve worked in the music industry over ten years and I’ve seen no sign of the devil at work in any way, and I’m pretty vigilant.

I love Devil Went Down to Georgia but I don’t worship him or anything, it’s just a song.

Sometimes people want the attention from being associated with the devil, darkness, etc…like Marilyn Manson.

And lest we forget there are many Christian rock bands like Stryper that wear tight pants and look like rock stars. POD, you wouldn’t know they were Christian by looking at them.

Peace.

Seek's avatar

Ha! Stryper. I had one of their albums. Still might, actually. I’m not sure. Them’s some cheesy-lookin’ dudes.

I much prefer Place of Skulls, if we’re getting into Jesus metal.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr To Hell With the Devil…lol, black and yellow leotards..hawt.

My uncle did reviews for a Christian rock magazine and was totally into it. And Petra, and Amy Grant. I’ll check out Place of Skulls.

Seek's avatar

It’s Doom metal. One of the musicians from Pentagram – Victor Griffin – found religion and formed Place of Skulls. I particularly like the album on which Scott “Wino” Weinrich makes an appearance. Wino is a legend, and a very, very cool guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIdH0Aec-Cg

dxs's avatar

@KaY_Jelly
All this information I just gave, can be chosen to be looked at with eyes wide shut or looked upon with wide eyes open.
I’m not going to let someone without accreditation sway me on such a complex topic. Have you studied quantum physics? I haven’t, so I can’t support his claim that quantum physics proves something came from nothing. I’d have to believe him, and that requires faith. But even in my minimal amount of knowledge, I located a flaw in his argument. At about 3:03, all he does is express his opinion on how he thinks someone’s idea is morbid but doesn’t go on to express anyone’s reasoning behind either person’s argument.
I didn’t look at the Illuminati article since I have no idea what the hell the Illuminati are, but that last link was tremendously illogical. I won’t waste my time further trying to break that video down. I didn’t even watch all of it, but that’s just plain cruel to think that Whitney Houston was a human sacrifice. What ever happened to not believing everything on the internet? I’m skeptical of real-life information as well. Questioning leads to understanding.

Sorry for being off-topic. I don’t want to say anything further here, so if you want to respond, PM me.

ninjacolin's avatar

great discussion guys!

@KaY_Jelly vs @KNOWITALL:
The devil controls the music industry vs. Naw, not really.

I’m picking on you guys now but only out of love, here we go:

Two Christians, both professing to have God’s help in understanding the scriptures and stuff.
Two divergent conclusions.

If God is helping you both why doesn’t he allow you to agree on this or on any other disagreement within the matters of faith? What makes the other Christian’s understandings any less God-guided? It’s plain to see that you both mean well. But why aren’t you brought to the exact same conclusions on such important matters? Must the truth be that one of you is less God-guided than the other?

And I’m asking this in a non-personal way. What does the potential for divergence in matters of faith suggest about God’s ability to guide people in understanding these matters? And/Or what does that potential suggest about the well-intentioned individuals who diverge on such matters?

(To illustrate the whole “not taking it too personal” thing, consider: Why doesn’t the Pope and @KaY_Jelly agree on everything?)

Is one of you more possessed by the Devil and than the other? Is that what it means?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@ninjacolin Wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been accused of that by another theist, but Kay and I are cool, we’re friends who can disagree. I think…lol

Listen, thing is, I don’t go to church often, I can drink a beer or a glass of wine with no guilt, I can love gay people and as long as God is cool with me, I don’t really care what anyone thinks, even fellow theists.

KaY_Jelly's avatar

@ninjacolin

@KNOWITALL is correct we are friends and we can disagree. :)

@ninjacolin I can’t really tell you what it means. Maybe it doesn’t mean that at all, maybe it just means that God is more prominent in one of our lives more for now than the other for the time being.

We aren’t brought to the same conclusions because God gave us choice.

I personally do not think that everyone is cut out for the job of trying to promote a religion but then some people just are and when they talk you just get it and in my case when it happened to me after a series of events, I wished it didn’t. I still find myself trying to trump God, never works btw.

But religion is just a way for people to gather and have a place to feel connected.

Some religions have taken their status imo too far I don’t agree with that.

I think that church should be a place to worship not delegate rules on people. I feel like some religions try to take the place of God and that’s just not right.

I think this all suggests that we are on course. As prophetic as it sounds I do believe God has a plan, that plan is to have His children with Him in the kingdom of heaven and you don’t have to go you can choose another path.

ETpro's avatar

@KaY_Jelly I was not responding to you, so I have no idea what you are talking about in questioning whether I read your post.

If you’d like to reengage is discussion with me, I’d certainly be open to that. I would just ask you to question everything, and not slam others for questioning. As Socrates said, “The life unexamined is not worth living.”

I am open to being shown by evidence that a deity exists and that I should worship that deity. If I ever see sufficient evidence, I will act on it. Faith (the kind religion is based on) is belief without evidence. I will not go there, because those who do can be led to believe anything consistent with their confirmation bias. People who believe in the absence if evidence tend to end up doxastically closed. My questions to them are only designed to encourage them to examine their faith and see if it holds up to scrutiny. I don’t seek to put my beliefs into anyone’s head, just get them to use their own heads till they become doxastically open and adopt beliefs that comport with the evidence before us.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Kay I agree some churches & people try to usurp God’s authority & judgement. Living for God can be happy! It should be

KaY_Jelly's avatar

@ETpro Under what authority do you hold the position to #1 say to me that “I would just ask you to question everything, and not slam others for questioning.”

First of all I wasn’t slamming others, I left my first comment I also left my first comment filled with my personal POV in a non judgmental manner of which I even tagged it as being my own personal choice.

How dare you judge my moral standards! and then feel my attitude is unacceptable to your standards when it is apparent that my ‘attitude’ is only unacceptable to people who are unwilling to accept that I do have an opinion and a choice and when they can’t accept that, yeah sorry my attitude changes a bit, no different than the attitude you would give a Christian extremist who keeps knocking on your door, or the LDS who try to recruit a family member.

You may not agree with me, but stop trying to change it because it’s not going to happen.

Bold statement. I WALK WITH THE LORD.

Anytime I come out here and leave a comment on Christianity of which my initial comments are filled with nothing but my own personal opinions.

And almost always there are those who jump on my back.

I won’t name names but there are those who are faithfully faithful everytime!

I’ve never seen a Christian out here attack anyone so much as this for their beliefs.

My questions to them are only designed to encourage them to examine their faith…

Well la di da! That’s classic recruitment style right there. And Christians are extremists?

And wait for it folks here’s the best line:

I don’t seek to put my beliefs into anyone’s head,

just get them to use their own heads till they become doxastically open and adopt beliefs that comport with the evidence before us.

^ But that is your belief!!!!!!! Or non belief or whatever you want to refer to it as. As I said already we can logically beat this until we are blue in the face.

But wait the irony here is that you want me to be open to this, and that you continue to push this upon Christians or others who aren’t ‘using their own head’ by continuing to use the varying different positive and negative reinforcement styles as you have displayed here, this isn’t personal, again just another opinion, but it’s very cultish to me and logically insane, not everyone is a genius.

And you are suggesting that people, some of who have very minimal education, relate to logical fallacy when it comes to choosing their faith? Ok.

Why are my moral standards on your personal agenda or any of your business anyway?

ETpro's avatar

@KaY_Jelly It doesn’t take authority to ask for something, it takes authority to make someone else comply. Not to worry, I’m issuing no threats and if you don’t want to engage me that’s fine with me. But I do think I have the right to say how I will engage in discussion and how I won’t. I think all of us have that right.

I also believe I have the right to judge other people’s moral standards. The rule of law would not exist if that were not possible. But fact is nothing in my reply to you DID judge your moral standards, and the tone of your reaction is judgmental of mine. So if we are to engage in any discussion, help me understand how that might happen. This exchange leaves me confused.

Why are my moral standards on your personal agenda or any of your business anyway? I don’t even know what your moral standards are. I would imagine they are fine. I’ve never accused you of being an evil person. And as to what’s my business, let me remind you that you jumped in here commenting on a response to you when my answers had noting to do with you. You made me your business, not the other way around. Why did you do that if it bothers you so much to even have a conversation with me?

Paradox25's avatar

Well, as a former Christian who still believes there’s likely an afterlife and a supreme intelligent creator of sorts I can only answer this question within limit. Your question was actually one of the first concepts that I had thought of too when I first started to question my own religion, and what you have implied above was the start of the end for me accepting any religion as having absolute authority. I started out as a Catholic, and then switched to Protestantism by the way.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@KaY_Jelly Just remember, when you feel attacked here, you do not have to respond. I know it’s hard, but sometimes it’s better than being purposefully antagonized to the point you get upset. :) I’m trying to do better with that myself on this site.

Seek's avatar

Don’t worry. Probably won’t be a whole lot of activity on questions like this anymore.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr I saw that, what a shame. I thought for the most part that it was a real learning experience, it was for me anyway. :(

ninjacolin's avatar

^^ Sorry, why not? I didn’t see it. What was I supposed to see?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@ninjacolin Auggie said something about all the religious questions would be under the old questions, not taking new ones or something like that. I believe it was about the motivation of such questions being in question, like just to start preaching at people or being pro-atheist and bashing others. It’s in the ‘Ask an Atheist’ question.

Paradox25's avatar

Religious and theology related questions will still be allowed from what I had gathered. Wasn’t the issue being that certain questions were being repeated, and having the same intention while being re-worded differently? Am I wrong?

ETpro's avatar

The questions were NOT being repeated. The question they deleted was “What does faith mean when used as in faith in a deity and that deity’s teachings?” Search and see how many times that has been asked. The count was 1, but is now 0.

The thing is I had asked at least 20 questions about religion. The thrust of each was to open eyes to contradictions in religions premises. That’s what is prohibited. They labeled it “propaganda”, and by the original definition of the word, so it is. But by that definition, just about every Jelly who has been here for any extended period or time is guilty of propaganda. By the definition currently understood for propaganda, the Fluther mods are WAY off base. Pravda or the DPRK News I am not. I share NOTHING in common with Paul Joseph Goebbels past being a human male.

That’s why I am outta here. I’ll just follow threads I am already in. If you care to follow this line of Socratic questioning, catch me at Quora under user name James Hollomon. I leave with no ill will toward Fluther. I just think they are setting their sails to become Fluffier.

KaY_Jelly's avatar

Remember that time not long ago when I was talking about ‘The Annals’ and Christianity and then @ETpro you had to ‘pretend’ I didnt exist (which you said in another post somewhere already that you would do) and then you say:

“If God is omnipotent and running the Universe what the hell difference does the zeitgeist of Palestine under Roman rule have to do with ANYTHING in the Bible. That is such an illogical piece of Christian apologetics, and yet we hear it again and again.”

Please tell me who this comment was meant to be about??? I know who it was adressed to but who’s initial comment are you critiquing?
Let me remind you this is a very open and public forum. I am the only one who mentioned all the things you critiqued. So I know you were talking about me.

It doesn’t actually bother me the critique part, but I still would like to know why you can judge me and my comment and my apparent morals which I stated boldly and are pretty obvious from the get go and the obvious comment you made about it being an illogical piece of Christian apologetics but I cannot judge you?

It’s like the highest level of oxy moronic-ism. It’s like talking at me. It’s literally talking in front of me, behind my back.

And if I am wrong I am apologizing now.

ETpro's avatar

@KaY_Jelly Deliberately disengaging from a debate because you realize the other party is doxastically closed and further debate will only harden their position is not pretending to know what you don’t know, it is acting on what you do observe.

My comment about the zeitgeist of Roman Palestine was made here and was in answer to this comment by @Seek_Kolinahr in reference to your statement immediately above hers where you wrote:

“Logically, I also know that the bible was written in Jesus’s time so that was a different time back then and very barbaric and if anyone wants to read some amazingly really long lol historical material they should read The Annals by Tacitus this evens describes and backs up history in the bible, even mentions ‘Christus’ and backs up with the bible so instead of you going through the Annals searching for it let me give it to you here highlighted and easy to read and so something historical like this helps me understand the time frame and the mindset of Jesus and therefore helps me to recognize what things were said and maybe even why, I suppose. Maybe this doesn’t work for everyone, but it works for me.”

As to how the universe got here, can you think of any possible way other than it being created by one particular triune God?

Paradox25's avatar

I wasn’t aware of what caused the argument because I’m not on here everyday. I had only read a post from a moderator on here explaining the position from their angle. I guess this explains the protest questions now. I had never heard of Quora, but after looking at your link it looks like you can sign in with a google account, which I have. I’ll have to check it out.

ETpro's avatar

@Paradox25 I think you will find it very intellectually stimulating. I don’t know how many people there will share your specific interests, but I will bet that given their large membership, you’ll find more than you enjoy here. But you’ll also find plenty of posters fully capable of taking you to the intellectual woodshed if you post something that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

Let me know when you arrive there. I’ll look forward to following you.

Seek's avatar

Fair warning – equal proportions of obtuse round-talkers as well.

ETpro's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr When you locate the alternate universe without any of them, let me know.

Paradox25's avatar

@ETpro Well I’m pretty much done debating sceptics on the paranormal or survival of death for the time being. I’m reasonably certain in my own mind based upon my personal experiences, the experiences of others I have known as well as the research I had read about that we likely survive physical death. However, outside of a few ideas floating around from scientists who agree with me on this, I don’t even have a hypothesis on how the phenomena could be possible without dwelving into the transcendental realms.

I also had a bit of a fallout from people within my own paranormal groups. I had brought up tough questions on why physical mediumship seances were done in the dark, especially considering the many frauds caught over the years. The excuses for not even allowing infrared recording equipment did not satisfy me, and I had other deeper questions but I won’t touch on those here. It also apears that most mediums (especially the mental/trance mediums) are more interested in obtaining money, fame and fortune over proving the validity of their mediumship using a respectable scientific protocol.

I guess as the story goes without no physical mediumship demonstrations being allowed to be done in the light or recorded using infrared recording equipment, without no big time mediums passing any respectable scientific protocols, with the evidence for psi only being slightly above chance during certain protocols, without no positive results achieved during the Sam Parnia NDE/OBE experiments, without a willingness to confront the New Age blabble contaminating psi research and with anecdotals being vitually worthless I have very little to debate sceptics on, though I still feel they’re wrong on this topic.

I’m not sure which types of people Quora attracts, but I won’t be discussing the topics I had mentioned above anymore except within my own small private pro-paranormal group that hasn’t abandoned me for my criticisms. PZ Meyers appears to have an intense site too pertaining to religion and theology, but the userbase on there appears to be a bunch of assholes.

ETpro's avatar

@Paradox25 I can imagine how frustrating the subject must be to anyone who actually asks for solid empirical evidence. Witness the fact there is a $1 million Randi prize sitting out there to be claimed by the first medium who proves their ability in a properly scientifically controlled experiment, and the money sits unclaimed.

Quora has a topic labeled Paranormal Research. It has 83 followers. I have yet to interact with any of them, so I have no idea how serious they are about the topic, or whether their minds are muddled with New Age woo-woo. Paranormal Activity has 3,756 followers. I’d guess the former would be the category most likely to contain people really interested in research.

To put that in perspective with other topics, Religion has 99,951 and Psychology has 627,127.

Paradox25's avatar

The psi and survival hypothesis movement has been completely contaminated by conspiracy theorists, pseudomedicine proponents, new age gurus, self-help scammers and the like. I also feel people like Zammit have hurt the movement more than helped it too. These counter challenges to sceptical challenges are ridiculous since it’s up to the alternative hypothesis to prove the null wrong, not the other way around, and the null hypothesis states that the brain generates sentience, and that physical brain death would be the end of all sentience.

I also feel that Zammit telling mediums he’s confident with being legit not to take any sceptical challenges is counter intuitive. He has been rather unpleasant even with other pro psi folks who had choosen to be sceptical on some things too. I don’t think he realizes that his certainty of mediums or events being legit means squat scientifically. Victor being sure doesn’t count as proof, even to me, let alone to much more sceptical people than myself. He has helped bring attention to the issue of survival as far as the general populace is concerned, but he’s also preventing the issue from being taken seriously in the mainstream science community. It’s going to take more than David Thompson seances performed in the dark and Michelle Whitedove lifetime tv demonstrations to get the issue taken more seriously Victor.

There’s also a great deal of dishonesty and misinformation coming from my side too. I had found quite a few holes in many of the anecdotals I had read about, which happened to be conveniently left out by the authors. There’s also a great deal of contradictions in many of the secular afterlife books I had read too, but yet in order to make money (it appears) people on my side have been promoting them nevertheless. Like I had said above it appears that most on my side of the fence are more interested in fame and money vs getting the issue taken seriously.

To be honest though I kind of don’t give a hoot about mental/trance mediums or psychics passing any scientifically controlled experiments. Zener cards and random event generators don’t mean squat to me either. What I really want to see is the phenomena of physical mediumship, especially materialization mediumship recorded in lighted conditions.

A man by the name of Mike Gantley in England has already headed the project to have a laboratory built specifically for the purpose of recording materializations using infrared recording equipment. Apparently mediums need permission from their guides on the ‘other side’ before doing anything, and when the specific medium in question gets the go ahead then the demonstrations will occur. This is supposed to occur within the next five years, but I’m sceptical because of the excuses in the past. We’ll see what happens, but I’m done here since I’ve taken ninja’s thread way off topic. I won’t be talking about the paranormal on Quora if I do join it.

ETpro's avatar

@Paradox25 Understood. Waiting is.

JimTurner's avatar

@KNOWITALL I have found that at the end of the day you and I can disagree and not hold any grudges amongst each other.

If you take a look at this article and video you must agree that it is very far from anything Christian related.

I am posting this to you not for an argument but because I have grown to respect your opinion.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/27/aj-mccarron-grammy-evil_n_4673900.html

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JimTurner Thanks, I appreciate the compliment and agree.

The thing is, Jim, you can look for anything and find it. Was Katy doing witchcraft onstage during the grammy’s, probably not. Do some people think that’s what they saw, probably.

A long time ago I decided not to ever live in fear and that’s how I choose to live, because I know God is on my side if it fit’s into His greater plan. So basically I call bs on that article personally.

JimTurner's avatar

@KNOWITALL Well let’s hear what Katy Perry has to say:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10rx15v28yk

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JimTurner I think that was said ‘tongue in cheek’, meaning she went secular (as she was talking about a theist background and Amy Grant.) To some theists secular music can be seen as bad, evil or anti-God.

Personally, and I readily admit this to everyone, I love death metal and thrash, all kinds of music and I don’t feel it takes away from my relationship with God or my christianity one iota. If there’s a word I don’t feel good about singing, I skip it and move on if I personally interpret it to be ‘wrong’.

Example of a controversial lyric:

“Man In The Box”

I’m the man in the box
Buried in my shit
Won’t you come and save me, save me

Feed my eyes, can you sew them shut?
Jesus Christ, deny your maker
He who tries, will be wasted
Feed my eyes now you’ve sewn them shut

JimTurner's avatar

@KNOWITALL Well there isn’t much Christianity in what you just wrote and I’m sorry you felt the need to share that verse on a public forum.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JimTurner Because like most people and some christians you interpret things without doing real thinking with that brain of yours. Feel free to keep coming at me and I’ll continue to school you, no problem.

Jesus Christ, deny your maker”
-“He who tries, will be wasted”
I believe this paragraph to be read as simple as it is written.
Help me… Can you sow my eyes shut? I don’t want to see the evil anymore.
I now know that when you deny Jesus Christ, your maker, you will be wasted.

KaY_Jelly's avatar

I don’t really want to chime in here, but I can’t help myself and I can see both sides.

On one hand I can see that if a person is right with God then they won’t be influenced but on the other hand there are those who imho that are vulnerable.

Death metal can be influential. Imo. I personally don’t think Alice in Chains are ‘death metal’.

Before I accepted God into my heart I had some dark times in my life which I’ve mentioned a small bit of before. I’m not proud of them. In a last dark ceremonial act that I just felt I couldn’t participate in I ran away from that and became an atheist.

During those times we used to listen to death metal. Especially Slayer. If you look Slayer up on Wikipedia you will it says this: “The band’s lyrics and album art, which cover topics such as serial killers, necrophilia, Satanism, religion, anti-religion and warfare, have generated album bans, delays, lawsuits and criticism from religious groups and the public.”

Now, I do not listen to this group anymore because I choose not to support the negativity and it also does not represent a good time in my life and so God came to me and now I’m a Christian, who’d a thunk it.

ninjacolin's avatar

@KNOWITALL said: “most people and some christians you interpret things without doing real thinking”
and @KaY_Jelly said: “On one hand I can see that if a person is right with God then they won’t be influenced but on the other hand there are those who imho that are vulnerable.”

To clarify, in your view those “others” are vulnerable and/or not thinking clearly and those weaknesses in them are at the source of their not agreeing with you about God and the scriptures.. Right?

Like you, @KaY_Jelly, I can’t always help myself when a good conversation is brewing and/or a critique of a conclusion comes across my mind. Please bear with me:

I’ve listened to the comments in this thread and of course I grew up christian and we always believed there was a difference between “real” Christians and other christians. Only lately have I had the freedom to explore the concept and I think I see a problem with it.

On one hand, we’re told that God helps you see the truth. But on the other hand multiple groups of “Christians” who wholeheartedly profess to having and understanding that Truth ALSO disagree with others who make the same claim.

So, two questions:

1) Why isn’t God’s revelation of Truth congruent under peer review between like-minded, faithful and truth seeking followers who each profess to have found God’s truth?

2a) How could I, as a Christian, be certain that my understanding of God’s truth is accurate when you, another Christian, disagree with the interpretation He bestowed onto me?

2b) How could you, as a Christian, be certain that your understanding of God’s truth is accurate when I, another Christian, completely disagree with the interpretation He allegedly bestowed onto you?

KaY_Jelly's avatar

@ninjacolin: “To clarify, in your view those “others” are vulnerable and/or not thinking clearly and those weaknesses in them are at the source of their not agreeing with you about God and the scriptures.. Right?”

Answering this for myself, I would have to say not really. When I say ‘vulnerable’ that doesn’t really mean they don’t agree with me about God or the scriptures. This could be people like me who had no faith in my household as I grew up but for a few times to go to church and get baptized. I should also clarify that I had no understanding of God I knew of Him but I didn’t understand any of it and going to an Anglican church twice didn’t make it any better so then in my teens I started listening to ‘death metal’ and my life was influenced negatively as that drew me into a world I never knew existed.

My belief is if you have accepted God then your interpretation is most accurate for what He has bestowed on you. All of our paths in life are different. All I know is that when we open the door to God it’s all footprints in the sand after that.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@KaY_Jelly @ninjacolin One of the reasons I no longer attend church every week is because other Christians try to force their interpretation on my and my life, and judge anything they don’t agree with, which is completely out of line, rude and judgemental.

I can listen to all instrumental thrash and be perfectly happy, reflective, at peace and no harm done. Perhaps Kay listens to that same music and feels depressed, angry and ready to commit murder. That is not the music’s fault.

For me personally, being a Christian doesn’t have to be filled with restrictions and rules that make me miserable. If I want a glass of wine, I’ll have one, and some think that makes me a sinner even when we all know Jesus made and probably drank wine. Humans judging of each other is against Jesus teachings and rather than point fingers at each other, we leave those judgments to God, at least that’s what I do and that allows me to love people different than me without reserve.

The last two weekends I spent time with an LGBT couple who have been emotionally traumatized & abused in a stereotypical southern upbringing. Do my family and friends offer them love without judgment, of course. I told them I was PROUD of them being their authentic selves and hugged them hard. To me, that is the most important thing about my religion, not all the negatives and if that makes me a bad Christian or sends me to hell for eternity, well then that’s what I’ll deal with.

And if I get to Heaven I’ll listen to all the metal I want and maybe head-bang with Jesus, ya’ll don’t know what kind of music He likes. I’m not singing Slayer lyrics either by the way.

KaY_Jelly's avatar

@KNOWITALL I think this is the main reason why I didn’t want to say anything. I was hoping you didn’t feel I was judging you when I was just giving my opinion from past experiences. I only brought up Slayer and death metal because you mentioned death metal and lyrics by Alice in Chains and I was just disagreeing is all.

A song that used to be a favorite of mine from Slayer and as a Christian these lyrics mean nothing good to me which is why the music has a negative vibe for me, my taste in music has not changed but I am a lyric listener and lyrics move me, I’m not the first and I won’t be the last.

Mankind in his insatiable search for divine Knowledge has discarded all biblical teachings Realizing that the strength of religion is the repression of knowledge.
All structures of religion have collapsed Life prays for death in the wake of the horror of these revelations
It was never imagined how graphic the reality that would be known as the end of creation would manifest itself
We believe all this chaos and atrocity can be traced back to one single event.
We hold these truths to be painfully self-evident
All men are not created equal
Only the strong will prosper
Only the strong will conquer
Only in the darkness of Christ have I realized
God Hates Us All.

I definitely was not saying this music makes me feel depressed, angry and ready to commit murder < I am actually taken back by that @KNOWI :(

I was just trying to state imo my pov. I was not trying to judge your choices. Please don’t go on the defensive.

You know me a little bit I think? I am all about equality.

Heck I don’t even eat animals or anything with animals in it because I don’t think God wants us to murder them. I have a 5000$ chocolate coloured italian leather baseball stitch loveseat and chair that was my husband’s that I want to ceremonial burn and put the ashes in an urn, I had to sell the sofa because it wouldnt fit after I had to move once my husband passed, I was not happy about that. No one will help get out the loveseat and chair so I can burn them.

I don’t go to church for the same reason as you.

I was not saying you are a bad Christian..I do not believe that At all just so you know.

I understand all of what you are talking about (except the southern upbringing part) my bff is gay. I am the one who was with him when he told his parents his father shunned him for awhile and it was me who talked to his father, (they love me like a daughter) and his father with talking to realized there was nothing to be ashamed of.

I found out through more talking that it wasn’t really the idea that he was ashamed of he eventually told me he he was upset that his son would not have children and carry the name on.

My friend also wanted a baby. I in good faith decided I would be a great surrogate. We tried and nothing happened.

His sister who was not supposed to be able to get pregnant got, so my friend and I stopped trying.

Not even 8 months after we stopped trying my friend was tested positive for hiv.

Now that I look back imo this is God’s grace on an innocent child. Imagine the life of the child if a cure were never found. My friend now lives on multiple drugs daily and is wasting away.

He is married to a guy who I don’t think is right for him but I stood by their sides on their day and spent a lot of money on an ugly Cinderella dress I’ll never wear again.

BLS-SDMF all way now for me!

KNOWITALL's avatar

@KaY_Jelly We’re good (I hope!), and I didn’t mean you wanted to commit murder (lol) that was referencing all these wackjobs that blame metal for murder not you, sorry if it was written that way doll!!!

I am over being judged by anyone, theist or non, for what makes me happy, that was my point. If God wants to judge me unworthy at judgement, then so be it, but until the LGBT community is accepted at church with love, I won’t feel comfortable there. Not only that but when churches started asking for W2’s and all that, I was completely disillusioned. Church should be about teaching people and loving each other, not taking their money for a new condo for the pastor. You know what I mean, I’m sure.

Anyway, peace to you sweetie, I didn’t mean to get defensive but I did have another user here make some pretty ugly comments about me not being a christian because I like metal and it got me a little riled up…lol, whatever, pretty sure judging each other is a sin, too. :)

KaY_Jelly's avatar

@KNOWITALL It’s ok! Of course we are good. I do not hold grudges. People out here are going to try to push your buttons, I’m not one of them ;) I would prefer to diffuse the situation first, talk things out, I’m not into demeaning and name calling and all that jazz it’s a waste of my time that I’ll never get back, I’m living to be an influential, good, positive person now.

I talk to God all the time. I ask for forgiveness of my sins and for Him to teach me to be a better person everyday because we are all sinners.

Imho, watch out for fallen angels and demons.

I’m sick and drugged up for 6 days now lost 12lbs so far so if you think what I say sounds funny than maybe it is, right now I believe it, but I’ll probably believe it after too. Lol

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