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longgone's avatar

Do our mirror neurons only work on our own species?

Asked by longgone (19560points) May 7th, 2016

I just watched one of Cesar Millan’s videos. He took a sweet dog, locked her in a tiny kennel, jabbed her in the chest for trying to get out, then tied a thin rope around her neck and proceeded to pull that tight, yanking her up on her hindlegs. The dog let everything happen and was utterly miserable.

It got me wondering. If people did to children what Cesar does to dogs, on TV, would that get the same ratings? I’m assuming (hoping) people would be horrified at watching a show like that. Toddlers, all their weight carried by a noose around her neck? Kids locked in cages so tiny they are forced to curl up? Children cowering because they’re afraid of their caregivers?

I know I’d find it very hard to sit through a show like that. It would feel wrong, even without getting the logical part of my brain involved. I’m guessing that feeling is a product of my mirror neurons. Do they not work for other species? If they do, can we learn to shut them out? If we can’t, how do people watch Cesar Millan?

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12 Answers

chyna's avatar

He’s a fucking moron.

Pandora's avatar

Is it a white fluffy dog like in this video, because that is hardly a very sweet dog. The owners probably put it in the kennel because it can’t be trusted around other people.
And children aren’t put in cages but they don’t have fangs that can rip your throat out. I love both dogs and human children and I don’t see anything in this video that is harmful. He’s trying to teach the owners how to control their dog so it doesn’t have to stay in the kennel and can socialize with it’s humans. Staying in an aggressive state isn’t healthy for a dog either.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Thank you @chyna.

Then they need to rehome the dog, @Pandora, not torture it. I think if it is in a dog’s nature to attack that can’t be trained out of them.
My German Shepherd, Dakota is just the opposite. The guy who had her for her first 2 years worked to make her into a vicious attack dog. Well, she got the athletic “attack” part down (she knocked me on my ass once, not long after we got her! She was playing…) but he couldn’t train “vicious” into her, so he got rid of her. She’s too gentle and intelligent for that shit. But she’[ll have your lunch if you actually threaten a person, or an animal, that she views as part of her pack. I’ve seen her in action 3 times in the 10 years that we’ve had her. Scary shit!

I don’t think it can be trained out, either. Not if that’s their nature.

Jak's avatar

I’d like to see the video before pronouncing judgement. I’ve seen Mr Milan a few times and am shocked to hear something like this. I’ve never had anything but a positive impression about him and how he treats animals. Can you link the video please?

Soubresaut's avatar

I have mixed feelings about Millan. (I know this is a bit long—but they’re mixed feelings. They take some space to work out!) I think he’s in tune with dog body language, and I enjoy watching the times that he takes an insecure or fearful dog and bolsters their confidence. He has also helped save many dogs from being put down for aggressive behavior—behavior assumed to be “hard wired” into them, but was really them coping with a various situations— while simultaneously trying to help them work through psychological trauma/discontent. I appreciate his push towards showing people that our communication with our dogs has tremendous influence, and that dogs have complex, nuanced psychology.

But I also wish he would let go of the dominance/submissive theories of dog behavior. He doesn’t need them. (The more the situation veers towards domination the harder time I have watching it, too.) Yes, studies have found that wolves establish a social hierarchy of dominance. However, those studies were of wolves in stressful, confined lab situations. Later studies of wolves (and feral dogs) in more natural settings show them living a more relaxed, familial (for lack of a better term) structure. (Source Live Science article discussing various studies on dog psychology and dog training methods).

More from the article:
Mech has been studying wolves for 50 years now, yet only over the past decade has he gotten a clear picture of these animals in their natural habitats. And what he’s found is far from the domineering behavior popularized by Millan. “In the wild it works just like it does in the human family,” says Mech. “They don’t have to fight to get to the top. When they mature and find a mate they are at the top.” In other words, wolves don’t need to play the “alpha” game to win.

The article also talks about how measures of a dog’s stress and fear hormones are heightened when he/she lives in such punishment/dominance situations. Ironically this makes them more likely to behave aggressively. It goes on to compare the different methods of training—and also to suggest a reason why a dominance method translates so well to the TV, where a more effective, less stressful method doesn’t offer as dramatic a show…

But at the same time, the most dramatic changes we see in Millan’s shows are when he takes a dog to his dog psychology center to socialize with the pack—most of the time, the dog literally just socializes with the pack… and that pack doesn’t have an internal dominance hierarchy. In fact, Millan actively works to prevent such hierarchy from becoming established—all of his pack dogs are at the “same level” with each other, and they get along marvelously. This is probably what frustrates me more than anything—the methods Millan has the most success with seem to be the ones that aren’t dominance. He has control over the situation—and he can read changes in the situation as subtle as a look or tensing of muscles—but that’s not dominance, even though he and his show says it is, and even though that control and perception becomes conflated with overt acts of dominance.

In the article, I feel that author tends to combine “dominance” with “punishment” and “familial” with “positive reinforcement”; while they are separate things, and a more careful discussion breaking down each separately would be useful, I also think it’s probably fair to combine them the way he has. Even if not exact, they do have significant overlap. Humans in positions of dominance tend to lead with more “forceful” methods, and tend to focus on maintaining “control” using such methods—especially when they’re told that’s all a dog “understands”... besides being stressful for the dog, I think such attitudes hugely undercut Milan’s own efforts at getting people to appreciate dog psychology. It makes a dog’s rich inner life seem like a simple computation of “who has more power.”

…A “familial” structure doesn’t need dominance, it has trust and loyalty—which are more “powerful” and reliable.

If you watch Milan with Daddy or Junior—he’s not being the overt dominant character the show promotes. Daddy and Junior are his partners, given a fair amount of autonomy. It’s the mutual trust that makes them such an asset…

And this is why I have such mixed feelings. I think Millan’s taking his own intuitive understanding of dogs, but then overlaying a flawed theory of dog behavior and human concepts of hierarchy… I think his successes come from his own intuitive understanding, but then we are presented with the flawed theories, particularly for aggressive cases.

The show is supposed to present extreme cases. At least, it did in the beginning—“red zone” cases, dogs whose owners were soon going to have to put down because they were such a danger. Millan was the dogs’ last chance. Perhaps such heavy-handed intervention really is necessary to be able to reach these dogs, get them to a state that won’t cause them to be euthanized, get them to a state in which they are calm enough to be worked with. I don’t know. But that being the case, it frustrates me how much everyone acts like that’s the way you “treat dogs.” I don’t think a dog that far whacked out (especially given the studies that show how differently a dog responds to a stressful situation than a normal one) can be used to prove that dogs “need” someone to dominate them. But that’s the “logical” conclusion everyone jumps to, probably because it puts dog behavior on a nice and simple linear gradient for us, probably because it simplifies things for us—if a red-zone dog is just higher up on a gradient of behavior, we can approach every situation in the same way—maybe at different volumes, but the same way. We don’t have to think about how to react.

Millan suggests the red-zone cases show you what happens when your dog is not properly submissive—an ominous image—a way for him to connect his success with the dominance theory. The show presents it as this-is-how-you-handle-your-dog (I don’t care if they have the “don’t try this at home” disclaimer—stepping through the techniques and presenting a theory of dog psychology that says not being the “dominant” might give you a dangerous dog is basically saying “do this at home or else.”) And then viewers, despite not having red-zone case dogs, go ahead and use these techniques on their dogs—because they saw it on TV and it was a simple algorithm so it must be true. And it all frustrates me.

Pandora's avatar

@Dutchess_III In the video Milan isn’t torturing the dog. He is trying to get it to calm down while not getting bit. But the truth is that most dogs with a tendency to bite will often not be rehomed and will be put down. When I got my dog, it was the second time she was returned. Probably because she was a bit of a biter. But I could tell that it was because she was still a puppy and no one had taken the time to teach her. I could also see that although she loved people she was frighten of them and she was a bit aggressive to other dogs at first. At the shelter they were glad to give us to her because they said she needed a calm environment with no other pets. The shelter was a kill shelter. No doubt if I had given up on her she would be gone. They labeled her a biter when she was more of a play nipper.

But she also destroyed anything she could get in her mouth. I can not swear that Milan never mistreated an animal, or that his methods are right on target. But ask a hundred trainers about each others methods and they will all swear the other 99 got it wrong. I do disagree with some of his methods but some of them are not bad. You just have to use common sense when using them.
But everyday, dogs are either put down or released, or injured by their owner because their owners didn’t know or bother to try to teach their dog to be a dog. I love my dog and may even spoil her but like children, they need structure and to feel secure so that they don’t have to feel that they have to be aggressive. And most of the time they need dedicated patient owners.

Unofficial_Member's avatar

So long as it helps the dog we shouldn’t worry needlessly about it. I agree with @Pandora about this. Had there a more efficient technique he surely would have done it.

And for whether or not we should feel the same if that is done to children I can say that each species needs different treatment and we can’t assume that every creature can/needs to be treated the same as human. The most effective way to treat an uncontrollable stallion is to castrate it, now imagine if we use the same method for an uncontrollable man.

Moreover, I think we’ll promote discrimination if we allow our emotion to get the best of us. Many people don’t feel bad when a happy farm-raised chicken is butchered and served as food, but imagine is a happy farm-raised dog is butchered and served as food, many people will have different feeling about it. As if a chicken doesn’t have the same capability for feeling as a dog.

If Cesar Milan didn’t do that because some people deemed that method as cruelty and that dog ended up being put to sleep I bet those who said his method is cruel wouldn’t feel responsible for the dog.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Some things can’t be changed. I would be willing to continue an experiment with a dog if it was just me. But I have grandkids around too often to take the chance.

I loved @Soubresaut comment which, distilled, I read as “Either a dog (or a person) is “alpha” or they’re not.” It doesn’t take an overt display of aggression for that to be established.

Here is a story about my newest grandchild, Cooper, who is 1 today. He met Dakota, the Baby Whisperer, for the first time (that he remembers) two days ago. Dakota is always “alpha”, but shows that in so many different ways:

******************

”....I started to put him down in the kitchen…but then he caught sight of that HUGE WHITE DOG so THAT wasn’t happening. He didn’t know that she’s a Baby Whisperer.
So I sat down on the kitchen floor next to Dakota, who was lying down, all stretched out, with Coops in my lap, and let her do her magic.
She glanced up at him, from her prone position, and tentatively reached out with the tip of her tongue to give him a butterfly kiss…but nope. That wasn’t happening, so she just sighed and put her head back down, not looking at him.
After about 10 seconds Coop got a bit bored because that giant, white furry thing wasn’t doing ANYTHING, so he looked away.

…..........As he was looking away Dakota stood up….........

When Coop looked back around he almost had a heart attack! Since I was sitting on the floor, I could see it from his point of view ~ she just TOWERED over us both, as tall as the house!!! Just HUGE!!!!!!! GODZILLA!!!! He started to freak…. Dakota smiled, and reached out with her giant tongue and gave him a huge, sloppy slurp kiss down the middle of his whole face. Cooper pulled back like, “That is disgusting!”..... And it was done. After that he was enamored with her. He crawled around her, petting her and exploring her, crawling under her when she was standing up, and old Dakota was in heaven.”

*************************

I don’t know how she knows to do exactly what she does when she does it…..She’s just alpha.

Soubresaut's avatar

Thanks, @Dutchess_III

And yeah that’s what I was basically saying. I wanted to say that the whole alpha-dog concept doesn’t really exist for dogs, but I was worried I’d be overstating it, so I wound around a lot of thoughts I had…. Now, though, after doing some more online reading (admittedly from sources that advocate positive training and argue that dominance theory is basically a mistake), I’d probably strengthen my argument to line up with theirs, if for no other reason than it fits better with the experiences I’ve had with dogs… Something never sat right when I tried to interpret their actions as predominantly dominance-based. Victoria Stilwell, whose show I guess started in part as a response to dominance-theory dog training (it’s no longer on the air, I guess), has an article on her website that talks about dominance theory and its issues in a more detailed way, here… I still think Millan’s techniques are somewhat a mixed bag (case example above when he aims to bolster an obviously timid and insecure dog’s confidence), but I disagree (increasingly confidently) with his insistence on framing everything in terms of dominance…. I realize I’ve veered off from what you said, @Dutchess_III, I’m just kind of thinking “aloud” here…

Dutchess_III's avatar

Works! Thinking aloud is kind of what Fluther is all about, I think.

Soubresaut's avatar

Oh good! That’s basically what I do here, haha

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