Do you think the active effort to remove shame from being overweight has hurt us in the long run?

This is an interesting topic, one I’ve examined from many perspectives. First off, I don’t think all these ‘efforts’ have helped, truly, to make bigger people feel better. Secondly, if any of this did work, I don’t think that’s what’s contributing to America getting fatter as there are plenty of other big contributors. On the other hand there is a very small fat acceptance movement (this is not a mainstream movement, whatsoever) and I’ve read some critique of it – basically that, as you say, by focusing so ardently on fat acceptance, we can’t realistically address that for some (big emphasis on some) a lot of body fat will lead to disease…

I never think shaming works so no, we shouldn’t bring it back…as I said, thought, it never went away…snide remarks, rudeness, etc. against those bodies deemed ‘abnormal’ are still all the rage…and these have a whole hell of a lot less to do with people really caring for people’s health and a lot more to do with being just plain offensive

Just a small point.. 50+ years ago, girls were bigger and it was normal and considered beautiful. We’re talking size 12–14. I see a mentally-unhealthy trend that focuses on being a size 8 or less, when most women’s body types don’t naturally support this. So in regards to this aspect, I think it’s a good thing, if it helps women who might, say, naturally be a 10 or 12 not beat themselves up or hate their bodies. (By the by, you can be a 10 or 12 and be quite healthy)

There is a massive low self-esteem thing going among women these days. When they Photoshop models (elongating necks, making eyes bigger, adjusting skin tone and features), it sends the message to women that even the most beautiful among us aren’t beautiful enough.

Lastly, I don’t really think people need or are taking this type of thing as permission to be fat. If you haven’t lived in the world as a “fat” person, you may be unaware as to how unfun it is. I’m not even talking morbidly obese, I’m talking even sizes 12–16. When Dove introduced the “Real Women” campaign, do you know how many people ripped those beautiful women apart?? They weren’t even fat, they were bigger framed and healthy. So it’s hard to not be a stick these days. There are a lot of psychological things that mess you up in your head, people treat you differently, people make insensitive comments (even about other people), but the message is you aren’t okay how you are.

@AlenaD Clothing sizes in the 1950’s were way different than they are now. People like to say Marilyn Monroe was a size 12/14/16 whatever and considered gorgeous, but the sizes are not what they are today.
It’s a small point in relation to the other great things you said, but I think it’s an important one.

The obesity epidemic corresponds exactly to the rise in processed foods in the American (and Western) diet since the 1980s.

You CAN be overweight and healthy. The numbers that define one as obese change all the time. Some people are just bigger people, like Samoans, and to make these people feel less than because they do not fit the numbers or look like what we see on TV is plain wrong.

People being overweight does not effect me in any way. And don’t try to tell me it costs me money because I couldn’t care less. Money means nothing and people can do whatever they want with their own bodies.

@tinyfaery But the Samoans are plagued by diseases associated with obesity, so it might be good for them to lose some weight, although I know that they’re somehow genetically programmed to be fatter.

Overall, I think that only a small minority of people can truly be fat and healthy. The more weight you gain, the higher your risks are of getting diseases and health problems, so we should not be encouraging skinny, but healthy lifestyles, which we already have.

@Saturated_Brain Have you seen any Samoan people? If you tell me these people can adhere to the weight ideas of America, I think there might be something wrong with your eyes.

I think that the trend towards overweight can come from at least two things that I can think of offhand… the widened gap between rich and poor and the vanishing of the middle class since the ‘80’s. poverty and overweight does tend to go together.

I have another theory which I won’t go into until I have developed some more. it has pissed people off when I aired it on another online forum so perhaps best that I don’t anyway.

@tinyfaery I never said that they can adhere to the weight ideas of America, but I did say there could be a push to have them slim down.

Overweight people have enough problems to deal with. I don’t think we need to pile shame on top of them.

Fat people are the last minority against whom it is permissible to discriminate. There is no reason for shame to be involved – empirical evidence shows that the thrifty gene exists (in consort with other genes, since weight potential is polygenic) and that no one is to blame for his or her weight. The science is still ill understood, but progress is being made.

Shame is a vestige of our Puritanical past, and is always cruel. No fat person needs to be told that he or she is fat. Each fat person has already internalized society’s disgust with his or her (and especially her, in this punitive culture) appearance.

@Ria777 go for it.

@everyone generally I was talking about the average American, using current American sizes. Average women I consider to be 5’2” – 5’6” and men 5’9” – 6’1” more or less.

@peyton_farquhar I lean away from shaming anyone also, but I think there are many people who think they are not overweight, when they are at an unhealthy weight. This is part of what I am getting at.

The largest I have been was a size 10 several years ago. I am 5’6” and I was eating all of the time. And, lots of it was food that is not healthy. I don’t have a speedy metabolism or anything like that. In fact the last 6 years I have been living with a hypothryoid, and tend to keep it a little slower than most endocrinologistsconsider ideal.

To @Marina point I am old enough to remember what people looked like in the 80’s. We simply are fatter. Remember the commercial, “can you pinch an inch?” I think it was special K? That was not superskinny models, literally many people did not pinch much more than an inch on their stomachs. Now everyone has a tire, let’s face it. Well, not everyone, some cities are still relatively thin, NYC, Denver, and others. But, overall people are too big. Statiscally average weight, does not equate to an average healthy weight.

@JLeslie no one in the public health world will argue that people aren’t fatter in the U.S. – I will just argue that this is NOT because of the lessening of this shame you speak of

Great question. I’ve never thought abou tit this way before so it’s certainly food for thought. I’ll get back to you!

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I’m not dissagreeing with you :). I thought you made good points. I had not made up my mind when I wrote the original question. Just genuinely wondering what people thought.

It’s still permissible to discriminate against all kinds of people.

I agree with @pdworkin. I would think that positive feelings would trump shame any day to get one motivated to take better care of themselves. I know when I’m depressed I’d rather sit and eat ice cream instead of exercise and eat a salad.

I think it is the rise in processed foods, which @Marina pointed out and lack off physical activity that has Americans overweight.

@tinyfaery Especially bald men.

@tinyfaery Oh, thank God. I was running out of people to hate.

See my mother in 1933 on far left, as a singer-dancer with Jimmy Cagney at the piano. She was hardly a willow wand and was in 14 movies in two years. http://i25.tinypic.com/6sz0o2.jpg

I was watching the kids at the end of the second day of lower school yesterday. There were squads of boys and girls playing soccer, riding bikes and looking skinny and active.

@gailcalled Your mother looks great!

I think you know what I meant. I still can’t get married and that poor woman had to submit to a test to prove who/what she is.

@gailcalled Love the photo! Thank you for sharing.

@everyone. So shame to you is the same as discrimination? I don’t see them a equivalent.

Yes, because as we become desensitized to it. It becomes more accepting.
Now we are loosing sight as to what is “perceived” healthy and what is not.
Or, we can avoid it all together. Especially if we start to accept it and see it as sexy.

Beauty comes in all shapes and sizes, but there comes a point where it is just not healthy. Either large or skinny.

Size is not the issue. Some people will be “fat” or “big boned” or what ever you wish to call it. But never get any bigger. Being healthy the rest of their life.
Some will need to correct it, avoid becoming obese. But if they look the same as the other, why do anything. All is ok. Right?

Besides, we are “fast food” junkies. Typical junkie mentality is not seeing the problem where it really lies.

@JLeslie well discrimination is varied – if people shame people for being fat and solely for being fat, that is discrimination

@JLeslie: I would post it if I worked through it and made it watertight. I know my theory will piss peopple off and I don’t want to piss people off to no end.

It’s grossly unfair, even shameful that you can’t get married, but Gaybashing, while it certainly exists, is no longer culturally acceptable.Homophobes do it more cryptically now. Fat people we can still bash publicly without fear of censure.

@pdworkin: those things where you call “X the last or most acceptably persecuted minority” never work, IMO. it sounds whiny, like, “shut up and pay attention to me!” I can buy the persecuted minority thing, just not the “most” or the “last”.

@Ria777 it doesn’t sound whiny, imo – it sounds like someone’s opinion of reality and I happen to agree with that view

I have no dog in this fight. I’m a skinny old geezer, but I have noticed that fat people are subject to “comedy” all the time, and there seem to be no social consequences from bashing them.

Who says there’s no shame involved in being a pork-chop. Do you suppose I don’t own any mirrors?

I have enough self-loathing that I can do without society’s shame.

@pdworkin;—Mr. Skinnyperson; aren’t you withholding important info from the collective?—-

Obviously not, if you know that I was once heavy, but lost weight.

@Likeradar – I didn’t know that about the sizes changing, thanks. However, I still stand by my general argument, that girls in past decades were thicker/more filled out than what is the current beauty standard. Of course, I have only my own observation to back me up here, as I’m not old enough to have experienced it.. however, my stepdad (who is now in his 70’s) did and has loads of pictures from the 40’s and 50’s. I also seem to remember him saying that girls were generally thicker (and considered attractive) in his day. The pictures do show healthily thick women (not fat), certainly not a size 8. I’d venture to guess that, given the perfect conditions (healthy diet, etc.), most women in America would not naturally fall to size 8 or below. And honestly, size 10 or 12 is not that big or “fat”.

@AlenaD Of course. Standards of beauty are fluid. Think of Marilyn Monroe, or of Courbet’s delicious nudes.

“girls in past decades were thicker/more filled out than what is the current beauty standard.”

Very true. And they were active, being the child and home caretakers. It was a sign of health and of good child bearing, for good reason.

Using the example of the American Indian. Once they were pulled out of their hunter gather mode.
Obesity and diabetes set in.

@AlenaD My grandmother was encouraged to be a little “heavy” when she was younger by her mother, because then people with money had some more weight on them, but I don’t think it was “healthier.” The trends are part of the problem. I’ll generalize and stereotype a little here…Hispanics and Black people today tend to be heavier, I hear them say they like their curves. But, they are not healthy. It’s really more of a social class distinction, rather than race. Back in my grandma’s day poor people were hungry and thin. It seems to have flipped around.

My mother was discovered in Hollywood twice by Paramount and always wore a size 14.

A second point that I feel pretty strongly about is the shame aspect. Unless someone is, on general consensus, judged as having done something terribly wrong and hurtful (murder, rape, child abuse), no one should shame anyone. I know from having a 2+ year relationship with a once-devout Catholic how diabolical and all-encompassing the power of shame is.

People should leave their judgments to themselves, for the most part. It’s not as if it’s not a very well-known fact that obesity is unhealthy, I don’t know why people can’t simply be allowed to decide for themselves what kind of lifestyle they live. Now, if you do choose to live an unhealthy lifestyle, I definitely have less sympathy when complications arise, and I don’t deny that they most likely will. I just think everyone would benefit if people were less vocally judgmental with each other.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir , @pdworkin: I didn’t deny the central point, that you can make fun of fat people in the media and usually not catch hell for it. I only took exception to the ”most discriminated minority” (my italics and paraphrase). many groups of people think of themselves as the most discriminated minority. either hold a contest to see who can claim the title or stop using that phrase.

Actually, I think that people need to stop acting like it’s any of their fucking business if somebody else is fat. What gives you or me the right to pass judgement on anybody else for something that doesn’t affect anyone but themselves in any way?

I’m waiting for the day when every fat person who has ever been belittled for their weight to stand up and say:
“So I’m fat. Blow me.”

@peyton_farquhar: it does affect other people’s lives…

http://www.reuters.com/article/lifestyleMolt/idUSTRE53I2RG20090420

apart from what they mention in the article, you have the environmental effect of factory farming meat.

@Ria777 it affects other people inasmuch as my decision to eat bacon this morning or drive a car to work affects other people. How have you, personally, been victimized by someone else’s weight?

This is an interesting question. I think first we have to figure out (1) what it means to be overweight and (2) how bad it is to be overweight.

Definitions of overweight seem to be changing, and I think this is probably a good thing. Using the BMI scale, I am two pounds over what is considered a healthy weight for my height: I am technically overweight. But I run three miles a day and eat a carefully balanced vegetarian diet. So I’m not sure BMI is really a great way to determine healthy weights.

A study in 2005 found that “Relative to the normal weight category (BMI 18.5 to <25), obesity (BMI ≥30) was associated with 111,909 excess deaths . . . and underweight with 33,746 excess deaths . . . Overweight was not associated with excess mortality.”

So it seems like this problem is more complicated than fat = bad. I definitely think the physically and mentally healthiest thing we can do as a society is promote the things we know to be good for you and discourage things we know to be bad. Moderate exercise and thoughtful, healthful food are good—that’s not disputable. A sedentary lifestyle and junk food are bad—again, not disputable. The composition of your body that results from those things is variable.

I would maybe consider some middle ground: if you love your body, you might be ashamed to put horrible things in it, and maybe that shame would stop you from going to McDonalds. But I don’t think being ashamed of your body is good for anyone.

@peyton_farquhar For me, not so much how someone overweight affects society overall, increasing health costs, stuff like that, because certainly runners wind up needing knee surgery, and I am relatively average in my weight, but still have high cholesterol, etc. But, there are bunches of people out there who do not think they are heavy, who are at an unhealthy weight, those are the people I am talking about, because of cultural norms they think their weight is just fine. I’m not talking about the morbidly obese. That these “average” Americans might be surprised to see that at their weight, that they think is healthy and normal, they are at increased for certain health problems. I am more concerned about the individual person having misinformation that hurts themselves than anything else.

@peyton_farquhar: oh, Peyton! if you could only see a photo of me from last year. I went on a plane trip crosscountry (planes also mess up the environment) on stand-by crushed into the window seat by one of the largest human beings (in width and height) I have ever seen in my life. I chose to take that flight pinioned in by him rather than wait for the next one (which I might not get) so “victimized”, no.

in answer to the non-rhetorical part of your comment, I don’t feel great about people eat meat (which I don’t) or that they can’t simply telecommute or take public transportation. (our society has not embraced telecommuting. I wish that it would. granted that creates its own environmental impact.)

@JLeslie: I think it has less to do misinformation and more of imitating our peer group. otherwise who would smoke?

@nikipedia: if I weighed fifty pounds more than I do now, you can bet I would live a more sedentary lifestyle. (I live a pretty sedentary lifestyle now though I don’t look it.)

Shame, I believe, is not a very effective motivator. When people feel judged, they often start to feel helpless to change. I’m in favor of removing shame and replacing it with encouragement and with instruction as a means to achieve desired behavior.

@JLeslie: Interesting point. I have read some studies that found that there is a big gender difference—women tend to overestimate how overweight they are, and men tend to underestimate it.

@Ria777 I 100% agree. It is more cultural norms—peer groups as you put it.

@nikipedia I got 22.19 with that calculation in your article.

So you think it’s a good idea to shame others?

I really don’t think I can comment, I have seen plenty of larger women who I have considered beautiful but I don’t think we should be promoting weight gain unless it’s needed. Healthy body image is one thing but healthy body is another and the latter is more important.

However, despite a question that I have just this second asked on Fluther, I don’t believe in promoting the waif like image either.

We should be proomoting health. Some people are natural fluffy and healthy and some are waif like and healthy. That is the important thing. Unless it is recommended from a medical point of view I don’t think anyone should be encouraged to gain or lose weight.

I haven’t really contributed anything to this discussion but I did say I’d have a think!

@tinyfaery No. But, when something becomes socially less acceptable it might change behavior? Is smoking going down? I don’t know the stats, but it certainly has become socially less acceptable. I myself don’t hate or judge people who smoke (except when they litter their smoke butts onto the streets and sidewalks, that bothers me a lot!).

I don’t want people to feel bad about themselves. But, I would not mind a cultural movement to be thinner and healthier. I guess Oprah and Dr. Oz have been doing some of that.

I grew up with my father being overweight most of my life, and I don’t judge him. I don’t make any assumptions about people who are overweight. He just happened to be one of the heavier people I knew. But now, almost everyone I meet is heavy. There has been a shift.

The “movement” of fat acceptance hasn’t worked because it’s unhealthy and no one wants to be pandered to with glossy spiels. If you’ve ever become overweight then you know the difference in how people look at you and treat you and how you feel about yourself. There’s no need for shame, forget shame and guilt and move on to taking control.

I would think positive reinforcement would work better than shame.

I think my concern is where the line is drawn. If a girl 5’3” weighing 140 thinks she is an average healthy weight, she does not feel shame, and does not need positive reinforcement, because everyone around her is the same weight. It seems average. So, I am not talking about the very obese, but that the needle has moved on what society even considers overweight.

Eh, a hundred years ago, she’d’ve been considered just fine. Fat meant you had money for food, after all, and in some countries, this is still the case. I don’t know. I wasn’t happy being unfit, but I’m the only person I can be responsible for in that regard, since I had no kids. Shaming usually makes people feel resentful, is what I’m getting at, so I’m not sure as to how well that would work.

If the idea of being over weight changes then there is no such thing as being overweight; there is no absloute scale by which to measure.

@tinyfaery But there are statistics on how weight affects health.

On average, yes. But skinny, “healthy” people have heart attacks and get diabetes all the time. I have been about 10–15 pounds over weight my entire life and I am very healthy, according to my doctor. My sister, who has been of normal weight her whole life has high cholesterol and pre-diabetic symptoms. Weight is one factor, and not even the greatest.

I will NEVER understand how anyone’s weight effects anyone else.

@JLeslie so okay you’re concerned with people’s health? fight for access to fruits and vegetables, fight against decreased PE time in our schools, fight for more parks and rec areas and bike lanes, fight for free exersize classes, but don’t shame fat people

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I agree. Just to be clear, I did not say I want to shame fat people. I just asked a question.

@tinyfaery 10–15 aint much. I also said above that I am not ready to say that heavy people cost society more in health costs etc, because thin runners need knee surgeries and I, being at a relatively health weight, still have cholesterol problems. No judgement from me, no sweeping generalizations. Just asking what people think. I do think though, that our weight generally reflect social norms, rather than what is healthy or not. I find that unfortunate.

One more thing. If it is trendy to be skinny, and everyone around you is skinny, then you probably feel bad being fat, even if everyone around you doesn’t judge you and never says one negative thing. So, no one has to tease you or purposefully make you feel bad. No one is suggesting wearing a scarlet F. It is my experience that people are embarrassed or feel shame more in their own minds than what anyone else can cause. So I am talking about the trend that heavier is more acceptable and normal.

It is acceptable. And none of anyone’s business.

We should bring back the fact that everyone makes their own decisions in life.

Shame is what fucking organized religion thrives on.

SHAME on you.

Y’all are getting hung up on the word shame, instead of the idea.

As many have stated above, a few extra pounds was the norm several decades ago. Then we had the media telling us that a size 2 was sexy and “normal” for the past couple of decades. I think that we have finally wised up and have gone back to what used to be normal instead of trying to starve ourselves to be thin and accepted.

@JLeslie . . .The idea of shame is what fucking organized religion thrives on.

SHAME on you.

Get the idea?

@Blondesjon Of course I get it. I don’t know if you read the whole thread, since it is long now, but I have stated I don’t agree with shaming anyone.

@JLeslie . . .So you’re just trolling then?

Trolling? I was asking a question to see what people thought, not sure what you mean by trolling?

http://bbwdeluxe.com/archives/1292

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I love that ad. My father, he is 67, was given special shots of something, God knows what, when he was a teenager to make him gain weight.

I believe fitness should be promoted not for cosmetic’s sake but for health’s sake.

Shaming those who are overweight is not going to be effective. It’s sends a terrible message.

Shaming people enables people to dehumanize others. Shaming others is why we have fat jokes.

“Homogenized emulsion” sounds irresistably delicious.

@tinyfaery This reminds me of my dad and his brother and sister. My dad and his brother are both slim and my dad has been very active through sport his entire life and yet both have high cholestral and my dad has also had heart problems. He doesn’t smoke, he eats very healthily and he drinks occassionally. My uncle is like a bean pole, slimmer than my dad although no where near as active and sporty. He also has high cholestral and has lost all his teeth even though he claims he doesn’t eat much sugar (he does smoke like a chimney though!).

My Aunt is short and overweight and yet she doesn’t have to take medication for anything. The doctor says she is healthy.

That’s the thing.. doing things that are bad/good for you is no guarantee that it will cause/prevent serious illness later. All it does is increase/decrease the risk for certain things.

@Leanne1986: anecdotes don’t prove a whole lot. in theory, you could drive drunk fifty times and not have an accident. contrariwise (please do admire my vocabulary) you could go out driving just once, crash and die. bottom line, driving sober doesn’t make driving completely safe, though it makes you more safe than when you drink and drive.

also, genetics must have a lot to do with what you described.

@Ria777 I’m sure you’re right, I just find it amusing!

I think what hurts people is their lack of understanding about what good nutrition is.
Unfortunately I do not think that most educators have a clue.
Society has made eating into a ritual.
People over stuff themselves every holiday.
Parents give their children comfort foods to keep them quiet. People live to eat instead of eating well to live longer.
It is better if people learn to judge people on more than just appearance. However people should be concerned about their health.
The problem is that many people refuse to learn about proper nutrition until they become ill.
I have had over weight people make rude remarks to me because I am thin and fit. I would not make a remark about their appearance unless they said something about mine.
I was a cute but chubby child. I have been thin since eleven or twelve years old.
It is not OK to eat poorly and expect society to pick up the tab when you become ill.
I feel very sad when people make themselves ill.
I have to deal daily with my Autistic son’s desire to over eat. I understand why people over eat especially special needs people but; society should educate everyone about proper nutrition.
I think the reason their are not more programs to education children about proper nutrition is probably because food companies are against them.
Commericals promote unhealthy lifestyles.