Whats the problem with mosques? (details in side)

To some it is, apparently, a problem, to others it isn’t at all.
I think that most Americans (or any other people around the world) won’t object because it is perfectly legal to build one (mosque, church, synagogue, buddhist temple) where it is stated in the Constitution that there is freedom of religion.
Some people who object, in my view, think that all Muslims are (potential) terrorists.
In fact, some terrorists are Muslim, some are Christians, some are Atheists.

@rebbel Right on. I’d call the Crusades a total act of Terrorism by Christians.

”is it because people don’t like Muslims ?” YES, in part – because of tribal crude us vs them BS

”just because the terrorist happen to be Muslims ?” YES, in part

”what if the terrorist were extremist Catholic or Christians would you not let a catholic or christian church be built near the world trade center just because its Catholic or Christian ?” ER MAYBE, but the difference is that there’s a tribal association of USA with Christian, which makes the primitive reactionary tribalism seem to make enough sense for it to be perpetuated.

really great answer rebbel and of course zaku….both of you have somewhat different views concerning mosques….and I wanted to see both of them, so i can fully understand the problem with mosques :)

but zaku i didn’t understand what you said in the first question other than that thank you :)

@TwigNBerries In my answer to the first question, I mean, yes, some people think or feel like they “don’t like Muslims” in a crude way, in a way that it seems to me breaks down to a pattern something like “I belong to a group (USA, Christian), and there is a rival threatening other group (Muslim, terrorist, associated with Mosques), so I like my group and things I associate with it (American Flag, the word Democracy, Apple Pie, etc) and I don’t like things I associate with the hostile group (Mosques, turbans, veils, AK-47’s etc)”. That I think the level of sophistication of thinking that objects to Mosques existing near the former site of an attack also associated with this tribal blood feud story. It’s also the same basic pattern that much modern American media never transcends. A similar level of unsophistication is no doubt involved in the rallying of jihadists.

People give me a break. Most of the terrorists that you (should) truly worry about are Muslim. Sure there are Christian terrorists, and atheist terrorists, maybe even feminist terrorists, but on a percentage basis, if a young man blows himself up with a bomb and kills 50 or so women and children, what is the one thing about him that, if you had to bet your life, you would bet? If you bet he is Muslim the chances are quite good that you will win. Not all muslims are terrorists to be sure, but the ones that are, are a serious problem. And if there was a group that should be of concern to you, it would be the Muslim terrorist, not the Christian, atheist and feminist terrorist. Only two things can be true at this point. Either you are trying to score a few points with the “one world, everybody is the same, all we need is understanding” crowd, or you simply are not paying attention. Nobody hates all Muslims. Just the ones that want to kill you. And those are the ones who successfully killed 3000 innocents on September 11, and numerous other mass murders that people seem to forget about. Anybody who believes that building a mosque near the 9/11 site is not a political version of giving you the finger is living in an hallucination. Imagine building a shrine to the Crusaders in Meccca. What in the world are you talking about. I see this stuff, and sometimes I think it has to be a put on. Can you really be serious as to believe that you are not merely setting your self up for the next bomb? And I bet everything that it will originate in this mosque in the heart of New York City. Because you folks won’t allow anybody to check inside it for fear of offending somebody-who just might be your killer. Go ahead and build it. But I bet most of you won’t go within a mile of it when you visit NYC, because you know what just might happen.

”...just because the terrorist happen to be Muslims ?” I beg your pardon, happen to be Muslims? There is no happen about it. Muslim extremists want to kill all of us. They want us all dead. Period.
I think that what people fear is the unknown, and the fact that most of Americans do not speak any arabic language adds to the potential fear factor. So if one were in a public place and heard two people who are ovbilously middle eastern speaking a foreign language, one could be excused for being somewhat fearful. The conversation could be perfectly innocent, but one could not know that for sure. It could be a plan about blowing up something in a crowded place. It could be anything. And now that we have seen what the extremists are willing to do, how can we distinguish from the average, peace loving Muslim and the lunatic fringe extremist Muslim who would as soon kill you as look at you? We have no difinitive way of knowing. And that is where the fear enters the picture. And fear begets anger and misunderstanding. It would be better, perhaps, if middle easterners would refrain from speaking anything other than englishwhile in public, but this is not to be hoped for. Many do not speak English, and others feel resentful and want to thumb their noses at Americans, refusing to speak English as a sign of defiance or contempt. This is a sort of pre-meditated martyr tactic. It invirtes misunderstanding, and the result will be “Look at what those bad Americans/westerners did, just because I was speaking my own language. I did nothing wrong…”
So we have provacateurs, non english speakers, and bigots who hate Americans even if they don’t actually want us dead, in addition to extremists and average joe American Muslims who have integrated and want peace. On the other side we have bigots who hate everyone not like themselves, people who hate Muslims now due to 9/11 who before never gave them any thought at all, and people who are afraid even though they really don’t want conflict with their Muslim bretherin.
It is a volatile mix, to be sure. Unfortunately, the hate mongers on all sides are more vocal and active than the peace lovers. It has always been so.
Look for more violence due to this Mosque. It is inevitable.

Ooops. I spelled “obviously” wrong. What a doofus. Also “berthren”. I give up.

@josie I agree that if one is looking for terrorists of a certain type, than Moslim is an obvious and reasonable thing to look for when searching for potential threats. A Mosque however is not a temple for jihadists, and condemn such violence. By far, most Muslims are pacifists. The most effective way to eliminate jihadists, it seems to me, would be through the support of most Muslim religious and cultural leaders. When Americans or Europeans make the mistake of taking sides against all Mulsims, they mess with that possibility, and perpetuate and increase the conflict, and bring more people into it. If Americans claim the people in the World Trade Centers were “innocent”, then they would be hypocrites to condemn all Muslims, and considering Mosques offensive is just that sort of error, it seems to me. Banning Mosques near the WTC seems like a misguided approach that will tend to do damage to understanding, and would only serve to reinforce misdirected sore feelings on both side.

@rebbel Christian and atheist terrorist? Really? Can you cite some instance in recent years of christian terrorists who were murdering people because of what it said in their “good” book? The crusades of course. 99 percent of the time when someone is intentionally blown up in today’s world, a radical Islamic group is taking responsibility. That is the truth, albeit an ugly truth. I feel sympathetic for the the rest of Islam that is not of the radical vein.

Because all Muslims are terrorists. Didn’t you learn that from the news?

@zaku Say what you will. Two known terrorists attacks were directed at the WTC. The second one worked. Lower Manhattan is prime hunting ground to Islamic terrorists. A mosque built in the vicinity will someday be used as a detonator. I know you do not want to believe this, so don’t. But someday, when it happens, remember when you saw Josie’s post on Fluther.
Futhermore, for all of this talk about Islam and pacifism, there is one thing missing. There has never really been an “insititutional” condemnation of the WTC bombers from Islamic clerics. And very few of them actually disapprove of the act. They think it is sad and everything that innocent men and women were killed, but if you hunker down with one of practitioners of the faith, they are reluctant to actually say that they disapprove. That is certainly true in the Middle East, and generally true here in the U.S. Try it sometime. Ask one of your Muslim friends if the WTC attack was an outrageous murder. You might be surprised at how few of the “peaceful ones” agree. Anyway, I know better than to think the Fluther culture is going to buy into this. It’s sort of ineresting to see all the stuff about how Christians and atheists and everybody else are also terrorists. In a depressing sort of way, I mean. I suspect that only a few Flutherites have been there to see what these lunatics are truly capable of. I do not know what comfort anybody can objectively take by saying, “Timothy McVey was not Muslim so therefore we have nothing to worry about from these Islamic folks”. That will prove to be one of history’s saddest non sequiturs I think.

@Russell_D_SpacePoet Well, the “Christian” terrorist would be of a different terrorist genre. They’re basically insane individuals who target individuals (such as Dr. Tiller) based on their “beliefs.” Others have turned on their own families, claiming they had to kill them because they had the devil in them. Shite like that.

” A Mosque however is not a temple for jihadists, and condemn such violence” Wrong. Mosques have certainly been used to plot terrorist schemes. That may not be the stated purpose, but to deny that mosques have been and will continue to be used for such nefarious purposes is irresponsible.
No one is suggesting that all muslims are terrorists, despite the tongue-in-cheek responses of some of us. Do not make the mistake of going to the other end of the extreme and say that no mosque has been house to the origins and detailing of terrorist activity.

thanks guys now i can really understand both sides of the conflict and with that i can better my self :)
oh and i think I’ve heard of radical christian terrorist in these
1: http://atheism.about.com/b/2004/01/12/thanks-be-to-god-and-christian-terrorists.htm
2: http://jdallen.org/news/christian-terrorist-attempts-car-bombing-in-iowa/
and there have been more Islamic terrorism in Europe than in the US of A, so most terrorism that you here about that is in the US are terrorist that were born here,
1: http://www.danielpipes.org/5723/which-has-more-islamist-terrorism-europe-or-america

My ex-wife’s great aunt is a sweet old Catholic lady, and she sends around email spam full of “let’s massacre all the Muslims” messages. So sure, terrorists schemes have taken place in mosques. Just as, no doubt, many conversations have happened in Christian churches about violence towards muslims. And sure, you may point to a lack of Islamic clerical condemnation of the WTC attacks in the way you’d like; even as there may many Iraqis disappointed in the lack of condemnation from Christian religious authorities about how the US military has killed even more civilians in Iraq.

@josie You wrote several things that have nothing to do with me and my thinking, such as:
* I don’t dispute for an instant that jihadists have attacked Manhattan and would still like to.
* I don’t “not want to believe” that “a mosque will be used for a detonator” but I also don’t care. If you know that’s a risk, then great, have the CIA or Moronland Security spy on it so you’ll be more likely to intercept the next attack since you’re so sure where it’ll be. If you are right that’s a threat vector and you ban mosques, then the threat vector will simply be less predictable.
* I don’t have any doubt that jihadists are terrifying and capable of horrible violence. But I don’t extend that threat to all muslims, and I don’t think it’s an effective strategy to resolve the situation, to vilify Islam. If you want to stop the conflict, you need to understand and change the relationship with the other culture, not decide they are all evil.

@Dutchess_III Sorry…Totally different in my opinion. Haven’t heard of a “Christian” walking in with a bomb strapped to their body and killing people. It is a different mentality.

OH boy this is going to be a long one:

“Is it because people don’t like Muslims?” – Well in a word yes, Muslim fanatics are the most common to be cited for terrorist acts, and have developed a bad name for all Muslims

Is it because the WTC was bombed by terrorists we were Muslims? – Definitely there would be the same uproar if the terrorists happened to be Christians (though it would be very unlikely to ever be Christians blowing a building up to the ground because of a differing belief system).

Christian/Jewish – religions, and don’t kid yourself people you can’t really separate the two of them being that the first half of the bible was written from the Torah, Jesus of the histories was Jewish remember? But the Christian/Jewish religions aren’t based on total and complete submission to god that is the biggest difference between the motives between Islamics and Christians/Jews.

Let me explain:
The first big difference in beliefs is that Islam is based on submission to god. That is why they submit themselves 5 times every day. Christianity/Judaism is based on the following of gods will towards salvation (whether it’s through the 613 Mitzvot of Judaism, or through Jesus Christ of Christianity).

The second is that Muslims do not have a Pope like Christians do. There are Imams in all Islamic areas but there is really no position that they report to, and no unilateral governing of the interpretation of the Qur’an that all Muslims can follow. Christianity has a pope, and Judaism has the Talmud who interprets and tell of the right way to worship in Christianity and Judaism.

Because of that second point about no central leadership in Islamic religions, it fosters many extremists. People need guidance, all people, we constantly look to leaders. the world is full of them, leaders, and followers. Terrorists are the followers of certain fanatical religious extremists. The idea of Martyrdom in those sects of Muslims is, more or less, kill yourself forcing others to submit themselves to god’s judgment, and be rewarded.

BACK TO THE ORIGINAL QUESTION AGAIN:
I sort of started going into this when I answered “is it because they were Muslims that took down the WTC” but here goes the rest of it, Yes I imagine that it would be roughly the same if they suicides who hit the WTC then a church would be equally unpopular for the reasons that it would represent the ones who hit the towers. It’s like pouring salt in the wound.

Some examples of recent years terrorist acts by Christians, atheists, etc. I could find specific cases but I’m just going to generalize:
Christians who shoot up an abortion clinic

IRA members who blow up a car near an English police station

George W. Bush and his national security agency uprooting Muslims from all over the country, shipping them off to Guantanamo (from which many never returned). Think of how terrifying that would be if you were one of the peace loving Muslims just wishing to worship how you choose in a country with freedom of religion.

The KKK which is still quite active today even though I’m not entirely sure if there have been any violent attacks recently (I don’t keep track of these)

Terrorism – The systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/terrorism) notice how there is nothing about religion, or group affiliation etc in here. Anything that is done to cause fear in others is terrorism

I believe I digress some…..Moral of the story – Muslims do have the right to build a mosque anywhere that they acquire it through legal terms and achieve the proper zoning permits etc. HOWEVER, given how strongly this country feels about the WTC incident….and its affiliation with Muslims….building a new Mosque (other than the many that already scatter NYC) was probably not the best choice.

I once met an Imam who was in the navy. I didn’t recognize the brass on his collar and asked him about it. At the time I was wiccan and we got into a big discussion about why the military was only recently admitting the Islamic faith into the ranks of the traditional chaplains office. For Islam and Wicca the reasoning was the same; they have no central authority. It made perfect sense when he explained it. He also laughed and told me to be on the lookout for Wiccan clergy in the navy soon, the paperwork had already been approved.
It was a brief meeting but I got good impressions of him and his ideals.
I think he had the right of it; you do what you can and try to make changes as they are accepted, but he felt that the need for a central authority for the Islamic faith was very important. Maybe the next generation can fixt that.