What is wrong with our civilization?

My guess is that they’ll think we’re peaceful. War is only going to get worse, I think.

We allow handguns to flow freely throughout society causing many needless deaths.

We are so politically polarized that nothing can get done so we are at stasis.

We ignore the threats to our planet from ourselves.

A system of economics based on the principals of unlimited growth in a world with finite resources, and an infrastructure totally reliant on fossil fuels.
@Seelix Things are going to get a LOT worse in the near future.

From Derrick Jensen :

“Those creatures who’ve survived in long run have survived in the long run; you don’t survive in the long run by hyper-exploiting your surroundings; you survive in the long run by actually making your habitat better.

“Civilization is a way of life characterized by the growth of cities, and that’s defensible both historically and linguistically. What’s a city? A city is a collection of people living in numbers large enough to require the importation of resources.

Two things happen once you require the importation of resources. One is that you can never be sustainable, which means that we can all become the best little natural capitalists in the world, and it doesn’t matter so long as there’s this fundamental system in place, it’s not sustainable.

The other thing it means is that your way of life must be based on violence, because if you require the importation of resources trade will never be sufficiently reliable. If you require the importation of resources, and the people in the next watershed over aren’t going to trade you for it, you’re going to take it. We could all become junior Bodhisattvas, and it wouldn’t matter; the U.S. military would still have to be huge, because how else are they going to get access to our oil that just happens to be under somebody else’s land? If they require that oil, they’re going to take it.”

@Seelix War has actually gotten significantly less common in the last 100 years. If you look at the 1700’s and 1800’s for example, there was a MAJOR war involving at least a couple world powers in virtually every decade. There hasn’t been a major war since world war two.

You could speculate that the threat of mutually assured destruction brought on by modern weaponry, has actually made warfare so horrific that it is largely avoided (save for developing/3rd world nations that don’t have the same capacity as larger ones).

I would expect this to only get better over time.

@tedd That is only true if you look at history selectively. Instead of massive wars like World War II or even Vietnam (not called a war but a police action for political reasons), we see that the U.S. and other major world powers are engaged often in proxy wars. Even more important is that Western corporations often wage mercenary wars that we seldom hear about, in order to obtain resources abroad. We can also include the War on Drugs in this.

This culture is constant warfare.

We need more cowbell
;)

Some of us ask questions like this.

I contend that the only problem with our civilization is that we lack the proper knowledge in the use of the Whoopee Cushion. If used properly, there would be no war nor people eating with elbows on the table. Now that would be civilization.

@incendiary_dan There have always been proxy wars. Look at the British against the Chinese in the Opium wars, or even the Indian war prior to the American revolution (though in fairness that was part of yet another larger global conflict).

There may be unfortunate and terrible proxy wars like Vietnam or Afghanistan for the Russians…. But there is no 7 years war, or World War, or anything like that. And we should be incredibly happy about that.

I tend not to answer “what is wrong with…” questions, and I’m not going to start now.

Lists of “what is wrong with…” don’t lead to solutions and tend to direct one’s thoughts away from all of the really wonderful things in the world. And there are so damn many of those…

Here’s one of the amazing things that is so right with the world today:
I was in Stop & Shop yesterday doing some grocery shopping, and I was struck again by the fabulous wealth displayed on the shelves (and being restocked even as I pulled things off the shelves to put into my cart). More food than I could eat in a lifetime available for the picking and choosing by any of the hundreds of people in the store, and… those hundreds of people casually browsing the aisles and choosing what they wanted, and then standing in line to pay for it. No theft that I could see, no panic, no looting, employees available to direct shoppers to whatever they wanted to find in the store… just amazing. Wealth for the taking, and no guards, no guns, no sense of urgency at all. And that was the scene also at Wal-Mart and BJs and tens of thousands of other stores around the USA (and much of the world) yesterday, today, next week… you name it. (Not to mention the millions of dollars’ worth of cars in the parking lots to take the shoppers and the goods home – more wealth – to serve up and enjoy.)

And this happens every day, and no one thinks, “Wow, what a miracle! A thousand years ago we were scratching to survive, trying to stay warm and free from vermin, lucky (maybe) to live past our thirties, and worn down by backbreaking labor before kids these days have even finished an education and decided what they might like to do with their lives.”

Yeah, there are tons of things wrong in the world, and if you want to focus on them, then be my guest. As far as I can see, life is pretty grand – and getting better for more and more people. No, it’s not perfect, and it’s perfectly awful for a few – even “a few hundred million” poor souls is a relative handful in a population approaching seven billion. But it’s pretty bloody wonderful.

If you’re able to read this and either fed (or about to be fed) and warm (or about to be) and thinking that there’s no reason you shouldn’t live through the night and have another day tomorrow (no matter how boring your Tuesday may be), then it seems to me that you don’t have much to complain about.

But you’re free to if you want to. And that’s pretty wonderful, too.

Most of the things I’ve mentioned can be improved. I’d suggest a question directed toward “How could I improve (whatever)?” and see where that takes your thoughts.

Not enough individuals have reached an understanding of civilized behavior.

Too many seek to be Nietzsche’s last man

@CyanoticWasp I think you are maybe too close to those supermarket shelves to get a proper perspective on my question. I was trying to imagine how we might be seen from a distance, as we now look on the Roman Empire for example. That isn’t an easy thing to imagine when you are actually living within the culture.

Our modern way of life is very good in close up but there are other points of view. Thinking about what is wrong with our civilisation and what might threaten it is the first step in putting it right but we seem disinclined to do this.

@CyanoticWasp I agree with your insightful, succinct and eloquently worded points. My dad has lived for nearly a century. He owned a grocery store and gas station. He says the same things you said. On the other hand, with your point of discussion of “how could I improve (whatever?), he goes every Thursday and Friday and volunteers at a food pantry. I’m sure there is a good discussion in there somewhere.

We’re still too tribal. Still too much of an “Us vs. Them” mentality. We’ve made some incremental (and definitely non-linear) progress in this domain, but the progress needs to outpace our capacity to destroy.

@flutherother

What is wrong with our civilization in a nutshell is that we – each of us – is going to die. Every other wrong thing is secondary to that fact. So why dwell on that, and all of the lesser ‘wrongs’? Make the most of your life while you’re living it, and help to make life better for others. There’s profit in it, and that’s a good thing for you and for the others who trade with you.

If you really want to leave a lasting good impression for someone a thousand years or more from now, then I’d suggest that you create or commission works of art, preferably in stone or something equally durable. Or write something insightful that people will quote forever. (I don’t recommend founding a new religion; I don’t think we’re well served by that.)

There will always be something wrong in a human society, and no end of people to bitch about it ceaselessly and uselessly. Finding something right and making it better, that’s an art in itself. The Romans did that, and the Greeks and Egyptians and other Africans before them. The Chinese did it, too, and the same in other parts of Asia.

The Romans had markets, similar to what we have now. Ours are a bit more complex, offer a wider variety of goods, and have electric freezers that they lacked. Refrigerators and freezers are getting better. They had homes, some of them with running water. We have better valving and plumbing materials. I expect those things will be better in the future, too.

I don’t expect things to change so much for the future. The machines and materials and methods will be more complex and deliver more variety – to markets – for people to take… home.

@bkcunningham

Thanks. I’m sure I’d like your dad.

I agree that warfare has actually gotten less common worldwide, and will probably continue on that trend.

I think our 23rd century descendants will probably look back on factory farming as the great widespread atrocity of our times.

Maybe also the way women are treated in traditional societies (particularly traditional Islamic cultures).

Peter Gelderloos on Global Warming and Related Issues (including warfare that isn’t labeled as such)

I think our 23rd century descendants will probably wonder why quarterly results were once considered more important than long-term, integrated, and sustainable solutions beneficial for all of humanity.

More on unseen or under-represented warfare, which is the result of the resource extraction by Western corporations, as I mentioned : The Coconut Revolution

@mattbrowne I would agree. A major problem is short term thinking. Companies want to maximise profits short term and politicians want to get re elected. There is no incentive to think long term.

@flutherother – So we need to change the system and create long-term incentives. We need to be the change we want to see.

The Fourth World War

23rd century? I doubt we’ll make it that long with the current way the world operates. Maybe Australia though…

“I don’t know what weapons World War 3 will be fought with… But I know World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones.”

-Albert Einstein