Social Question

CugelTheClueless's avatar

Is it ethical to use this guy as a wingman?

Asked by CugelTheClueless (1534points) February 18th, 2011

A certain acquaintance of mine has an uncanny knack for breaking the ice with women in bars. I’m not naturally extroverted and getting things started is very hard for me. On the rare occasions when I can pull this off with a woman when I’m alone, her female friend c***blocks me (why do women do that?). So I need a wingman, and this guy seems like a great candidate.

The problem? He’s just a little bit… creepy. I probably would want to keep him at arm’s length if I didn’t want him as a wingman. I would definitely not set him up with a close female friend. Once I arrived at a bar and found him hitting on a woman that I knew was married. After she had brushed him off, I told him that she was not available. He said he didn’t consider married women off limits.

So I guess there are two problems here. One, am I wrong to hang out with this guy mainly because he might be useful to me, and two, am I wrong to help this guy get women when I have doubts about his character?

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31 Answers

Coloma's avatar

The fact that you are questioning your motives speaks loud and clear.

You WANT it to be okay, but, really it’s not.

Using someone you don’t really like and find ‘creepy’ is disingenious

It’s a good sign you are questioning your motives, now you just need to LISTEN to yourself.

Find another wingman that can actually be a real FRIEND to you.

Besides, he sounds like a disrespectful guy, not caring about hitting on married women, uh..I’d say he might make a good wingman IF he doesn’t actually steal the girl out from under you. lol

Nah…scrap this diabolical plan and do your own work.

nikipedia's avatar

Who knows, maybe there’s a woman out there with questionable scruples herself who belongs with such a man.

Can you learn his tactics so you don’t need him anymore?

Or can you talk to him about his moral poverty?

iamthemob's avatar

Not at all – I don’t know anyone who doesn’t have flaws, so all of the people in our lives are those that we keep for some reason or another such that the benefit outweighs the flaws.

That’s to the first question. As to the second – you can easily look at it as a moral duty to use him as a wingman, as you can intervene, subtly or clearly, so that you can stop him from doing things you find distasteful.

Of course, if you intend to help him pursue interests you find deplorable to get your mack on – well, then…that’s more about your moral character than his now, isn’t it. ;-)

bob_'s avatar

Ethical to use as wingman? Of course. It’s not like you’re asking him to hold the chloroform bottle for you.

Just make sure he doesn’t hit on 18-year olds ~

marinelife's avatar

I think it is wrong to use him as a wing man if you doubt his ethics. The fact that you are with him is a stamp of approval.

blueiiznh's avatar

What kind of ethics are you looking when you are out trying to pick up women?
You are beating around the bush as to what you are using him for.

Grow some big ones of your own!

MacBean's avatar

Well, my gut reaction is to say just go for it, but I also identify pretty strongly with this sometimes so you may want to take my advice on the topic with a grain of salt.

CugelTheClueless's avatar

Interesting range of answers! Thanks!

I don’t think I have to worry about this guy stealing a woman out from under me—he’s shorter, fatter, and balder than me. Also, he’s good at breaking the ice, but he’s kind of boring after that. I’m better at keeping the conversation going once it gets started. He needs a guy like me as much as I need a guy like him. We’d make a great team if I didn’t have these qualms.

blueiiznh's avatar

@CugelTheClueless “you make a great team?”

Sounds like a pair that beats three of a kind.

wundayatta's avatar

You’re meeting a woman at a bar? There are no rules in bars. People who meet there deserve what they get. Having an interest in alcohol and Quizzo is not a very solid basis for a relationship. But most people know that. Which means if they go to a bar to find someone, there’s a fair chance they’re looking for a hookup.

If he’s creepy, he might hurt as much as he helps. Whatever. You’re a team. You live together or you die together. Is he the guy you want to be together with?

Yes. I am very judgmental about relationships formed in bars. It just seems like the wrongest place to go. Bars are about hooking up, not relationships, unless you come with someone you’re already with.

nikipedia's avatar

@wundayatta: what!!!!!! what what what!!!!

Kardamom's avatar

There are a few problems going on here. The creepy guy should not be used as your wingman or even be considered your friend. Women are afraid of creeps and if you associate with a guy like that, you will also be considered to be creepy or at least to have lack of good judgement (another thing that women don’t like).

The women, who you’ve mentioned who have friends that are c***ts (in your words) that are blocking you, are probably just being good friends that are trying to prevent their own female friends from having to deal with someone that they think is creepy. There are a lot of creepy guys out there and women tend to travel in pairs for safety’s sake. You may be sending out a creepy vibe, yourself. You may be a perfectly decent fellow, but if you are sending out a creepy vibe because of some of the things you say or some of the actions that you take (like touching, or moving in too close, or laughing too loud or at inappropriate moments, or asking personal questions, or appearing to get angry etc.) then you should find out what those things are and try to change them. The best way to find out if you are putting out the creep vibe is to ask people that you know (good male and female friends).

Looking for love in bars is not the best place to find real love, if that is what you are looking for. The best place to find real love is in any place that you would normally go to for your own interest. Do you like sports or have any hobbies that you enjoy? Do you like to dance or camp or hike or bird watch or paint or take photographs? When you engage in those activities that are meaninful to you and do those things where like minded people are likely to congregate, your chances of meeting someone that you like are much higher. And because you both will be engaging in an activity that you already both enjoy, it’s much easier to talk to her than it would be in a bar, where you have absolutely no idea about the other person. Plus, being sober is a much more realistic way to interact with people, if you are really looking for a real realtionship and not just a hook up.

If you feel like you have some self esteem problems, you might want to have a few sessions with a therapist. Or you might want to check out this organization called Toastmasters. They are an organization that teaches leadership skills and they mostly do that by teaching people public speaking. They can help shy or awkward people to learn better inter-personal skills and to gain confidence.

lloydbird's avatar

It is never ethical to “use a guy as a wigwam”! because it…, ..er..,oops! ....misread the question. Never mind. Carry on. :-o

submariner's avatar

For question one: Are you misrepresenting yourself to him? Are you leading him to believe you are his friend when you aren’t? Or does he see you the same way you see him—just someone who might useful as a “teammate”?

For question two: You don’t have to help him get married women, of course. And anyway, a married woman who goes for a guy like this in a bar is probably either not happy in her marriage or does not value monogamy. Is that the only issue? What exactly do you mean by “creepy”? Is it just that he hits on married women, or is there more to it than that?

@coloma disingenuous, not disingenious. Sorry, I see this too often to let it slide as a typo.

Coloma's avatar

—@submariner—

Hah! THAT was my original spelling and it came up as incorrect…go figure, but thanks anyway! Oh wait, I think I put an ‘e’ in there instead of the ‘u’., my faux paus. ;-)

sinscriven's avatar

His sexual morality is irrelevant. His job is to be a decoy so you can get laid. You aren’t doing charity work, so it doesn’t matter how clean his nose is for your ‘noble’ endeavor. But I would think that a wingman would be someone you trust and like because if chicks see what kind of company you keep, what does that say about your character?

I’m not a fan of keeping people to use for my own ends, it feels selfish and manipulative. Even if it’s at an acquaintance level, there should be some level of respect.

CugelTheClueless's avatar

@Kardamom Whoah! I did not use the “c” word! I said “c***block”, which rhymes with sockblock.

I’m talking about cases in which I actually start to hit it off with someone, but then her friend comes along and throws cold water on it. Maybe it’s all in my mind, but I think I can tell the difference between a case in which a woman is giving me one-word answers and not making eye contact, and a case in which we’re actually having a conversation.

But maybe I am giving off a creepy vibe. As I said, I’m not extroverted. Everybody says, “just be yourself”, but just by taking the initiative and trying to start a conversation with somebody, I’m being something I’m not. Maybe I’m coming across as phony, because in a way, I am being phony just by approaching a woman instead of waiting for her to approach me. But our society’s courting rituals require me to make the first move.

As for those other ways of meeting people… sorry, I know you’re trying to help, but those don’t work. My interests mostly involve solitary or predominantly male-oriented activities. I’ve tried volunteering, but the women I meet there are all retired, married, or underage. Online dating is the pits. All the women seem to be arrogant, desperate, or just flat out lying about themselves. The few who are worth dating are so overwhelmed with responses that they don’t even answer most of their messages.

bob_'s avatar

@CugelTheClueless Should have simply said “cockblocks”.

iamthemob's avatar

@CugelTheClueless@bob_ is right – you can cuss all you want here, as long as it’s germane – and cockblocking is certainly germane to this discussion. ;-)

nikipedia's avatar

Dude, if you’re feeling totally cynical about and frustrated with dating, maybe we should start a club.

CugelTheClueless's avatar

Ok, cockblock it is.

@submariner Well, I don’t think I’ve misrepresented myself, at least not deliberately, and I guess it mostly is about his hitting on married women. I can’t really say he’s given me any reason to think he’s dangerous or anything.

WasCy's avatar

Put it this way: If you’re going to have ethical qualms, from any quarter and for any reason, associated with having this guy help you out with your own relationships, then your relationships are always going to be tainted with that. Whether you do anything ‘bad’ or not, you’ll know that (likely and potentially) ‘bad things were done’ on your behalf. You won’t like that, and that’s not going to sit well with you later on.

Since it’s not hard to find guys who have a certain rapport with women (because really, all you have to realize is that they’re just people and relate to them as people – which is difficult, I understand, when you’re trying to cut one out of the herd for different types of ‘relating’), then you can pal up with one of those guys and feel good about anything that he may do to help you meet the girl of your dreams.

This doesn’t mean that everything the sleazeball does is forbidden fruit, only that you shouldn’t go looking for help from that quarter – in my opinion.

Kardamom's avatar

@CugelTheClueless Sorry about the naughty word being the wrong one. I’ve never heard yours before.

I still think the lady’s friend is blocking you, because she and the friend have already decided that you aren’t the one they’re looking for. Most women are pretty good at being polite, while still trying to disuade a guy from continuing. You probably aren’t picking up on that. Sometimes the friend will come in to simply expadite matters.

I still think that looking for a good woman, for a real relationship in a bar, is about the worst place to find someone.

If all of your current interests are male dominated interests, then maybe you have to broaden your horizons. Try out some brand new things, that you may not have ever thought of, or may have thought of, but just didn’t pursue.

What kinds of things do you like, that you have described as male dominated? I’m thinking of something like comic-con or web-gaming. Is that what you mean? Comic con, is now actively persuing females with all sorts of things that appeal to both men and women. The online gaming thing isn’t helpful, only because it’s online. You need to find some new activities where you can go and be with groups of people, male and female. But if the things you are currently doing are mostly male oriented, then you need to find some other things to do (that you might never have considered before). Take some cooking classes (for a cuisine that you like) go to a singles mixer for some type of group that you sort of already belong to (religion, type of music, age group, divorcees, never marrieds looking to get married, potluck dinners). Join a book club (with males and females) if you have any type of physical activities that you like to do (that seem to have only males) then try something else like a bicycling group or a hiking group or a softball team or a group that regularly meets at the ice rink or roller blading group. Take some classes to learn some new skills that think you might be intersted in or join some clubs that you have never tried (painting, drawing, writing, acting workshop, tap dancing, line dancing, ballroom dancing, a garden club, a progressive dinner club, a wine and cheese tasting club, stand up comedy workshop, singing or karaoke) You have to broaden your horizons or you will just end up meeting the same kind of people that you’ve always met in bars. That’s always a crapshoot.

And if the places where you have been volunteering seem not have the mix of people you are looking for, then find some other places to volunteer. You have to mix it up a little bit and maybe find some new interests that aren’t totally male dominated. Ultimately, women won’t be interested in you in the long run, unless you have some common interests with them.

If your town has a local entertainment paper or if your newspaper has a listing for clubs and groups and classes and sporting events, start looking through there to find some things that you could try, that are likely to have both males and females in attendance.

And there’s nothing wrong with having a wingman to help you out, but the creepy guy you are considering is a horrible idea. Do you have any good male friends that you like and trust, that are not creepy? Women are afraid of and dislike creepy men, so if your wingman is like that, you will be deemed creepy by default, even if you aren’t.

Coloma's avatar

I just never embraced the concept of using someone, it’s just not in my make up.

If I don’t genuinely like a person I have nothing to do with them.

Who wants to pretend to be pals with someone that you secretly don’t like or trust. Talk about creating drama, fuck. lol

ilana's avatar

“C*** blocks me”? So you are only interested in a wing man to lay some women? I don’t think it’s ethical, maybe because I’m female, but I just think having a wing man is a douchey concept, in all cases.

CugelTheClueless's avatar

I think I’ll give my wingman another chance. I’ll hang out with him a bit more and see if my misgivings about him get stronger.

Thank you to those of you who gave well-intentioned advice. I see that some of you apparently come from other planets where males and females pursue pair-bonding in a rational manner. You’re lucky, but that’s not how it is here on Earth.

@Kardamom It’s not all in my mind. I once asked a woman for her number, and her friend literally clamped a hand over her friend’s mouth to stop her from giving me her number. (And BTW that’s mainly what I’m after—contacts, not one night stands.) I think just the fact that I’m at the bar alone somehow makes me look bad, because I always do much better when I’m with another guy, and my personality is the same whether I’m alone or with a friend.

@ilana see Konan’s link. Also see A Beautiful Mind (the scene where Russell Crowe’s character applies his genius to this problem). If women wouldn’t cockblock—and they do, sometimes apparently out of jealousy (they want to keep their friends to themselves), envy (if they are not the one being hit on), or sheer spite (just because they can)—men wouldn’t need wingmen.

ilana's avatar

Sounds like you’re hanging around with the wrong women…jealousy, envy, spite? Hmm…

bob_'s avatar

@CugelTheClueless More simply put, if you want to go talk to a woman, but she’s with another friend, your chances of success will be pretty low if you try it alone, hence the need for a wingman.

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