What type of punishment is there for the truly evil, if there is no afterlife?

Can you define punishment? And if there was is an afterlife, are you saying that there is some kind of punishment?
Also, what is the goal of punishment?

I’m not into having people suffer. I don’t know what suffering and pain teach people. In any case, being made to deliberately suffer at the hands of other people pretty much teaches people to be angry and want revenge. The last thing I want is someone evil being encouraged to seek revenge.

I would rather show them kindness. I would like to keep them in a humane setting. I would restrict their freedom, and try to teach them how to come to peace with themselves and to forgive themselves and to learn to love others.

To me, that is the type of punishment I would like to see. My goal is not to make people worse, but to give them a chance at making up for the hurt they have caused others.

No afterlife means no moral code now so no consequences.

Who cares? If the person is dead, they are unable to do any more harm.

Why do you want to be so vindictive? Wherefore is the lust for punishment? The person, in your example, is dead. Why would you want to inflict pain and punishment on him or her?

This questions says a lot more about YOUR personality than it does about the dead person. And that scares me.

There is no such thing as truly evil in my mind.

No afterlife means no moral code? Wow, @smilingheart1 keep smiling and keep believing if that is all that keeps you from being a bad person.

@elbanditoroso, It is a simple hypothetical question. No need to get personal. @Keep_on_running, I’ll use the most obvious example. In your opinion was Hitler not truly evil?

No person is “truly evil” People are led astray and not well in their own minds. That doesn’t go to say that What they do is right, but if society were to help them instead of telling them they’re going to “hell” Or even prevent people from becoming “Evil” then there would be no need for punishment.
I think that punishment could even come in their own remorse and guilt, as that can drive a person to insanity.

That’s pretty harsh, @smilingheart1.

@tom_g, This is not about some quest for corporal punishment. I was rather curious to see what others, of different opinions about the afterlife, had to say about “the afterlife”. I read and hear about some truly horrible things that people do to each other all the time and it makes me wonder if they will ever have to account for what they did or not.

I believe in being good and kind to others for the sake of humanity, not because I might be rewarded in “the afterlife” Not everyone believes in that.

@lukiarobecheck I thought Hitler might be mentioned sometime here. No, he’s not evil, because I don’t believe in the religious concept of evil, as if some higher power cast an “evil spell” on a human being.

Hitler was the way he was because of so many biological, environmental, physical factors that led him there unfortunately. Of course what he did was indescribable, but it was not through the devil that he came to be.

@lukiarobecheck: “I read and hear about some truly horrible things that people do to each other all the time and it makes me wonder if they will ever have to account for what they did or not.”

I’m not trying to avoid the question. I honestly have a problem with the term “punishment”. What does it mean for you when you say “account for” or “punish”?

I think people are mainly stupid, easily led and psychologically fragile. Evil is as Evil does, to borrow and paraphrase. I don’t think threats of jail, the death penalty or eternal damnation are going to deter Evil. Evil happens because people are capable of it, not because they are led by the devil or some such fairytale.

Our very human need for revenge and punishment has invented the afterlife as a carrot to behave while we are alive. People believing that the bad guys will go to hell comforts some. I feel bad for people who need to believe that because the evil then still has a hold on them, even when it is gone.

@lukiarobecheck You are making some very simplistic assumptions in this question, so you are probably going to raise some people’s hackles. To name a few:

A person can be “truly evil” or totally beyond forgiveness.
“Punishment” has any purpose where the “truly evil” person is concerned.
“Hell” is an appropriate punishment for a “truly evil” person.
The “truly evil” person suffers no punishment in life.

Since I don’t agree with any of these premises, I don’t know that I can satisfactorily answer your question.

“This questions says a lot more about YOUR personality than it does about the dead person. And that scares me.”

@elbanditoroso I don’t get why you had to jump all over the OP. He or she is just asking a question. Why get personal?

Eternal damnation by historians.

Yes, I agree, “evil” is nothing more than ego gone wild, and/or in certain situations, brain chemistry issues that cause bad behavior, or lack of conscience, as in sociopathic personalities. “Evil” is created 9 times out of 10 by fucked up early life experiences, severe abuse, and certain cultural programming as in the case of many terrorists that are acting on their cultures faulty belief systems.
“Evil” really translates to disturbed character and a wounded soul and psyche.

The best that can be done as ” punishment” goes is to keep the truly disturbed away from society and provide humane care.

The answer is implied in your question. If a truly evil person is not punished during his/her life then the person goes unpunished, as there is no afterlife.

@tom_g, I am looking at “punishment” in a heaven and hell type scenario. Good people go to heaven, bad people go to hell. That is the type of punishment I am concerned with. I guess I was curious to see if there is a secular alternative to hell. Naively, I made an assumption there was a “secular hell” I also stupidly inserted religious dogma into areas it does not exist. In an eternal dreamless sleep, there simply is nothing. And in nothing I have an answer.

No, nothing will happen to them after death. At least, nothing different than what will happen to anyone else. I guess the desire for retribution is a natural human desire, but it’s nothing I care too much about. Yes, sometimes it can be disturbing to see evil people essentially get off “Scot free” and then die, but that’s life. Hopefully, they’ll be punished/captured/stopped in this life, and that’s the best we can do.

Everyone’s answers here have truly given me a lot more to ponder. :-)

@lukiarobecheck: “tom_g, I am looking at “punishment” in a heaven and hell type scenario. Good people go to heaven, bad people go to hell.”

Well, I figured. But it still doesn’t work for me. Punishment implies some kind of justice. From my perspective, the common view of heaven/hell and “punishment” that I know from my religious upbringing doesn’t seem to have anything at all to do with justice. In fact, there is really no practical purpose for the “punishment” at all. Add to that the fact that the concept of an eternal afterlife essentially robs this life of any meaning and strips any potential god(s) of their moral authority.

Additionally, I don’t use the term “punish” in my life because it doesn’t make any sense to me. I don’t “punish” my kids. I don’t wish for “punishment” for people who have done things that I find morally unacceptable.
I don’t think I’m alone, so I just wanted to point out that the question is loaded in more ways than you might have thought.

I don’t know that there is any karmic quid pro quo. But there seems to be, if you just wait long enough. Few people seem to have the patience for that, though.

I like what @wundayatta says*: Forgiveness can really surprise those who need it, and it also seems to free those who give it. So I recommend forgiveness for your own sake, if you can offer it. I think what happens there is internal; when you work your mind around to be able to offer forgiveness, some of your own pain and hurt is alleviated. So regardless of what it does to or for the recipient, the giver’s life is improved simply by having processed the injury in your own mind. That’s how it seems to work for me, anyway.

And I have always subscribed to the dictum that The best revenge is living well. Live your own life, live it well, and enjoy the hell out of it. Let those who would injure you suffer their own fate, because they will. They will. We all do.

* I haven’t even read all of his response, and almost none of the others.

@CWOTUS, Well thought out answer.
@tom_g, So hypothetically speaking, if someone was to brutally murder your kids, punishment would still be meaningless to you?

They get multimillion dollar annual bonuses and low tax rates.

@lukiarobecheck: ”@tom_g, So hypothetically speaking, if someone was to brutally murder your kids, punishment would still be meaningless to you?”

Yes. My instinct would be to find this person and slowly rip them to shreds. However, the act of doing this to the person has no (absolutely no-damn-thing) to do with justice. The “that’ll learn ya” or “that’ll teach him” means shit. It wouldn’t teach him anything other than the thought that he probably should have killed me first.

After ripping apart the murderer, I’d be stuck with the fact that it solved absolutely nothing, and I’d have to go kill myself.

Do you somehow feel that torturing this murderer would set something right in the world? Do you think it would make up for (in even the smallest way) the fact that he brutally murdered my kids, and now my kids are no more?

“Punishment”/eye-for-eye makes sense in an explanatory way. That is, we are animals that may have desires to do things that don’t make sense. But it in no way makes sense in discussions about justice. I don’t see this concept of “punishment” having any place in a discussion about ethics.

I think the punishment is in death in that case. To die and realize at the final moment that you wasted your time in hurting others and that there would be no one to morn you. No one who cares. Even if they don’t believe in that, I think everyone fears death in solitude. Some find faith at the last moments but realize it may be too late and they may have had an opportunity of basking in the light instead of an eternity of darkness. Some realize they have been in darkness all their lives.
Death is the final equalizer. We all die with uncertainties of our lives but good people have no regrets or few and bad people can only reflect on a life filled with chaos, hatred and anger. I think that is the final and real punishment.

The question in itself is a dead end since obviously there would be no punishment in annihilation. However there is a secular view of God and the afterlife that has been researched by many great scientists, doctors, psychologists, philosophers, etc. Some of these views come from the likes of Sir William Crookes, Sir Oliver Lodge, Sir William Barrett, Ron D Pearson, Brian Josephson and many other great names that may surprise you. These were people (just naming a very few of them here) that have researched the ‘paranormal’ and the afterlife and yes there is a nonreligious secular view of these concepts believe it or not. Since you’ve asked the best I can do for you at the moment is to provide you with this link about what happens to ‘evil’ people when they pass on, according to the secular view of the afterlife.

The people to whom you refer typically are sociopaths whose behaviour is rarely if ever changed by punishment of any kind. If vigilante justice resulting in murder is what you have in mind, please don’t tell me about it!

cut off their feet, cut off their fingers cut off their nose, their lips, cut off the tongue, gouge out the eyes, epilate their facial hair, but leave the ears and tattoo their crime upon their forehead so they hear the voices and whispers of disgust at the physical monstrosity they appear to be.

I think @tom_g is onto something. Whether you can forgive or not depends on you and how well you can process and get over injuries done to you. It doesn’t depend on anyone else. If you can get to a point (or suffer such slight injury) that forgiveness is possible or even easy for you, then good on ya’.

But punishment? What does it accomplish? It makes some people feel that some kind of tit-for-tat exchange of injury has occurred, and some people consider that to be justice. I don’t.

I do not think that jail should be the brutal place that it often is. I do think that some people who are guilty of serious (expensive), repeat or violent offenses against individuals or “society in general” (when they commit crimes that are not against individuals) should be enjoined from doing that by physically removing them from our presence for a time. But I don’t think that should be “punishment” so much as simple “exile” or “removal”. The fact that jails are in fact violent and brutal places (often for both inmates and guards), makes me wonder if jail can possibly be the answer, no matter how much “prison reform” we actually attempt.

They shall be condemned to an eternity of halitosis suffering mechanics from Delaware, snogging them with tongues & everything.

Not only do they have the deathbed reckoning, as @Pandora stated, but they are also likely to live unhappy lives, possibly in prison if they get caught. Also, they forfeit the benefits of human sympathy and companionship.

Insightful answers all. Thanks! Maybe this helps.
My original questions stems from the case of Josh Powell. If you have not heard of the case, look him up. He was suspected of killing his wife, which was never proven. Then he took a hatchet to his two young sons, doused the house in gas and lit a match. The house exploded and burned to the ground.
I have nothing personal invested in the case, and I am planning on doing nothing about it. What can any one do? So to all those out there thinking I am going to kill, or need to forgive, it’s not me. The evil-doer in this case, Josh Powell, is dead, and can no longer hurt anyone or anything. So I have no need for retribution. But as the story continued to haunt me I found myself wanting hell to exist specifically for this person. I mean to hack your own flesh and blood to death and set it all on fire deserves a special place in hell. I don’t even believe in hell. But at that moment I wish there was. Call it wrong, label me as a person you would want nothing to do with because I felt anger and had a moment of weakness. That’s fine. In the moment, I wanted more than just the “nothingness” that comes after death for this person.
Now that I’ve come down, I’m more apt to see how thinking that is no better than what he did, and blah blah blah and so on and so forth. We are human and capable of a wide range of emotion and ways to deal with that emotion. It is all in how you handle it. Believer on non, I guess we will all get “ours” in the end. Whatever that may mean.

@lukiarobecheck That case made me think about justice too, but in a different way. The two boys died young, and there’s nothing that can give them their lives back. Punishing the father wouldn’t have brought them any justice, even if it’s what the father deserved. We don’t have the power to right wrongs like that; the only things we have are flawed human justice and the consequences of our own actions.

@tom_g “Punishment”/eye-for-eye makes sense in an explanatory way. Maybe, but I think that what it’s really about is revenge. Our so-called “justice” system is primarily about revenge. It is about making victims feel somehow better by thinking that the criminal feels bad. Maybe not as bad as the victim feels, but as close to that as possible.

People might equate it with justice in a sense of balancing the scales of pain and loss. You take something from me, then I will revenge myself (via the blind justice system) and take something of equal value plus a little bit more from you.

The problem is that revenge/punishment does not make anything better. It only makes someone a bit worse. And this kind of justice not only makes one person’s life worse—it can also make everyone’s life worse. This is because if you let the criminal go after they have paid their debt to “society,” they are usually much more talented criminals whose minds have been warped far more by the “justice system.” They are much more likely to go out a commit worse crimes than they were if we did nothing to them, I believe.

The justice system, in other words, is designed to keep itself in business, by growing more and worse criminals.

In my opinion, the justice system should be about fixing the problem of crime. It should be about reforming criminals. It should be about fixing their psychological issues. It should be about giving them opportunities they’ve never had. It should be about keeping them from committing further crimes. It should be about education. It should be about love.

Of course, my view will never catch on, generally, because most people are too immature to get beyond their own pain and seeking retribution for that. And, indeed, game theory teaches us that “tit for tat” is an excellent strategy. And we do not want criminals to think they will be rewarded for criminal behavior.

But there are other ways of balancing the scales. Instead of taking away from the criminal, we might allow them to try to make up for the harm they created. Plus interest. They could have a choice of paying by suffering, or paying by making those they harmed whole in some way. And if they choose to try to make their victims whole, then I think they deserve the support of the justice system in making that happen.

@wundayatta – I agree with your post. Doesn’t conflict in any way with what I said.

@wundayatta Yes, this is how I feel about punishment, too – both via the criminal justice system and via a religious “hell”. Thank you for expressing it so well.

I’ve never heard of any ‘truly evil’ person consigning anyone to eternal punishment in the afterlife. Only those who think they are ‘good’ do that.

Ooh, @flutherother. I love that realization!

@flutherother swoops in and cuts through the crap. FTW