What do Christianity and Stockholm syndrome have in common?

I never thought about that, but it’s not completely similar: since children usually have no choice and are indoctrinated by their parents, they start to see no problem with it or are attracted. But children never actually fight back and give up, they just don’t know any better so they believe it.

I guess if an older person started to fight back and think for themselves, but were reprimanded by the authorities in their life, causing them to be afraid and just accept, that would be more similar, but they can still walk away if they really wanted to. This is why you have undercover atheists.

Holy shit, what an awesome question. I never thought about the two angles either. If you take any shit I’ll stand right there with you.

Seems to me that christianity revolves around persecution complex on a mass scale.
It’s like in years gone by, parents would threaten their own children with physical violence if the dared to utter “unholy” thoughts.

Let’s try to keep this one civil. I don’t want the theists to think I’m making any calls on their thoughts. JT, you know I respect your views.

Oh, please send this to the Christians on Fluther. I’m sure they will have some interesting things to say about having their faith likened to desperate survival measures employed by kidnapped victims whose lives are in danger. Our representative Christians on this site strike me as being intelligent and capable of fully independent choice and thought. As, come to think of it, are all of the Christians that I know personally.

@Adirondackwannabe : Gosh, thanks so much for the gentle reprimand on a post I hadn’t finished writing. Your first sentence kind of negates your second.

I knew I shot myself in the foot when I hit the answer button. I was directing that at the atheists that go so crazy on these threads.

Well, one difference is that the kidnapper is real.

You speak of that which you do not understand, and indeed, cannot. It’s far easier to mock than to seek the truth and face it with honor and courage.

Do you consider your relationship with your parents to be Stockholm Syndrome?

@filmfann: My parents do not threaten to throw me into Hell forever if I disobey them.

@CaptainHarley: As for “mocking”, if there is any belief I am challenging, it’s one I have had myself in the past. This is a question, and truth is important to me. If you feel I am wrong, that’s fine for you to say. I’d appreciate an explanation instead of you treating me like I’m stupid and incapable of understanding. I didn’t ask this question to start a fight. I asked it hoping for discussion on both sides. One where people will look at both sides and take both sides seriously instead of writing either side off. In my description, I invited people who disagree that Christianity has any similarities to have a chance to have a say. I am being fair—perhaps even more than fair. A lot of thought went into this question and I tried very hard to word my description in such a way that bitterness would hopefully be cast aside by everyone who chooses to respond, no matter what opinion he or she holds. All of our opinions are important, no matter how much we may disagree. I’d very much like it if it can be proven that there are no similarities at all. That would give me more peace than the other way around.

I don’t see any sort of link.

Stockholm syndrome is to have sympathy for your captors after a period of time being imprisoned by them. There is no such imprisonment in Christianity. You are free to go and leave the faith as you please, just because the “consequences” of recanting your faith aren’t seen as positive does not mean you do not have a choice, you do.

It’s not stockholm syndrome if you feel pressured to not leave a birthday party early because they will be cake at the end and leaving means you won’t get any.

you can also escape your captor if you want, but chances are he will kill you if you do. Which is actually a bit better than eternal torture

It would be a gross over-reach to see this as fully accounting for Christian devotion, but a similar mechanism could conceivably enter into the psychology of some believers.

The commonality I see is the tendency of some people to want to be in the good graces of power. When faced with an authority that wields the power to either make your life miserable or tolerable, people respond differently. Some are defiant, and others will align themselves with the authority. This is a simple survival strategy.

It’s not at all uncommon for second children in families with harsh parents to adopt this strategy. They see their older siblings catch hell for rebelling against power, so they become the “good” kid. You see it in totalitarian regimes, as well: some become resistance fighters, others kowtow to the authority. There are still devoted fans of Stalin, after all.

It’s certainly possible to read portions of the Bible as appealing to this kind of psychology. It’s pretty easy to find the unambiguous message that God can snuff us anytime He wants, so we should seek to be on his good side rather than his shit list. I think this view follows naturally from the doctrine of original sin. If it’s our nature to break bad, then we need the threat of punishment to keep us in line. Since it’s still impossible to not screw up, it all comes down to Grace; you can’t be good enough, but you can remain in God’s favor by being humble and loving Him.

Since I am very open-minded when it comes to subjects like this, I find this thread very interesting. Yes, I can see the similarities. This might not be true for everybody, but Christianity taught me that humans are bad, can’t follow the commandments, and then are punished for it. In the Christian philosophy, God created us. Why did he create us as inherently evil? And then punish us for being the way we are. That seems unfair. The snake in the garden tempted us to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, and that was the one thing that God really didn’t want us to do. So why did he put the tree there? And why did he want us to remain stupid, for that matter. Christians will tell you all kinds of things about free agency and all, but it isn’t free agency if exercising your free agency brings the hammer down on your head. I don’t get it – makes no sense to me.

Either do as god says or suffer the consequences.

I get where you’re going… but isn’t that true of most religions? That either you play by that religion’s rules, or bad things will happen to you? Have a covenant with G-d, or he won’t protect you. Become enlightened, or you’ll have to be reincarnated. This seems like a really common theme within all religions.

ETA: Plus, God does give you a way to escape your “hostage” situation; real hostage-takers (like the one in Stolkholm) don’t, and that helplessness and inability to effectively fight against the hostage-taker is part of what creates Stolkholm Syndrome in real life.

@Skaggfacemutt Lots of Christians reject the idea of free agency.

/facepalm

I believe that the comparison is valid. The Christian God is jealous, vindictive, deceitful, selfish, and prone to delivering acts of mass suffering onto those who defy him, as well as those who worship him. His primary means of human interaction are based on fear and brutal punishment. It’s no coincidence that the universal symbol of Christianity, the cross, is the representation of a torture device.

The arbitrary and merciless actions of God are indeed similar to those of any cruel captor. The mistrust and fear of retribution keeps the captives eternally fearful and at the will of the captor. The never-ending fear and torment leads us to seek acceptance from our tormentor in hopes of a reprieve.

It’s an interesting analogy. This was never my experience with Christianity (and I’ve been in and out), but I know a couple of people who grew up in “fire and brimstone” households who have real scars from that experience, and I’m sure this would make for an interesting discussion for them, even if they don’t totally agree with it.

I don’t get why people are taking this question so personally.

Christianity is a religion, whereas Stockholm syndrome is a psychological affliction. These are not the kinds of things one can compare to one another. If you are asking about similarities between the psychology of those who are Christians and the psychology of those who are afflicted with Stockholm syndrome, however, that is another story. I would suggest that there may be some overlap as a matter of historical fact, but that there need not necessarily have been one. That is to say, I do not think that Christianity can only operate in such a way that yields similar psychological results to Stockholm syndrome. Where it does, I also think it fair to say that Christianity has been abused in that case.

It should not be surprising to us that people who want power and control have abused religion in order to get it. Almost every idea or feeling that strongly pulls at a sizable group of people has been abused by someone looking for power and control. I suspect that most of Fluther’s Christians would be happy to admit that Christianity has been abused by various groups in the past, and maybe even that they have been abused by it at some point. Some might even admit to having once been among the abusers. What I suspect they would all tell us, however, is that there is an important difference between the brand of Christianity that abuses and the brand of Christianity that does not. And if they are doing there best not only to promote non-abusive Christianity, but also to eliminate abusive Christianity, then I would suggest we not hold the defectors from decency against them.

@saviorfare Religion is a psychological affliction, in my view. In other words, a dillusion. That is why I CAN compare them. The validity of your first sentence depends largely on your definition of religion.

In your very next sentence, you say that the psychology of the two have similarities. I agree.

I don’t feel that way because of other people who abuse religion for power and control, although there is certainly a lot of that going around. I feel that way because I have come to that conclusion all on my own through logic, common sense, and research.

The Stockholm syndrome is the tendency people have to agree with the group. It is built into our nature as we are social animals. It applies to all sorts of things, not just Christianity. It is not a bad trait by and large.

@flutherother That is definitely not the definition of Stockholm syndrome.

I am reading everything, but I would like to address this one issue.

@Aethelflaed

”... but isn’t that true of most religions? That either you play by that religion’s rules, or bad things will happen to you? Have a covenant with G-d, or he won’t protect you. Become enlightened, or you’ll have to be reincarnated. This seems like a really common theme within all religions.”

I didn’t grow up in a Muslim home, or a Sikh home, or a home belonging to any religion that does not follow the Bible. I chose Christianity because it’s what I know. The reason I single Christianity out is because I used to consider myself a Christian and I’ve believed the Bible is the Word of God. There are ways in which I still do. You might ask why I don’t consider myself a Christian with that confession. Well, the reason is pretty simple. When I was a teenager, I decided to shed the beliefs my parents taught me in the best way I knew how in search of my own path for truth. I wanted to know that I believed what I did because I believed it, not ‘cause my parents did. It hasn’t been the easiest emotional road to travel… and one of the reasons for that is this “fear of God’s punishment”. It holds me back in ways I wish it wouldn’t. I feel completely and utterly trapped with no way of escaping it, save one alternative. It seems that the only way to feel at peace again… completely… is to just accept Christianity. That is why it reminds me of Stockholm syndrome—because of how it’s affected me, and how it’s affecting me right now, and how it will likely affect me in the future. If this situation I have found myself in cannot be compared to Stockholm syndrome, what can it be compared to that will help me feel better about it?

@sinscriven I have to disagree with you. I know several friends who were believers. Indoctrinated from childhood. When they grew up and found their own truth about religion, they all said they felt a prisoner to a faith they had no faith in. So yes, some who believe/believed feel or felt imprisoned..

“Say! Isn’t that train over there approaching that curve a little too fast?”

@Russell_D_SpacePoet I know that feeling all too well. I may say I no longer consider myself a Christian, but I still feel like a prisoner to the God of the Bible and the Bible itself. It is not always easy to leave a faith. I strongly believed. And I feel stuck. Fear is what I know. I find it hard to imagine me living a life without it. I am no stranger to feeling I am supposed to live in fear of God’s wrath as well. There are beliefs I’ve found hard to shake. They’ve been taught well… and I’ve been trained well, but maybe not well enough.

btw, I love the whole “Before I get attacked for this, I’d like you to know that I used to consider myself a Christian and the whole “relationship with Jesus or suffer in Hell” thing reminds me of Stockholm syndrome.” thing.
It’s like: Hey, don’t dump on me for asking this, because I used to be a fucking Christian.
You are shitting all over my faith, and seem surprised I might not be happy with it.
I think the comment about loving your parents and Stockholm syndrome was on target. Your parents don’t ban you to Hell’s flames, but they ground you, making you stay in your room, and force you to eat vegetables.

^ If you must pry into my personal life, I do feel that I am a victim of Stockholm syndrome with my father as well. For your information, I was thrown at a wall and kicked out of my own home when I was 15 years old just because I had a boyfriend that I had never held hands with… and was not allowed back in unless I promised to dump him and rip up his picture. When I told my boyfriend at the time this, he ended up dumping me over it eventually and one of his reasons for that was that he was scared for me.. of what my Dad would do if we were still together. The worst part of it is that my Dad does not even remember. I reminded him about him doing that, and he told me he won’t be accused of such a thing without proof. That hurt. And I have defended my Dad constantly out of fear of his anger, despite things he’s done that I hate and feel people never deserved. So, yes, I would go as far as to compare parents behaviour to Stockholm syndrome as well. And why was I not allowed to be with this boy, may you ask? ‘Cause my Dad thought I was too young to be dating, too young to be thinking about marriage, that I should not go after guys unless I am ready to be married…. and then he wonders why children of his go behind his back when they date and don’t tell him. To add on to this, he treated me this way because he felt it was his God-given right to based on Bible teachings and that I should do everything he says or I was in the wrong because children are to obey their parents.

Parents punish their children to get them back on course. I never got the impression that that’s what hell is for.

I am not prying into your personal life, and will just say that we all have our private hells to go through.
It is important, though, to have consideration for people who don’t agree with you, be it religion, politics, sexuality, or whatever.

I have been fair, @filmfann. Nowhere did I say you could not have your own opinion. And the question about my parents is prying into my personal life.

@AnonymousGirl Sorry, that was a rhetorical question.

Well, it resulted in me being in tears because of memories it brought back. I asked this question because of my experiences, not yours. My question is valid. And you are free to disagree with me. I have already said in this thread that I didn’t ask this question to start a fight… and that was true. I wasn’t looking for a fight and I don’t want one now. That’s why I worded my description the way I did in the first place. It’s understanding that I want. And I’d feel more at peace if it can be proven that there are no similarities at all. I’ve said as much before.

Considering that the term “Stockholm Syndrome” was coined after some people were held hostage.. I’d say the connection between it and Christianity is pure rhetoric.

The attempted connection is so loosely related that it could be used to describe any idea or practice. Why not compare “Stockholm Syndrome” to the choice to become a Liberal? Why not compare it to atheism, communism, socialism, or any other sect?

Well… probably because it is rhetoric.

@ucme The persecution complex certainly exists within the boundaries of some forms of religion. But it isn’t correct to generalize about the whole lot of them. That’s basically the same as saying all people are blue because some people are blue.

That’s a stretch. The Stockholm syndrome usually applies to those that reasonably fear for their lives, and is thus a severe neurosis or mild psychosis.

@digitalimpression I am talking to a friend on Google Chat right now who compared it to politics. I see nothing wrong with that. The main question itself doesn’t say Christianity and Stockholm syndrome have anything in common. It asks what they do have in common… and I have said that people are free to answer “Nothing” if they want to in my own way. What I said is that it reminds me of Stockholm syndrome and explained the reason why. Further on, I have made it pretty clear that I feel it may have been Stockholm syndrome in my situation. I am fully aware that my situation isn’t the same as everybody else’s. It was easier to ask about Christianity as a whole than just my experience, though. I wanted a discussion. I figured people would have more to say. And, well, I was right, wasn’t I? If I didn’t make this a general question, it might not have attracted as much attention or as much discussion. From all sides, I want opinions. Even from people who think my comparison is ridiculous.

@AnonymousGirl I submit, from a purely speculative position of course (being that I don’t know you in the least), that the form of Christianity that made you feel so .. persecuted.. was not the fault of Christianity at all. Instead, I believe it was the fault of those who did not know how to practice it .

The question may not have specifically stated that there were similarities, however, coupled with the description, it is implied that there are. Your last statement confirms that.

As a short answer to the question: Nothing.

^ I wouldn’t say my Dad has gone as far as the Westboro Baptist Church. He never pickets funerals and he doesn’t hate gay people or soldiers. There are more things the WBC does that he does not agree with.

How do you feel Christianity should be practised?

@AnonymousGirl I chose an extreme example just to get the point across. =)

It would take more than this little block to describe to you how I feel it should be practiced. Suffice it to say, you shouldn’t feel persecuted.. you should feel… freed. You should feel happiness.. and not the sort of “happiness” that comes with glaucoma medication.. rather.. the sort of happiness that comes with undeniable and indescribable contentment and peace.

Phil 4:7
“And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. ”

John 16:22
“And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.”

John 16:24
“Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.”

John 16:33
“These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”

@digitalimpression That’s fine.

I have felt peaceful in the past, in Christianity. Where that changed was when in High School. I met people who questioned me, said things I didn’t like, etc. The biggest change may have come when I was 17… and started dating a guy who was really into sex and pornography. Oh no. Does this mean I should have put a NSFW on the title? Anyway, yeah… things changed a lot then. I’d wanted to save my virginity for marriage, to have my first kiss on my wedding day, etc. Well, my dreams were crushed. This boyfriend took my first kiss, sexually assaulted me, and pressured me into sex. One of the reasons I stayed with him was that I had told myself that the first guy I did sexual things with would be the guy I would be with for the rest of my life…... a dangerous belief, I tell you. I felt ashamed of myself, dirty, filthy, disgusting. Many things I felt, but I also felt that I had to do as he said because he was the guy and I should please him in everything, or I was wrong. I didn’t know how to fight back and I was too scared to. He was much stronger than I was. In private, he’d do these things. In public, he’d be sweet and gentle with me much of the time. I had friends of mine and his tell me I was lucky. I thought surely there was something wrong with me if they could see how lucky I was and I felt doubts, so I convinced myself they were right. =s He introduced me to other things as well that I had hated so much in the past… In the beginning of the relationship, he was nice and sweet… and I felt special that he waited over a year for me to have sex. I thought that meant he loved me. Isn’t that what they say—that a guy who loves you will wait? But then I found out later on that he had cheated on me before he forced his way into me. My dreams. Crushed. And, in many ways, I feel like it’s my fault. I was so naïve, so trusting. I was taught to esteem others as better than myself and I did. I gave people many benefits of the doubt, but where did it get me in the end? I ended up feeling like a worthless slut who deserved to be treated so badly. I convinced myself it was all my fault, and not his at all. It took a long time for me to even admit any of this. And there are times when I feel guilty that I have. Protecting his reputation became the most important thing in the world to me while I was with him. I felt more and more like I didn’t deserve Heaven every day I felt like I was sinning… and felt that that surely meant I wasn’t a true Christian.

^ I’m very sorry that you had to go through that. It’s a shame that someone who was obviously a very evil person helped to force you away from Christianity. I understand how you felt with the marriage thing. The courtship process can often be confusing, especially at the age of 17. It is not an uncommon thing to react in the way you have. I’ve done it myself a time or two. I tended to blame myself for things, and take it a step further and hate God for things that happened. It wasn’t until I went through a lot of grief and pain that I realized that it wasn’t God or myself that was at fault. Instead of the villain, I believe God had open arms, waiting for me to return like the prodigal son did.

In the world ye shall have tribulation

I won’t attempt to “witness” to you further here, but I wish I could express adequately how empathetic I am to your story and how it can be overcome.

@AnonymousGirl “I strongly believed. And I feel stuck. Fear is what I know. I am no stranger to feeling I am supposed to live in fear of God’s wrath as well.”

“I felt ashamed of myself, dirty, filthy, disgusting.”

I don’t know where to begin.

Look, irrespective of the Stockhol Syndrome analogy, what I do know is that if you look at the way religion’s work, they’re remarkably consistent.

In the absence of evidence for god(s), let alone any consistent evidence for what god might want if he/she/it/they existed, people fill the vacuum, and they don’t fill it arbitrarily. They fill the void with ideas that serve themselves.

It’s “pious” men claiming a special mandate to control the behaviour of other men. It’s men claiming a supernatural and unchallengable right to control women and keep them subservient. It’s religious parents claiming a supernatural right to control the lives of their children. It’s religious societies claiming the right to control other societies.

Religion is a hierarchy of people controlling others, using god and damnation as an excuse and enforcer.

It’s quite brilliant, in a tragic sort of way, if you think about it.

For instance, convince people that they’re being watched 24/7. Claim that which a person has least control over (e.g. sexual desires), are evil. And voila. Everyone can’t help but fail, and the solution to this nonexistent problem, is of course, being on your knees and begging for a cure from the same men and insitutions that invented the imaginery disease in the first place. And if you don’t, you’ll burn.

You’re story is tragic. You’ve been repeatedly betrayed.

I don’t know what the answer is. Perhaps professional help is needed.

All I can tell you is that one path out of the fear, might be to realise that anyone who wants you to live in fear of god, is not your friend. That there’s nothing shameful or wrong about consensual sex and wanting to love another person in that way. That there is no such thing as hell, and no vengeful god listening to your thoughts and judging your actions, but there are people using guilt and fear to try and control you.

And they have no right.

A nice example of someone becoming empowered

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17215248

@Skaggfacemutt @AdamF Religion ≠ Christianity. Religion ≠ theism. Do you both really intend your statements to apply to all religions?

@AnonymousGirl Reading your posts brings back very bad memories for me. My first husband was the culprit. He used religion as a weapon. He could be abusive and mean, and then say that it was “righteous anger” and compared his temper tantrums with Jesus throwing over the tables of the money changers. Or that it was his duty as a husband/father to MAKE us be righteous. He also used to scream in my face that I was evil, which was pretty funny considering that I am the squarest person in my family. I never smoked, drank or partied. The only “evil” think I ever did was disagree with him. Oh, and if he couldn’t get his way with all of his manipulations, then he would have a “vision” from God that he was right! So I am very sympathetic to your bad experiences.

@SavoirFaire Nope.

Perhaps at the time of writing I was more focused on my concern for her wellbeing than being fair to whatever proportion of the world’s religions are exceptions.

@AdamF I didn’t realize that being helpful and being accurate were mutually exclusive. My apologies.

@SavoirFaire What? I agreed with you.

@AdamF Ah, I see. I thought you were being sarcastic and responded in kind. My genuine apologies this time.

@SavoirFaire No worries. On a second reading of my response, I can see how it could be interpreted that way.

@AnonymousGirl I grew up in Alabama near a large group of Christian extremists and a friend of mine had to be ‘rescued’ from a compound-like community. Some of my family members come really close to be extremists—they’re Pentecostal and other charismatic religions. I know people who send their kids to Jesus Camps.

I have seen how these type of Christians function and I don’t think people can make the connection between the Stockholm Syndrome and Christianity unless they’ve seen these types of Christians who do things like force a wife to put her hand in a box of snakes (unfortunately, this was 20 miles away from where I lived). Not all Christians are like that and it can be really disconcerting and understandable for Christians who are not like that to think of the Stockholm Syndrome in the same sentence as their religion.

So yes, I agree that these extremist-fundamentalist Christians can seriously create a Stockholm Syndrome—the wives and children, especially, want so bad to be approved of and accepted, not just by Dad, but by the church members. It’s also easier to defend your abuser than it is to accuse him.