Social Question

seawulf575's avatar

Is the kneeling by pro athletes hypocritical?

Asked by seawulf575 (11040points) 1 week ago

Kneeling during the national anthem started by Colin Kaepernick is supposed to show solidarity against oppression. Basically, America is evil and until the oppression in our nation is gone, the protests need to go on. He even pushed to have Nike (one of his sponsors) pull an American flag designed shoe from the market because the flag “was an offensive symbol”. Meanwhile, other pro athletes have joined in the castigation of our nation for the oppression of blacks. And Nike is sponsoring some of these players.
But Nike uses slave labor to make their product. The Chinese ship Muslim slaves (Uyghurs) to factories to make products. Nike, BMW, Apple and others use these “workers” to make products and pay next to nothing for their services.
Is it hypocritical to protest America “oppression” and make tons of money from slaves in another country?

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95 Answers

YARNLADY's avatar

Probably, yes, but most people only protest what they, themselves experience. In fact, the ones you mentioned are probably completely unaware of the facts.

zenvelo's avatar

It is not to pretest “oppression”, it is to protest police killing of black people disproportionately for minor crimes and for being black in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Until you understand the protest, you are part of the problem.

hmmmmmm's avatar

No. But this is a great time to shed your “hypocrisy” obsession. Even if it were hypocritical (it’s not), that would say absolutely nothing about the protests, the kneelers, and the validity of their grievances. In other words, one could answer “yes” and still be 100% behind their efforts.

seawulf575's avatar

@YARNLADY I might believe that except most of those kneeling haven’t experienced any of the stuff they are protesting about. In fact, it was the freedoms and opportunities in this country that allowed 100% of them to reach the current status they all have. So to say this country is evil seems, well, hypocritical again.

seawulf575's avatar

@zenvelo Huh. So why did Kaepernick want the American Flag removed from the Nike shoes? But seriously, isn’t that all part of oppression? Isn’t the attitude of “being black in the wrong place at the wrong time” just another term for oppression? And by that logic, we are back to it must just be a case of being Uyghur in the wrong place at the wrong time. But that’s okay, right? Since they aren’t black, that makes all the difference?

LostInParadise's avatar

Everything connects to everything else. Should we avoid using Apple and Amazon because some of that same Chinese labor is used to make their products?

Nike is supporting Kaepernick’s protest against mistreatment of blacks. Why should he reject it? Maybe we should accuse Nike of being hypocritical.

And it was not the current American flag that Kaerpernick was protesting. It was the original 13 star flag that flew during a time when there was slavery. Link

seawulf575's avatar

@LostInParadise Isn’t that the same logic used by the South prior to the Civil War? Why should we avoid using Cotton just because some African slaves are used to pick it? In answer to your question, yes, we should avoid using Apple and Amazon for that exact reason. If slavery is a bad thing (and I believe it is), then it isn’t right to say “it was bad 150 years ago in the USA” but ignore, and benefit from it, when it’s going on in 2020 in China.
As for the flag, wasn’t that the same flag that was created when we were throwing off the tyranny of England and forming up our own nation? Yeah, to distill those actions and achievements down to “we had slaves at that time” is really ignorant. And it speaks volumes about the mentality of the protests. They ignore the 300,000 white people that fought and died to end slavery. They ignore the social battles that have been fought for the 150 years since. They ignore the Civil Rights Act of 1964. They ignore the Voting Rights act. They ignore the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments like they are nothing. They try to distill every person and action down to one thing that happened long, long ago and ignore everything since all in an effort to, as far as I can tell, be controversial.

LostInParadise's avatar

I am glad to see that you are so high minded. I assume that you own no Apple products and do not buy anything from Amazon. And of course you do not buy products from companies that use Apple products or use the Amazon Web Service. I was not aware that you had decided to live off the land. I wish you the best.

Response moderated
ragingloli's avatar

As hypocritical as it was for the colonies to ally with the Soviet Union against Nazi Germany.

Pandora's avatar

Yes, if what is said about Nike is true. Find it hard to believe because China has more than enough people they can exploit. But I believe the Chinese may use cheap labor from nations that have very low economies. They don’t have to ship them to China. Like the way they use slave labor in South America to sell Walmart stuff.
Now another way to look at this is, does it mean that their point isn’t valid if it is true.
No. They live here and so they would want fairness for all Americans but especially for people like themselves who are targetted, so that wouldn’t be hypocritical. I want fair wages for all Americans but I do not always buy All American Products, like coffee or certain fruits. I want higher taxes for the rich but I don’t think the poor should have to pay more.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Being a slave is exactly about being in the wrong place at the wrong time. And that doesn’t only apply to slaves. It is currently true of the Uighurs in their homeland, any Native American loose in this country and of course those whose kids we throw in cages. The idea that it’s hypocritical for a black man to protest oppression elsewhere simply because he himself is lavished with luxury at the hands of those oppressors is an interesting position. You wanna whine about hypocrisy? How about liberty and justice for all?

filmfann's avatar

These are a lot of the same people who said they support peaceful protest last month.
The only time the want to see someone on a knee is when it’s on a minoriy’s neck.

seawulf575's avatar

@ragingloli I’m glad you chimed in. Because shouldn’t we castigate Germany for being the aggressors in not one but two world wars? I mean, Germany is synonymous with Hitler! Shouldn’t you guys change the name of your country? After all, Germany brings up so many bad memories….

seawulf575's avatar

@Pandora I know the report came from Australia and I can’t come up with a logical reason for them to make this up. I could be wrong…there could be some underlying hatred somewhere in their past, but there it is for what it is.
As for wanting equal treatment for all Americans, I absolutely agree. However, we left that boat at the dock long ago. We have started focusing on things that happened 150 years ago. We seem to be obsessed with slavery in our past. But maybe I’m weird, but if I feel slavery here was wrong 150 years ago, I certainly don’t think it got better as the years went by. If you are upset because you think one group is being unfairly targeted for abuse, how can you make money from that exact abuse?

seawulf575's avatar

@filmfann How many people have you actually met or talked to that felt George Floyd’s death was justified? I know of no one. I personally have stated that the cops should be thrown under the jail. It was murder plain and simple and they used their authority as cops to commit it. But you make the statement like you see it all the time that people want to see this sort of thing. Please, enlighten us. How many times have you actually encountered this in your life?

ragingloli's avatar

We did rename ourselves.
Pop quiz for you.
What did we rename ourselves from, and to?

seawulf575's avatar

Pop answer: It doesn’t matter. I mean, we are trying to hold the USA accountable for every bad thing that happened in the past without any acknowledgement to the good or the changes over time, so join the party! Your country should change its name as being the aggressor that resulted in millions of deaths for the world. It offends people and brings on negative memories so you should have to change it.

ragingloli's avatar

We did rename ourselves.
Pop quiz for you.
What did we rename ourselves from, and to?

YARNLADY's avatar

Deutschland?

doyendroll's avatar

“More than a million Uyghurs and members of other Turkic Muslim minorities have disappeared into a vast network of re-education camps in recent years”.

Pandora's avatar

@seawulf575 Have you ever heard of the term, clean your own house first? You can’t protest what is happening at your neighbor’s home either and not be upset about what is happening under your own roof first because it directly affects those near and dear to you. Do you track down every single item you buy to find out if it was made at slave wages or slavery in other nations? Anyone who says they do is either lying or they work for such an agency or activist group. But we don’t need to devote a lifetime to see what we can plainly see with our own eyes happening right here. It isn’t about slavery in the sense that you think. Its about being treated still as a slave with no real and valid rights because of the color of your skin. We need to get our crap together before we can even dare to promote human rights in other nations. What good would it do to boycott everything from poor nations that are enslaved, when we still don’t have our crap together here. That is hypocritical. We tout human rights and we flagrantly stomp all over cititizens rights that the constitution promises. Cops acting as prosecutors, and judges and executioners with impunity. Children ripped away from parents and thrown into jail cells with no set time for their release and no outsiders allowed to oversee what happens in those cells.

By the way. We could stop buying stuff from all these nations who have these abuses but they are in that way because of poverty and lack of jobs. So lets say US manages to block everything coming from all those countries involved. Two things. The nation would have nothing to gain by putting more people on the the streets . They would just probably sell their products to someone else who will sell it to us at twice the price. Also don’t forget that they are often American Businesses here have financial stake. Now if we taxed those businesses higher than that would be better than trying to make everyday citizens google every item they purchased. We have to make it not profitable for those business but it won’t happen. They bought our politicians long ago.

seawulf575's avatar

@Pandora I’ve done some research on the matter of the cops using deadly force. This was an interesting breakdown of how that works. In the end, when you break it down, the number of times the cops act as “prosecutors, and judges and executioners with impunity” comes down to .000088% of the time that they interact with the public. And not even all of those are things like George Floyd. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not supporting the cops in the George Floyd case, I think they should be punished as murderers to the maximum extent the law allows. But the narrative that this sort of thing goes on all the time is just false. It isn’t as rampant as people want to make it sound.
As for the discussion of “poor nations” using slave labor…the nation was China. They are far from a “poor nation”. They are the second largest economy in the world. So all that discussion over the “poor country” is just crap. Besides, even in a 3rd world nation, if they are using slave labor to make products and you bring pressure on them to make them stop, that means that actual citizens would then get those jobs and start making money. How is that a bad thing?
But in the end, this discussion goes beyond our citizenry boycotting products made by slave labor. It goes into the same people acting upset by inequality making millions on the backs of those slaves while they preach to us about how horrible it is.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Such hyperbole is entirely unwarranted. No one here claims this country the model for evil. Of course there are worse places, and some of them are more hypocritical in fact than ourselves. You will however, not find one with our comparable wealth which fails so miserably at living up to its professed ideas. China is a POOR nation. Moreover, it is a paranoid and corrupt nation to an extent far beyond ourselves. They just aren’t as desperately poor as they were 20 years ago. No one denies that there are decent white people in the United States and no one ignores the progress we have made toward equity and justice. But just as surely as this is true, that progress is not the result of magnanimity or generosity on the part of those decent white folks. It came as the result of Struggle and PROTEST. It ALWAYS does, and that is in fact the ONLY way it ever has. Redneck dummies would like to assume the society does its minorities a favor through equitable treatment, when in fact the protests are REALLY about living up to what you CLAIM to be the truth. Before you accuse those protesting the rejection of those ideals as hypocrites, you might in fact consider that they are only hypocrites if those ideals are indeed enforced. And when they are not, it isn’t the protesters that are the hypocrites.

Pandora's avatar

I wasn’t saying China it self is a poor country, necessariy. The nation has money the people do not. It is huge. They have poor people. But like everywhere else they have their rich.. I was stating that the countries that have people most exploited are from poor nations. Like when Walmart was getting a lot of stuff from South America where people were being treated horribly. Not to say that China doesn’t exploit their own people. It’s why I don’t believe they have to import people to exploit. They have a huge population. It would be like Inda bringing in other people to exploit.

As for cops acting like judge jury and executioner and the numbers, I don’t believe we see everything especially since other cops and DA help to sweep everything under the rug. Even after they are done being cops things are swept under the rug. Just look at what happened to that man in Georgia. He was killed by a former police investigator son, but he knew all the right people and the case wasn’t going anywhere until it got national press and that video was released. These are only the cases we do get to see. It’s like roaches. You see one it may not necessarily mean there are millions, but they breed if left unchecked and in no time you have millions. We are also not talking about the ones who end up dead. There are plenty of people who have other harm and abuses happening to them but it becomes their word against the cop. Guess who wins. I’m sure there are false allegations but things have become worse between the public and cops and the divide larger.
But my main point was to answer your question. It really doesn’t matter if its hypocritical that they take money from Nike. I think our flag supposing to represent high moral values and virtues is hypocritical. All men created equal is a lie and our first Amendment is constantly under attack. And if ball players or anyone should be punished for wanting to express their dismay at the idea that under this flag they and other like them are not considered equal then they proved there point even more so when Trump and “OWNER”, punish Kap for using his right as an American citizen to express his dismay. (AKA stomp on his first amendment right to silence him).

MrGrimm888's avatar

First off. I think most people, who would like to take a stand against wrongdoings, are hypocritical. Whether it is because of ignorance, or complacency. Almost every country, and/or product, could be picked apart, and something unethical, will arise.

Secondly. I feel it relevant to point out that the OP, suggests that many forms of protest, are to spark controversy.
The very nature, of this thread, seems to be aiming at just that. Starting controversy.

I believe that a good thread, should have controversial elements. It makes for a better debate. However. If the thread, itself, is rooted in hypocrisy, and seeking to be controversial, isn’t that hypocritical?...

In other words. The OP, seems to be attacking a hypocrisy, with his own hypocrisy.

The question, as phrased, is flame bait. The OP, expected certain responses. And, likely, had predetermined reactions to those options…

As far as Nike’s involvement, I would put that in the category of the negative effects of capitalism… Not, so directly tied, to race relations in the US.

In any case. Both the NFL players, and the OP, have used the platforms they have available, to try and affect change….Or, at least. Bring attention to things, they feel are important issues.

Humanity, is full of duality.
The US has indeed, made some great contributions to the world. Whilst also, doing many things wrong.
Whilst some, may only see some NFL players, as opposition to America, they must also look at their contributions. Many players, donate time/money, to their communities. Helping the US, become a better place.

The players, don’t just rake in money, and protest, anymore than the US just rapes the world, and reaps benefits…

The short answer to this question is, we are ALL hypocrites, in one way, or the other. The difference between us is, what hill do you choose to die on?

As long as people care enough to make that choice, collectively, the world will be a better place.

seawulf575's avatar

@Pandora They aren’t bringing in people to exploit. They are rounding up Uyghur Muslims from within their own boundaries and turning them into slaves. They are Chinese.
As for the cops “sweeping things under the rug”, those deaths would have fallen under the other category…justified shootings. That is where the person that is shot is armed and is acting aggressively, either threatening to hurt someone else or has actually done it. Those deaths are also listed in the link I gave. It really isn’t a huge number either….something like 0.001% of all contacts police have with the public. About 950 “justified” shootings in a year in this country. But of that 950, let’s think for a minute; what are we expecting the cops to do? If someone is shooting at them are they supposed to walk away? If someone is trying to stab them are they supposed to let it happen before they fight back with deadly force? So before we try throwing them under the bus, let’s open up the other side of that discussion: the why. Why did they use deadly force? And each case is different and each case get reviewed. The use of body cams and dash cams have increased the scrutiny they are under. And if they turn off their body cams, it is a violation of rules and is held against them in the determinations. The case in GA was NOT a police officer…it was a former police officer. Not the same thing. That’s called a civilian. I’d call them nutjobs. But they are not using the power of their office to set the stage for the murder.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 by that view, any question that ever asked for an opinion could be flame bait. It would certainly limit the number of questions on Fluther!

Dutchess_lll's avatar

Of course not.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@seawulf575 . I attempted to point out that opinion.
I suppose, I was trying to put you, into the mindset of the players. It was not meant, as an insult.

I assume that you stand, for the anthem. You must have a reason for that, as do the kneeling players…
Either way, it is making a statement.
I suspect that there will come a day, when those who knelt, would stand proudly again. I also suspect that there may be circumstances, which would lead you to kneel…

Otherwise, this is truly a unquestionable dictatorship.

stanleybmanly's avatar

But the question itself is ambiguous in its wording. It reads as though Nike is accused of hypocrisy for utilizing slave labor while lavishing money on athletes. Or is it the athletes who are the supposed villains for accepting the corporate money derived from slave labor? Whether either or both explanations hold true, the logical accusation of hypocrisy should be leveled where it belongs. Both the corporation and the players are FOLLOWING THE RULES. THE HYPOCRISY IS DESIGNED INTO THE SYSTEM ITSELF. And THAT is sure as hell worthy of all the protest which can be leveled against it.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly the question: “Is the kneeling by pro athletes hypocritical?” That is about as straightforward and unambiguous as you can get.
As for the corporation and the players following the rules, let me point out that before 1865 the rules were that slavery was acceptable in the USA. So the land owners and the corporations were just following the rules. Why bother changing anything then, eh? In this case, the protest in a country that defends the freedoms needed to make those protests and to not live in bondage is being done by people that are reaping millions from companies that are using slave labor to make their products. Here’s a thought…if they want to be taken seriously, why don’t they refuse to be sponsored by Nike until they stop using slave labor? Have them swap to Android phones rather than iPhones until Apple refuses to use slave labor? How about stop buying BMWs until that company stops using slaves to make their product? I mean…they are all millionaires anyway, right? So its not like they need the money from these corporations. And if they were truly dedicated to not liking oppression, then they need to stop supporting it around the world.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Again, if the system is designed to facilitate slavery, is it hypocritical for me to wear cotton clothing? You should be GRATEFUL that the players take a knee as opposed to taking up arms. They are availing themselves of the legal and peaceful means of addressing injustice, which is EXACTLY the route you and I should prefer. All of us must play the hands we are dealt. Progress toward social justice is achieved by those who make waves.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly Let’s try putting it into apples to apples. If the system in CHINA is designed to facilitate slavery and Nike utilizes that slavery to make their products, should you accept money for them to be their spokesman/advertiser when you are busy protesting about oppression? THAT is the hypocrisy here. And to try downplaying “the system” that facilitates slavery, you are accepting it. So to complain about inequities here is bogus. You have already shown it isn’t inequalities or oppression or even slavery you are interested in…it is merely an effort to gain notoriety.

si3tech's avatar

IMHO it is hypocritical. They live in a free country and paid millions of dollars per year to play a game! Where else in this world would a country sanction such anti home county display?

mazingerz88's avatar

Colin kneeling was because basically, America is evil? That’s false and prejudiced thinking. Racism in America is evil not America.

Maybe if prejudiced Americans could see things beyond their racism, sincerely address grievances of fellow Americans instead of worshipping the American flag in the name of “patriotism”....maybe then all Americans could move forward and deal with the the economic realities that lead to companies like Nike having to go to China for slave labor. How about that?

Instead of using arguments just to get a chance to criticize Nike for its support of what is a just cause and a good cause here in the States. A cheap shot really.

seawulf575's avatar

@mazingerz88 Maybe if some Americans could see anything except racism, the country could heal too. Isn’t it amazing when you have to face your own shortcomings? And how does creating racism in this country have anything at all to do with Chinese slavery? Let’s play your your bizarre reality for a moment. Let’s say all racism in the US ended tomorrow. You really believe that Nike would suddenly say “hey! we should pay US workers beaucoups bucks to make the shoes!”? No! they would continue to use slave labor so they could maximize their profits. And these charlatan crusaders would still be getting their cut of slave money.

AlaskaTundrea's avatar

seawulf575 obviously meant to stir up controversy with this question but I’ve enjoyed reading the various responses. I applaud the level headed, intelligent reaction and thoughtful responses to what appears to be to me nothing more than a flame bait question.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

@si3tech….do you know why they are kneeling? They are not protesting the whole country. they’re kneeling to bring attention to one, fucked up facet of our country. They have the right to do that.

mazingerz88's avatar

@seawulf575 You’re not only prejudiced with local racial issues but cynical about US corporations going to China for slave labor. Is your imagination as a lone voter (assuming you’re a voting American citizen ) that limited?

If you’re really that passionate about Chinese slaves maybe begin by researching US economic policies that would help discourage if not stop it altogether. Join institutions profit or non-profit that maybe are already on to it, lobbying and supporting politicians who are open to such policies.

That’s how you can make a difference. But that’s not the case isn’t it? It’s all just about anything to paint the other side as hypocritical because you just simply don’t like whatever they’re doing and how they’re doing it to achieve their social, political and moral goals.

si3tech's avatar

@Dutchess_lll It must be obvious that the kneelers are the “one fucked-up facet of our country!”

stanleybmanly's avatar

You would prefer shooters?

ragingloli's avatar

People murdering British soldiers over having to pay taxes: fight for freedom.
People of colour kneeling to protest their people getting murdered by the state: scum of the earth.

seawulf575's avatar

@mazingerz88 But you already gave us the answer. We have to stop racism in this country and then all the corporations will stop using slave labor around the world. Isn’t that what you told us? why would I have to work with any group to fight slavery? It’ll magically stop if we stop racism in this country.
But here’s another thought for you: maybe by asking questions like this I AM helping to fight slavery across the globe. After all, it shows that most of the liberal jellies on these pages don’t even want to think about it or see how they actually support it and actively support those that profit from it. Maybe, just maybe, by shining a light on this I can get at least one person to open their mind a little.

seawulf575's avatar

@ragingloli as usual, you stop just short of being correct. Typical for liberals though. Try this for your last sentence of your previous post:

People of colour kneeling to protest their people getting murdered by the state while taking big bucks from people that use slave labor and thereby supporting human rights atrocities around the world: scum of the earth.

LostInParadise's avatar

Kaepernick is not the only one who is kneeling. The NFL now allows players to kneel during the national anthem, and those doing it include some white players. The issue goes way beyond Nike and Kaerpinick.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

No @si3tech. The issue is police brutality against black people. Did you honestly think they’re doing it for no reason?

ragingloli's avatar

@seawulf575
Spare me your nonsense.
You lot have been condemning the kneelers from the beginning, long before Nike was even an issue.

Also, your orange god thought those concentration camps were exactly the right thing to do.
So you can shove it.

seawulf575's avatar

@LostInParadise Kaepernick is not the only one kneeling. That is why I worded the question to include all pro athletes. It goes way beyond the NFL and Kaepernick with Nike and goes way beyond Nike. But Nike is a big one that pays big $$ for endorsements and also uses slave labor. Kaepernick started all this silliness about protesting the USA because of oppression of blacks, all while he rakes in big $$ from Nike. LeBron James has been very vocal about supporting these protests and he makes $10M per year from Nike. But as I said, it goes way beyond specific people. All NBA teams and all NFL teams are sponsored by Nike through purchasing of uniforms at a minimum. MLB is getting in on the deals as well.

seawulf575's avatar

@ragingloli That’s a good one. You are citing an article that is citing John Bolton’s book which has already been shown to be rife with inaccuracies and lies. But this question isn’t about whether Trump thinks it’s hypocritical…it’s whether the jellies think it is hypocritical. But your answer shows you are actually in favor of the slavery in China. You are trying very hard to defend it…even trying to bring President Trump’s supposed views of the situation into your arguments.
As for my views of the kneeling, I will say I have always thought it was a stunt by Kaepernick to try resurrecting a failed career. But if you look, nowhere do I say they shouldn’t be allowed to protest. I am just calling out their hypocrisy for doing so. My personal views are that when you make millions of dollars a year to play a game and you feel strongly about a social issue, there are many, many more effective ways to combat the wrong you see. Kneeling is the cheap coward’s way of doing it.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Cap, was only 1–2 seasons, from playing in the Super Bowl. Hardly a “failed career.” More like, he was using his new found fame, as a platform for protesting, what he perceived as social injustice.
Hundreds of thousands of people (many Caucasian,) have been part of the recent protests.
Most, are not seeking fame, or controversy. They are simply taking a stance. In fact, one could easily opine, that these ordinary people, are risking their own lives by gathering in spite of the risk of the CV-19 virus…

They got no help, from Nike, and had nothing to gain, except for the hope of battling social injustices.

This logic, of people gaining money, or popularity, holds little weight. Many have been injured, or imprisoned, in hopes of change.

In contrast, Trump, and his supporters, have shown little support for their agendas.
Trump’s secret police actions, have led to government officials, to plead for his help to be removed from their cities.

Slavery used for making things, has taken a back seat to stopping Trump’s gestapo tactics. As usual, his divisive, inflammatory, rhetoric, and actions, have led to an exacerbation, of an already turbulent situation…
To add to the problems, his lies, lack of leadership, and overall behavior, has also exacerbated the spread of the CV-19 virus…

Frankly, I am surprised that ANYONE, stands for the anthem. Trump, and his supporters, have been an absolute DISGRACE.

Over 150,000 American people are dead, there is major civil unrest, the economy is in chaos, and people are losing everything. What exactly, are Americans supposed to be respecting the anthem for?...

IMO. A “true” patriot, would be clamoring, for MANY changes…

Darth_Algar's avatar

Plenty of corporations use slave labor. Many right here in the US. Until you can honestly say you utilize no products from any of these multitude of companies then you have no fucking room whatsoever to talk.

But I don’t believe you honestly have any genuine concern for Chinese Uyghurs at all. This is just more flame-bait “ah! gotcha!” bullshit.

LostInParadise's avatar

@seawulf575 , Most of the players who kneel do not have contracts with Nike. Nike plays a small part in all of this.

In particular, Nike has no influence on the owners of professional sports teams. Their change in tune regarding kneeling had nothing to do with any contracts with Nike.

There is a change in attitude nationwide. I am sure you are aware of this. NASCAR now bans confederate flags. Many states and towns have removed confederate statues. New York City has a large Black Lives Matter logo in front of Trump’s hotel. The times they are a’changing. Nike has cashed in on this. Why blame them for doing something right, even if they do a lot that is wrong?

mazingerz88's avatar

@seawulf575 So part of your intention was to get people to open their minds about important things…by way of for example separating kids from their parents…attacking the media all fake news except orange flavored ones…discrediting the FBI…CIA….stealing a Supreme Court seat…doing Putin’s bid via treasonous acts…weakening the State Dept…..dismantling environmental protections….138 million dollar golf outings and counting….just to name a few?

Yeah, that would OPEN all our minds no doubt. And more.

seawulf575's avatar

@Darth_Algar you are trying the exact same tactic that has already been tried. You are trying to turn this on me. Do you see me making public spectacles to protest against slavery or oppression? No. Do you see me running down the country for the actions of a few bad eggs that I’m trying to spread to be everyone? No. Do you see me taking millions of dollars from the company utilizing slave labor all while I’m screaming about inequality and oppression? When you see me doing that, then you can pull that argument out and slap me upside the head with it. Meanwhile, you are making excuses for the people that ARE doing all those things.

seawulf575's avatar

@LostInParadise So you are okay with Nike making a profit from slaves? Okay, then tell me how times really are changing? Aren’t you really saying you buy into the political bullshit but really don’t care if others are enslaved?

seawulf575's avatar

@mazingerz88 If you care to set the Way-Back machine to go look, you will find what all of my answers to all of those topics REALLY have been. They are always steeped in reality and not blind, hating, rhetoric. Just as this topic is. What amazes me is that you are okay with overblown regulations that kill our economy and really accomplish nothing. That you are okay with a media that lies to you. That you think that the FBI and a political party conspired to spy on opposition candidates and then to create lies to try unseating that candidate when he wins. Let me ask you for a moment…what would your thoughts be if it came out that Trump used the FBI to create lies and to spy on his political opponents? You’d be okay with that? Because that is what you are saying…that you think it is wrong to pursue that sort of abuse of power and corruption. Pretty much every thing you have said shows how warped your reality really is.

mazingerz88's avatar

@seawulf575 You got your own reality with everything else as simply being hate. Cozy and comfy in the bubble, nice.

LostInParadise's avatar

@seawulf575 , You are missing the big picture. Nike is a bit player in what is going on. The NFL now permits kneeling. Lots of players have joined in. States and cities are tossing away Confederate statues. There have been massive protests against the killing of George Floyd and police brutality, even if they sometimes get out of hand. Do you not see this?

In the grand scheme of things, who cares what Nike is doing? They did not tell Kaepernick to kneel, but they greedily took advantage of the public sentiment that favored it. You want to protest Nike? Go ahead, but at least be aware of the larger change that they are exploiting.

stanleybmanly's avatar

I’m wondering how many excuses you will invent to beat this horse in front of us before you come to understand that YOU are achieving EXACTLY the goal of the players in bringing attention to their issue. Moreover, through inventing nonsense objections to the players’ behavior, critics such as yourself do little more than demonstrate that they just can’t follow the ball, thereby strengthening the players arguments. For example, your position of Kaepernick’s actions as cowardice, when any fool can see that he is in fact putting his career and all that money on the line, deflates your credibility irretrievably and renders the players heroic. You would do better to ignore the issue than to keep placing it before us. No matter how often you bring it up, bad mouthing the players is a hopeless proposition. It’s equivalent to condemning the fire department as somehow hypocritical and responsible for furthering the idea of global warming.

seawulf575's avatar

@LostInParadise I think you are missing the big picture. What you have is players, not only in the NFL, but in MLB and NBA, that are protesting oppression all while soaking up millions from a company that utilizes slave labor. It doesn’t get any simpler than that. Apparently you don’t want to look at slavery elsewhere, only what happened in the USA 150 years ago, or possibly black people that were killed by cops at an extraordinarily low rate. You are looking at this question from the aspect of Nike being the point. It isn’t. They are part of the cause, but it is the pro athletes (as the question clearly states) that are the focus. So either you aren’t catching on to that or you are purposely trying to avoid addressing it. Either way, you seem okay with slave labor.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly So by pointing out hypocrisy that supports slave labor, I’m achieving EXACTLY the goal of the players in bringing attention to their issue? So tell me…what EXACTLY is their goal? Or even what is their issue?

stanleybmanly's avatar

Their goal at minimum is to get you to reflect on injustice. This they rudely accomplish by deflecting you from the inane gladiatorial exhibitions designed to distract you from using your head to even consider—let alone weigh such issues. And as usual, the people are incensed. True to form, the dolts among them complain (justifiably) “I’m not here to think”

LostInParadise's avatar

@seawulf575 , One last time. The vast majority of kneeling athletes are not getting money from Nike, and so are not acting hypocritically. Nike really is a bit player in all of this. Kaepernick and LeBron James are not necessary. At this stage, they are also bit players, especially Kaerpernick, who likely will never again play professional football. Are they hypocrites? Who cares?

Do you not see a large social reaction to racism, by whites as well as blacks? Republicans have joined Democrats in Congress in a veto-proof bipartisan vote to add a provision to the defense spending bill to rename all Confederate-named military installations. Does that have your approval? It does not have Trump’s.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@seawulf575

Are you ok with companies like McDonald’s, Walmart, J.C. Penny, Aramark, etc profiting off slave labor? Slave labor here within the US even.

hmmmmmm's avatar

@seawulf575‘s reliance on hypocrisy as the end-all leaves him consistently providing arguments against capitalism. But rather than understand what he’s doing, he continues to leave all principles out of any argument he’s making.

His reliance on hypocrisy – while avoiding principles altogether – means that he could be talking about cops killing black people, slave labor, or the inconsistencies of liking vanilla-based ice creams while loathing plain vanilla ice cream. He believes he’s engaging in a logic exercise. There is no foundation upon which he discusses topics of ethics and politics. It’s a world view where nothing is right or wrong in principle. It’s only consistent or inconsistent.

The fact that his “logic” exercises are lousy with problems just add to the absurdity.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly So you really can’t articulate WHAT the athletes really are protesting, right? “Their goal at minimum is to get you to reflect on injustice” doesn’t sound like a full articulation to me. But let’s go with that. I am reflecting on injustice. But it doesn’t mean I didn’t reflect on it before the kneeling started. But my current reflections show me that these idiots don’t care one whit about injustice when they are making bucks off of those committing the injustice. In fact I see their protests to be extremely hypocritical at a minimum.

seawulf575's avatar

@Darth_Algar Ok, I’ll bite. Give me one example where slaves are used in the US. I’ll wait. I’m not talking about things like Nike using slaves in China, I’m talking about actual slaves being used here in the US which is what you just said. I’ll wait.

seawulf575's avatar

@hmmmmmm Funny that you want to attack me and try to ridicule my “hypocrisy” views, but really don’t want to address the issue I’m raising, do you? I guess I could turn it around though. The players’ reliance on racism as the end-all leaves them consistently providing arguments against the USA. But rather than understanding what they’re doing, they continue to leave all principles out of any statement they are trying to make.
But let me get this straight, so I have it on the record…you are okay with protesting oppression while you are getting paid by people that are using slaves? I just want to make sure we all get a clear understanding.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Is this thread not proof enough, that your logic is flawed?
Can the responses not help you get “a clear understanding?”

None of the jellies, on this thread, are getting financial compensation.

Is it so inconceivable, that others, around the world, are upset by injustices? The only compensation, it seems, that people want, is justice…

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I think you have struck upon the whole gist of the problem. It isn’t about the jellies on these pages. It isn’t about me, as most of the jellies on these pages have tried to make it. It is, as is clearly stated in the question, about the pro athletes. I’ve taken the conversation back to that point again and again. What seems really odd to me is that, despite the facts, none of you are either willing or able to actually say anything that might not shine a glowing light on these folks. So to me, that says you are all okay with slavery and okay with people protesting oppression while taking millions from companies that use slaves to make their products. The question is really that simple. Either you feel their actions are hypocritical and you think it is all wrong, or you feel their actions are great and you accept the slavery and the oppression protesters benefiting from slave labor.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Only you could devise the players’ peaceful protest as an endorsement of slave labor. The very idea is preposterous on its face, and the muddy logic behind the mental gymnastics required to arrive at such a conclusion are embarrassingly unworthy of honest consideration. As with your cowardice accusation, it’s all nonsense. And this has nothing to do with lberal / conservative dueling. This is about labeling mud pies as oatmeal cookies.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Feel free to draw, your own conclusions Wulf. I simply disagree.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly The players’ protest is not an endorsement of slave labor. Their acceptance of sponsorship money from the companies that benefit greatly from slave labor IS am endorsement of slave labor. And for them to do both…protest against oppression and benefit from it…seems awfully hypocritical.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

They are protesting thw treatment of black people by police.

seawulf575's avatar

@Dutchess_lll Isn’t that a form of oppression? But it is more than that. they are protesting a country that would allow oppression of blacks. They aren’t protesting the police themselves.

seawulf575's avatar

@Darth_Algar Each and every company you identified does, indeed, use prisoners as workers. But they are all volunteers (not slaves) and are paid (not slaves). But it’s interesting you bring it up. There are or at least have been protests against these companies for this practice. So why do we praise pro athletes for protesting this sort of thing when they are so richly compensated by other companies that DO use actual slave labor? Why aren’t we protesting THOSE companies and THOSE spokesmen/advertisers for those companies?

Dutchess_lll's avatar

Of course the treatment many blacks experience at the hands of cops is oppression. Why is that even a question @seawulf575? And what does it have to do with the peaceful protests against it?

LostInParadise's avatar

@seawulf575 , Those are good questions that you raise. Why is there so little protest against the labor practices of companies like BMW and Apple? Do you think that our capitalist society tends to ignore such actions done in the name of profit?

seawulf575's avatar

@Dutchess_lll There is absolutely nothing wrong with their peaceful protests against oppression. Except that, there are some players protesting that benefit handsomely from at least one company that oppresses others and uses slave labor. Hence the initial question: Are the pro athletes doing the kneeling protests hypocritical since they benefit from slave labor?

seawulf575's avatar

@LostInParadise No, I think our society doesn’t give two hoots about slavery. They don’t give a thimbleful of concern that slavery goes on every day in this world. And there are some that don’t want to talk about how they make tons of money from that slave labor. But they care greatly about creating a political shitstorm at the drop of a hat if they can sow dissension in our country.

MrGrimm888's avatar

And how exactly, does sowing dissent, benefit the country?

stanleybmanly's avatar

And again the hyperbolic stretch of protest as hypocritical merely because the protesters are handsomely compensated by slave labor is tantamount to me labeling you a hypocrite for wearing shoes while deriding slave labor. Or are you in favor of slave labor? It is not hypocritical to protest injustice, even though you profit from it. The protesters clearly put that profit at risk through protest, which is clearly preferable to shutting up and ignoring the issue. Yours is the convoluted and clearly erroneous argument of which you accuse the liberals you so despise. If I enjoy a good steak, I am forbidden to demonstrate against the torturing of animals. It’s bullshit and you know it.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly By your logic, why did we fight a Civil War? I mean, after all, slavery might have been wrong, but gee, the landowners in the south were merely making profit off of it. That doesn’t make them bad people. And their views are okay since it really has no bearing on anything, right?

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I’ve wondered that myself many times recently. However, it seems that sowing dissent is not only tolerated, but encouraged, mainly by the left. And it seems to be tearing our nation apart which seems to be the whole purpose. I never said that sowing dissent benfitted our country.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Again you are conflating the slave OWNERS with those wearing cotton clothing while protesting SLAVERY. It’s straight up openly defective logic, and misses the point that the Civil War was not fought to punish slave holders. The war was fought to eliminate the then legal institution of slavery. The landowners were allowed to profit from an EVIL yet legal institution. The country was DESIGNED as such, as is the shoe industry TODAY. How will it change without protest? Or should we roll along without consideration of such things in blissful ignorance? Would the 2 of us be engaged in this conversation, had the players simply shut up and cashed the checks? Will you go barefoot or cobble your own shoes until labor inequities are eliminated from footwear?

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly Again, you are ignoring the SLAVE OWNERS in today’s world. So let’s call the pro-athletes the overseers. But in this case they are squawking about oppression of blacks while they profit from slavery. How will it change the company to protest them? Easy. It’s called boycotting. Funny that none of these fools that risk nothing to kneel won’t give up their millions in sponsorship to raise awareness for actual slavery, or to call for country-wide boycotts.

LostInParadise's avatar

Do you think the Constitution should be amended to forbid prisoner slave labor?

seawulf575's avatar

@LostInParadise I’d have to look closer into the whole story. For instance, it sounds like most of the prisoners in the article are from a violent maximum security prison. Now what the story doesn’t say is what the conditions of that prison are. What it does say is that if the prisoners decline to take this program, they are facing solitary confinement, loss of earned good time, and revocation of family visitation. The article calls it a punishment. But if the conditions in the normal maximum security prison would result in these same things (earned good time is probably gained from participating in the program, none or limited without), then it isn’t a punishment. The prisoners are being offered something that gives them benefits they might otherwise not see. This program actually looks like a way to rehabilitate prisoners as opposed to just locking them up. Isn’t that what we want out of our prisons? Rehabilitation?
If the real story is that the warden is somehow making a ton of money on the backs of these prisoners and they are not given a reasonable option of saying no, then it is already against the law and Constitution so it would not need an amendment to make it stop.

LostInParadise's avatar

The article I linked to explains that the Thirteenth Amendment specifically permits prisoners to be forced into labor as part of their punishment, and points to cases where there are no benefits to prisoners forced to perform slave labor. Does that seem right to you? Apparently privately run prisons for immigration detainees are particularly awful. Link Even if the labor is not forced, the low wages that are paid are inexcusable and should not be classified as rehabilitation. Why are you not out on the street protesting?

seawulf575's avatar

@LostInParadise In the case the article you linked discussed, it isn’t clear that these prisoners are being benefited or punished. As I said, in a maximum security prison, their freedoms may be severely limited. Getting a chance to get out and do something different may be an enticement to them. The 13th Amendment states: “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.” I think the reasoning here is pretty clear: don’t break the law and you free yourself from the potential for forced labor. But again…it doesn’t necessarily apply to the case involved since the prisoners are likely volunteers. As was mentioned they may find benefits from working that go beyond monetary.
As to why I don’t rush out to protest in the streets? I don’t see the problem nor do I believe every problem requires massive protests. And in reference to this question, the protest is not the issue. The hypocrisy is.

Soubresaut's avatar

No, @seawulf575, your issue is not with the hypocrisy.

The second sentence in your OP makes that much clear: “Basically, America is evil and until the oppression in our nation is gone, the protests need to go on.” This is an incredible misrepresentation of Kaepernick’s efforts (as well as the efforts of others who variously work to address various issues related to systemic racism in this country), whether by intention or out of ignorance.

You do not seem interested in actually trying to understand these issues. Based on your statements throughout this post, you do not believe the issues themselves have merit, and seem to be using this premise of “Well, the people speaking up about this are actually hypocrites,” as a reason why you do not need to reconsider your dismissal of the issues themselves.

You also seem to believe that the real motive behind people trying to speak up against injustices they see is not because they are trying to speak up against injustices they see, but rather that “they care greatly about creating a political shitstorm at the drop of a hat if they can sow dissension in our country.” You start with the presumption that their actions are hypocritical and dishonest, so of course it seems that way to you.

Please consider the notion that the lens through which you choose to view activism is shaping the way you view people engaged in activism.

“Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.” I think the reasoning here is pretty clear: don’t break the law and you free yourself from the potential for forced labor. >> But I believe that @LostInParadise‘s question was whether you agree with that reasoning, not whether it was stated clearly. Is government law an adequate justification for forced labor?

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