Social Question

Demosthenes's avatar

Is the United States being "invaded" by migrants?

Asked by Demosthenes (15037points) 3 months ago

Discuss.

Whether you have sympathy for migrants or not, whether they are illegal or not, can the country support the amount of people who want to live here? What can be done at the border other than pushing them into Mexico? You can’t say “don’t come”. That doesn’t work. People are going to come here if they think America represents a better life than where they came from. People are going to come here as long as they can send money home to their families in a poorer country. Is trying to stop the flood of migrants like trying to put out a wildfire with a watering can?

The only real way to stop them coming would be to improve the countries they’re coming from so they don’t want to leave. Easier said than done…is an understatement.

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104 Answers

Caravanfan's avatar

The United States should bring in more immigrants.

flutherother's avatar

All those who died working on the Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore last week were immigrants and pretty typical of those coming to the US..

Blackwater_Park's avatar

Well, we need most of them, and badly. Our immigration policy sucks. It both leaves the gates wide-open for anyone and also causes those making the journey here to face undue danger and hardships. When they do get here off the books, they’re easy pickings for those who wish to exploit them. Considering just how many people/groups hate Americans, leaving the border wide-open open is insanity. Other countries don’t do this. I can’t think of a worse set of policies.

SnipSnip's avatar

Indeed there is. It doesn’t take a genius to see it.

Kropotkin's avatar

Abolish all borders and the authoritarian states that control us.

If you believe in freedom, then you must also believe in freedom of movement. Borders restrict freedom of movement.

The Earth is a common heritage for all. No humans should be dictated by statist bureaucrats where or where they cannot live.

Ordinary people believing otherwise have internalised the values of a ruling class that they share nothing in common with.

Response moderated (Flame-Bait)
Kropotkin's avatar

@Blackwater_Park Dissident opinions that don’t conform to the ruling ideology are often dismissed as such. You’re in good company, as tiresome bores have been using the same rhetoric for centuries.

ragingloli's avatar

A few hundred years ago, it was.
Now, no.

Blackwater_Park's avatar

@Kropotkin Word salad. History has caused these borders, and mostly to keep people within them safe. Control over those people was mostly secondary. Humanity is not ready or mature enough for what you speak of.

ragingloli's avatar

Borders are lines demarcating stalled conquests, not barriers to “protect” the people within.

hat's avatar

The border is illegitimate and its existence is immoral.

The money, influence, violence, and guns coming from the US don’t respect any borders. People coming from countries destroyed by the US have more of a right to be here than people born here.

Blackwater_Park's avatar

And.. here comes the naive anarchist B.S.

Kropotkin's avatar

@Blackwater_Park Border control as we have is barely over a century old.

It’s ironic that you mention safety. When German Jews wanted to flee and seek refuge in other countries, many were denied because of border controls.

The British state pretty much condemned many to death this way, and it was ordinary people reading the press and internalising the paranoia and tribalism who cheered on to “keep them out”.

Oh, “naive”. Good one. So original.

Blackwater_Park's avatar

Ok, I’ll entertain your idea of a stateless, borderless world.

Now what? How does that work.

Demosthenes's avatar

I don’t know, I kinda think saying that we either get rid of the border or whatever the polar opposite is (kill every migrant at the border?) are the only alternatives to the current, shitty system is kind of a cop-out. Okay, let’s say that getting rid of the border and shooting all the migrants are out of the question. Then what? The migrants are there regardless of the border’s strength. Can the system we have now be made better? Or is there no reforming it? How can it be made better?

I appreciate the philosophical discussion of borders, but I am thinking a bit more concretely about what is happening now in the U.S. Even if you think the border should be abolished, that is not likely to happen. So then what can be done to improve the situation in the meantime?

mazingerz88's avatar

The word invasion is used by fools with political agendas or just simply…fools.

It will take sane, smart, reasonable, and compassionate American voters and law makers to humanely address US immigration problems…something that’s proving to be terribly elusive.

Blackwater_Park's avatar

@mazingerz88 Amen to that. There is no middle ground to be had, and IMO it’s all the middle-ground solutions that would have the best chances of working. My biggest beef with the current situation is that there is an industry of exploitation that has sprung up around our overly open border. A situation caused by it.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

What I would like to know how come we hear nothing of this border invasion on our Canadian news programs?
According to Marjorie T Greene 6 billion illegal immigrants have come across the southern border since Biden took office, that is insane since there is only 8 billion people on the entire planet, but a dyhard Republican said it so it must be true because they like their beloved leader would never lie,would they??

seawulf575's avatar

In short, yes. I have nothing against legal immigration. Apply for a visa, go through a vetting process and if you pass muster, welcome aboard. Most countries in the world have some sort of controls on immigration and punishments when those are violated. The US is in the distinct minority that allows anyone to enter into the country and lets them stay. Even Canada treats illegal entry as just that…illegal. The offender ends up getting deported. In some countries the penalties are even more severe going from heavy fines, banning, caning, jail time, etc. And in these countries, the illegal entries are held to a minimum. Yes, there are things that can be done to address the problems. Enforcing existing rules might be a good start.

When you have millions of people entering the country illegally, it is an invasion. Not an organized one, but it is being done against the laws for normal entry. The fact that we really don’t know exactly how many people have entered illegally should put to rest any argument about it. Additionally, there are threats to humanity entering this country along with all the people. Drugs, human trafficking, criminals both organized and not, and potentially terrorists are all coming into the country. Those are weapons to be used against our country and in many cases against humanity.

Hawaii_Jake's avatar

Let them all in.

While we’re at it, let’s start taking away guns from everyone.

MrGrimm888's avatar

It is a migration.
Anthropology is full of examples of people avoiding catastrophe, and seeking greener pastures.

LifeQuestioner's avatar

In terms of politics, the Constitution, etc., the term “invasion” applies only in case of war where another country is coming into your territory. So the simple answer to your question, is that no, we do not have an invasion of immigrants.

Do we need good border screening routines? Of course. We don’t want just anybody getting in without being properly vetted, but we also need to make sure that it’s not just based on their race or nationality. Also, a certain political party is very much touting the view that all the fentanyl is coming across the border from Mexico, and that is far from the truth. Most of it comes through shipping or from our own country.

We very much do need the labor that immigrants supply. I give you the example of Florida, and I don’t know what the current status is, but I know not too long back they were struggling with construction because they didn’t have enough workers. People were moving out of the state for various reasons, probably something to do with Nazis marching In the street and the cost of home insurance flying through the roof.

Finally, I always have to cite the example of the situation in The Day After Tomorrow. I know, I know, it’s a fictional movie. But we might need to keep that possible scenario in mind. If you’re not familiar, there was a drastic climate change and the better part of the upper United States was pretty much uninhabitable. People were flocking to the border and Mexico was keeping them from crossing. Finally, the US government had to agree to cancel all debts owed by Mexico before Mexico would let our people in. We like to think that we’re self-sufficient and in most things we are, but a day may come where we may need to rely on our neighbors for something, and then if we totally shut them out, or put up borders that end up killing people (like the devices underwater that caused people to drown), we may find ourselves on the other end of things one day and not receiving much sympathy from our neighbors.

gorillapaws's avatar

Fix the mess we made when the exported the MS-13 gang to Central America, and then funneled them weapons via our loose gun laws and also our political interference resulting in a total clusterfuck that is so horrible that people are willing to risk everything in a perilous journey for a chance at asylum in the USA. The natural order is not for people to risk everything to take their families on treacherous journeys of immigration. In fact, that’s only ever done when the situation is quite dire.

If you want to want to prevent immigration from the South, start cracking down on gun laws that supply the.cartels and gangs with the weapons and pursue policies that would help produce prosperity for Central American people. That’s much cheaper than building a stupid fucking wall (which wouldn’t work anyways).

Blackberry's avatar

The average American against immigration would be the first to take their family and move somewhere else if in the same position.

We’re suburbanites in a bubble that don’t understand real life changing danger.

seawulf575's avatar

@LifeQuestioner Day After Tomorrow?!? Yes, people in the northern part of North America were bailing out to go south. But the difference between that and what is going on now is that our government worked out a deal with some of the southern countries. The other countries were keeping us out until the agreement was reached. Right now we have people from most countries on the globe pouring across the southern border and no one has made any agreement for them to be here.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Just how are all these illegals crossing the border, is there an open lane ?
Are just walking across unopposed??
Swimming?
Is there no border patrol officers?
Are they clinging to the underside of vehicles?
Marjorie TGreene has said 6billion have come across since Biden took office that has to elbow to elbow of illegals down there.

seawulf575's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 They are basically just crossing the Rio Grande. If they get grabbed by Border Patrol, BP has been given the orders that they are not to be rejected. So they are grabbed up and “processed” which basically means asking them questions, taking their word for gospel, and then turning them loose with the “promise” they will come back for their hearing. It’s a joke, but no a very funny one.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Immigration is in need of massive reform. Sadly. Much of the government doesn’t really function well.
The congress is what is currently stopping a deal from going though.
The Republicans have some real in-house problems, and are so frenzied that they can’t even settle on a SOTH.
Are the Republicans represented by the small percentage of extremists in their party?
No.
Last I heard, Mike J. was potentially going to have to rely on a deal with some democrats, to keep from being ousted (for coming so close to actually doing his job.)
It’s possible Trump doesn’t win in November. I know this because they ALL haven’t sold out to Trump yet. The cowards are waiting to see if he gets elected, before painting themselves as Trump’s enemies.
Many Republicans, ex/current are opposed to Trump being POTUS again. Yet none will commit publicly that they would essentially vote for Biden, as that may be the only way to prevent Trump 2.0.

I fing it disturbing, and worrisome, that brown people having to prove their citizenship is a concept gaining ground in some states.
I personally don’t believe Trump has displayed a long term Immigration policy, which treats these people as people.

I know that our government sucks, but I believe that if our elected representatives did their jobs (communicated with each other) we could secure the border, AND treat these people (the MAJORITY of whom ARE NOT bad people) as the potential assets/future Americans that they are.

If people in DC, talk, make concessions, compromise, and understand that all these standstills/standoffs serve NOBODY.

Regardless of which undeserving old white men ends up “winning,” the people that are the gears that are designed to keep the engine running, will be the same assholes.
Watching our leaders bickering, infighting, and trying to get each other fired, leads me to be believe that things more important than Immigration will potentially fail.

Hoping for a new team, because you change coaches, isn’t a wise strategy.

I shouldn’t have to say, and we ALL know, that November will be a rough time.
If Trump loses, history tells us he will fight the democratic process.
He will attack everything again, and nothing including calling for violence is going to be off the table.

If Trump wins, history tells us that last time he was elected, he surrounded himself with the best people. Almost all of those people, aside from being let go because of their lack of loyalty, also don’t believe Trump should be running.
History tells us Trump will fill his cabinet with whichever shit for brains idiots, who would never question him.

If Biden wins.
Maybe. Maybe he could bring a similar deal from the last one before congress.
Biden has lost some wind in his sails. But. He has a history of at least trying to talk to the GOP.
Perhaps that is Biden’s biggest flaw actually. That he is too “nice.” He is not a confrontational man. At least now, I think.
He is just as tired of current politics as anyone.

I feel like the southern US border, has been a source of great, and terrible things my whole life.
I KNOW that both sides quietly profit from the chaos in the region.
Cartel firearms, and even guns in Haiti, have been traced back to the US. This should come as little surprise.

The US has a responsibility, as we were founded, to help ALL people who want/need to be here.
We are at least half responsible for the deterioration of the entire Latin American region.
We owe it to everyone who has ever died fighting under the American flag, to do this the “right” way. And we can.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Immigration reform has been an issue for decades. Both parties punt the football. There are actually two plans that needed to be looked at. The Dem plan and the Repub plan. The Dem plan, which Johnson refused to consider, didn’t really do anything about securing the border. The majority of that bill revolved around aid to Ukraine, Israel, etc. There was all sorts of stuff that didn’t even address immigration. What it did suggest as part of immigration reform was ways to streamline and legitimize people that just walk into our country. Not to stop them, just spend more money to be able to let them in faster. The Repub plan, which Schumer sat on, actually had teeth about stopping a majority of the illegal immigrants from entering the country.

The REAL problem with immigration laws is that they are basically ignored. They are written in wishy-washy ways that don’t actually force action. Look at the EOs Trump used and the EOs Biden uses. Both are legal as they are just ways of implementing laws. But one works to keep people from entering the country illegally and the other invites them in. The two sides do not agree on what our immigration ideals would look like so they can’t establish set laws that everyone would have to follow. I find it funny that we are pretty much an outlier in the world when it comes to border security.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Enforcement is the problem.
The current, as you say punted, issue is that the system apparently is overwhelmed.

I think the people in DC think it’s cheaper and more humane to open the gates, rather than fund the manpower needed to properly vet everyone.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I don’t think cost as anything to do with it. They could dig a moat or build a wall for far less than what it would cost to either shepherd them in or to keep them out with manpower.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Dig a moat isn’t there already a river in their way?
And why didn’t your hero get his wall done, even if he couldn’t get Mexico to pay for it?
I mean he did add just over 7 trillion to your countries debt so cost couldn’t have been it.

seawulf575's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 I always felt that a more secure version of the wall was a ditch 10–15 feet deep with all the dirt piled on the US side. String razor wire on that pile of dirt. That would make tunneling under the wall much harder as well as now having to drop a goodly distance and then climb out an even higher level. It seems like it would also be cheaper than a wall. But in the end, building a wall or digging a ditch is far cheaper than dealing with the flood of illegals entering the country. And logistically easier. The only reason for NOT wanting something like that is because you have a vested interest in not securing the border.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Oh stop with the wall bullshit!

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Wulfie like under minimum wage for farm workers that Americans won’t do?

seawulf575's avatar

@Dutchess_III Interesting. Did you know that Egypt has a wall to keep Palestinians out? Yep. And it works really well too! Anyone entering Egypt from that way has to go through a controlled port of entry. Funny how that works. Walls do work, if the politicians would stop trying to undermine the effort at securing the border.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Walls and borders are stupid.

RedDeerGuy1's avatar

I can see the president of Russia asking in 20 years.

“President Trump junior tear down this wall.”.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Trump asked if the Army could “just shoot them below the waist” !
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-asked-shooting-migrants-crossing-border-legs/story?id=66003927

What a piece of SHIT !

Dutchess_III's avatar

He means “Shoot them in the dick.”

MrGrimm888's avatar

Just a few weeks ago, a crowd of people overran the razor-wire, and other obstacles with aplomb.
There WERE armed soldiers there.

I was leaving a Metallica concert that had 30,000+ in attendance.
There was a series of cyclone fences and barbedwire that funneled everyone to only two exits. After about 20 minutes, everyone just grabbed the fences and pulled them out of the ground.
I remember that I couldn’t even feel any of it’s weight in my hands as I helped uproot the big fence. It eventually just floated over everyone’s heads. The second fence although bigger, went almost easier.

We were just sick of looking at the parking area, so we collectively just went right through the fences stopping us.

There was never a design that Trump’s people had proposed that wasn’t climbed easily by children.

I wondered if the conservatives watching that incident would have gotten it through their heads that walls/fences only sometimes work for livestock.

So Wulf. You want to dig moats to provide fresh water where there isn’t The Rio Grande?

How are we supposed to keep the moats full of water? Most of the region is rolling desert tundra…

It’s getting to the point that I think hearing “giant glue traps,” is next.

Dutchess_III's avatar

…he tweeted, initially misspelling “Moat” as “Moot.” It was later corrected
Ah trump.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

I know, I know machine gun nests, and landmines that will keep them out.

MrGrimm888's avatar

When I was a boy, Reagan helped remove the Berlin Wall.
So. 30 years later, America should rebuild it on our own border?

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 The Berlin Wall was put up to separate the Communists from the rest of Europe. It was part of the Cold War. And it worked amazingly well for many, many years. But it was put up mainly to keep people in, not out, though it worked for both. But the need for that wall ended. Reagan telling Gorbachev to “Tear down that wall!” was a way of signaling the end of the Cold War and a renewed sense of cooperation and commerce with the Soviet States.

The comparison of that with putting up a wall on our southern border is weak at best. To start with the wall on the border isn’t to keep people from immigrating here nor to keep people from leaving the country. It would be for the purpose of keeping anyone who wanted, to just walk right into our country. If you have open borders, you don’t have a country.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^There are of course differences.
But the similarities are in how we treat people. They are not “vermin,” nor are they from any singular nation. Treating it like a border with an enemy, is not the way to do things either.

“If you have open borders, you don’t have a country.”-
1.The borders are not “open.”
2. We’ve had a country since 1776.

Tearing down the Berlin wall was absolutely a metaphorical destruction of treating people like that.
Reagan’s statements at the time indicated that the American way of doing things was the “right” way, and tearing down the wall was destroying a monument of an era when people didn’t have human rights.

This ideology is exactly why people were upset, when Trump wanted a big military parade.
“We” are better than that. We do not roll tanks, and nuclear weapons platforms through our streets, to project power over our own citizens.
We project power with our carrier groups, and worldwide diplomacy.
Trump, who as we know is a draft dodger and disrespectful to the military, wanted to feel like Stalin, or Putin. That’s NOT American.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

The guard posts with guards instructed to shoot at anything that moved in “No man’s land” made that a “BIGLY” wall !

Your hero would have US troops just shoot anyone coming across the border, like US tourists and Canadians and maybe your relatives TOO !

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 If you say you have borders but then let anyone walk in, you don’t have borders. Oh I know they are supposed to report for a hearing at some dim point in the future, but you are still letting them in until then and not keeping track of them. If they don’t show, there is really nothing in place to go get them again. Effectively you aren’t keeping them out. And that is only with the ones you actually have contact with. You have no control of the border therefore you have no border.

You might want to ask yourself why we are one of very few countries that have this stance with our borders.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^We are in a time when “borders” as you seem to want them, aren’t feasible.

For a thought exercise, let’s say we built an insurmountable wall across the entirety of the southern and northern borders.
Hawaii and Alaska, will have to figure something else out.

We would still have a few thousand miles of east, and west coastline.
Coastlines with thousands of islands, mangroves, and marshes.
There is already a smuggling route around the California border, where there IS a wall.

The wall doesn’t extend far into the ocean. Another problem with walls.

For the type of security that you seem to desire, we would have to build a giant Skull Island (Kingkong) wall, around the entire country.
As crazy as THAT is, let’s keep with it.
So. We construct the wall, ambitiously, by 2050. Hopefully it’s really nice, and can stop the sea-level rise from global warming, not just people. It’ll need to be great, as it would be BY FAR the most expensive and ambitious construction project EVER undertaken.

I’m not sure if you follow “The Line.” A project in Saudi Arabia.
It was planned to be a skyscraper over 75 miles long.
Construction has been underway.
Saudi leaders were willing to shell out almost $2Trillion, for the first stages of the project.

Just today, I read that by 2030, it’s likely that the mega project will be 1.5 miles of completed building.
Why? Well. Because even for people who have always lived in desert, the realities of the challenges of such projects in inhospitable environments is very difficult/expensive.

The Line, is an ambitious project. It is hypothetically possible, but it’s more the work of a VERY wealthy few, who don’t understand reality.

This IS what happens, when you undertake massive construction projects in places like our southern border. The land is already a formidable obstacle.

I might could make the argument that a militarized wall be built in Alaska, as it is so close to Russia and China.
Those are two actually realistic threats.

I have seen how some people are behaving at the southern border. Some of the immigrants ARE not aiding their cause with their confrontations with our border security.

Should we just gun these people down?
A more cost effective solution might be swarms of killer drones patrolling the entirety of our country.

Again. If the congress had accepted Biden’s immigration deal, it sounds like that would have satiated most conservatives.

I live on the Southeast coast. We have countless “barrier islands.”
We have an inner coastal waterway. Lots of swamp, and marsh. I just can’t see how we keep people out.

If someone wants in, they’ll find a way.

I believe if we could provide the current efforts for border security more people/funding, that they could get these people processed faster and easier.
If the inflow of immigrants was properly handled, people would be far less likely to just sneak in.
I’ve heard people talk about putting ankle monitors on immigrants, until they are processed. This is NOT a great plan, and there is much to discuss about human rights etc, regarding such a thing.
However. Maybe something similar, but more humane, would be more plausible.

This is, in my opinion, another example of most people wanting the same result, but by conflicting means.
I don’t know of any American people, including legal immigrants/citizens, who want “open” (as in, just walk in) borders.

I know that people accidentally cross into America from Canada, and vice-versa. Because in most places there is absolutely no way of knowing where the exact border is.

I would like to say, that I believe some people view this as a cultural invasion, more than a military conflict. Although I could agree with that view, it doesn’t matter to me. These are NOT the people Trump makes them out to be.

I would think it relevant to consider that many countries have felt culturally invaded by the US. Obviously we have invaded some countries…

seawulf575's avatar

“We are in a time when “borders” as you seem to want them, aren’t feasible.” What nonsense. If that is true then why are we one of the few countries that have such open borders and such lax penalties for breaking the immigration laws? All those other countries have no problems with their borders and yes, they have borders.

And claiming that walls don’t work is equally disingenuous. Look at what TX did with just razor wire. They dropped illegal entries at Brownsville from being the highest in the state with hundreds per day down to next to nothing…a couple per month. The rest of your rant is just silliness. Yes, we have a huge border but no, we don’t need to put up walls around all of it. Not a whole lot of people are just walking across the Atlantic or Pacific oceans to enter wherever they can. And those that have tried coming across in boats from Cuba for instance, have found they are often intercepted long before they get to the coast or they hit rough seas and die. We do have a huge border with Canada, but there is really nothing above Canada. No other continents, no other countries. They are pretty much protected by oceans and arctic ice except along our border. There has been an uptick on illegal entries from Canada (huh, wonder why? Maybe we should ask @SQUEEKY2) but it isn’t enormous. So we are left with only the southern border being the huge problem. It is not unreasonable to put up a barrier to keep people from entering outside of legal entry points.

If the influx of immigrants were handled properly, all immigrants would enter the country through legal entry points, following our immigration laws. Seeking employment needs to be done with work visas. Seeking a better life is not grounds for asylum. And we are not under any obligation to accept everyone who shows up asking to come in.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Only nice people like Denmark . . .

Who probably have more education then the fright-wings !

MrGrimm888's avatar

Wulf. I literally just mentioned a post or so back, a recent incident where a group of immigrants ran right over razor wire.
Please stop reducing yourself by regurgitating the “open borders” lie.
Your statistics of TX reducing immigration, is completely based on stats from a VERY small portion of the border.

What you seem to be unable to grasp Wulf, is that people who walked hundreds/thousands of miles, used all of their resources, maybe even lost people on the way are not just going to stop at a wall in the desert, and say “well, I guess we’ll go back.”
They just cross in other areas.

According to Border Patrol, CIA, ATF, FBI, and Homeland Security, they still find tunnels from Mexico to the US, and obviously there are tunnels that aren’t aware of, and perhaps hundreds currently under construction.

You also seem to forget that although the majority of people coming here are NOT drug dealers, the tunnels/routes are usually.
The cartels likely actually have more resources than US agencies trying to stop them.

TW. Yes. I heard Trump the other day, saying that “it’s like we’re the world’s dumping ground” That is apparently the perception he has sold his sheep.
Oh. Most importantly, they think these people are flocking here, to be fraudulent voters. I assume because his followers, as usual, don’t seem to understand their own trigger issues. They only know what they are told to think.
VERY strange, to see what the republican party has evolved into.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Yep, they can still get over razor wire, or under it. But it has cut down the numbers that pour across when there is nothing. Stop trying to justify.

Response moderated (Unhelpful)
MrGrimm888's avatar

“Justify?”

If you think those people didn’t just walk another bit, and cross somewhere else, I can’t help you.

Since you consider these people “vermin,” I feel like I should ask “how do your walls do, as far as keeping vermin out?
If you live on Earth, you have to get your place sprayed regularly, and even then you see spiders, ants, and of course roaches.

Roaches, cannot go backwards.
These people you think of as Roaches, can’t go backwards either.
In all of human history, EVERY SINGLE MEASURE, has had a counter measure. It really doesn’t matter what obstacles you think of.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@Tropical_Willie. They don’t want to lose their culture.
White Christians currently can rely on older politicians like them, to slow it down. Because white Christians have a lot of power, right now.
Many immigrants are actually Christians, and Catholics, so they would only help the conservatives if they became citizens.
But. They don’t look like them, and they don’t practice Christianity like they do.
And you KNOW, they must hate their mixed race grandchildren.

The conservative agenda is that simple. They make all their political decisions based on their fear of change.
It’s already too late, to save the type of world they want. Honestly, it never even existed.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@MrGrimm888 maybe they should learn Russian or Iranian or Chinese ?

And move there . . . .

MrGrimm888's avatar

^I think Christian followers who really want to follow their religion should absolutely go somewhere else. If their beliefs are that important, and that’s fine with me.
But attempting to force the country to be a white Christian nation, is NOT okay.
I honestly think that they should move to Israel. I’ve said that for years. It’s just a coincidence that Israel is in this situation, because of their attempt at being a religious state. A problem, because the region is full of people who are also right-wing, theocratic, and prone to actions based on religious beliefs.
Over time, there would be so many Christian people in the ME, that Israel wouldn’t be so outnumbered. Obviously not because Christians are Jewish, but because they all big that region is “the Holy Land.”
That sounds like rock solid logic, they should move to their Holy land, and they can live with the Israeli people. Maybe scratch out a caliphate in Syria?
Whatever those religious people want to do, and leave me out of this.
I may leave, at some point. Who knows. If they are going to start burning atheists, I’m out of here.
That sentiment would have been ridiculous, before 2015.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 You continue to evade the truth and you continue to put opinions on me that are not mine. I cannot help that you are getting deranged about things like this. The truth is that Brownsville TX was THE hotspot for crossings. Then TX put up razor wire to seal up where the crossings were happening and it suddenly went to one of the places with the fewest crossings. Did the illegals move on to another spot? Sure. That is why we need to put up walls and/or razor wire along the entire border. If they want to get into the country so badly they can go to an approved entry point. What you always fail to address is why they don’t. If they are doing something noble, why are they trying to avoid the law?

And you need to answer one other thing. If wanting to enforce laws and borders is part of being a White Christian, what does that make you? An anarchist? A traitor? And when have I ever mentioned religious beliefs in any of these discussions? Show me once? You can’t because that is just one more example of you assigning some belief to me then trying to use that assignation as a reason to denigrate me somehow.

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Tropical_Willie's avatar

We need migrants . . . 25 % of construction workers and half of the agricultural workers in North Carolina are migrants. They pay around 300 million dollars a year in taxes to the state.

How much more food and housing will cost, I don’t know but there will be less available.

flutherother's avatar

We need them. Some might join Fluther.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Most people come here because they are desperate. As an atheist I feel compelled to help them, not murded them…or put them in cages for God’s sake.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Wulf. My opinions of you, are based on some pretty lengthy conversations. In this case, they are purely political. But. It is hard to avoid that intelligent, otherwise good people, like yourself, who also claim to be religious, don’t see how supporting this militarization, will work to our undoing. All of us.
With due respect, you do not (nor do you have to) seem to want these people to be coming here at all. If so, I apologize, because I can’t recall it.
You don’t HAVE to be an empathetic person.
You don’t HAVE to follow the beliefs you espouse.

But…..
Bruh. These people are mostly refugees.
I’m a refugee, in my own country. I’ve been displaced by circumstances beyond my control. I’m still reeling from it.

I’m still here at all, because people helped me. People who I had always helped, and relied on. I didn’t get millions of dollars, but I got a couch for a night, or some places for my dog and I.
It was shitty. I was pathetic. I had nothing but a pitbull on a rope, and the clothes on my back. And that is what floods, from hurricanes had left me.

I still live very close to where I used to. But I’m a few miles further inland. Up in the swamp.
It floods here too, but nothing like on the coastline.
I couldn’t just stay there, you know? I lost everything three Septembers in a row. I was/am a burden, on society.

I’m really sorry, it’s just what happened.

I don’t speak from a place of ignorance, when I speak about these southern immigrants.
I have known, worked with, and really worked with in law enforcement in their community. My nephew recently had a boy, with a Mexican girl. I believe that she is her family’s first generation of American born citizen.
“These people,” are extremely hard working, and community oriented. They ARE the closest thing you’ll ever get, to a Christian nation.
I’m not going to lie, they get in trouble with the law sometimes.
Which group doesn’t?

To me, their just people. If we LET them in, and welcome them, they WILL be an asset.
A lot of the people coming here are women, and children. Razor wire? Is that what Jesus would do?

Dutch brings up a great point, that I’m yet another atheist that wants to help them.
The process you seem to support, turns them into practically POWs.

Deliberately crossing the border, without US knowledge/consent is a serious crime.
I’m fairly certain that if we adapted to the situation (that we kinda caused,) we would see a more orderly, honest, thorough, and effective LEGAL process for getting these people vetted.

And call me an anarchist, but could we do it without hurting or drowning people?
I’m waiting to see Texas use giant human glue traps.
Those would be circumvented as well eventually. But you could really punish some if those people fleeing circumstance.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I totally agree with ya, but I do see wulfie’s point as well he doesn’t have a problem with migrants that enter your country legally ,he gets all bent with migrants that enter your country illegally.
Are they entering your country in the numbers the Rep/cons are claiming I highly doubt it for one thing they (Rep/cons) claim crime is through the roof in major cities due to these illegal migrants, when stats show crime is down in most of your major cities.
and also claiming they are bringing in Fentanyl in huge amounts again most of Fentanyl smuggling is being done by Americans,but it’s nice to use the immigrants as scape goats.
most of these migrants are just looking for work, and most of the work is at such a poor rate Americans wont do it,but I will side with wulfie they should do it legally either through immigration or work visas .

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie Ok, so they can enter legally. They can even get work visas to allow them to work during the building season. That doesn’t answer why you support illegal entry into the country so much. Try again.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Your answer is so far from reality it makes it hard to know where to start. Let’s start from the start. You say I’m religious and I am. But you fail to mention how that comes into play in my discussions on these topics.

You say I don’t understand how this militarization will work to our undoing. ??? What militarization? And what undoing? How is keeping people from entering the country going to lead to our undoing? You are absolutely correct again. But then, none of you can articulate why it will lead to our undoing. Why is it so important to have no borders? Why is it so important to have a flood of illegal immigration? How is that keeping us safe? When you can start articulating answers to these things, we can discuss them on their merits. So far none of you have been able to actually voice an answer and then be able to back them up.

You say I don’t want “these people” coming here at all. Which people? We have people from something like 140 nations pouring across our southern border. I have stated over and over again that I have no problem with legal immigration since that allows us to control who comes into our nation and for what reason. You have not managed to tell me why that is wrong, nor have you managed to tell me why illegal entry is so great. You were a LEO, why? You obviously don’t respect laws.

You say I don’t have to be an empathetic person. You are right again. I do not have to be one. I have empathy in some situations. But I will always think through the entire situation and not buy into things that try to use my emotions against me. If I think something is wrong I speak out about it. Isn’t that what the left does all the time? And how do they shut down the discussion? Make wild claims about their opponents, usually attacking them with their own emotions. Call someone a racist you are trying to use their shame against them. Say they don’t have empathy you are trying to use their feelings against them again.

You say these people are mostly refugees. No. You are 100% wrong. Refugees are fleeing a war. Asylum seekers are fleeing persecution for some specific reason…their religious beliefs, their political beliefs, racial discrimination, etc. Most of these people are NOT doing any of those. Refugees seek shelter in the nearest place to their home. Many of these people have crossed at least 5 or 6 countries to get to our border. That is not a refugee. Look at what happened to the actual refugees fleeing Ukraine. They poured into nations abutting their own nation. Poland got a lot because that is about the farthest place from Russia. And as Poland started getting too many, they sought help from their neighbors and the people were shuttled to another safe nation. A couple of points here: Poland knew how many people they were getting and how many they could deal with. Refugees don’t look to move to the nation they are going to, they are just looking for, well, refuge during a bleak time. They want to go back home. So a couple questions: can you say the same about the majority of those pouring across our southern border? Can you even say that most are refugees?

You put being impacted negatively from natural disasters in with being a refugee. Not entirely accurate but let’s consider that for a moment. A hurricane is coming…why didn’t you run to Mexico? Guatemala? Costa Rica? China? Don’t tell me you couldn’t afford it because many of the poor schmucks raiding our nation couldn’t afford to travel the thousands of miles to get here. I can sympathize with being impacted by natural disasters. I, too, am in a hurricane impacted area. I’ve lived in areas where blizzards happen. I’ve lost power for a week due to one. I never once considered myself a refugee. Should society help people impacted by disasters? Absolutely. I would never consider you a drain on society. If Mexico suddenly had a massive earthquake and they asked us for help with taking care of people, I’m all over that one. But none of this describes what is going on at our southern Border.

I recognize your story about interactions with illegal immigrants. I, too, have met many. Yep, they can be very hard working and could be a benefit to the country. Why didn’t they enter legally? Here’s another consideration. If dad came to this country on a work visa and worked for a season, coming back several years in a row, he’d be likely making more money than he would have staying in his home country. But those dollars would allow him a much better life in his home country than he had originally. He wouldn’t have to drag his family thousands of miles fraught with danger to them, to sneak into another land to live off the grid.

Razor wire, is that what Jesus would do? I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t say a thing about it. He said to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s and unto God that which was God’s. He believed that earthly rulers were to be obeyed, not cheated nor lied to. Earthly things were not what Jesus was about.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^That’s interesting that you think Jesus would have nothing to say about razor-wire.
To my knowledge, he was “adorned,” with a crown of thorns. No?
That would be the equivalent, in his time…..

You mentioned you have dealt with natural disasters, I believe you. I know you have dealt with worse.
But what you describe, is all of anthropology.
People leave places, for better places. If they have to, they keep moving.

I know some of them do pay thousands of dollars, to get here, and I was alway like “wish I could come up with $10,000.”
But. I believe it is wrong to stop people from naturally migrating.

I think, if we made the effort to bring these people in, it would benefit us in the long run.
I understand that what I want, is really hard to do. Organizing everything, but having abilities to constantly adapt to this mass immigration, would require money.
That’s all it takes, for most things to function. Funds, and appropriate/efficient use of them.
We’re building two new carriers,
currently at $23 billion, and projected to exceed that (like ALL projects of the sort.)
In case you haven’t been watching the Russian army get owned, by homemade drones, these carriers will be obsolete, by the time they are finished.
That’s one, single military project. That doesn’t include the billions of dollars that developed the technologies that will be incorporated into them. Or the vessels, and practical small navy that is a carrier group.

As with ANY problem we face, it can be easily fixed, if it can be, by money.

More taxes on the wealthy, or really just undoing Trump’s tax cuts, and abandoning military mega projects that are more of a luxury, would free up plenty of money to fund a real effort at changing the southern border.

Militarization.
Again. This IS NOT Berlin.
I am a former LEO. Part of why I left, was that you are correct in that I personally don’t respect a LOT of our laws. They don’t “serve” the community, they fuck it up.
Next time you get pulled over, how’d you like to be dragged out at gunpoint, and have a knee pressing your face to the asphalt?
Police, agencies like ICE, Border Patrol, are NOT military branches. They have exceptions, like SWAT. That’s Special Weapons AND Training.
Those highly trained, heavily vetted, elite people, are the only ones who civilians should have to fear.
Law enforcement is divided, but the different agencies work in cohesion. Very much, because each agency is trained to deal with specific threats.

The military is divided as well, as you know, also into specialized groups (ARMY, NAVY, MARINES, AIRFORCE, space force.)

Adding razor wire, lots of heavily armed forces, and a military mindset to the border or even giving cops ARs, is a slippery slope.
Our military is supposed to defend our nation and it’s interests. But they are not supposed to have anything to do with civilians. Unless they are MPs. Even then, only at like a military installation.

I understand the conservatives want to fight fire, with fire.
They want police fully armored and armed, at public schools.
They want teachers, with guns.
Metal detectors, and random stop and frisks.

I was a LEO. I do have some real experience in dealing with the public, in a way that is respectful, and reasonable.

A lot of officers will not arrest people who comply, and will write tickets, or simply destroy things like marijuana, and alcohol.
Yeah. The guy had a fixed blade knife in the floor of his car, and a cracked windshield.
I didn’t do much vehicle stopping, thank god. But it was apparent very quickly, that to really serve our community, we don’t go around locking everyone up, or deporting everyone. With this country’s laws, we’d ALL be in prison.
This country, IS NOT A PRISON.
Our citizens are NOT prisoners here. This us a democracy, or as you say a Democratic Republic.
The people ARE the boss.
The way it’s SUPPOSED to be, is that the only people higher up than the POTUS, are the people.
The average person.

We already started keeping ARs, and M4s in our trunks.
The results of that, are when you corner someone, they die in a hail of 5.56 × 45 rounds.
Those rounds, are NATO rounds.
Developed, designed, distributed, for killing people in sub class 2 armor.

I am VERY aware that civilians have their own weapons, and the one thing I can tell you, about ANY story is that when weapons were introduced into the interaction the possibility of things going badly increases exponentially.
I NEVER carried, when I was bouncing. Not even a telescoping baton. No weapons.
And guess what? I NEVER shot anyone. Crazy right? That I would try to enforce the law, without killing the people that I was paid to serve.
I even stopped carrying cuffs, other than a pocket full of plastic restraints.

I will admit it, I wasn’t a great LEO. Not in the way, I was supposed to be at the most extreme.

If we make walls, with spikes, and razor-wire, and moats, and people still climb them, should we start just machine-gunning them to death, before we even know what language they speak?

When I think militarization, I go straight back to Nazi Germany.
You’re OK with everyone having to have a ID tattoo? They’re going to have to get innovative in saying they will deport all illegal immigrants.
PC. Probable Cause, is as important as any evidence.
We have rights, as a citizen, or human, in America.
The right to not live in some militarized state, is exactly what most people want to avoid.

More people with badges, and high-powered rifles, and more reasons to shoot people, is not a ideology that I support.

As far as some illegal immigrants, I imagine that like me, they were maybe a different person many years ago. It’s impossible to lump everyone together like you do. Their only commonality, is that yes, they are here for a better life.
Dumbass fright-wing podcasters, and other people taking advantage of your fear, have helped shape your opinions.

As always, I have to repeat, nobody wants “open borders,” the way conservatives have manufactured the concept.

We just want people, to be treated like people.

As far as your understanding of the concept of climate related migration, due to necessity, your heroic story of being without power illustrates your lack of experience with such things.

Myself, and many people I knew throughout life, have had to go a month or so without power, because they can’t afford it.
And that’s a first world problem.

I have an idea. I’ll drop you off, in the dense jungles of Ecuador.
You’ll have to speak a language that only like 3,000 people in the world speak, and I’ll even give you a 1990 Geo Storm, with 900,000 miles on it’s 5th motor.
When you get to the US/Mexico border, IF you survive, I’ll give you 5 gallons of water, as a luxury most don’t have when they endure the trip.

Then, when you get here, we’ll put you in a camp, for however many years it takes to process you. Assuming you’d rather not go ALL the way back.

Again, IF you survive, I would love to retouch on this subject.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 “But. I believe it is wrong to stop people from naturally migrating.” That is the fundamental difference between us. To allow natural migration is to say national boundaries are no longer meaningful. That is not a realistic view of the world we live in. Without boundaries, you no longer have a country. Everything else you have to say becomes moot. Paying money to better process these people into the country, for instance, would be meaningless. Why pay taxes if the country doesn’t exist? Where is the money coming from? Where would the money to give them entitlements come from?

You see a huge benefit from allowing anyone to enter our country at any time and to start getting benefits from merely being here. I don’t. I see a whole lot of negatives that come from that. As I’ve said, I’m not against immigration, but it has to be controlled. Even in the hey-day of masses coming here around the turn of the 20th century not everyone that showed up was allowed in. They had to show they could support themselves for a period of time or they had to have a marketable skill. This was done to ensure we weren’t getting riff raff that would likely cause nothing but problems in society as well as ensuring those that showed up actually could contribute to society. Those that showed up and were not allowed in were basically sent back to wherever they came from on the next ship out.

You stopped being a LEO because you didn’t agree with some of the laws you were expected to enforce. I understand that. But suppose everyone had that same attitude? Suppose you just did what you want because you justified to yourself that it was okay regardless of the law? You are doing that right in this thread…demonstrating that thinking. You disagree with having any borders so you automatically believe immigration laws are meaningless and shouldn’t be followed. Suppose someone stole your car because they didn’t feel it was right that ownership of private property was okay? It would be so much better if we just took and used whatever we want. What do you think would happen to society?

Are there idiotic laws? Yep. Should they be deleted or changed to be something reasonable? Sure. But we have a process for doing that. Just ignoring them is not the way to do it and until they are changed you are still required to follow them.

You keep going on about money being the problem. Here’s a concept: if we cut off all the illegal immigration and put the money we are currently spending on all the patrols, etc. into dealing with that into processing people through approved ports of entry, wouldn’t that solve a lot of the problem and make things right for all of us? It wouldn’t take any more money than is already being spent.

MrGrimm888's avatar

You’re close, ro understanding me.
I want to get these people in, and give them a temporary social security number, so they can A. apply for better/legal jobs, and B. Most importantly, pay income tax. If they are in a state where it’s applicable, they need to pay property taxes.

I am aware of the idiotic lie conservatives spread, about these people getting unemployment, food stamps, and basically being paid to drink Tecate by a van all day.

That is not remotely true, despite some idiots claiming they have brown neighbors who vote, get free money/food, lodging.

No. The reality is that, if properly executed, taking in these people will provide a lot of tax revenue, both federal and state.
These people will be an integral part of in keeping our volunteer military stocked, and every other possible benefit of an offspring from you or I.

You clearly don’t know many immigrants. The first generation of many immigrants, are sometimes not even taught anything but English. This is because the people who came here, want to be Americans. I fond it ironic, that many immigrants share conservative values. They also care a lot about immigration, and religion.

I have said, I believe perhaps some type of ankle monitor should be attached to these folks, so they have no choice but to come back to the vetting process when it’s their turn.
Admittedly. I find this potential idea offensive. However. I understand that extreme circumstances, call for extreme actions.
I would rather tag, and release these people, than bus them all over, and leave them with nothing, or have them crossing illegally.

You are simply regurgitating what conservatives tell each other, like a good sheep. Your concerns are widely unfounded.

And your repeated use of the term “open borders,” further implies your preference for non-facts.

At THIS time, the GOP heavy congress, is THE ONLY THING STOPPING AN IMMIGRATION BILL.

No comment, on the crown of razor-wire? Well that’s a shame.
It would have said a LOT about using the equivalent, to torture to death your lord’s son. To shame him. Just an instrument of cruelty, not much efficacy.

As a former LEO, I can promise you that a meth-head, can conquer razor/barbed wire, with an old rug, or cardboard.

Again. A properly motivated person, should have little trouble with ANY fences, if they were capable of getting to them.
When Trump takes office, will you give the thumbs up, to a Spaceforce wall between Earth and the Moon? That’s just as plausible.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I personally believe there are a whole lot of things wrong with the immigration system. It is onerous to use and there are plenty of petty dictators in the process that love to let everyone know they are King (or Queen) Shit. But just letting people in is not the answer.

The problem we have is that our elected “leaders” can’t agree to follow the rules. The intent is to have people come legally, with visa applications for the various reason (work, citizenship, etc), that are then vetted and accepted or rejected. Asylum is supposed to be on those rare cases where they are being persecuted in their home country. But typically asylum seekers go to the first available country where the persecution no longer exists. Looking for better opportunities is not grounds for asylum. People coming from Asia, Europe, the ME, Africa, South America, all have to come through many, many countries. They amazingly don’t seek asylum at all until they enter this country and are caught at the border. Then they say they are seeking asylum. That is not how the law was intended.

I suggest a wall or better, a ditch (to make tunneling under even harder) to make the open border more closed. Add electronic monitoring would be even better. We have seen it work, we have seen it deter people from their normal crossing points, we have seen them have to find somewhere that is less hazardous to cross. It won’t stop 100% of the illegal entries, but it will deter many. It is far better than letting the world know that they can Come on In!!!

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Wulfie, just want to let ya know you NEVER have to worry I will never emigrate to your country legally or illegally.

seawulf575's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 Good to know! Thank you for respecting our borders. I’d never go to Canada illegally either. However, if you wanted to immigrate here legally, either on a temporary or permanent basis, I’d be glad to have you.

Dutchess_III's avatar

The lack of compassion by some of the Christians on this Q is stunning.

mazingerz88's avatar

^^Much more than that. It’s mostly white people scared of being “replaced.”

Dutchess_III's avatar

^^^^Tell them to go pick lettuce!

MrGrimm888's avatar

Wulf. The current system is dealing with a mass immigration.
Right now, it’s impossible to do it, the way we have it set up.
Some of these people, may not even be able to find an interpreter for weeks.
They just speak rare languages, from their little spots.
We are overwhelmed, and I believe radical changes would help. Not fences.

In case you weren’t aware, Israel has/had a wall like that. They had cameras and drones, and small outposts every so often.
The reason why Oct7 happened, is because the terrorists blew up the cameras with drones, blinding the IDF. They punched through the wall with construction equipment.
They flew over the walls, in powered gliders.
There’s literally nothing you, or I, could design, that would humanely prevent illegal crossings.

That being the case, we can’t wish these people away.
Other than just mowing them down, or executing them, we have to figure out how to handle this ever evolving problem.

More, and more, conservatives sound like they desire a North Korea-like border. Just kill any living thing, that gets within 100 yards.
Then they want guns in schools, and agencies rounding up people who have lived here for decades, in many cases.
If the immigrants were a girlfriend, they’d be a “common-law” wife.
They want “tough on crime” mentalities, and they may coincidentally lock up a LOT of minorities. Takes care of their votes, and keeps those races culled.
I don’t know what the end game is, for women. I guess they’ll be pushed down as well. And eventually deemed a lesser lifeform.

It’s frankly disturbing, how selfish, and spiteful, and ridiculous it is getting.
And even though they’re too pick your word, to understand that they are voting against their interests, they will.
And when the voting is going on, there WILL be ”watchers”(right-wing extremists, looking to use their open carried firearm, and armor “needed” for “secure voting” (ie trying to intimidate voters, and exhibit their loyalty to a false prophet.)

And we never told the world to “come in in.” Or. Is that carved in the Statue of Liberty.
Anyone remember the Statue of Liberty? THE REAL ICON OF AMERICA.
Trump is a disgrace.
The country under his leadership WAS a laughing stock, and pissed away decades of diplomacy and good faith.
It’s indefensible to opine otherwise that Trump pulling the US out of a deal with Iran, has brought us to our current cluster-fuck.
Obama had them AT THE TABLE.
Had we maintained, or even improved our relationship with Iran, they may not be funding conflicts in their region, and providing technology and mainly drones, to the Syrian leadership, and of course Russia.
We were on a path that could have got Saudi Arabia, Israel, and other quasi-allies, in positions to improve their relationships as well.

Trump has already proclaimed how he would “handle” (fuck up,) some of our most important worldwide issues our country faces.
He won’t have ANY good advisors, because he went through them, like men went through Stormy Daniels.
He’ll just have whoever is hungry enough to sell their souls, to potentially financially benefit from being yesmen. (Losers.)
Congress, whose entire existence is meant to balance the Executive branch, will instead push the gas down into whatever direction the Frankenstein’s monster that is the GOP desires.
Trump likely won’t start REALLY fucking up the world, until he’s enjoyed the process of humiliating and/or imprisoning his detractors, and gotten a firm grasp on what the media can say.
IF he has the J6ers released, as he has claimed he may, I guess he’s opening the door for a left-wing version. Not that that would happen, of course.

Trump being elected again, could be like Thanos acquiring the last Infinity Stone.

At minimum, I think we’ll see Trump’s Bible everywhere, like in hotel rooms, even classrooms, instead of the Gideon ones. At least I’ll have plenty of fire starter…....

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 We are overwhelmed because so many are ignoring the immigration laws. They are just showing up. That’s the problem. I looked it up one time and it was astounding to me. If you are in Nicaragua you can apply for a visa to immigrate here for right at about $200. The process takes several weeks and, if you are accepted, you get your visa. Instead, so many are spending weeks hiking this way, getting beaten, robbed, raped, and killed, subjecting their children to that as well, and are paying thousands of dollars to the coyotes to help them. Now why would they do that? Think about that for a moment.

Israel did have a wall to help secure their lands and yes, the INVADERS managed to get by those defenses. But you are trying to equate an concerted attack with illegal immigration. A bunch of helpless people coming up to that wall would not be just waltzing in as they do into our country. Want proof? Okay, using the same ME scenario, you may not know it but Egypt has a wall like that to keep out people from the Gaza Strip from just walking into their country. They ensured that wall was solid and they staffed it with extra people when Hamas attacked Israel. They knew the flood of actual refugees would be coming and they didn’t want them. My guess is that they weren’t worried about actual refugees, they were worried about Hamas trying to sneak in soldiers as refugees to let them escape from Israel’s retaliation. Sort of like what I have been saying. They knew not all those coming to their border were what they said they were.

As for conservatives sounding like they want a North Korea border, I’ll let you have your beliefs. I have stated my views of what immigration should look like and not once have I mentioned shooting anyone that breached our borders. As for the rest of the attributes you are assigning to us, you are basically out to lunch. There are some you are right on but you don’t want to look at it fairly.

As for announcing “Come On In!!” you are right…those words were never used. But when Biden took office, almost immediately he announced to the world that the priorities at the border were changing, that processing was going to be pushed instead of trying to keep them out. He announced he was going to stop deporting those that enter illegally and was proposing to grant amnesty to over 11 million illegals that already were in our country. In other words, he announced to the world that the border was open for anyone that wanted to come. And the world answered.

As for Trump’s decisions, let me point one out to you that you have entirely backward. Trump pulled out of the deal to release the $6B to Iran because Iran was still sponsoring terrorists groups. He knew releasing that money would only make it worse. And during his time in office Iran did nothing. Then Biden took office and readily signed off on releasing the money to Iran as part of a hostage deal with them. This was done about the middle of September 2023. And what did you get? Iran sponsored Hamas to attack Israel on Oct 7. They then went on to sponsor the Houthis to commit terrorist acts against Israel and the US. They also have now escalated to attacking Israel. So let’s recap…Trump decides to not release the funds because Iran will use them to sponsor terrorism and there are no major terrorist attacks in the region. Biden releases the funds and immediately terrorism flourishes in the region. So how is this Trump’s fault? I know, you hate Trump so everything that Biden is doing wrong is somehow Trump’s fault. You just have to do mental gymnastics to get to that conclusion.

mazingerz88's avatar

^^trump is a sociopathic
asshole who could have done something sensible along with the Dems with regards to immigration. So his pitiful stunt in the WH as douchebag president would not have been useless.

Your desire to follow existing immigration laws is laughable
in light of jellie McGrimm’s clear
explanation that the nature of WORLD immigration had already changed. Make America Gullible Again? Dump your douchebag idol and stop licking his butt! It’s so un-American.

seawulf575's avatar

@mazingerz88 Look at the facts. We are one of the few nations with no real effort to stop or penalize illegal immigration. So no, world immigration has not really changed except nations are sending us their dregs. How can I say that? If they were productive members of society in their own nation they wouldn’t make the crazy trip here to enter illegally. They would apply for a visa and come here to use their skills here.

As for Trump being able to do something about immigration, why do you assume the Dems have the only answer? They want open borders. That is a huge threat to the USA . Also, if you remember, shortly after taking office he asked CONGRESS to do something about the immigration laws. That is where the change comes from. When they did nothing, he started pushing what he could to stem the tide. And if you remember, the DEMOCRATS fought him every step of the way. Why couldn’t they work with him to resolve some of the issues? Sociopathic Dems?

But here’s where the issue really is. You and many others on the left spout loudly that we need illegal immigration even though that allows a lot of bad aspects into our nation. So why do we need illegal immigration? Why is legal immigration asking too much? Please, help us out here. World immigration isn’t really the answer since we are an outlier of countries that allow it. So why are you so hot to push for illegal entry into the country?

mazingerz88's avatar

^^All things and anything related to trump is merely distraction these days. Which is an American tragedy.

I personally haven’t made any declaration that we need “illegal immigration.” What I would continue doing for now politically is support politicians who do not demonize “illegal immigrants.”
Because there is nothing that saddens me more than seeing one ugly American take center stage here and abroad these past several years.

This is not the brand of leadership I want to see shamelessly unfold in my lifetime as an Anerican. I have yet to learn a lot of things but one thing I do know, trump and his supporters are keeping us from moving on in getting immigration issues resolved or at the least get some practical and humane potential solutions initiated.

When it comes to addressing immigration, you and your fellow trump voters’ problem is this, you fail to see that trump is a fatal distraction.

As I had posted before here in Fluther, Schumer and Pelosi were on their way to the WH the first few weeks of trump’s stunt as POTUS. To cut a deal on the border. He backed off from that.

seawulf575's avatar

@mazingerz88 No, you didn’t declare we “needed” illegal immigrants, you only pointed to @MrGrimm888‘s comment about world immigration. In other words you are all for illegal immigration. Why don’t you want secure borders?

Blackwater_Park's avatar

In 2017 ~300,000 people were apprehended trying to cross, in 2019 it was ~860,000, in 2022 it was ~2.3 million. I don’t care what your politics are, this is a problem and things cannot continue the way they are. Put simply, this country needs to open the front doors a lot more and board up the back doors. Democrats and Republicans should not be arguing over this.

seawulf575's avatar

@Blackwater_Park Amen. But those were the apprehensions. There were probably 3–5 that got away for every one that was apprehended.

MrGrimm888's avatar

According to the deal with Iran, the money “given back to them,” could NOT be spent on things like nuclear weapons.
It kept uranium enriching around 60% (not high enough for weapons grade, just “medical research, and power.)
There were to be occasional inspections, by external parties to ensure that this wasn’t being violated.
Releasing the finds, was “giving back something stolen,” to them.
And it helped GET THEM TO THE TABLE.
If not for Trump, we would at least HAVE a relationship with Iran.
In diplomacy, you have to make concessions. That’s how it works. Good faith. Long periods of a stable relationship with the US, including trade, would likely have us in far better circumstances now.
The world is full of people with different cultures than us, but we still have to work with them.

Trump had his Muslim ban, and often referred to places as “shit-hole countries.” Rhetoric he continues to spew.
If you watch Trump meeting with foreign leaders, and diplomats, in his first few months you can notice a steady decline worldwide, as other leaders eventually started tuning him out, and trying not interact with him. When he was attending world summits, he was aggressive for no reason to our allies, and praising our enemies.
The world, as a whole, decided to “wait him out.” Instead of the headache of trying to deal with Trump, the world saw it’s first glimpse of what it’s like without America.
Biden, like Obama before him, had many fences to mend, after taking the wheel back from a republican president.

Afghanistan, is something conservatives point to as Biden’s work too. If you were listening to your God King, he started the the things in motion that led to the US withdrawal.
Something Trump actually was right about, but doesn’t want any credit because it makes him look bad.
The war in Afghanistan, NEVER should have happened.
Most of our problems in the Middle East are due to another republican president.

There are zero “mental gymnastics” required, to tie Republican presidents, and/or congresses, to history.
These are facts. I know conservatives think that word is subjective, but it isn’t.

You’re never going to believe this, but I totally supported giving those 11 million people citizenship. They were already Americans.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Yes, I know the wording is that it has to be spent on helping people with food, housing etc. Let’s say you are running a company and are making $1M per year in profits but it takes $1M to keep the business running. You are basically breaking easy. But then someone comes along and says they will give you another $1M but you can only spend it on salaries for employees. You are currently spending $200k per year on salaries. So you say yes! You put that money into a pot and call it “Salaries”. You don’t give any raises and you only use that money to pay for salaries. That now frees up $200k per year for you to spend however you want. You met the requirement of spending the money with the stipulation on it but you now have money you can spend however you want. You could take that $200k from the first year and hire a hitman to put your competitor out of business and still not break the stipulation of the $1M you were given.

The “Muslim Ban” is an uber left-wing talking point. Trump put a ban on people from specific countries known to be places that terrorists herald from or are trained. Most of these have publicly called for Death To America. It was, I believe, 7 countries. There are some 28 Muslim countries in the world. But hey, don’t let facts cloud your fantasies.

As for our appearance in the eyes of the world, we have other nations putting on skits of Bumbling Joe and Cackling Kamala. No one takes him serious. China is using him and he is working out well for them. There were no wars under Trump, We are now getting into 2 in less than 3 years under Biden. So who doesn’t have the respect of the world?

Afghanistan was set up to be ended by Trump, this is true. And he passed on the timeline because he listened to his advisers that it would be a huge debacle if they just pulled out. It had to be done over time. Unfortunately for us, Biden became POTUS before that could be done. Then Biden decided to just pull out. And what happened? Exactly what Trump recognized…a debacle. We left Americans behind, we left our allies in that country high and dry, and we gave over $1B of military gear behind for those loving Taliban. I don’t disagree that we should never have gotten involved in Afghanistan with military. We should have recognized that after the USSR got involved for 20 years with no success. And yes, I blame Bush II. But then I’m not a Republican. You seem to keep forgetting that. And yes, it does take mental gymnastics to twist things as much as you do. You are too gullible and fall for the left-wing talking points without question.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^It’s not a question of “wording.”
It was a deal.
If you already knew the answer, then you are aware you have painted yourself as a hypocrite, for claiming otherwise. You are spread “fake news.”

You say we are getting into wars with Biden. What war, is America in currently? None.
If you mean that Biden is doing his job, getting involved with international security, THAT does take mental gymnastics. Or. Lies.

The Muslim ban you describe as a “uber left-wing talking point,” illustrates how far right you are. Nothing less.

Your defense of Trump’s responsibility for Afghanistan, is some of your worst work.

It was NEVER going to be anything but a debacle. Doing it slowly, would have exposed the dwindling US forces there.

GW already set that failure in motion, and Trump, to his credit, was pulling the plug. NOW, you want to backtrack, and misrepresent history AGAIN.

The reason why America has been so tied to the ME, is because of our dependence on fossil fuel. A bipartisan failure.
But AGAIN, we see republican leaders fighting the facts on climate change, for the sole purpose of greed.

The dems are no help. But, the republicans have done most of the damage to our country, and the world, in the past few decades.

You trying to make Biden out to be as disrespected as Trump internationally, has absolutely ZERO basis in reality.

I’m glad you called Biden “Bumbling Joe.” After watching Trump snoozing through his own court processions, you can’t really stick with “Sleepy Joe,” anymore.

“We left our allies high and dry.”
Another right-wing lie.
We left Afghanistan after years of training them to fight, and arming them.
The Afghan military developed a reputation for abandoning positions as The Taliban closed in. As things were, we would have had to stay indefinitely. Even Trump knows that is bad for business. Especially when they apparently, were just not cut out for fighting for their homelands.

The Ukrainians, are doing what we thought the Afghans would do. They are doing their own fighting, and as a result they have stalled the once mighty Russian army.

Afghanistan was like America being the drunk guy who ruined a wedding. He doesn’t need to try to clean up, just get the fuck out. And we did, just like your God King wanted!
You clearly haven’t noticed, but pretty much everything Trump says is a lie, or misrepresentation of the facts.
Admittedly, sometimes he’s not being evil, he’s just really not a smart guy. So, he makes mistakes. Like thinking the woman he sexually assaulted was his ex-wife, in a photograph.

As for your claiming that you are not republican, I would say perhaps once. But now, you are. Don’t discredit yourself further, by trying to deny that.

Now. Stop wasting time trying to spread lies, and start writing checks for your God King.
Get yourself a Trump Bible. That can replace your King James version.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I know the wording. I know it’s a “deal”. And Iran will use that pot of money for humanitarian issues. But that just frees up other money that wasn’t frozen to be used for whatever they want. That’s how it works.

As for the rest, I’m not going to even waste time. You and I see things entirely differently and that’s okay. But this question was about the invasion at the southern border, not Afghanistan, not Trump, not any of the rest of the diatribe you just put out. You might want to re-examine your mental state. You just teed off on stuff that wasn’t even in discussion. That might be showing obsession.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^We disagree here, as well.
Trump, is the origin of the question. It is he, and his hateful ilk, who say we are being “invaded.” Nobody else.
The republican led congress is the only reason that the border is in it’s current condition, as they didn’t want good things for the country IF it’s because of a Democrat.
That’s American politics.
The parties hold staying in office, over the interests of the country.

That seems pretty relevant, to me.

seawulf575's avatar

sigh Only in your mind is a question about Trump when it is not mentioned once. I suggest you go back to re-read the question. You really do need help. You are obsessed.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Whom do you credit, for the “invasion” rhetoric?
Since you’re not biased, and have the superior intellect, maybe you could explain it to po folks like me.

seawulf575's avatar

I’d say that many people can form their own opinions about whether it is an invasion or not. When the news is showing caravans of thousands of people coming to our country to enter illegally, that is a pretty telling point. When you see statistics of millions of illegals encountered in one year, that is a pretty telling point. When you see the Fentanyl deaths going up, that is a pretty telling point. When you see cities struggling to deal with the massive influx of illegals, that is a pretty telling point.

Your problem is that you are Trump obsessed. You firmly believe that any conservative can and does only think what Trump tells them. That isn’t true at all. You are, in fact, so obsessed with it that you believe this question was about Trump and are still trying desperately to make it so. Show me in the original question where Trump is mentioned.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^One thing that is true enough, is that I am unaware of why the OP used the word “invaded.” Especially putting only that word, in quotation.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 No, you THINK you know why the word invaded was used. It’s because many Americans feel it is an invasion. It’s because of the endless flow of people from almost every nation in the world pouring across our border with Mexico. But you believe it is only because Trump said it was. Have you ever once stopped to think about how arrogant you are? Have you ever thought that Trump says things that many people are already thinking and saying and that you are reversing the process…believing he is saying it and mindless zombies repeat it? You are obsessed.

mazingerz88's avatar

^^And you are obsessed with concerned Americans who you attack as trump-obsessed or trump-deranged.

There are simple valid reasons why your trump-tard gets into every political discussion in this country. You are embarassing yourself with your vehemence in labeling people trump-obsessed.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Actually Wulf, I was hoping that the OP would clarify why they used the word invaded, in quotes, before I potentially wrongfully assume anything else.

Yes. I am fully aware that Trump “says things that people are already thinking.”
He knew that he was targeting bigots, and simpletons.
As Trump has a history of being one of the sheep himself, before he was elected by the EC.
Trump’s sheep, were already sheep.
They still follow the shepherds on abortion (Christian beliefs,)
immigration (bigotry,) and anti-LBGTQ+ initiatives (again Christian beliefs.)

You sheep follow any carnival barker. Or. Scam artist.

I’m really more obsessed with how anyone could listen to Trump, for more than 45 seconds, and not think “that is one dumb SOB.”
The only logical reason for his sheep never straying, is crystal clear. They were always scared, shrinking, racist, and hemorrhaging power.

Trump’s sheep, are united by what most people would say are un-American traits.
They’re SO afraid of a diverse America, that they are willing to compromise themselves in a desperate hail marry to try and keep white Christians in power.

I have NEVER once, endorsed an American president.
I despise the system, completely.
You can try and make me out to be someone spreading left-wing politics, but that logic doesn’t make sense. As I don’t support either candidate, nor will I vote.

I just call em like I see em Wulf.
Foul ball. Strike. Foul ball. Strike. Etc. Your God King is pitching nothing but lies, and fear induced division.
And I’ll keep calling his pathetic fat orange ass out. And his sheep.

seawulf575's avatar

@mazingerz88 I’m concerned about people like that because they are irrational. If you have a question that isn’t about any candidate and the first thing you do it start ranting about Trump, that is irrational. It shows an unhealthy obsession that blocks the ability to have a rational discussion on any topic. I’m sorry if you see a person like that in the mirror, but I call it out when I see it.

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