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LostInParadise's avatar

Which proof is better?

Asked by LostInParadise (31914points) July 22nd, 2009

I don’t know how many people here have any interest in math. I know BonusQuestion and Finkelitis did, but I have not seen either of them here for some time.

There is an historically important proof that the square root of two is irrational that was given by Euclid. It is the first published proof that a number is irrational, though the original discovery was made by one the followers of Pythagoras. It created a bit of controversy at the time since Pythagoras ran what might be considered a mathematical cult which had as its premise that everything in the world could be described in terms of ratios of integers.

Anyway, Euclid’s proof goes as follows:
Assume that sqrt(2) is rational and therefore there are integers p and q such that (p/q)^2 = 2. Further assume that p and q are chosen so they have no common divisor. We get p^2 = 2q^2. p^2 is therefore an even number and since odd times odd gives odd, it follows that p must be even. Then p=2r for some r. Substituting, we get (2r)^2 = 2q^2, or 4r^2 = 2q^2. Dividing both sides by 2 we get q^2 = 2r^2 and conclude that q must be even, but this contradicts the assumption that p and q have no divisor, so we can conclude that no p/q exists for sqrt(2) and that it is therefore irrational.

My problem with this proof is that it seems like a court case where the defendant gets out on a technicality. It doesn’t seem to involve the essence of irrational numbers.

Now consider this proof, which uses a technique that can be used in a lot of cases to show that a number is irrational.

It is easy to show that sqrt(2) – 1 < 0.5. Then (sqrt(2) – 1)^n < (.5)^n. But (sqrt(2) – 1)^n has the form a*sqrt(2) – b. Suppose sqrt(2) = p/q. Then (a*p + -b*q)/q < (.5)^n. But 1/q < (a*p + -b*q)/q, so 1/q < (.5)^n for all n. But this is impossible since (.5)^n can be made arbitrarily small. So therefore we get a contradiction and the proof follows as before.

This proof is longer, but it uses a more applicable technique that gets at the heart of the properties of rational numbers.

So what do you think?

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5 Answers

peyton_farquhar's avatar

You lost me at 1/q < (a*p – b*q)/q. Where is it proven that (a*p – b*q) is greater than 1?

LostInParadise's avatar

a and b are integers and the whole fraction is equal to (sqrt(2) – 1), so the numerator must be some positive integer. I should have said <=.

swuesquire's avatar

Honestly, no offense, but the original proof is elegant, and nicely rooted in the properties of rational numbers. I also like that the technique can be generalized to show which squares are rational and which are irrational.

Your proof is nice, assuming it is correct (I have not done my due diligence here), but unduly complicated and does not generalize well as far as I can see. Nice work though.

whitenoise's avatar

I prefer the general proof that all square roots are irrational, other than those of squared rationals:

If we start with sqrt(n) being rational, that means that we can find integer numbers a and b so that sqrt(a/b) = sqrt(n), where the biggest common devisor for a and b =1.

Now, since we cannot further reduce n = (a^2 / b^2), and because we know n is a round positive number, we know that b^2 = 1. Therefore n=a^2/1 and we know that this means n is a square of an integer.

Since we now know that all squareroots that are rational are squareroots of squared rationals, all other squareroots must result in irrational numbers.

edit: sorry, I didn’t answer your question. I like Euclid’s better. It is elegant logic and it has such historic meaning, that it will always have a lead. Any math that can be proven without too much equations has my preference.

finkelitis's avatar

I like both of them @LostInParadise . The second proof you give is quite nice, I think, and seems like it exploits a certain key fact that strikes at the essence of the irrationals. I do like Euclid’s proof also, though. Both seem equally generalizable. Situations like this always come down to aesthetics, if the proofs are both accurate.

I hadn’t seen the second before, though, and I always have a little romance with novel proofs. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

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