What do you think about Obama bowing to Heads of State and Royalty?

I honestly could not care less. It’s not like he’s kissing anyones feet or anything. Let the man bow.

They should be bowling with him. Being the leader of the greatest country of the world, is good times at any local bowling alley.

It would be best if he followed established protocol here (and I suspect he will in the future). On the other hand, this is, at most, a minor gaffe in form and not the big news FOX would have the gullible believe.

It makes for pretty good conspiracy chatter. (And maybe that’s part of what’s keeping the dollar on life support.)

@nayeight True not kissing feet, but I think you fail to understand that the deep bow in the cultures receiving him mean he is lower in status. In America (I am assuming you are American) we think in terms of all bows are alike, but in Asian culture a deep bow is halfway between a handshake and kissing feet.

@JLeslie, I think people who are concerned about superficial displays of respect remind me of chimpanzees obsessed with dominance hierarchies.

I think it’s pretty disgusting that people want our president to act like a “pack leader,” as if the world’s civilizations were groups of ignorant animals.

Also, please support your assertion that Japanese interpret bowing deeply the same way that we would view kissing someone’s feet. I think that’s patently ridiculous.

I think he bowed a little too deeply, but from what I’ve heard from a Japanese friend it didn’t even make the news in Japan; that is, they didn’t seem to think it was significant. So why should we care? I think it is just polite to respect others’ cultures.

Bush would greet the saudi prince with a kiss and hold his hand. Scandalous!! No, actually he was just being polite and respecting a foreign culture.

Also, what is this “established protocol” about not bowing? Where is this protocol? I’ve never heard of it. Something tells me Fox News made it up.

I don’t think that it’s that big of a deal. You bow to show respect and that’s what he did. Obviously if he is President of the United States, other world leaders know that he is not of low status. I think this is much, much worse.

Wow, really? It’s seriously a non-issue.

@Qingu Kissing feet is of course ridiculously extreme, but here are some links on bowing http://gojapan.about.com/cs/etiquetteinjapan/a/bowing.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowing

I think the Japanese generally do not expect people from outside of their culture to get the bows right, so it probably is something they overlook all of the time, but I think our president should know what is proper and expected.

I’m not outraged or disgusted that he did, like FOX news makes it out to be, I just think he is not using proper protocol.

@JLeslie, from your first source:

“This type of bow signifies deep gratitude, a respectful greeting, a formal apology, asking for favors, and so on.”

What exactly is the problem here?

And please define “proper protocol.” What protocol, exactly? Is there something in the Constitution limiting the arc-radians of presidential bows?

I agree with @Qingu and @phoenyx and personally I think that Obama comes across as very likeable because he is not afraid to aknowledge another person of power even if that means gesturing in such a way that makes the other person appear more powerful. It’s humbling. The whole world knows exactly how powerful and superor Obama is and Obama knows this, the fact that he is not up his own arse about this fact is very refreshing.

It reminds me of something I once heard (but don’t know if there is any truth in it) about Cherie Blair refusing to curtsey to the Queen Mother. It came across as very self obsessed just because of the position she was in at the time. I am not sure if this is actually what happened but there is reference to it here : http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-479963/Blairs-sinister-campaign-undermine-Queen.html

Anyway, the point is, Obama doesn’t have to prove anything and for the sake of a polite gesture that isn’t causing harm to anyone I think he did the right thing.

This talks about what I am thinking of when I say protocol http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8310877 I would assume if the wife of a president is not supposed to curtsy to royalty, then either is the president.

@JLeslie, that’s the second time you’ve cited a source that does not support your claim.

Or are you arguing that, because President Kennedy’s “chief of protocol” had reservations about someone bowing to the Queen of England, there exists an objective “protocol” for presidents to follow re: degrees of bowing to foreign leaders? Because that makes no sense.

I honestly don’t care about it. I want healthcare, jobs and food. Bowing just doesn’t make my list right now.

@ChazMaz
Being the leader of the greatest country of the world
Not true. Angela Merkel is the Chancellor of Germany.

@ragingloli – :-)

@Qingu I was inferring that it seems protocol is that our president if at an equal or greater level to another would not bow or curtsy. It would seem odd to me that the Queen of England would curtsy to the King of pick a country.

It will be interesting if someone from Japan comments on this thread.

Also I don’t know why there is so much fuss about the president bowing to the Japanese God Emperor. Japanese don’t shake hands, they bow instead. That is normal greeting over there. Now you can argue that he might have bowed to deeply, but if I remember correctly, to show subservience, he would actually have fall on his knees, looking at the ground.
(I do think he should have kept eye contact with the God Emperor while bowing.)

@JLeslie, so you don’t think Obama is actually breaking an established “protocol.” He’s breaking what you personally feel his protocol should be.

The reason I don’t care about Obama bowing is the same reason that I don’t care about your personal opinions of protocol. Moreover, I think your rationale is bizarre and primitive. It’s not like bowing to someone of an “equal or lower level” indicates that our economy no longer dwarfs theirs, or that we can no longer blow up their cities with nuclear weapons or remote controlled predator drones.

I do think bowing is a much better approach than what Bush did. when he was in Japan.

@Qingu I think you are confusing me with people who hate Obama and crazies on Fox news. I am not aghast by the whole thing, just think it better he didn’t. If he ate his salad with the wrong fork it would be a trip up in etiquette also, I don’t think the sky is falling or anything like that. But, yes, my opinion is probably more appropriate not to bow so deeply.

I don’t understand why this should bother anyone even remotely. Other than the obvious: wounded pride.

And I don’t think that’s a good reason to be bothered.

@Qingu Wounded pride? I’m just talking about etiquette and protocol. You can argue that you think all of that type of thing is bullshit, that I can understand. It seems to me that even if he did break protocol or some sort of unwritten rule or custom, you don’t care, because it seems trivial to you anyway. Or, maybe I am reading you wrong?

As they say in Karate, bow all you want, but never take your eyes off your opponent.

@JLeslie, you are correct that I wouldn’t care if he was breaking protocol, because I would think such a protocol is “bullshit.”

However, what bothers me about your posts is that you are basically inventing reasons to be bothered. You first claimed that his bow was equivalent to kissing someone’s feet to the Japanese. This is not true, and your own source showed that the degree of his bow showed an appropriate level of respect.

Then you claimed that his bow violated some kind of “protocol” that presidents follow. But there is no such protocol.

If his bow bothers you, we can agree to disagree, but let’s be honest about our reasons for disagreeing.

The way I see it, he was showing respect for another culture. I think that’s great. One of the biggest complaints I have heard about Americans is that we do not respect other cultures so when our leader, the man we chose to represent us to the rest of the world, respects other cultures, well, it makes me damn proud to be an American.

I’m sure he’s been briefed on how to great people in other cultures. He’s just showing respect. I sure non-Americans appreciate that since Americans are not known to be respectful people.

Being mindful of another’s culture and showing respect for it… How awful!!!

Even if he did bow too deeply, I’m sure that he was responded to or responding in the same way. We won’t see that kind of thing on the fear-mongering news networks, but there is nothing whatsoever wrong in greeting someone in the way that they are accustomed to being greeted.

If the protocol of the White House thus far has been to continue to be an insular culture that ignores others and their customs in favor of “the way we do it around here,” its a protocol that needs to be changed.

@avvooooooo: Very well said!

Another thing that comes to mind: what happens if the Emperor of Japan comes here and bows to our President but refuses to shake hands? Maybe it’s Japanese policy to only greet foreigners the way the Japanese greet people. That would have certainly caused an uproar here.

This reminds me of how everybody (mostly men) automatically do the “black guy handshake” whenever they greet a black guy! lol, and the more elaborate the handshake, the more impressed other people are with you. So funny.

@Facade: That made me chuckle.

@mammal: You know, it always helps to actually know what you’re talking about before you make stupid statements.

I think Obama might just be the most respected politician in the world atm. I don’t see how ceremonial acts show weakness. I think political decisions do.

@Qingu You said, It’s ridiculous for our President “to act like a “pack leader.” As @JLeslie is pointing out, the deeper the bow, the more subservient you are indicating you are. He should have kept the bow shallow, to indicate equality, not dominance or subservience. For those who say it’s no big deal, well, if you met the President and he went down on one knee if front of you in greeting, what would you think? It’s just a “social action,” but it speaks volumes. I’m sure he won’t make the same mistake again.

Oh, yeah. I can see the conspiracy theorists having a hey day with that one!

@mammal Although he’s putting 30,000 troops into Afghanistan, he’s pulling 150,000 OUT of Iraq. He’s sending 30,000 more troops in to Afghan. because that’s where we should have been all along. The Al Qaeda is based in Afghanistan, and, in case you’ve forgotten, they bombed the trade towers. The Bush Admin. for whatever stupid reason, used that as an excuse to go after Iraq! Bush had 150,00 troops in Iraq, vs only 50,000 in Afghanistan. What Obama said, was, “No, you guys weren’t imagining things. We had no valid reason to be in Iraq, so I’m pulling our troops out beginning now, and we’re going to refocus on our original mission, to put the Al Qaeda down once and for all! And we’ll do it in 18 months, then we’ll start pulling out of Afghan. and they will be responsible for their own country.”

You know, he’s finally getting to the point where he gets to create his own policy, instead of having to clean up after Bush, what with all the bailouts and stuff (those were implemented under the Bush admin, and voted in. Obama had no choice but to carry it out.)

@Qingu I did not compare to kissing feet. @nayeight brought it up as an extreme, and I felt she had no idea that bows in different cultures are perceived differently. How an American thinks of a bow is not how an Asian does. Most Americans are compeletely unaware that there are even any “rules” about bowing, and how deep a bow is and might signify status. I don’t understand why you say my link about protocol does not support what I said. It states “Before the Kennedy’s first state visit to England, Jacqueline Kennedy asked Duke whether she should curtsy to the Queen. He told her no because she was the wife of the head of state and heads of state and their wives do not go around bowing and curtsying to one another.”

Even so, I see there is probably no arguing with you since you think the topic is meaningless anyway.

@avvooooooo I agree with the point when in Rome do as the Romans. So the question is, does the Japanese Emporer or President ever bow like that to others? Like I mentioned before I doubt the Queen of England does a curtsy when meeting other royalty, but maybe I am wrong? I don’t know the real answer to that.

@Val123 Deeper bows aren’t showing subservience in general, they’re showing respect. I think its understood here that a deeper bow meant deep respect. :)

nmd.

@Val123, with all due respect, I think you have a pretty warped and primitive view of international relations. Most of us have moved on from the stage of human society where we act like packs of wolves or chimpanzees obsessing over who is more subservient in a dominance hierarchy.

Frankly, I think people like you need to grow up.

@JLeslie, there are rules about bowing. Your source elaborated them. And Obama’s bow, by the rules of your own source, indicated deep respect or gratitude (or an apology… which, arguably, wouldn’t be a bad message to send a country we nuked twice).

Re: Kennedy and curtseying, I asked you for an “official protocol.” You gave me one of Kennedy’s staff members expressing his view on whether or not the first lady should bow to the Queen of England. That’s not official protocol in any sense.

I see it as a complete non-issue to be 100% frank here. It seems to me that Obama was briefed on what local customs are, he probably asked to be briefed, because he cares, he wants to show respect to other leaders, he wants to say to them basically, “I don’t think I’m better than you.” He doesn’t want to come off the way our previous President did…as he basically treated both US foreign and domestic policy as a “my way or the highway” type of affair. Obama is a different kind of leader, he is one who wants to say to the rest of the world, “hey, we’re all in this together, so let’s cooperate and get things done.” Now, him bowing at too great of an angle may well have been a big of a gaffe, he may have either misinterpreted what he was supposed to do, or he may have been given bad information….maybe no one explained the distinction to him. But the fact remains that no one seemed offended by it except for the people who are offended by Obama’s very existence and will fight him tooth and nail. These days Fox News and the die hard right wing would say up was down, left was right and red was blue if Obama stated the facts….they are grasping at straws to point out anything he does as wrong, even if it isn’t wrong.

Now I know you, @JLeslie are on Obama’s side, and it’s understandable to be concerned, and I think a lot of this discussion is going kind of off topic with this unnecessary back and forth he said she said BS. Now, and I apologize because I can’t cite the source, but I can tell you this. The one and ONLY article I read about Obama’s deep bow pointed out that just because Bush Jr. didn’t observe local customs, it’s a fallacy that previous Presidents did not. They pointed out other Presidents, both Dems and Republicans who had done similar things.

There is however a bottom line that I think we should all be able to agree on:

1) There is nothing wrong with observing local custom, even if you are the leader of the most powerful nation on the planet (hell, ESPECIALLY if you are if you ask me)

2) Though his bow may have been too deep, it did not offend the locals, the only people who claimed to actually be offended were people in his own country who before this by and large didn’t even know of the custom in the first place and are making hay out of anything they can.

and therefore,

3) It’s not a big deal, even if the message was not the one he wanted to deliver, one would almost have to assume that a world leader greeting another world leader would be more pleased that the other leader made the effort to observe their customs than disappointed that he didn’t get it exactly right. Consider if someone from a foreign land greeted you in a customary American manner but got a couple words out of place, would you be offended, or would you be impressed that they tried? All in all, it’s a sign of respect, and it’s not like he accidentally puked on the emperor.

@oratio I believe Queen Elizabeth is the first child of King George VI.

@Qingu From Wikipedia: “Bowing is considered extremely important in Japan, so much so that, although children normally begin learning how to bow from a very young age, companies commonly provide training to their employees in how to execute bows correctly.
Generally speaking, an inferior bows longer, more deeply and more frequently than a superior. A superior addressing an inferior will generally only nod the head slightly, while some superiors may not bow at all and an inferior will bend forward slightly from the waist.”

Etiquette

And from the same source:

Bows can be generally divided into three main types: informal, formal, and very formal. Informal bows are made at about a fifteen degree angle　or just tilt over one’s head to the front, and more formal bows at about thirty degrees. Very formal bows are deeper.

Is it expressing formality, or inferiority?

More importantly, who gives a shit? Why is it so important for our president to act like pack leader? Why is this primitive system of superiority and inferiority even relevant to your worldview?

Obama apparently IS inferior to the Emperor. The president is just some measly representative of a population, the Emperor is a descendant from the Gods themselves.

The Japanese seem to give shit. I think they probably didn’t make a big deal about it because it was an American screwing it up, if indeed we agree he screwed it up. As @dalepetrie and others have said it is about local custom, so none of us have the official answer on what do the locals do in this situation? What @ragingloli brings up is interesting, so does the Japenese President (or is it Prime Minster) bow deeply to the Emporer?

@JLeslie I think this is a good question….as I said, Obama should have been instructed on how to bow to create the idea of equality, not of either inferiority or superiority. If a Japanese ambassador come over here and made a relatively minor gaff, we’d blow it off too! But Fox news would make a big deal out of it saying “Look what Obama screwed up now!”

OR, for all we know, since we American’s aren’t all that familiar with the intricacies of the custom, maybe he did just exactly right, which is why the Japanese didn’t have a thing to say about it.

(haven’t read the above)

I think it is a non-issue. He is following respect guidelines for another culture. That is respectful and I commend him for it. To follow arbitrary guidelines set by predecessors that they won’t bow for pride’s sake or any other reason simply makes no sense to me whatsoever.

In fact when this issue came up the other day on the tele I was in the room with someone from a culture who does bow. He agreed completely that it is a simple act of respect and only signifies more power etc.. and not less.

@Val123 I agree with you. I am not so stuck on my opinion that I am not willing to change it. I just think we need a Japanese person who knows more about Japenese protocol to set us all straight.

@JLeslie
http://www3.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Japanese+Emperor+Akihito+Turns+75+YBw00kNaaY_l.jpg
the PM does.

@ragingloli Now that moves my opinion on the matter. Thank you for bringing that into the argument.

Dang man! They cut his head off!!! He musta done it wrong the first time…. :( Glad Obama got it right.

In all seriousness @ragingloli Thank you. Yes, there are extreme nuances in the custom that we aren’t aware of. Notice that the seated people simply nod their head, while the visitor bows deeply. Doesn’t that tell us that the seated ones are of a higher rank?

@Val123
Or just old. And how far down could you bow at that age, sitting, with a table in front of you?

@ragingloli If you’re in practice, you could. Just like you can still walk when you’re 70, because your walking muscles are still in shape.

I’m saying, if the guy standing was a superior, then the people at the table would stand and bow, not just nod their heads. Actually, if the guy standing was a superior, the people at the table would be approaching HIM, not the other way around.

Here is another thing. The Japanese Emperor does not have any real political power. Like the German President, his position is merely ceremonial, the true power lies with the Prime Minister, so in actuality, judging from political power, the Prime Minister is the Emperor’s superior, so I would guess that the bow is a traditional gesture. Furthermore, Obama, in his standing of rank, is equal to the Prime Minister, so if he bowed higher to the Emperor than the Prime Minister does, It would mean that he considers himself superior to the Prime Minister, thus insulting Japan. So I think it was appropriate that his bow to the Emperor was matching the bow of the Prime Minister.

@ragingloli Oh! It matched it? Ok! That’s a very important piece of the puzzle! Then Obama was spot on, end of discussion for me!

@Val123
It looks like that to me.

I haven’t seen anything on it….do you have a pic?

http://tjic.com/archive/obama_bow_japan.jpg

Now what I have to add is, if you bow to someone, don’t shake hands. You either bow, or shake hands, not both at the same time. That’s just ridiculous. (at least not that far down. just looks silly)

True that. And the bows don’t look equal. Oh well. If Bush did it, he’d probably fall over!

Or vomit on the Emperor’s shoes.

Yip!! LOL!

Oddly enough, this article is also from Fox News. It indicates that while there is a form of presidential protocol, presidents frequently alter bits of it to create new traditions. In addition, since 1928 there has been an Office of Protocol, with a Chief of Protocol to advise the president of what and how to do things.

“Protocol is diplomacy,” said Nancy Brinker, President George W. Bush’s former chief of protocol. “It’s about ceremony and custom and making sure the president and his office are represented properly as he travels the world.”

Thus, if Obama did something “wrong” it quite possibly was based on poor advice from the Office of Protocol. However, other presidents have violated protocol and there have been few if any ramifications.

The Office of Protocol says the bow was not a gaffe, that it was a sign of respect. As I said before, presidents have done worse (sometimes much worse) but war has not broken out.

Obama is like 100 ft tall. He probably has to stoop just to shake hands. He has to bow deeper to get his head even with anyone else’s.

This is fuckin’ stupid. Still no health care, still no gay rights, still a war. This whole story is distraction. He could wash someone’s feet with his hair and I still wouldn’t care.

@Darwin Thank you for that excellent perspective! It’s really ridiculous that when Obama makes some small change from expected behavior that all the Obama haters go “SEE!! SEE!!!” Like no one else in history has made human error (or, in this case, I don’t think it was an error.)

I wish the Dems would come out and defend Obama. Give specific information on why he followed that particular protocol if the right wing comes after him. I fault the Dems for not having good responses to much of the crap that is put out there by the Republicans. When they go after lines in the health care bill, they should pull lines out of private insurers that are probably exactly the same. Democrats in “charge” seem to many times to choose not to respond or to respond by saying the republicans are talking about bullshit, instead of giving a comprehensive answer.

@JLeslie… Something to think about…

But so often the Republicans really are talking bullshit.

@Darwin true.

Better to bow out of respect than because you are ducking shoes!

@janbb ROFL!!

HEY!!!!

Still not about superior/inferior. Nope. Never was, never will be.

If the Democrats in charge choose to rise above petty squabbling by not responsing, more power to them.

@abowwwwwww It CAN be!!

From Wikipedia: “Bowing is considered extremely important in Japan, so much so that, although children normally begin learning how to bow from a very young age, companies commonly provide training to their employees in how to execute bows correctly.
Generally speaking, an inferior bows longer, more deeply and more frequently than a superior. A superior addressing an inferior will generally only nod the head slightly, while some superiors may not bow at all and an inferior will bend forward slightly from the waist.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etiquette_in_Japan#Bowing

@Val123 Keep reading, 2 paragraphs up, same article.

@Qingu pretty much cleaned up everything I would have said, and then some.

That said, I know enough about @JLeslie to know that her intent wasn’t to initiate some sort of Obama-hate, or something. I do believe that the whole subservient, diplomatic chest-pounding is a bunch of horseshit – always is and always has been.

Think like an animal, act like an animal.

I used to live in Japan and I don’t remember anyone freaking out about bowing. Although, I was like 10 so I guess I wouldn’t care.

@avvooooooo I think Obama bowed the ‘Merican way. As you read, the bows can be exceedingly complicated, and I doubt Obama had it just right! ......Anyway, I read respect, not “inferiority”...

How do you feel about the Emperor of Japan shaking your hand? Some cultures don’t use the hand shaking custom.

I reminds me of the Track & Field II video game, when you chose teakwondo and both contestants bow before the competition begin. Stereotype East Asia.