What would the modern world look like if there were no such thing as Christianity?

No Mont St. Michel. or Chartres.

Far too different, for us to be able to make any meaningful prediction now.

Star Trek.

There would be more sex, less therapy and fewer tears.

@ragingloli: I knew it!

@ragingloli: by the 24th century, essentially everyone believes in the Klingon deities. they just downplayed it on t.v.

Obviously it would look like this.

I had a conversation about this not too long ago.
I’m not Christian or religious by any means. Personally, I believe religious people are delusional in their beliefs (but not necessarily in their morals). But, even thinking that, I think that the world could be a far worse place without religion.

I think that either another religion would take hold just as strong as Christianity did or else we we would never get as far as we have. I think that the (sometimes counterproductive) unity did alot to help unite Europe and the early U.S. to get us here.

A Less-Warful World.

I think Christianity was a natural part of humankind’s cultural evolution, so rather than think about what the world would be like if Christianity had never existed, I prefer to think about what it will be like when we have evolved beyond religion. That world is indeed more peaceful, more honest, more ethical, far more technologically advanced, and has less hate. It’s a beautiful world indeed. And yes @ragingloli, a good bit like Star Trek.

Christianity or any religion for that matter. Was and is a necessary “evil”.

@ChazMaz I accept was, I don’t accept is.

“Is” is an apparent.
Since it still IS a part of society, that still needs to feel an attachment with a higher authority. :-)

The two most recent attempts at “atheistic” societies ended up being totally religious anyway. The personality cult in the Soviet Empire and the Nazi mythology of Germany.

It must be noted, however, that, even though we eventually stopped their rampage, they did do really rather well. Even better than Napoleon.

The whole nationalistic mythology and the bastardized version of their pre-Christian “cultural grandeur” worked very well.

@ChazMaz Touché

@The_Idler: and Kim Il Jung (sp.? but an appropriate misspelling, if so) (more-or-less literally worshipped as a god, along with his dad), Mao, etc.

@The_Idler sorry man, but someone has been feeding you a load of nonsense.

the nazi soldiers all used to have ’‘got mit uns’’ on their belt buckles, meaning ’‘god with us’’ and hitler used to make references to god all the time, like the time he claimed that the reason an explosion did not kill him in an assassination attempt was because of devine intervention.

as for stalin and the soviet union, while stalin him self was an atheist he used to use religion to control the masses all the time.

nazi germany was a corruption of christianity, rather like what al qaeda has done with the muslim faith, and soviet russia was a product of communism. neither of the two where ’‘attempts at an atheistic society’’.

if you want an idea what an atheist society would look like, i suggest you look at switzerland, where only a marginal amount of people believe in a god.

furthermore, there are 1000’s of religions, so a non-christian world does not imply a secular world by default.

as for answering the question of this thread, the world would be more or less the same as it is now, history would be a little different, but all those who believe in a god would simply be following some other faith, possibly a totally new one that we dont have in our world.

Another religion would have replaced it. For example, let’s take the Nation of Fluther. Apart from some embattled hangers-on to traditional religions, and some jellies who keep quietl, the theocracy here is a strident, bullying, ignorant form of faux atheism.
Even we, in our infinite American cleverness and pomposity, need a way to handle the fear of death and the need of communities to impose rules on their members – rules which are attributed to some Big Guy that no one can fight. We just call it Reason. Ha.

@poisonedantidote I don’t know so much about Soviet Russia, but I was pretty sure that Hitler hated the Christian establishment. F/E though, if you say Hitler used Christianity despite his hatred for it, he was smart like that.

But my point really was that the nominally non-religious societies ended up using religious techniques to control their populations anyway, which is supported by what you say, also.

@The_Idler well, there have been people who have speculated that hitler had even begun to see him self as a god. when someone is that insane thought its really hard to tell. i guess only he really knew.

hitler was a power hungry narcissist, so i think regardless of his own beliefs he would hate hated any form of government or power other than his own. he probably took it as quite a threat.

@ragingloli +1

If there wasn’t Christianity there’d be something else. Whether Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, or something entirely different. The masses need something to believe in. Sometimes it’s good, sometimes bad, or a mixture of both. While in my opinion true Christianity does teach respectable morals and values; the bad apples that have twisted and interpreted scripture according to their skewed views have caused irreparable harm in the name of their faith.

@susanc so you are saying that the atheist assuages their fear of Death, by having faith in the Reason, which suggests that when they die, their consciousness will end and their body will rot?

doesn’t sound like a very appealing story, which suggests people believe that, because it is reasonable, rather than because it handles a fear of Death.

“how can I cope with Death? oh i’ll just assume its the end of everything and my life is worthless. that makes me feel better!”

The world would probably be a lot more Muslim, or something even more oppressive. Western civilization may well have been lost for good after the fall of the Roman empire, and we would either exist under a caliphate, or dozens of small countries with nothing in common. Odds are good that there would be less in the way of philanthropy, which wasn’t very big with the Romans or their contemporaries in Northern Europe
There would be no United States of America (or nothing like the one we recognize), which started off as a colony of Puritans that couldn’t be left in peace by the Church of England.
WIthout the monasteries to preserve things like writing, widespread literacy would be behind schedule. We may not have ever developed the University.
There would be a lot more agriculture, and a lot less industry. One would likely find slaves in both.
The World Wars would likely have been very different, if they happened at all; I expect that the main participants would be from Asia and possibly Africa instead of Europe. There would be more of the petty “England vs. France” kind of wars as fiefdoms bickered over things like trade routes and tariffs.

Really, the world as it spans throughout some two thousand years of history is far too complicated to nail down in a single thread.

Why no Christianity in particular?

just because the religious establishment provided the platform for the scholars and research that paved the way to our modern world, doesn’t mean that without religion, we couldn’t have done it any better.

@The_Idler this is re: your post before last… this is not an attempt at ‘pownage’ by the way, this is just my point of view to try and give you the opportunity to look at death from the point of view of a life long positive atheist.

so… im going to die, that much is certain. lets look at some of the possibilities.

1— my life is meaningless, there is no god, there is no afterlife, and all that awaits me after death is oblivion.

2— there is a god, and an afterlife. and after this life i will have eternal life in some kind of heaven or hell.

3— there is or is not a god, and after this life i will be born again as another human and live out another reincarnated life.

if it turns out that number 1 is true, then my time here on this planet is infinitely valuable, and while all that awaits me is oblivion, thats as far as it goes.

if it turns out that number 2 is true, then after i die and go through all the fear of being turned to nothing, i now have eternity to deal with. after 50 thousand million years, i would not even be half way thought my eternal afterlife. there will come a point when i will wish for oblivion, a time when i know all that can be known, a time when i have done everything and nothing is exciting or interesting anymore, i will be bored, i will wish for death, and yet it will not come, in my mind. the ultimate torture. once i reach this point, it would not matter if i am spending eternity in heaven or hell, it will still be just as horrible.

if it turns out that number 3 is true, then my mother who i love very much is not my mother, she is just a host for my body in this life, my real mother died thousands of years ago in my first life, and all the family, all the people i know love and care about will never be anything more than a host for my parasitic existence. an existence where every time i reach an advanced age and accumulate a certain amount of knowledge, i die and it is taken from me. and how long does this go on for? for eternity? i hope not. and if there is some final heaven or reward for living say 1000 lives, is oblivion still what awaits me, or will i be sent to some nirvana, some eternal afterlife where what awaits me is all the horror described in number 2.

personally, i think oblivion and death give my life meaning and urgency, it makes my time here precious, it allows me to love my mother and father for they are not just my temporary hosts, they are my life givers, the people who gave me the precious gift of a limited period of time to exist. once im dead, i can rest in peace, no worries or fear of eternal punishment or eternal boredom, no stealing of my knowledge and personality. i simply live out my life and die.

personally, i find option 1 to be quite comforting. sure i will no longer exist one day, but at least thats only as bad as it gets. it can always be worse, and i have reassurance that it will not be worse. its only as bad as i think it is.

and if you are willing to incorporate some nihilism and humor in to the death equation, death actually becomes something quite exciting and interesting. in a sick sense, almost something to look forwards to.

There would be a lot more great kosher delis in New York City still.

I do love a GOOD kosher deli.

Consider that without the influence of Christianity, such forces as would be left could well sunder the Jewish identity and culture. You’d have at best a 50% chance at your Kosher delis.

@Nullo dang!

And you would have an even slimmer chance – I’d wildly guess 5%-10% – at the existence of a New York to put kosher delis into.

@susanc I assure you that my atheism isn’t faux, and it isn’t a theocracy. Reason is not an authority that is mindlessly worshiped and claimed to have some divine authority by which it hands down rules. Reason is the set of rules, devised by man, and having their efficacy as their only source of authority. How I abhor attempts to claim that atheism is somehow a religion or has anything at all in common with religion. I assure you it does not.

@The Idler: @poisonedantidote answered the question you asked me, I guess. @Snarp:
I so disagree with you. Sorry. Any one thing a person believes is The Answer functions very like a religion. Better to have several legs to your chair than only one.

@Nullo: did you know that Islam owes a great deal to Christianity (and gracefully admits it), just as Christianity owes almost everything to Judaism? So it makes me smile to imagine that had Christianity not occurred, we would be immersed in a world of mullahs.

Though I know you meant it as an example. I do take your point.

@susanc The answer to what? Atheism isn’t an answer, it’s a lack of belief in a deity, that’s it. There’s nothing religious about it.

You aren’t reading what I’m writing.
I have to go to town now but I’ll love pursuing this later.
hugs and kisses, auntie S.

@susanc
I had my suspicions about that. Thank you. Perhaps something similar might have sprung up?

Considering the rapid spread of Islam by the sword, in the absence of Christianity as a uniting force capable of stemming the tide, all of Europe would be Muslim.

@Snarp You are my hero.

@davidk: islam had antecedents.

christianity came some centuries before islam and both come from judaism. the Koran makes (sometimes critical) reference to the judaism and christianity of Muhammed’s time.

I’m gonna say that it would probably suck.

@Ria777
Are you suggesting that Islam could not exist without Christianity as an antecedent?
If so, I must respectfully disagree that Christianity is a critical antecedent to Islam. Judaism, is a different matter. Your argument holds in that case.

@poisonedantidote
I don’t think the ‘boredom of eternal life’ really factors into an atheist’s belief that they will die and be dead.

I think most atheists believe that there is nothing after death,
because the alternatives you presented are totally ridiculous,
rather than as a crutch, because they can’t deal with the prospect of a boring eternal life.

I mean, sure, life’s boundaries give meaning and significance to its contents.
But to suggest that most Physicalists are drawn to that point of view, because they wouldn’t want to live forever, because it would boring, is ridiculous.

Physicalists may find beauty in the idea that all life is just a tiny flicker in the course of the Universe’s history, but they did not arrive at this conclusion, in order to comfort themselves.
Perhaps some did, but they were the poorer intellectuals, to be so severely influenced in their world-view simply by a fear of being bored.

@The_Idler im not quite sure what you are saying here, boredom of eternal life has nothing to do with why im an atheist, or even why i believe when im dead im dead. the comfort in death is simply a ’‘perk of the job’’ so to speak.

the alternatives i present, heaven, hell and reincarnation are indeed ridiculous to me too, thats why i dont believe in a heaven or hell or other form of afterlife. but millions of other people do believe that, and thats why i presented them as the alternatives. there are many more alternatives than the three i presented, but those seem to be the most common ones.

so yea, i am not claiming that people are drawn to that point of view because the alternatives are ridiculous or scary, i was simply stating my opinion of what said alternatives would be like.

the reason i believe i will be dead and gone forever after i die is because all the evidence i have seen so far suggests to me that i am physical being who’s thoughts are produced by the brain. and when the chemistry in my brain fails, so will i. i cant see how i a physical being will continue to exist after death.

so yea, im not saying death is comforting and thats why i believe im gone for good after i die, im simply saying consider the alternatives. i know i would prefer to just die than to live out any kind of eternal afterlife. the idea of heaven or hell or any other kind of eternal existence is to me, some what like ’‘the eternity in a box punishment’’ in the movie interview with a vampire. just pure terror.

i guess my main point here is, fear of death is nothing to worry about when compared to fear of eternal life. be it lived out in paradise or torment.

There would be no Easter Bunny or Mistletoe Kisses!!!

Islam was quite tolerant and bred a lot of scientific progress… That is until Christianity decided to do the crusades. You reap what you sow, I guess.

I heard once that the first round of writings that became the Koran were rather benign, and that the second round were a good deal more warlike, due to Mohammed’s personal circumstances.

We can’t retroactively change over 2,000 years of history and then make intelligent prognostications of the consequences of such a change.

We can’t make good guesses about the impact much smaller retroactive changes over shorter periods of time with any reliability.

@ragingloli
Sorry but the bit about Islam being tolerant is just PC bullshit.

@kidkosmik Really? I tend to assume sarcasm is involved when someone says something that nice about me online, but otherwise, thanks!

We might find this dream in a novel: “I have a dream that one day, down in Alabama, with its vicious racists, one day right there in Alabama little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers. I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, and every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight; and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed and all flesh shall see it together.

This is our hope, and this is the faith that I go back to the South with. With this faith, we will be able to hew out of the mountain of despair a stone of hope. With this faith, we will be able to transform the jangling discords of our nation into a beautiful symphony of brotherhood. With this faith, we will be able to work together, to pray together, to struggle together, to go to jail together, to stand up for freedom together, knowing that we will be free one day.”

@Snarp No sarcasm. ^^

@mattbrowne Source?

@janbb – I thought everyone would recognize it. It’s part of Martin Luther King’s famous speech in Washington. In the “no Christianity scenario” he would not be a minister, therefore I invented the novel.

@mattbrowne You threw me off with the subtlety about the novel. I sure thought it was MLK but didn’t get the fiction part. Thanks for elucidating.