Should things be printed in Spanish AND English?

More to the point, there’s no requirement that forms be printed in English.

My vote goes to all forms being printed in Esperanto

(To explain further—there’s no official language of the USA, english is spoken by 80+% of the population, so you see it most often)

No requirement, but the US throughout it’s history has been an english speaking nation. English has become a precedent in our nation evein if it is not offical. We are giving up our culture

Why did we not do this for the Italians, Germans, or any other immigrant group? Is this the result of our new “politically correct” way of thinking?

European countries print things in 4 and 5 languages. I think it is a good idea for information to be printed in 2 or more languages.

@FlutherNOW What heritage are you? My family in part immigrated from various parts of Europe, only 25% of my ancestors spoke English when they showed up.

I bought a flatscreen tv the other day and the instructions came with four different languages. the info books almost weighed as much as the television. the books included Chinese, Spanish, Korean and English. i am actually putting these books to use to learn a different language, sorta. i compare an English word to a Spanish word and now i know what that word means. i agree with you all the way, but since the books are there, i might as well put them to use.

The private sector is different. The private sector does so because there stuff sells. The government has no product to sell.

Im German decent btw.

EDIT: I agree pennington. I do the same. I think languages are good. The more you know, the less ignorant you are. I just think the government shoulden’t do it out of principal.

EDIT2: @JLeslie. That is Europe lol. The European mentality is “anything goes”

If Spanish speakers are the second largest ethnic group, ( and they are of different ethnicities aren’t they) what is the largest? The Caucasian immigrants were from many cultures and more than one ethnicity. They all needed to learn English to be able to become citizens and become Americans.
I agree that English should be the official language of the United States.

We are a nation of immigrants. I understand it pisses some people off to see things in multiple languages, but why make things harder for people who are already struggling?

@FlutherNOW Our culture is to be a melting pot, a nation of immigrants. I believe everyone should learn English if they live in our country, with some exceptions. I think if you are much older when you immigrate there should be some understanding. I think if you are an adult it can take some time to get up to speed, and if you have young children, it is nice to be able to understand things, to help your children. Good to have safety information in several languages. I speak Spanish well, but if I moved to Mexico I would be grateful if many things were in two languages, not so I can slack off, but because it would simply be helpful.

When it comes to being fluent in English, both written and conversational, my concern is the children. Their education should require and provide strong English speaking education, so they can take advantage of every opportunity our country has to offer them, and I do think a common language is better for the country. When the Italians came to our shores many of the adults, especially the women, did not learn English well, but their children born here became Americanized and all spoke English, like all of the other kids. This has happened throughout the history of our country, just different countries coming over depending on the decade.

Things should be printed in the language of the target audience. If a publisher wants to reach a broader audience, then more languages are justified. Here in Australia English is the national language, but most Asian languages are common because we have such a multicultural society. There are parts of the cities where someone like myself who can only speak English cannot read a word. It is all about meeting the needs of the population.

@FlutherNOW My European example is to show you that even though most Germans born after 1970 can speak English, they ALL still speak German.

Being bilingual will make us stronger not weaker as a nation.

Well, considering you Americans cant even speak English, why not print it in Spannish too.

@TheJoker LMAO!

@filmfann How can you understand that?

@FlutherNOW I don’t see how making things easier for a lot of people is a bad thing.

Only if the forms are also available in Chinese, Korean, French, Swahili, Hindi, Italian, Russian, Polish, German, Japanese… otherwise it is discrimination.

What made our country strong & progressive is that immigrants came here & became unified by learning the common language, English, and uniting to work together. It was part of their pride of being in their new country. Their children were brought up to learn English as well as their original language so that they could get a better education and better employment opportunities. That was part of their hope for a better life for themselves and their children & grandchildren.

Besides being a waste of money, having everything (not just “important” forms but even TV programs & store signs & Avon brochures & ballgame programs, etc.) makes it harder for these immigrants in the long run because, as you learn in any good foreign language program, IMMERSION is the fastest way to learn a language.

the MIA?

@Facade

Easiness kills any incentive to learn English (or worse, Assimilate all together). Have you guys lived in a city like Miami? You could live almost perfectly in that city without knowing a lick of English. In fact if I want a “working class” job there, my chances increase exponentially if I known Spanish. In some places I worked, Spanish was spoken in the workplace and English only to me. Why? Because we cater.

“But there oppurtunities of getting a good job will be limited if they don’t chose to learn English.” – That is true, but most people there would be happy working retail. If they aren’t then they learn english.

@Brave. GA. You summed up my views perfectly. Everyone Lurve him

@Facade How can I understand people are unhappy about having to press 1 to get english? People I know send me emails about it all the time. I think being unhappy about making it easier for hispanics to deal with banks on the phone, or understand a government document is borderline racist.

@eponymoushipster Miami.

@FlutherNOW Why should they be made to learn English? Learning simple words or phrases is helpful, but going so far as to not print anything in Spanish is unreasonable.

@filmfann Wow. Racist and lazy. It’s not difficult to press one. People who don’t speak English live here. Get over it. (spoken to them, not you)

Miami is just accomodating to their population, you won’t see that in Washington or Oregon. You may just have to move if it’s such a problem. You have to realize where you are geographically, you live next to a bunch of underdeveloped countries, which have easy access to a developed country.

@Facade after I wrote that, I realized it could be easily misunderstood, and clarified it.

@Blackberry oh, Miami. In that case, i think everything there should be written in simple language, with large block letters. Spanish, English, whatever.

@Facade

“Why should they be made to learn English? ”

Umm.. because they came to America a traditionally English speaking nation. Isin’t that the point of this discussion

@FlutherNOW well, if people are speaking Spanish at work while you are present that is simply rude, and probably should not be allowed, depending where you work. When I worked at Bloomingdale’s in southeast FL we were only allowed to use English while on the sales floor unless we were directly working with a custumer who preferred a different language.

@Blackberry

Yes, I know. Thats another thing I wondered. Why did we become so accomidating? Is it a way to get votes?

@JLeslie
Tire Kingdom lol.

@FlutherNOW Just wondering, how many Hispanic, Spanish speaking adults, who were born in the US do you know who cannot communicate in English?

America does not have an official language. Who the hell cares about a “traditional” language?

If we’re talking about tradition, shouldn’t we all be trying to speak with a British accent? Should people in Louisiana, or Detroit, speak just French? How about we all learn Native American lanaguages? That’d be way traditional. Let’s learn Najavo.

@FlutherNOW I hope our country never has a dire situation where you have to leave and go to another country that doesn’t speak English. Maybe put yourself in the immigrants shoes for a second.

@FlutherNOW yeah it could be so, I would assume a politician would want to cater to the biggest majorities.

Personally, a few (parents of my friends)

In my daily errands (in Miami), a decent amount, more than I knew personally. Sales clerks, gas station owners, people responding to my ads, and just random people on the street have said “No English”

——REMOVED THE LAST ONE due to my prediction of racial remarks getting thrown around being true——-

@FlutherNOW Maybe you should just move to Montana or something. I doubt anyone there would bother you with a language that isn’t English.

I’m not a fucking racist honkey piece of shit. I just wanted to know the reasons and discuss it damn.

@JLeslie, yes If I moved to another country for an extended period of time, I would learn the language and partially-assimilate. Until then it would suck royally. Guess I will just have to live confused for some time until I get it….... I expect no catering.

@FlutherNOW
So what if they choose to speak a certain language? You choose to be ignorant and only know one. If you were in Europe, you’d practically have to know 3 or 4, in some measure. It’s called laziness. get over it.

@FlutherNOW The parents of your friends were born in America and don’t speak English?

In Miami plenty of people don’t speak English, true. Walk into a restaurant in Coral Gables and they many times will ask you how many in Spanish first, but then when they see you speak English only will switch. There are some very small businesses that have almost every employee Spanish speaking only. Many billboards on the streets in areas of Miami are written in Spanish and say “we speak English” in a corner. I know. I lived there. I also understand why it is frustrating to you, I don’t think you are a racist piece of shit.

@JLeslie What is so frustrating about it?

If it’s displayed in both a language you know and a language you’re learning, it’s easier to learn the new language. That’s part of the way I learned English: watching movies in English with Dutch subtitles – subconsciously I started to connect the English words to the Dutch subtitles.

Anyway, I didn’t know where Miami is, but looking at the map I see it’s very much in the south of the US. In other words, there’s more interaction with the neighbouring countries south of the US, where other languages are prevalent. Nothing wrong with accommodating to that, only makes interaction easier and is thus better for the economy, earning back the money spent on it (it’s really not that much) and then some.

Just like how Flemish people speak Dutch while Wallonians speak French, and people in the East of Belgium also speak German. It’s only of added value – not only does this make it easier for Germans to, say, do their shopping there, but also the Belgians living there speak another language. Another, as in, not as a replacement for their native language.

This isn’t the first time Americans have printed something in a different language. The first newspaper announcement of the adoption of the Declaration of Independence was published in German.
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003389.html

Who said this?
“aliens… will never adopt our language or customs, any more than they can acquire our complexion”
It was Benjamin Franklin, in 1751. He was talking about Germans.
http://158.130.17.5/%7Emyl/languagelog/archives/000897.html

@Facade when you are constantly in a situation where you cannot understand what people are saying it is frustrating. Not the same as being at the mall and a couple standing next to you speaks another language. When it is at work, and all of your neighbors, and they do not use English when you are present it is not congenial. In cities where it is very diverse, English is the common language and it is a non-issue. In NYC you might have in your workplace people who are Indian, Palestinian, and Puerto Rican. They all are biligual, but at work they all are using English, because the Indian guy doesn’t understand Arabic or Spanish. When you are in Miami it is very much like you are in a Spanish Speaking country.

I don’t know what the big deal is about printing things in Spanish and English. English is not the official language of the United States, and I hope it never becomes that. America (as a whole, not talking about individuals) shows enough intolerance for anything “non-American” already. We should start becoming like the rest of the world. In Europe, almost everyone learns a second language.

Instead of arguing why immigrants don’t learn “our” language, why don’t we try to learn theirs? Why isn’t Spanish a required part of the school curriculum? The Hispanic influence in this country is huge and we can’t just pretend they’re unimportant because of our “we were here first” philosophy. We stole about half of Mexico from the Mexicans. Although it is important for everyone to have some grasp of English just to get around (since it is the most common language), but giving Spanish speakers the cold-turkey treatment seems unfair.

Many Americans travel to other countries without an inkling of how to read or speak their language, and think that’s perfectly fine. That attitude is what makes other countries hate us so much. If we want this country to be a good world power, we should do our part to become more worldly instead of imposing our culture and views on everyone else.

Honestly, I don’t mind it if I don’t have to pay, because i’m not the one whos going to be using it. If they feel like paying, then go ahead.

I agree with @ParaParaYukiko that our schools should be better at teaching a second language. We need to start in elementary school, and it will be no big deal. My husband took English class every year from Kindergarten in Mexico CIty. I would not insist on Spanish, some might prefer to learn Chinese or some other language, but a minimum amount of Spanish for all students does make sense. Just imagine if everyone simply learned Spanish and English as a young child, it would be a non-issue.

@ParaParaYukiko

You have the typical liberal progressive point of view….

Lets all just be globalized and love one and other groovy man
Like I said earlier, In Europe “anything goes”

If I can sell something to the “Spanish community” or people who mostly know only Spanish in the USA and make some money of it then why the hell not print in both Spanish and English ;)

One thing that pops into my head is People magazine in spanish, sold here in the USA or least FL I know of…

Why? Because you can make extra dollar from it simple as that.

Trust me when I say it, we would not “cater” to someone if there was not a something in it for the person who was “catering” in the first place.Money,possible extending of demographics to get people into there product.Ya know that kind of thing….

@FlutherNOW And what’s wrong with that? Are you trying to insult me by calling me a “typical liberal progressive type”? Globalization is different from making one “world culture.” We can maintain our own culture without trying to convert the rest of the world to Americans. That’s boring and destroys the individual perks of each culture. We need that cultural diversity to improve our own culture.

The “typical conservative point of view,” as I understand it, is antiquated and totally inappropriate for modern times. I’m not saying we should have an “anything goes” POV and all be hippies. We just can’t hide in a little sheltered cultural hole and make all who try to enter conform to those views. Understanding other cultures is the best, and really, the only successful way to create a cooperative system between countries.

@FlutherNOW I disagree that this is a liberal progressive point of view. It is acknowledging the world is small and the the US is multicultural. Ironically the older Cubans you are annoyed with are conservative Republicans. I think you should move. Come live by me here in Memphis TN, a whole bunch of people will agree with you. Or, go to a more progressive, diverse place, and that will be better too. The problem is that where you live you are becoming the minority, when there is a homogenous majority (not really homogenous, they are from more countries than Cuba, but homogenous in the sense that they are Spanish speaking) and you find it uncomfortable. In large progressive cities you are just one of the many.

@FlutherNOW Yes, the keyword is ‘progress’. Without progress, we would be stuck in the 50s.

I don’t think immigrants should be forced to learn the language, but I don’t think they should be accommodated, to the inconvenience of others, if they choose not to.

So, if you don’t want to learn the language, that’s fine with me, but don’t expect me to be able to help you out ever, and don’t expect to be able to get a good job, and don’t expect everyone else to make special arrangements, because you couldn’t be bothered to learn the language of a nation that you chose to come to.

I think tourists who make no effort with the local language are rude enough, but immigrants who do so are just selfish dickheads.
It basically says, “I came to your country to take advantage of the society that your ancestors built, but I don’t give a shit about them or integrating with your society. I’m just here for the money.”

I think it’s interesting that the stuff you’re taking issue with has the kind of language that is obscure and probably not something that people would learn when learning the language. Think about some government forms. They’re incredibly hard to understand for people who are fluent in English. Do you want to make a non-native speaker try and decipher what they mean? As for the kinds of things that are not difficult to understand in either language if you speak it fluently, what about the people who are learning? What do you say to a person who is learning English but still has a lot of difficulty understanding? “Sorry, but if you can’t understand me after being in this country a whole month, then screw you.” English is a very difficult language with one of the largest vocabularies in the world. Spanish, by comparison, is much easier.

How do you feel about other countries printing everything in their native language and English? Isn’t that catering to English speakers? Is that okay, or should that be abolished as well?

@Blackberry: Virtual high five for that awesome retort.

They are written in Spanish because it is their country too.

In the little subway at SeaTac, announcements are made in four languages, one of which (if memory holds) is Thai. Why not?

(Spanish).

It should be handled locally, whatever languages are spoken in the area. The Canadians are stuck with bilingual (Enlish/ Francaise) even in provinces where very few speak French. Regional rationality is better IMO.

@stranger_in_a_strange_land I sort of disagree. I would not want a law saying everything must be printed in two languages, but I would not mind a minimal federal requirement that schools teach a second languag beginning in elementary school. The same way I think of an immigrant child not having all of the opportunities if they do not learn English, I think parts of our country that ignore the advantage of speaking a second language limits those kids from the multinational environment seen in so many businesses today.

@JLeslie I totally agree with you on the teaching aspect. I was raised trilingual. My comments were about government forms, street signs, etc. Most US schools offer languages far too late for children to really absorb then well. Sorry about the misunderstanding.:^)

Actually, in the USA, it is totally different.

Since, within the past couple of centuries, you have, through relentless aggressive expansionism, built yourselves a land empire over areas you directly annexed from Spanish-speakers, I think perhaps there should be some leeway.

So Spanish I suppose is an exception, because a significant proportion of your empire was directly stolen from them by the English Americans (USA)...

@stranger_in_a_strange_land Not really a misunderstanding, you were commenting on the original question. We had talked about a few things on the thread, so I was not clear what specifically your comment encompassed. :) Thanks for clarifying.

Anything that starts out like “Now I’m not really a racist.” pretty much means that you are. Sorry. N. Not sorry.

Yeah, in response to the OP,

The Spanish get this treatment, because they aren’t immigrants.
You stole half your country from them.

@The_Idler The OP is in Miami, very few Mexicans there. I’m guessing those Mexicans in Texas who had ancestors who were on the US side of the battle are glad to be here.

Well yeah, but i was just saying why the Spanish language gets special treatment.

Also, I didnt say Mexicans.

aaaand Florida was Spanish (though I know most the spanish speakers there are immigrants from latin america, the point remains).

@The_Idler You said stole half of their country, so assumed you speaking of The Alamo. But, you did say Spanish, I don’t call anyone in Latin America Spanish, unless they are Spanish, so maybe you are referring to explorers like Ponce De Leon and others who came to explore the new world and later settled? I am a little confused now.

Latin America is to Spanish (exc Brazil) as the USA is to English.

They were Spanish/English, and they still speak Spanish/English.

@The_Idler you wrote The Spanish get this treatment, because they aren’t immigrants. Maybe you meant to write Spanish Speaking, and missed writing Speaking? Latin Americans are not Spanish, unless they are of Spanish descent. My Venezuelan friend is Italian. I worked with a Chilean women who is/was German. I would guess that many of the peope who lived in Mexican Texas were actually descended from the indeginous people of Latin America, although I am honestly not very knowledgable about that, possibly many were a mix.

Americans speak English, not American. The Spanish speak Spanish and some countries in Latin America speak Spanish, but that does not make All Latin Americans who speak Spanish Spanish, just like I am not English even though I speak it.

@Blackberry “Without progress we’d be stuck in the 50s”

That’s when America was great!!! We ran the world. So what if we stole the land, we’re America. Britan “stole” land from it’s empire. So did Spain and France during a lot of their colonial days. Most people who live in the USA, Canada, or Latin America are NOT native Americans.

Lol this topic has really gone somewhere since I left and came back.

@JLeslie
Well I said
”...areas you directly annexed from Spanish-speakers…
So Spanish I suppose is an exception, because a significant proportion of your empire was directly stolen from them by the English Americans (USA)...”

so i was talking about Spanish-speakers, then the Spanish language, so when I said “stolen from them”, i thought it would go without saying that I was talking about them speakers of the spanish language.

This thread is about languages, we don’t have to put -speaking on the end every time, because for the purposes of this thread, English and Spanish mean the languages of the conquerors and the conquered (or the citizens and the immigrants, as the case may be).

@FlutherNOW I happen to think America sucked in the 50s…

@The_Idler No. In the Americas Spanish people, Spaniards, are people from Spain or descended from Spain. You cannot call Latin Americans Spanish like people from the country of Spain, we are the new world made up of immigrants of many nations and also the indigenous. A person from Argentina is just that Argentinian, and maybe his family came from Germany or Italy or Spain, etc. Most likely they speak the common language of their country, Spanish, and also German or Italian.

And, The Louisana Purchase http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_ which was a huge territory was bought from the French. We are a big mish mosh of immigrants. That is the thing about the new world, the Americas in general.

I think a common language is important. Language, currency, representation in our federal govenment, these things unite us and make us stronger.

Interestingly:

English is the official language in: Alabama, American Samoa, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Guam, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Massachusetts, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, New Hampshire, New Jersey, North Carolina, North Dakota, the Northern Mariana Islands, Puerto Rico, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, the U.S. Virgin Islands, Utah, Virginia, and Wyoming

Spanish is the official language of Puerto Rico

So Puerto Rico has two official languages?

@JLeslie I don’t know what you mean “No.” Do you think I’m stupid? Do you think I don’t know that stuff? Did you fail to understand that I was talking about the English speaking societies and the Spanish speaking societies?

It was completely obvious, from the fact that, if you assumed I was, then everything I said made sense and was true, and if assumed I wasn’t, then none of it made sense and it was completely historically inaccurate.

So what do you think? A huge coincidence that I know nothing, but was one word away from making sense, or that I missed off the word ”-speaking”…?

Did you really need to ask!?

@JLeslie Yes, with PR Spanish being primary.

@The_Idler I don’t think you are stupid, we would word it differently. I think most Americans would word it differently. That doesn’t make you stupid in my mind, sorry if I was offensive. I was clarifying. You were talking about old battles, well we battled Spanish settlers in Florida, and Mexicans in Texas, plus others, again I was trying to clarify. And, the battles and stealing you speak of have little to do with the language problem the OP speaks of, because he is frustrated with the new immigrants. The land taken in the early 1800’s, well the great great great grandchildren of those people all speak English, many don’t even speak Spanish.

@grumpyfish Interesting. When I did some work in PR many of the people did not speak English well. It actually surprised me. So, I don’t think they enforce learning English, although they might require all legal documents in both languages?

All I meant was that Spanish has special treatment, because a significant proportion of the country was Spanish-speaking, when it was ‘incorporated’. It is an appeasement.

This benefit extends to Spanish-speaking immigrants. Not because of their nationality or ancestry, but just because they also speak Spanish, because they also come from old Spanish lands.

It would be silly to do it, if all the Spanish-speakers were immigrants, but the fact is that a lot of land was incorporated, which was originally the home of Spanish-speakers, so, rather than give the impression that the government wants to eradicate the original culture, they portray it as a constituent part of American culture. Part of this is preservation of language. This just happens to benefit spanish-speaking immigrants more than the descendants of the Mexican Californians, for example, who almost all speak English now.

But that’s why things are in English and in Spanish, in some parts of the USA.

@The_Idler I see your point. I think I disagree with it, but maybe many would agree.

We do incorporate all of the cultures, but Americans also expect people to become Americanized. And, I guess I see maintaining ones culture and language as a responsibility of the person themselves, not the government, although of course we do have government monuments, museums, and historically protected property, regarding the many different cultures in our country.

Yes, well it is expected of every other language, but because the USA forced themselves upon many Spanish-speakers, it would seem unreasonable to not make allowances.

The knock-on effect is that, apparently, now many Spanish-speakers, with nothing to do with the lands annexed by the USA, are moving to the USA and expecting to be accommodated just because they speak Spanish.

@FlutherNOW Oh, yes, it was just wonderful when a woman’s place was considered to be in the kitchen and at home doting on hubby all the time. Fantastic.

I don’t think America was any “great”-er during that era than during any other.

@The_Idler I have to admit I have never though of it that way. I wonder if Spanish speaking people do? I doubt it. My husband and his family don’t feel like the language is a sticking point, they focus more on reasonable immigration laws and being treated fairly. Native Americans are the only ones I have an empathy for in this type of discussion, everyone else was raping and pilaging and conquering. In the end, if there is karma, you get what you give I guess.

Yeah, obviously the irony is that both the English-speakers and the Spanish-speakers relentlessly marginalised and demonised the real natives until their cultures and societies fell apart and died.

I feel that everybody ought to at least try to learn the local language, official or no.

I am not a fan of different languages in public domain. Can’t really complain about the commercial sector because they’re trying to make a buck off anyone. In the United States we have a massive number of immigrants from Spanish speaking countries (predominantly Mexico). It bothers me because like @The_Idler said they expect to be accommodated because they speak Spanish. This in turn promotes complacency because why should they learn English if there is someone to translate for you? Or papers with Spanish print on the back? I agree with the OP:

”I feel one should either A) Learn English or B) Find someone who knows it to help you fill out all your government forms. or C) Leave”

One of my mother’s friends has been in the United States for over 20 years and doesn’t know a lick of English. Unacceptable.

@FlutherNOW I might have missed your answer to my question above, I apologize if I did. I am still curious about your friends parents who don’t speak English, you are saying his parents were born in America and don’t speak English?

@FlutherNOW And Germany was great in 1943…

So, we have now arrived at this point…

@JLeslie: I’m still waiting for him to answer my questions about things being in English in other countries…

@JLeslie
Yes. Born and raised.

Some of them were born in there home country. They are less than 50 years old and have been here for 20+ years. Born here or not they should have laerned by now.

@KatawaGrey
English is the international language (due to the British empire), so I can understand WHY they do it (MOST educated people speak fluent english).. What they want to do is there business. Like I said earlier, Europe just likes to cater to people.

Since when do we have to make it EASY? If they are filling out forms for government hand outs (it’s the truth), why should it be EASY? Thank god and jesus christ that the government is even nice enough to give out hte hand outs, let alone cater.

Don’t you guys care about our national identity? A common language? English is AMERICAN. Damnit when will America just wise up and lock down this country. Fuck Obama

@FlutherNOW: Wow, okay. Well, it seems you are not the kind of person to have a rational conversation with. Glad we got that cleared up.

@FlutherNOW I understand your point, and agree to some extent, but you are behaving like a “dickhead”, so don’t expect anyone to take you seriously.

@The_Idler: GA for putting dickhead in quotes.

@FlutherNOW that is shocking to me. They didn’t go to school? Or, maybe they went to private school that was Spanish speaking? Miami did have some schools back in the 70’s that were half Spanish half English, but they have gotten rid of that. I have never met someone born here who cannot speak English. Being born here, or coming before school age, makes a huge difference, it is competely different than as an adult.

And flippin’ government forms are very important to be filled out correctly. It is not like reading a menu for a soda and hamburger. Imagine if you lived in a country that was not English speaking, and you quickly learn the new language, you still don’t know, beleive me all of the vocabularly, especially legal jargon. I can speak all day long in Spanish, but if I had a medical problem or had to sign my name swearing to have filled it to the best of my knowledge on a legal document, or buying something as expensive as a house, it would be nice to have it in my mother tongue.

How lucky you are that you were born into a language that a large part of the world speaks.

Just wondering, where is your family from? And, when did they come over?

Parents are American. I am of German decent. We came over sometime “back in the day” lol

Yes, I am surprised too

btw @OthePeople, what does that mean to have dickhead in laser beams? Is a dickhead different than a “dickhead.” Am I suposed to be more insuted with or without the laser beams?

As Little John and the Eastside Boys would say: “Put em up… Put em up… Quit actin like a bitch n put your mother fuckin hands up”

Because it is impossible for Fluther topics to maintain this size without turning into a flame fest I am going to have to call it quits. Nice topic guys.

[/Topic]

@FlutherNOW so you are unaware, it seems, of the struggles your German relatives went through when they came to America? You have no idea if they learned English right away or ever? Did you see @morphail links?

But JLeslie, they did it. It wasen’t made easy back in the day. They did it. I am here today as living proof

Many immigrants (and my family included) most likely had to work shitty jobs so that their CHILDREN can have a HOPE of getting somewhere in America. They had to LEARN english, or continue to work the shitty job. They had to educate their children so that they do not end up working the same shitty job as their parents. There was no easy for the old immigrants. The new immigrants just come here and expect things.

Looking at links now

@FlutherNOW You realize that this was a civil thread until you wrote ”Damnit when will America just wise up and lock down this country. Fuck Obama”? Sounds like you have other issues as well…

@kidkosmik

The thread was getting boring. Someone had to spice it up a bit :).

@Jleslie EDIT: Intresting read (the links).

Damn this thread will soon be the largest on all of Fluther!!

@FlutherNOW No. You have no idea if the people in your family who actually immigrated learned English. Their children and grandchildren did. I agree that learning English is the key to success in America. You have seen that I empathisize with how frustrating it can be to live in Miami when you don’t understand Spanish. That is why I keep talking about people who were born here do speak English. The problem is the Hispanics have come over in masses over many many years, so there are not just neighborhoods but large cities that are very Spanish speaking oriented. Since there is an influx of hispanics over many generations, there is always a generation present who does not speak English well. When the Italians, and Russians, and Polish were coming into NY, it seems to me the immigration was not in large numbers over 50 years time, but a shorter period, so they came, they had children, and within a short time the majority of that group spoke English, but it was the new American born generation. Of course many of the immigrants learned English, but many didn’t especially the women.

@JLeslie “but many didn’t especially the women.”

Heh, this is back in the day. They never needed to. Remember the old saying “Quit you’re bitchin and get back to the kitchen…..” (no sexism intended).

I do see your point. I don’t know why, I just find it incredibly RUDE and ARROGANT that someone could live in this country for so long and not have the desire to learn English. To me it says “I am happy in my little cliquey group, and if you are not part of it F*** you.” I don’t know if you see what I mean. Thats my problem with it.

So it’s about you feeling like the outsider? Nice.~

@FlutherNOW My mother-in-law is 71 years old, has lived here for about 12 years, and she feel awful that she cannot speak English. She has taken classes, but does not interact that much with English speaking people, except for the supermarket (and she lives in a very American neighborhood) and tends to be afraid of saying something wrong, so she never really got out there and stumbled through speaking the language. She feels it limits her and is not right, she believes she should speak our language, she feels guilt over it. She as never once thought that America should have everything in Spanish, but is grateful when things are bilingual. She made sure all of her children went to private school and had English every year of their primary education. Two of them came to America as exchanges students. She respects our country.

Meanwhile, I still have a little empathy for you, because the Cubans, especially the older generation, tend to give the message that they are just here temporarily, waiting for Castro, and that it is partly America’s fault Castro is still there. During Elian Gonzales I remember watching them take to the streets waving Cuban flags! Wanting the US to keep the kid here. I get it. But, I think maybe it is the atitude you are surrounded by not the language. Maybe I am wrong. If the 70 year old guy who does not speak English spoke of how he loved America, and was greatful for the opportunity it provided for him and his children, I think you might be more empathetic. That is what most immigrants are like.

@KatawaGrey GA for saying what I was thinking :)

I relearn my elementary Spanish; “Si usted habla espagñol, marque el dos.”

@gailcalled Either you made a typo or you studied Italian more than Spanish. No G in Espanol (I don’t know how to make a tilde on here) Lol.

@JLeslie: Right you are. I was so busy showing off that ñ (which makes a sound different from our “n” that I did misspell it. On a Mac Snow Leopard, hit “option” + n, then take finger off “option” and hit n again. How would you type that ñ phonetically? Nyuh?

In Italian gn is very similar to the tilde topped n.

@JLeslie: My little translation app says that Spanish is La Spagnolo in Italian. I can guess how that is pronounced. in Portuguese it is Espanholo.

NO…..learn English

@gailcalled Not that Espagnol is an Italian word, I meant that “gn” in Italian is pronounced like a tilde n, the nyuh you spoke of. So if you were sounding out spelling the word Espanol in Italian you would spell it gn, does that make sense?

@JLeslie: Si y (e) si.

@gailcalled
It should be Lo Spagnolo :\

@Nullo: Is there a La Spagnola or should I actually take Italian lessons?

@gailcalled
There is a La Spagnola, but that refers to a female – or a female-gendered noun – from Spain. Spagnolo refers to both the language and the males/male-gendered nouns.
Go ahead, take Italian. You’ll like it. :D

@Nullo: I just learned that we can call @cyanoticwasp @cyanoticvespa.

@gailcalled Isn’t that a type of motorcycle? :)

@Dr_Dredd: Yes, but look up “wasp” in Italian. I suppose it’s due to the pesky noise a Vespa makes.

Interesting. In French, wasp is guepe, which probably comes from guespe, which in turn probably comes from vespa. Neat!

@gailcalled
We could indeed.
@Dr_Dredd
Piaggio – the makers of the Vespa – had a striped-flying-buzzing-insect naming theme a while back for its small-engined macines; in addition to the Vespa, they make a three-wheeled utility vehicle called the Ape.
Piaggio is quite popular in Asia nowadays.

@Nullo: Is an ape a striped-flying-buzzing insect in Italian? Yes, it is, I see. Ahpey = bee. I guess similar to apiary. I also just learned that in Latin, apis is bee.

After the Revolutionary War the Americans decided that, due to the fact that they had just packed up the exalted British professional army on their own ships and sent them back to England that America should have a different “official language.” Everyone immediately agreed that it should NOT be English so they decided on German. Unfortunately some spoilsport had to point out that none of them could actually SPEAK German. We only speak English in America by default.

@Don_Liston
You can thank Noah Webster for our more common-sense spelling practices.

@Nullo Thank? Noah Webster’s legacy is in desperate need of some Erin Brokovich to clean it up.

@FireMadeFlesh
I’m afraid that I don’t understand what you mean by the reference. All I’ve got on Brokovich is that she was the subject of a mediocre Julia Roberts movie.

Webster polluted the English language with poor spelling and terrible punctuation – so we need someone with the drive to go to the top and return it to its former state.

@FireMadeFlesh Most of Webster’s spelling reforms weren’t adopted, and the ones that were aren’t that big a deal – -or for -our and -re for -er are the biggest ones. As for punctuation – what “terrible punctuation” are you talking about?

http://www.bartleby.com/185/32.html

@morphail The biggest problems in my opinion are the loss of many -ough words, such as plough/plow, and the loss of ae and oe. When I see ‘plow’ I have to stop and think, because it appears like it should be pronounced ploh. American spelling also becomes a real problem in my textbooks, because the differences in spelling change many abbreviations that we use all the time. For example changing the spelling of oesophagus changes GORD to GERD in some literature. When you pronounce it correctly, esophagus does not reflect the phonetics of the word. It is just being different for the sake of being different, and much of it doesn’t make sense if the original pronunciation of the word is retained. The only American word that makes sense to me, and the only one that I use, is jail/gaol.

I’m not sure if Noah Webster is responsible for punctuation errors, but a large proportion of American (non-academic) writing that I have read has a distinct lack of commas. Sometimes it takes a little deciphering, and other times it makes the meaning of the phrase completely ambiguous because it could be one of a number of options.

I might have to show this thread to my brother – he’s the one studying to teach English.

hah I didn’t know you spelt plough so. looks ridiculous.

Variant spellings are no big deal to me… it seems weird to complain about them, but whatever. I don’t think the change of oesophagus to esophagus had anything to do with Webster.

I did not know about plough either, but we certainly have replaced doughnut with donut in America.

And what about Omelet? I was writing omelette for years, and then recently I dscovered I must be incorrect, because I have noticed it written as omelet on many menus. What is correct?

Apparently in the US you can spell it omelet, but omelette is still correct.

How did this get this off topic :P

absurd.
I would pronounce “omelet” as “om-uh-lay” and “donut” as “don-ut” and “plow” as “ploe”

Obviously I wouldn’t really, but the original spellings are more intuitive with regards to pronunciation.

I also dislike the removal of diphthongs. It leads people to pronounce “paedophile” as “pedophile”, which is silly, because the prefix is PAEDO.
No doubt some Americans say “oestrogen” with the same first syllable as “establish”.

Why bastardize words like this?

@The_Idler I agree with you about the Om-uh-lay pronunciation. How about this, in America we generally pronounce names in the original language. Words and/or names like Cartier, filet (like a filet of beef); how do you say them? My husbands family says them in Spanish as spelled, Car-ti-err and fil-let, which I find odd. His sister says the way she learned it in her country/language the proper thing to do is to pronounce it in her language But, the other day I was watching Chef Ramsay, British obviously, and he said Fil-let also.

@JLeslie Filet is a French word, and pronounced “fee-lay”. as in “Filet Mignon” would be pronounced the french way.

Fillet is an English word, which was brought here by the Normans (from France). It has been part of the language for 600 years. Our language is the biggest bastard language in the world. These are not loanwords though. They are not foreign words. They just come from foreign words, like almost all of our language comes from saxon, latin, greek or french. Not because we took their words, but because they came here, settled and the languages merged (except the greeks, but that’s all technical/medical terms).

So your pronunciation of fillet as “filet” is hyper-correction. I suspect the Normans may even have pronounced the t. After a few hundred years of living in England they did.

Likewise with the “color”. Sure the word entered French from Latin, but it entered into English from Norman French. Hyper-correction like this is an absurd and unnecessary Americanism. They wanted to make the language more true to its roots, and did the opposite.

It’s stupid, simple as.

—————————-

Why don’t you pronounce (or spell) ”cavalier (cav-al-ear)” as ”chavalier (shev-al-ee-ay)” as it is a “french word” (taken in the same era as “fillet”).
Oh but the french comes from the italian, ”cavalliere” so you should probably say it like that.
Oh but then the whole point is to be true the Latin root, so I guess you should probably be saying ”caballarius”.

Also, arson is a word taken from french, more recently then “fillet”, why do you not use ”arsoun” or Old French ”arsion”.
Oh but the Late Latin was ”arsionem”,
oh but the original Latin was ”arsus”.

Also, why do you spell galvanise with a Z? apparently to make it more Latin.
More ridiculous hypercorrection.
it is from the French, ”galvanisier”, which is from the Italian ”galvanismo”, named after Mr Galvani.
This is barely 200 years ago, yesterday compared to “fillet”, why don’t you pronounce and spell it “properly”, it is far more of a “foreign” word than “fillet”!

—————————-

I could make such an example of almost any word in the English language. They are almost all “foreign” words, a huge amount taken naround the same time as “fillet”,
in America, why do you not pronounce them all “properly”!?

@The_Idler You don’t like how Americans say “oestrogen”… oh but the word is from Greek οἰστρος, so you should be saying “oystrogen”.

@morphail

The English prefix comes from the Latin “oestrus”.

As indicated above, American-style hyper-correction is undesirable, illogical and counter-productive.

The word entered the language with an oe from the Latin. So, it is pronounced. So, it is spelt.

There is neither a need to change the spelling to a counter-intuitive “modern” one, nor change the pronunciation to an earlier, irrelevant root, both of which would be good examples of the contradictory absurdities in Webster’s proposed reforms for ‘American’ English.

@The_Idler I was just extending your argument to cover the words you were complaining about. Latin “oestrus” was pronounced something like “oystrus”, so by your own argument you should pronounce it that way in English.

@morphail

Not for at least 1,000 years before it was adopted into the English language as the prefix in question.

To pronounce or spell it in the Old Latin or Greek style would be American-style hyper-correction.

@The_Idler According to that article, “oe” came be pronounced /eː/ – this is similar to the vowel in English “bay”. I assume that you pronounce “oestrogen” with /iː/ as in “bee”. So you’re still pronouncing it “wrong”.

What about the ”-gen” element of “oestrogen”? It’s borrowed from French ”-gène”, pronounced with /ʒ/ (zh), borrowed from Greek -γενης pronounced with /g/. So why do we pronounce it with a “j” sound? We’re pronouncing it wrong!

It seems to me that you’re picking a certain variety of English at a certain point in time and claiming “this is right, any variations from this norm are stupid.” Except that pronounciation and spelling are always changing, and any variety you pick is going to be as full of illogical and counter-intuitive spellings and pronunciations as any other.

@The_Idler Well, of course I realize English has taken words from many languages, but I did appreciate your examples. Still, I can’t get past Cartier, I mean it is a name. But then, we completely change names, which I don’t get either. Like Christopher Columbus. I bet there are a whole bunch of people who think he was English, and spoke English when he crossed the ocean blue. Maybe if we at minimum left his name alone people might guess he was Italian or Spanish.

@morphail well, touché, serves me right for not looking up the IPA.

Still…

You are saying that my preference of oestrogen vs. estrogen is absurd because the Latin oe came from the Greek οἰ, which isn’t pronounced like ”ee”?
I don’t think you really understood my argument.

I was making the point that American hyper-correction of ”fillet (fil-let)” to French ”filet (fee-lay)” is absurd, because a significant proportion of the English language was incorporated from French roots in that period, and such practice is not observed with most other words of similar origin, for example ‘cavalier’ and ‘arson’ and ‘galvanize’. I gave these examples to illustrate the absurdity of the American argument for pronouncing 600 year old ‘foreign’ words ‘foreign’, and spelling things with -ize to be more Latin, when the words are actually from French.

So it is the Americans that would be more likely to change “eostrogen” to “oystrogen”, to be more similar to an irrelevant root (like you do in French -ise words, by changing it to the Latin -ize, sometimes even without the word ever having existed in Latin) . But no, in a classic example of the counter-intuitive American English, it is changed to be further from the root.

This is my point, while the British keep the spellings and pronunciations of the original coinage, you are modifying words to be less like the root, but at the same time modifying words to be more like the root (or Latin, even in cases where there was no Latin root!).
What exactly is the point? My argument was satire of an American practice, why would I behave the same way? Oestrogen isn’t a hyper-correction, its the original English term.

@JLeslie because we have had a mish-mash of different nationalities settling in Britain over history, theiir names became part of English, and were pronounced in a more “English” way. If the person is actually foreign, however, the name would be pronounced in the foreign way. Like “Thierry Henry” (french footballer) isn’t pronounced “Theodor (or Terry or Teddy) Henry”, but in the French way.

Like a French Cartier would still be “Cart-ee-ay” in England.

@The_Idler
Aside from “filet”, you haven’t really shown that any American spelling and pronunciation changes were ever intended as corrections. As for ”-ize”, the spelling with “z” isn’t limited to the US. The OED uses it uniformly. Spellings with ”-ize” are found in Shakespeare, for instanced “An vnauthoriz’d kisse?” (Othello IV i) from French “autoriser”.

Sure, some American changes might seem absurd, but absurd changes have been happening before there was even such a thing as American English. You say “the British keep the spellings and pronunciations of the original coinage” but I can find examples of similar things that happened in British English. For instance “foetus” from Latin “fetus” – the unetymological “oe” was added in the 1500s.
“Waistcoat” was pronounced like “wesket” until it was decided to “correct” the pronunciation to be more like the spelling. “Island” is from Old English “iegland” – the unetymological “s” was added because it was thought that the word was related to Latin “insula”. Again, any variety of English you pick is going to be as full of illogical and counter-intuitive spellings and pronunciations as any other.

And where did “Lefttenant” come from?

@morphail I’m sure there are many examples of illogical or contradictory changes, but those things happened before any standardization of the language.

the -ize spelling is acceptable (even preferred) in English, except when the word is from French. The American idea was to prefer -ize, as it is closer to the Latin root, but this is applied in American English, even when there is no Latin root, as in “galvanize” and “realize” etc. This is hyper-correction.

You take the u out of -our words of French origin, to be more like the Latin root, despite NOT being from Latin.
But then you take the diphthong out of everything, so theyre less like the Latin root, despite BEING from Latin.

The stupid things about English happened before standardization, and standardization froze them in their dominant form, as they were used in the English language. The problem I have with the American standardization, is the fact that different words were modified to be more – or less – like roots, which may – or may not – exist! This conscious and organized attempt to rationalize the language made so many unnecessary and counter-intuitive changes. Not so excusable, as the ones that happened in the time before dictionaries!

Rather than being incidental, like the ambiguities that crept in over time, this was a concerted effort to make the language more logical, which ended up in a unjustifiably contradictory mess.

Your point about Shakespeare is irrelevant, because he didn’t standardize the English language, nor did he have a dictionary. Nor did anyone, when these ambiguities developed. So the language is a bastard one. Then the Americans tried to make it more pure, and more logical, and did completely the opposite, and with terrible arguments to boot.

I’m not saying that there are no absurdities in the English language. Of course there are. I am just saying that the Americans purposely slapped a whole load more in, all at once, in the modern era, with ridiculous arguments that boil down to needless rationalization and hyper-correction.

@gailcalled The Lieutenant one is an odd one, but people have been saying – and spelling – it “leftenant” in English since the 14th Century. So the English word is “leftenant”, though standardization has kept the French spelling (it is a word from France). Then the Americans decided to change the pronunciation to be more like the French, despite having said “lef” for 400 years previously. This is fine, but for the fact that, as I indicated earlier, a huge proportion of English words come from Old/Norman French, yet the Americans do not treat them the same!

Why “lieutenant” and “fillet”, but not “cavalier” and “arson”!?
They are all from French, around the same era, but they had been English for hundreds of years, before someone decided to change a select few to be more like the French!?
(and also the -our to be less like the French, what exactly is the point here? Change for change’s sake? ”Let’s all be less like the British”?)

@The_Idler

“The stupid things about English happened before standardization, and standardization froze them in their dominant form, as they were used in the English language.”

If we define “standardization” as the movement to “fix” English and to make it more “logical”, that started in the early 1700s, then some of these things happened before standardization, and some were a result of standardization. In every case, though, even for things that happened before standardization, like “foetus”, I think these sorts of respellings were a result of a desire to make the language make more sense, just like Webster’s reforms were.

You seem to be saying that attempts in Britain to standardize spelling were OK, but similar attempts in the US were absurd. But both movements were motivated out of the same desire to “fix” the language and make it more “logical”, and both incorporated unetymological or inconsistent spellings.

@gailcalled
I dunno if this is the actual etymology or not, but I once heard someone say that “lieutenant” is “the tenant, in lieu of the master.” An Anglicized version could very well be “the tenant that was left”.

@Nullo: Accurate or not, it is a lovely and satisfying answer to me (and possibly other word buffs. I wonder what the etymology of that is.)

It’s from French lieu “place” + tenant “holding”. The first definition in the OED is “One who takes the place of another; usually, an officer civil or military who acts for a superior; a representative, substitute, vicegerent.”

As The_Idler says, the “leftenant” pronunciation is the earliest one in English, but it is difficult to explain.

This thread has taken quite an intresting turn…...

Back to original question, I don’t care if things come with 20 sets of instructions, but I do care if an automated system says “press 1 for English.” It can say “press 1 for Spanish” if it wants to, but it better assume that I speak English, since this is America. Yeah, I know. That sounds really red-neck, but I don’t think it’s such a stretch to expect Americans to speak English, and they can push a diffferent button if they don’t.

Face Palm