Social Question

Captain_Fantasy's avatar

Why do people love to argue about religion so much?

Asked by Captain_Fantasy (11439points) April 30th, 2010

What a polarizing topic this is. This isn’t exclusive to Fluther so please don’t Meta this one.

Rather whenever religion comes up on any forum whether it be in person or online or in the news, there’s always so much discussion going back and forth and it’s usually very heated.

Why do we love debating this topic so much?

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117 Answers

BoBo1946's avatar

—good question…don’t really know accept a good way to lose a friend, discuss religion or politics with her/him!

My only thought would be that each plays such a huge role in our lives!

jfos's avatar

1) It’s impossible to know the truth, so people try to convince others (and sometimes themselves) that their opinion is correct.

2) It is important to many people. For instance, if someone believes in one religion or another, it might significantly impact his/her life.

3) Some non-religious people hate when religious people attempt to push their outlandish claims on people, so they contest.

4) People love to argue, this is a topic that relates to everyone.

Response moderated
Adirondackwannabe's avatar

I was going to moderate that myself, and I get a GA?

Qingu's avatar

It’s important, it forms some of the deepest convictions and behavior patterns, and there’s a lot of points to argue about. Sort of like politics, which people also argue a lot about.

For me, it’s pretty easy to argue against religion, so I almost treat it like a hobby to unwind.

BoBo1946's avatar

@Adirondackwannabe watch it….I’m religious, but not a jerk…actually, more spiritual than religious!

Rarebear's avatar

I’m an atheist and have no problem with religion (being a relatively religious Jew myself). What I have a problem with is people denying science.

BoBo1946's avatar

@Adirondackwannabe to prove it…lurves

CMaz's avatar

Do we… Argue?

I don’t see it that way. Passionate people being passionate.

I never see it that way. That would be taking it personal. I never take it personal.

Besides, you need another person to argue. Especially on here it is easy enough to talk to the hand. ;-)

Adirondackwannabe's avatar

@BoBo1946 I threw that out there to get a little fire started, not seriously.

DominicX's avatar

I agree with @jfos. It contains many issues, claims, and problems that can’t be solved or proven, so both sides discuss it as much as possible. At this point, it isn’t something that we have “solved” and have all the answers to, so there is going to be ongoing debate about it. It deals with the intangible and the hidden. What is more arguable than that which we can’t even see?

It also is something that is very important to people and something that people live their lives by, so they are going to defend it and try to get other people to live their lives that way as well. And that’s part of the problem, that it is something that people try to control other people’s lives with often.

Hence why so many wars have been fought over it in the past. It’s all about control.

jfos's avatar

@Adirondackwannabe Not literally, as well? (Fire)

jfos's avatar

Or perhaps it’s like this…

If you thought you saw a blue pig flying outside of your window, wouldn’t you feel better about yourself if others agreed with you?

JLeslie's avatar

I think I only argue about it because I feel judged. I simply talk about it out of interest in the particular belief system.

janbb's avatar

Why do people like banging their heads against brick walls, too?

CMaz's avatar

@JLeslie – I see where you are coming from. But…

Can’t get to a “logical” understanding if you go down the personal road. :-)
If the “question” gets derailed, it is usually due to over emotion.

Digg’in the picture.

zophu's avatar

@ChazMaz

Can’t get to a relevant understanding if you hide yourself way from your discussions.

By the way, does anyone else feel that it’s ridiculous to refer to religion as a “popular topic”? I mean, I it is a popular topic, but so is Justin Beiber (or however you spell it)

Captain_Fantasy's avatar

An argument doesn’t need to include personal attacks.
All an argument is, is a discussion.

I think it’s an opportunity to express our spiritual beliefs which we all seem to hold very close to our hearts.

JLeslie's avatar

@ChazMaz Well, I don’t know if I mean personally judged. Like I cannot stand the Christian idea that it does not matter what you do in life, if you do not accept Jesus you are going to hell. Or, that people think atheists are immoral. That is when I argue, on points like those. Assumptions made about a person because of their religious beliefs I find very annoying. Being an atheist Jew living in a country where the majority is Christain and the right wingers get significant play on the airwaves it is constantly there. Not to mention that now I live in the bible belt. Honestly, I don’t tell many people I am an atheist here. I wouldn’t lie if asked directly, but I am sure most people think I believe in God.

Qingu's avatar

I disagree that religion contains claims that can’t be proven or disproven. Certainly not many of the claims in the Bible.

For example, it’s been readily proven that the sky is not a solid dome that holds up an above-sky ocean. The Bible also makes a number of historical claims that have been disproven by archaeology and the study of history.

DominicX's avatar

@Qingu

I didn’t mean all the claims couldn’t be proven or disproven, but many of them can’t, including the core claims.

In before this question becomes a religious debate.

zophu's avatar

@DominicX
The claims could be proven or disproven, if the the understandings could be communicated: God, Existence, Purpose etc.. That’s not going to happen without mass enlightenment, and that’s not easy to do when there’s a never-ending wave of power-hungry fools trying to rule the world.

DominicX's avatar

How can anyone ever prove the existence of another plane of existence?

zophu's avatar

@DominicX
How do you know outerspace exists? Gah! no more down this road, too abstract.

Trillian's avatar

Arguing is pointless but I love discussing things I’ve read and what other religions have to say. I never approach from the standpoint of changing someone’s mind, so maybe that’s the difference.
I read a great book that I’m still waiting for someone else to read so I can have a conversation about it. I hope that day comes soon, but it’s the same category for me as The Wheel of Time series. I just like discussing it because it’s interesting to me and I love to compare notes.

wonderingwhy's avatar

Perhaps because it involves such ardent faith regardless of which side you’re on.

If that’s not enough, combine it with the fact that either you are whole heartedly in agreement with the principals of your chosen beliefs which tends to spur a want to “educate”, “enlighten”, or at least “correct” others. Or deep down you know that you can never “truly” know no matter how much you believe at which point arguing becomes as much a search for clarity and justification as anything. Let’s face it when people think they’re right, more often than not, they want everyone else to know it (yay… egotistical arrogance :-/ ). Even more so, after all of that, who wants to accept that they were wrong about something they devoted their belief to for so long.

Then again, some people just like a good argument.

nailpolishfanatic's avatar

Because some ppl don’t accept and respect other people’s religion:!

Adirondackwannabe's avatar

@Thesexier Excellent answer. It comes down to a lack of tolerance and respect. I’ve been a f****** jerk today and that answer got three GAs.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

Because you can’t help it…you want others to know they’re being illogical if logic is what’s important to you and you want others to know they’re risking their soul if faith is what’s important to you.

CMaz's avatar

Yes, we are talking about your eternity. I mean I would get VERY argumentative if you were about to walk off a cliff and I wanted to stop you.

JLeslie's avatar

@ChazMaz But, is the Christian really only concerned about the other person, or are they afraid the whole world is going to hell in a handbasket? Isn’t some of it selfish?

And, what about the Jews fufilling the prophecy? All of these Christians pro-Israel basically using my people to build the temple, but then my people are still go to hell. WTF?!

Adirondackwannabe's avatar

I’m impressed with the level of discussion. Usually it goes downhill in a hurry when you discuss religion. Good job guys.

CMaz's avatar

“Isn’t some of it selfish?”
Yes. That is why god had to create laws. So we would not get out of line.

“but then my people are still go to hell.”
Yep.

But don’t worry. There is no hell. ;-) The selfish ones would like you to believe there is.

zophu's avatar

@ChazMaz I don’t want to argue immortality, I want to know why you think you believe there is immortality. Or maybe I just want you to know why you believe there is immortality.

You can’t hide yourself away from this discussion anymore than I can hide myself from it. You see my incompatibility with society in my words. Now, have the balls to show your weakness—at least to yourself.

It’s not your immortality you’re living for, and it’s not the immortality of others you’re living for either. It’s for the immortality of Humanity, through living, not through dying!

Respect life and stop glorifying death just so you don’t have to worry about how disgusting the things are around you. How doomed they are. You’re an adult now, you don’t need to protect yourself with so much delusion.

I’m not trying to save your soul right now, I’m attempting to reason with you—one person of billions that I potentially live for. There’s no glory here, only life. That’s all I want, because that’s all there is. And it is more beautiful than either of us can comprehend. Too beautiful to name in any generic hymn or to stick on any symbol.

Call it God if you have to, but don’t use that glossary to turn away from reality. People depend on you. And it’s not a super-soul-saver we need.

silverfly's avatar

I think because having religious beliefs gives people purpose in life. To argue someone’s reason for living is kind of like denying their existence is meaningful.

zophu's avatar

@silverfly In their minds, you argue their existence itself.

tinyfaery's avatar

Because the ultimate validation of truth is the agreement of others. We need to know we a right and we can “prove” it to ourselves if we can get others to agree, as well.

silverfly's avatar

@zophu Right… and that of course may be the most offensive thing to argue about.

JLeslie's avatar

@silverfly Hmmm? My religion does not really give me purpose I don’t think. There are moments where I feel like I want to have 10 children to give the world more Jews, to say f*ck you to all of the people who want(ed) to kill us. But for the most part my religion is not part of my life at all. I am not religious.

zophu's avatar

@silverfly Not just the meaning, I mean. To say there is no God is to say there is no world. Their survival instincts kick in and they become impulsive. But their impulsiveness persists over long periods of time and not just in short bursts like any natural defense would entail. After being indoctrinated, when faced with reason whether from others or from their environment, their heads get sick. It just seemed silly to me to equate that to “being offended.” But in the same way religion is a popular topic, I guess that is an offense.

CMaz's avatar

“I want to know why you think you believe there is immortality.”
I never said there was. At least the type you are interpreting I said there was.

“You can’t hide yourself away from this discussion anymore ”
I have no idea what you are talking about. :-)

Immortality starts the day you are born. And if you are never remembered, you still go on. You still existed and a tree just might feed off of you. To go on and produce more trees.
Your molecules might seed another planet. Don’t assume we are all looking for that bearded guy with a finger sticking out.

“There’s no glory here, only life.”
And life is pretty glorious and will go on and on and on.

“Call it God if you have to”
I call it God because I want to. Pick a name any name.

“And it’s not a super-soul-saver we need.”
The only “soul saver” is yourself. I got my own problems. :-)

Cruiser's avatar

Let’s see…if we start off with this (even though it admittedly was a deliberate attempt to instigate comments)...
“Religious people are fucking jerks.”

Let’s make sure we include broad characterizations of all religious people as…
“power-hungry fools”

Then of course we can treat religious discussions as a fun sport…
“it’s pretty easy to argue against religion, so I almost treat it like a hobby to unwind”

And then there is the recent introduction of science to help turn the discussion on it’s head…
“I have a problem with is people denying science.”

Of course what religious discussion would be complete without angels or..
“a blue pig flying outside of your window”

And when the discussion hits an impasse you can always tear down the barriers by
“banging their heads against brick walls”

What is the point to even starting a discussion on Religion when..
“majority is Christain and the right wingers get significant play on the airwaves”
and
“there’s a never-ending wave of power-hungry fools trying to rule the world”

Then of course we can all be called to reveal our true spiritual acumen by..
“have the balls to show your weakness

So are these religious “discussions” a real opportunity to discuss the finer points of all things religion or to perpetuate age old stereotypes and blind faith arguments??

CMaz's avatar

For me it is a discussion to understand the human race. The people around me. What makes them tick.

Actually, to discover and to watch individuals personal issues come out. That is fun and interesting.

To get down to the nuts and bolts of who, or what God is. As the saying goes. You can’t handle the truth. Because…

I am God. ;-)

JLeslie's avatar

@Cruiser I was not saying the majority of Christians are right wingers. I said the majority of the country is Christian, and my point was the right wingers are getting play right now so it feels bad, but I do not think for a second that all Christians are extreme and hateful. I just wanted to clarify my statement. I think you took it the wrong way. I am only talking about what is in my face all of the time, not what is really out there.

zophu's avatar

@ChazMaz

More fun and interesting than analyzing your own personal issues, I bet.

You speak completely religious words, then you backpedal and say “nothing matters, it’s just a discussion between people who are awesome” or whatever phrase you use to cut off any discussion before it turns into an argument. If you’re going to talk about people’s eternity, with that actual vocabulary, back it up. You can’t say such absolute things then immediately back off off without explaining anything in the face of a challenge. That’s not mysterious and deep, just distant. “Here’s the truth, bitches, deal with it.” It’s disrespectful not only to the people you’re speaking with but to the subject of the discussion. You have to show that you understand things from many perspectives before you can help others understand them from theirs.

I ask that you respond to this in a non-bullet-point form. It might show you thought more about what I’ve said as a whole and didn’t look for easy ways out of saying something meaningful by responding to snippets of information individually. (Sorry if you’ve already begun your list.) I understand there are plenty of ways to interpret my brain-rattle words, but the message is clear enough if you don’t break things down too much, I think.

CMaz's avatar

“Sorry if you’ve already begun your list.”
Yes I have. ;-)

“then immediately back off off without explaining anything in the face of a challenge.”
I have, you just can’t see it with the cloud of dust you are kicking up..
And, as you put it:
”“Here’s the truth, bitches, deal with it.”” Again, your words. I like how you answer your own questions. :-) Its that personal stuff.

“I understand there are plenty of ways to interpret my brain-rattle words”
Your words not mine.

That goes on my “list” too. Like I said, very entertaining.

zophu's avatar

@ChazMaz

At least reanalyze my words without worrying about a response. You’re breaking them down and rebuilding them how you wish. Responding only to snippets you have clever points towards. Maybe make a bullet point concerning your disrespect.

CMaz's avatar

*Maybe make a bullet point concerning your disrespect.

Again, your words. Sorry if you feel that way. :-)

And now we know why @Captain_Fantasy asked this question. ;-)

It is not just about Religion. It is about why people can’t get past their emotional issues and stay focused on the discussion. ;-)

Rangie's avatar

@Captain_Fantasy a little more to the point, an arguement is a heated discussion, where a discussion is usually in preparation of making a decision.
I don’t see the point of arguing over religion in the first place. I don’t know about you, but there is no religion I could completely agree with. There is always something that just doesn’t set right with me. So who am I to argue with anybody about their religion. I think it is a personal thing within each of us, to keep within ourselves. I am not responsible for how anyone thinks about religion or anything else. That’s not my job.

zophu's avatar

@ChazMaz Yeah, I knew I couldn’t resist as soon as I read it.

Cruiser's avatar

@JLeslie I did not take your statement the wrong way and is why I was careful not to attribute those words directly to you as I merely was using them as an example of how discussions about religion can quickly get mired down by broad stroke statements that include large segments of religious entities Germain to the conversation and even indict others who are merely guilty by association. IMO it is this very “in your face” reaction to these discussion that will sink them in a hurry.

zophu's avatar

@ChazMaz

One last note: Consider for a second that I’m not burying myself in the ground as much as you think I am. What would that mean? I try to sympathize with people I talk to, this makes what I say easier to take in, but it also makes what I say easier to manipulate. Not just outwardly, but inwardly. That on top of my “personal issues” makes it easy to pick apart. I do write these things mostly for myself, but there is still meaning in what I say. Some of it is relevant to you.

CMaz's avatar

All of what you said was relevant. Good stuff.

Just might not be the way you would like it to be. ;-)

zophu's avatar

@ChazMaz

Like I said, most of what I write is for myself.

CMaz's avatar

That is how it should be. :-) Some people will hop on, Some will take the bus.

I respect your insight. Because… I am God! :-) lol

JLeslie's avatar

@Cruiser Fair enough. Not to worry. If I were discussing religion with a Christian one on one I ask them first what they think. I would not assume. Once they launch into their exclusionary rant, I just tell them it is illogical to me. On fluther I am a little looser with my generalizations. :)

plethora's avatar

It’s the only thing worth argueing about

Cruiser's avatar

@JLeslie I was raised Catholic and honestly thought it was the end all Religion but as I grew older I realized every religion has their hook to hang their hat on but what was universal throughout all religions is the abundance of the ignorant. Those who believed their faith just to believe not knowing spit about the tenants, values and principals of their religion and defending their perceived superiority of their beliefs just because they were simply part of the anointed flock.

CMaz's avatar

That’s called Gang Violence.

JLeslie's avatar

@Cruiser But, Judaism says in the Talmud that all good people can go to heaven. So, I am not sure I would say Jews think they are more right. Jews care about how we treat each other here on earth, how all of us treat each other. The Orthodox take it further, following many rules, but the average Jew is not going to be worried for your soul. Not because he doesn’t give a shit, but because it is not a worry. So, Jews inherently accept that there are other religions on earth, while Christians seem loath to accept it. That is another generalization about Christians obviously. The Catholics I put in a different category. They seem very rational to me for the most part. I think some of the eastern religions also believe there are many paths to goodness to the afterlife.

Now, it is true that each religion wants the religion to perservere through time. Partly because it is a business, but then also people find peace in their religious beliefs, bring order to their lives, it is not all with ill intent. I see a lot of good come from religion, I am not totally negative. And, as I have said, even though I a not religious, there is part of me that every so often wishes I had 10 Jewish children to add to the world. Did I say that on this thread? Because so many people throughout history have wanted to finish us off.

CMaz's avatar

God promised King David…
“I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body… and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever” (2 Samuel 7:12,13)

Coloma's avatar

I agree that it is all about fragile egos and control and defensivness when assimilated to be be an attack on anothers beliefs. Yep, the stuff of wars exactly. lol

A person who is secure within, with who they are, what they belive in, and live it by walking their talk feels no need to debate.

They just smile and nod, politely disengage or, for the really enlightend….they might actually be able to say ’ maybe your right!’ haha

DominicX's avatar

Religion is so hot right now.

Cruiser's avatar

@JLeslie I guess I might “argue” your point about how Jews treat other people. I went to a High School that was 97% Jewish and more often than not I was not invited into the home, I was not approved of by the parents to play with Jewish kids all because I was Catholic with a German last name. They noticeably took care of their kind quite well but I sadly can say I did not observe the same courtesies outside their religion.

For the record I am married to a Jewish woman and was graciously accepted into her family but as a kid I experienced a much more polarized and exclusive religious world.

I otherwise completely agree with the rest of your thoughts!

Rangie's avatar

@DominicX It is a persons beliefs, how can you say it is not so hot right now. Quite honestly You are not so hot right now, if you ever were.

Rangie's avatar

@DominicX my bad, I saw hot and thought not. I have been on this computer too long. Please accept my apology.

Silhouette's avatar

For the religious it’s a number one priority. For the non religious it’s a load of number two. This causes strife. When someone threatens your belief system it feels like any other threat and sometimes fight or flight kicks in.

Rangie's avatar

@Silhouette I couldn’t have said it better, except to add for the individual’s religious belief it is number one priority. Do not criticize my personal faith, or I will be in your face. I would not do that to someone else. Kudos Silhouette:):)

Silhouette's avatar

@Rangie Agreed, I don’t begrudge the faithful their faith and I don’t want an in my face lecture about my lack of faith. Good way to get a knuckle sandwhich.

Rangie's avatar

@Silhouette Yes, and I have a pretty good right. But I don’t think we need to worry about it too much. The devil has them by the neck already.

Silhouette's avatar

@Rangie Them who? Us vs them is at the heart of the bickering back and forth. There is no us or them, there’s just us.

Rangie's avatar

@Silhouette my cheeks are still hurting:)))). I guess you and I ran them off. And the winners are??? just kidding. You are truly a funny lady. Well I guess we move on. NEXT!!

Silhouette's avatar

—@Rangie Ahhh, I guess I missed the scuffle. YAY!!!!

Rangie's avatar

@Silhouette which scuffle. There are quite a few these days.

Silhouette's avatar

@Rangie The one that has your cheeks hurting.

Rangie's avatar

@Silhouette you, you are so funny. the way you said
Them who? Us vs them is at the heart of the bickering back and forth. There is no us or them, there’s just us. It struck me funny.

plethora's avatar

I’m wondering how one can say that a religious person has a belief system and a non-religious person does not have a beiief system. Don’t they both have a belief system?

Rangie's avatar

@plethora yes, they do. One believes in something and the other believes in nothing.

plethora's avatar

@Rangie I’m thinking that they both believe in something..totally different, but still a beiief system about something

Rangie's avatar

@plethora They all ran away. I think they had a hard time making their point against arguing about a religious belief, because they may have none. Now if it is one religion or belief against another, none of them seem too interested in that.

Silhouette's avatar

@plethora Yeah they both have a belief system, just not the same belief system and therein lies the rub. I “believe” there is no God, period. Others believe the is a God, period. Some people believe it’s their duty to shove their beliefs off on others and these people come from both camps.

zophu's avatar

@Silhouette If your beliefs are worth having, they’re worth testing against others. The trick is to be able to actually analyze others’ beliefs without feeling like you’re devaluing your own. It’s when you’re unable to be wrong in your own mind is when things get messy. In order to survive like that, you have to be completely self-justified, chocking up all challenges to your absolute, infallible belief instead of facing them yourself. Atheism can be as much of a religion as Christianity. You believe in tolerating others’ beliefs? Than let them face your own. And if you believe they should do the same, then introduce their beliefs to yours.

This whole, “let’s just be people floating around doing whatever” is a copout used by individuals to create comfy conflict-free environments for themselves. If you have any spirit in you at all, you’re “shoving” your beliefs wherever you can.

plethora's avatar

@zophu Beautiful answer….exactly!!

Dr_Lawrence's avatar

Most of us learn all the religious answers as a child before we can think critically. Even if we dare to question, our teachers make it clear that questioning is not acceptable. Our beliefs and ideas become fixed and closed to reevaluation.

When we discuss the topic with those differently indoctrinated in early life. We can identify points of disagreement but we lack the tools to bridge the gap. Since there are no reliable sources to depend on to resolve the differences, the discussion can only be circular.

The arguments can’t be resolved and we remain uncomfortable when faced with those who simple will not grant that our views are valid – because they conflict with their own.

plethora's avatar

@Dr_Lawrence True in many if not most cases. I would note (just speaking for myself) that all my beliefs got thoroughly reevaluated about the time I graduated from college and set on a new course.

Rangie's avatar

@Dr_Lawrence No disrespect to you, but as a child growing up, I went to Catholic school. I was naturally an inquisitive child. I questioned everything anyone was showing me or telling me. I was not a favorite in the classroom. We always had religion the first thing in the morning. I always seemed to need to know why, why, why and who said so. There were certain things, they could not convince me of, so the answer was because it says so. I was in the 2nd grade when I started questioning the organized religion. I also began gathering my own information in my little tiny head, and my answers were very often more satisfying than theirs. Example: Confession. In class were taught to pray, praying is talking to God. Okay if he could listen to our prayers, why couldn’t he hear our sins as well. I preferred the direct route, and by passing the priest.
That is not to say I didn’t learn most all of the morals I know today from my religion and my parents, with a little Rangie thrown in. I have very strong morals and beliefs today, and always try to live by them. 10 commandments +++ They are the beliefs I live by and for.

JLeslie's avatar

@Cruiser I don’t disagree that Jews can be clannish, which I think is different than telling you your belief system is wrong, and it does not mean they assume you are a bad person. I think you would agree. That’s the stickler for me, that a Christian might think I am less moral, or not deserving. I grew up reformed, atheist parents, and very liberal, no prejudice in my home. I really believe we are all created equal and I do not question someone else’s beliefs, but I can understand, especially as I get older why some Jews really care that their children marry Jewish and have Jewish children. There is a saying that interdating leads to intermarriage, so some prefer keeping with your own so to speak in general. But, I would argue it is not because they think Jews are better or more right, it is about our history. Meanwhile, my husband was raised Catholic :). His parents, mother Catholic, father raised Jewish and converted to Catholicism (practically unheard of in Mexico especially back then both the marriage and the conversion). I didn’t care if my husband was a different religion, I just cared that he wasn’t very religious, and respected other people’s beliefs.

Sophief's avatar

It is the worst topic ever. I don’t see why people need to argue about it.

plethora's avatar

@Sophief I am just quoting @zophu above and in no way trying to make a case for arguing about religion. This, however, is the best explanation I have seen as to why we do.

_“If your beliefs are worth having, they’re worth testing against others. The trick is to be able to actually analyze others’ beliefs without feeling like you’re devaluing your own. It’s when you’re unable to be wrong in your own mind is when things get messy. In order to survive like that, you have to be completely self-justified, chocking up all challenges to your absolute, infallible belief instead of facing them yourself. Atheism can be as much of a religion as Christianity. You believe in tolerating others’ beliefs? Than let them face your own. And if you believe they should do the same, then introduce their beliefs to yours.

This whole, “let’s just be people floating around doing whatever” is a copout used by individuals to create comfy conflict-free environments for themselves. If you have any spirit in you at all, you’re “shoving” your beliefs wherever you can“_

plethora's avatar

Had to edit it…..

DocteurAville's avatar

Plethora,

You are right on the nail head.
Things a proposed in a way that it implies the others must change their minds and embrace the others truth.

I for one think that it is possible to convey both views; that the universe is of a physical nature and, possibly there is no God.

In the other hand God has its spiritual quality in the lives of many people (most of us).

Problem is: Both parties do not, don’t seem to recognize there could be a way out and it is very simple: acceptance.

All end up down the pipe as political mambo-jambo.

plethora's avatar

@DocteurAville I think I’m following you…. not sure. My experience on Fluther has been that those who proclaim themselves atheists are the quickest to cram their views down others throats. While I am a Christian, I actually think that atheism is a perfectly defensible position, once the assumption of no God is made. More defensible than any other religion and equally defensible as Christianity. What the atheists do not want to swallow is that the assumption of no God is a faith based assumption. It cannot be proven and therefore it is accepted on some kind of faith. That’s totally offensive to suggest that they accept anything on some kind of faith. It’s all a product of their perfect intellectual capacities. LOL…..that’s the aspect I cannot buy…their (or my) perfect intellectual capacities.

DocteurAville's avatar

Plethora,

My point of view is simple. Live and let live.

If anyone has a religious point of view it is their personal choice; their believe.
As a matter of tradition I can’t deny the possibility that I am wrong —coming from a religious family as I am.

I haven’t a final answer to the question: Is there, is there not? Fact is, the Earth is four plus billion years old.

I am not in the business of selling God or Science. I actually find that mixing both up could be a good idea. I mean, every people could just stop trying to impinge their believe on the other.

Both sides are bias if you consider it carefully.

Qingu's avatar

@plethora, you said “I actually think that atheism is a perfectly defensible position, once the assumption of no God is made.”

Um, that’s not how it works. For the record. :)

Rangie's avatar

@Qingu so exactly where did you come from? Exactly what?

Silhouette's avatar

@zophu I’m plenty spirited, but I prefer not to waste that spirit on religious Vs atheism squabbles. I answer the questions about atheism without getting into any deep discussions. My atheism is not now, nor will it ever become my dogma. It’s not something I spend much time pondering and feel no need to prove the worth of this particular belief of mine. Wanna know what I believe about integrity, compassion, flexibility, respect, honesty, because these are my core beliefs and I’d be willing to face off on those, but religion and or atheism ain’t something worth debating as far as I’m concerned and I don’t really care who thinks it’s just me coping out. There are plenty of people who are very involved and personally invested in the religious vs. atheist battle I don’t think I’ll be missed.

JLeslie's avatar

@DocteurAville @plethora As an atheist I am fine with the idea that God and science can exist together. Perfect example would be believing God created everythng in the universe and then let things roll. Evolution eventually leading to the many species on earth. It seems to me Christians will not even look at the science of evolution, they do not have to be mutually exclusive. There have been Catholic Popes who accept this idea, and all of my Catholic friends believe in the validity of evolution. I never ask someone to give up their belief in God, I never argue God, I will however state my own personal view or belief about God if asked. Someone believing in God, is really not the big deal in my mind, it is following religion to the point that it is illogical that is frustrating, any religion. Even then, I don’t care what people want to believe if it makes them happy, as long as they don’t bother anyone else. Most atheists are not trying to “convert” the theist in my opinion, or cram atheism, although they might think believing in God makes no sense, but, it is two different things. I for one do not feel lack of proof does not mean something is not true. All I know as an atheist, for me, I never turn to God for help or guidance, it does not occur to me to do so.

Qingu's avatar

@Rangie, I’m not sure what you’re asking. From my parents?

Or are you trying to make the tired old argument that since something can’t come from nothing therefore a god, who mysteriously and hilariously violates this rule, must have created the universe.

Rangie's avatar

@Qingu I think you have a shallow attitude and expression about this issue. And I prefer not to quibble with you over it.

Qingu's avatar

Okay, but you did quibble with me over it. Did you mean “I prefer not to quibble with you over it anymore?”

Rangie's avatar

@Qingu I think on this subject, we should it be what it is, and call it a day.

zophu's avatar

@Silhouette: Spirited people don’t worry about “wasting their spirit”. But, I understand what you’re saying. It’s usually best not to argue.

Silhouette's avatar

@zophu Alright, maybe a better word choice would have been time. I prefer not to waste my time on religion. :o)

DocteurAville's avatar

JLeslie
I have been following this tension for sometime, as I find it interesting. Both sides trying to convert. It’s interesting see this going on, in the XXI century. How many gods are there? How many interpretations to a text that is man made. How many more pictures to figure there is black hole in the center of the milky-way; how many fish species, fossils, Lucy going back three million something years, the Neanderthal gone because its vocal cords were shorter… —according to the scholars — and, as a matter of introduction The Abominable Squid from Hell, which is a vampire squid there is around for a long long time. How about the singular species in Galapagos islands? There are species over there that are unique, like this unbelievable iguana that knows how to swim and eat algae of the sea. There is no other iguana in the world that has such a behavior.

In the other hand Jupiter, Hermes, Poseidon, Osiris, Anubis among many others are all but gone.

Qingu's avatar

Jupiter the planet is so much cooler than the god. Or any god, really.

A liquid metal ocean and a 300+ year old storm 3x as big as earth > guy who can’t win a battle against a tribe with iron chariots.

JLeslie's avatar

@DocteurAville I’m sorry, I am not sure what you are getting at? It was the Galapagos Islands that Darwin used to further his theory of evolution, are you saying the unique species on these islands show proof to the contrary?

And, lets not talk about 2,000 years ago and who was converting who, lets talk about today. In history it was ok to burn witches at the stake, so what?

mattbrowne's avatar

Because ethical questions, codes of conduct and the ultimate why questions are capable of touching us emotionally.

DocteurAville's avatar

JLeslie,

There wasn’t and there will never be a “proof”. It is absurd. The point is, values.

Religion is “culture”. When we start referring to it as such the mambo-jambo will end.

JLeslie's avatar

@DocteurAville I still am not getting you. Do you mean proof of God existing? I said proof of God is not important to me. If people want to believe fine, if not, fine. Belief in God for me is not the big argument, if we are going to go back to the orginal question, it is religion itself and how it is applied. How many Christians do I know that say the bible is the exact word of God? That thinking is ridiculous and annoying. Studying the bible, trying to understand what Jesus wanted or intended is fine. But, to say every word is the word of God is simply impossible. It was written years after Jesus’ death, it was not written in English, and things are always lost in translation, even Old English to today’s English can lose meaning.

I’m not trying to pick on the Christians this is true for other relgions also. In Judaism it is impossible in modern day to follow every word commanded by God.

So, since no one can realistically follow Gods word to the letter as written in the holy scriptures it makes no sense to insist that a specific sentence in the bible is literal to serve someones purpose. Like holding onto creationism, hating homosexuals, etc. The bible was simply written during a different time. It does not mean it is not worth reading, or that there are not good lessons within its’ text. Just because one part of the bible is proven to not be true, or not be realistic, does not mean we have to throw the entire book out.

Rangie's avatar

I don’t think they love to argue, as much as they are not only trying to convince the other person, but they are still trying to convince themselves of something they can’t prove.

DocteurAville's avatar

JLeslie,
Yes dear, that all this is. We have books that can enlighten us and can also serve opportunists. I for one don’t judge what you stand for, you are free to choose what is best for you.

JLeslie's avatar

@DocteurAville I am not standing for anything. That is what I think you don’t get. You stand for something, so you assume I am.

DocteurAville's avatar

Well dear, then we are at the same page. Live in let live. That is tolerance.

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