Social Question

zen_'s avatar

Could this story from Denmark, a Western society, happen to the United States?

Asked by zen_ (6248points) September 10th, 2010

It’s happening in neighbouring Canada.

9/11 is upon us once again – that horrible reminder of Jihad and everything wrong with Islam.

But this “stealth Jihad” is even scarier. Read on – it’s long, but worth it:

SALUTE to Denmark .. This could very well happen here on our continent… Susan MacAllen is a contributing editor for (FamilySecurityMatters.org)
Salute the Danish Flag – it’s a Symbol of Western Freedom By Susan MacAllen
In 1978–9 I was living and studying in Denmark . But in 1978 – even in Copenhagen, one didn’t see Muslim immigrants.

The Danish population embraced visitors, celebrated the exotic, went out of its way to protect each of its citizens. It was proud of its new brand of socialist liberalism one in development since the conservatives had lost power in 1929 – a system where no worker had to struggle to survive, where one ultimately could count upon the state as in, perhaps, no other western nation at the time.

The rest of Europe saw the Scandinavians as free-thinking, progressive and infinitely generous in their welfare policies. Denmark boasted low crime rates, devotion to the environment, a superior educational system and a history of humanitarianism.

Denmark was also most generous in its immigration policies – it offered the best welcome in Europe to the new immigrant: generous welfare payments from first arrival plus additional perks in transportation, housing and education. It was determined to set a world example for inclusiveness and multiculturalism. How could it have predicted that one day in 2005 a series of political cartoons in a newspaper would spark violence that would leave dozens dead in the streets -all because its commitment to multiculturalism would come back to bite?

By the 1990’s the growing urban Muslim population was obvious – as was its unwillingness to integrate into Danish society. Years of immigrants had settled into Muslim-exclusive enclaves. As the Muslim leadership became more vocal about what they considered the decadence of Denmark ‘s liberal way of life, the Danes – once so welcoming – began to feel slighted. Many Danes had begun to see Islam as incompatible with their long-standing values: belief in personal liberty and free speech, in equality for women, in tolerance for other ethnic groups, and a deep pride in Danish heritage and history.

An article by Daniel Pipes and Lars Hedegaard, in which they accurately forecast, that the growing immigrant problem in Denmark would explode. In the article they reported:

‘Muslim immigrants constitute 5 percent of the population but consume upwards of 40 percent of the welfare spending.’ ‘Muslims are only 4 percent of Denmark’s 5..4 million people but make up a majority of the country’s convicted rapists, an especially combustible issue given that practically all the female victims are non-Muslim. Similar, if lesser, disproportions are found in other crimes.’

‘Over time, as Muslim immigrants increase in numbers, they wish less to mix with the indigenous population. A recent survey found that only 5 percent of young Muslim immigrants would readily marry a Dane.’

‘Forced marriages – promising a newborn daughter in Denmark to a male cousin in the home country, then compelling her to marry him, sometimes on pain of death – are one problem’

‘Muslim leaders openly declare their goal of introducing Islamic law once Denmark’s Muslim population grows large enough – a not-that-remote prospect.. If present trends persist, one sociologist estimates, every third inhabitant of Denmark in 40 years will be Muslim.’

It is easy to understand why a growing number of Danes would feel that Muslim immigrants show little respect for Danish values and laws. An example is the phenomenon common to other European countries and Canada: some Muslims in Denmark who opted to leave the Muslim faith have been murdered in the name of Islam, while others hide in fear for their lives. Jews are also threatened and harassed openly by Muslim leaders in Denmark, a country where once Christian citizens worked to smuggle out nearly all of their 7,000 Jews by night to Sweden – before the Nazis could invade. I think of my Danish friend Elsa – who, as a teenager, had dreaded crossing the street to the bakery every morning under the eyes of occupying Nazi soldiers – and I wonder what she would say today.

In 2001, Denmark elected the most conservative government in some 70 years – one that had some decidedly non-generous ideas about liberal, unfettered immigration. Today Denmark has the strictest immigration policies in Europe . ( Its effort to protect itself has been met with accusations of ‘racism’ by liberal media across Europe – even as other governments struggle to right the social problems wrought by years of too-lax immigration.)

If you wish to become Danish, you must attend three years of language classes. You must pass a test on Denmark ‘s history, culture, and a Danish language test .

You must live in Denmark for 7 years before applying for citizenship.

You must demonstrate an intent to work, and have a job waiting. If you wish to bring a spouse into Denmark , you must both be over 24 years of age, and you won’t find it so easy anymore to move your friends and family to Denmark with you. You will not be allowed to build a mosque in Copenhagen . Although your children have a choice of some 30 Arabic culture and language schools in Denmark , they will be strongly encouraged to assimilate to Danish society in ways that past immigrants weren’t.

In 2006, the Danish minister for employment, Claus Hjort Frederiksen, spoke publicly of the burden of Muslim immigrants on the Danish welfare system, and it was horrifying: the government’s welfare committee had calculated that if immigration from Third World countries were blocked, 75 percent of the cuts needed to sustain the huge welfare system in coming decades would be unnecessary. In other words, the welfare system, as it existed, was being exploited by immigrants to the point of eventually bankrupting the government. ‘We are simply forced to adopt a new policy on immigration’.

‘The calculations of the welfare committee are terrifying and show how unsuccessful the integration of immigrants has been up to now,’ he said. A large thorn in the side of Denmark ‘s imams is the Minister of Immigration and Integration, Rikke Hvilshoj.. She makes no bones about the new policy toward immigration, ‘The number of foreigners coming to the country makes a difference,’ Hvilshoj says, ‘There is an inverse correlation between how many come here and how well we can receive the foreigners that come’ And on Muslim immigrants needing to demonstrate a willingness to blend in, ‘In my view, Denmark should be a country with room for different cultures and religions. Some values, however, are more important than others. We refuse to question democracy, equal rights and freedom of speech.’

Hvilshoj has paid a price for her show of backbone.. Perhaps to test her resolve, the leading radical imam in Denmark, Ahmed Abdel Rahman Abu Laban, demanded that the government pay blood money to the family of a Muslim who was murdered in a suburb of Copenhagen, stating that the family’s thirst for revenge could be thwarted for money. When Hvilshoj dismissed his demand, he argued that in Muslim culture the payment of retribution money was common, to which Hvilshoj replied that what is done in a Muslim country is not necessarily what is done in Denmark.

The Muslim reply came soon after: her house was torched while she, her husband and children slept. All managed to escape unharmed, but she and her family were moved to a secret location and she and other ministers were assigned bodyguards for the first time – in a country where such murderous violence was once so scarce.. Her government has slid to the right, and her borders have tightened.
Many believe that what happens in the next decade will determine whether Denmark survives as a bastion of good living, humane thinking and social responsibility, or whether it becomes a nation at civil war with supporters of Sharia law.

And meanwhile, Canadians clamor for stricter immigration policies, and demand an end to state welfare programs that allow many immigrants to live on the public dole. As we in Canada look at the enclaves of Muslims amongst us, and see those who enter our shores too easily, dare live on our taxes, yet refuse to embrace our culture, respect our traditions, participate in our legal system, obey our laws, speak our language, appreciate our history .. we would do well to look to Denmark and say a prayer for her future and for our own..

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47 Answers

CMaz's avatar

It already is.

Amazing how an open door policy will eventually leave you outside a locked door.

Qingu's avatar

Fear-mongering over immigrants has been happening in America since the 1700’s.

First it was the Germans, then the Irish, then the Italians, the Jews, and now it’s the Mexicans. All these waves of immigrants who will change our demographics without adapting their culture to ours—lions and tigers and bears, oh my!

In 20 years perhaps right-wingers in America will get over the Mexicans and start worrying about the Muslims, like right-wingers in Europe are apparently doing.

zen_'s avatar

@qinqu At least your Jewish grandparents respected the rules and customs, and their grandchildren now speak English well-enough to even denounce their religion. Go marry an Arab girl – then we’ll talk seriously. Efes.

CMaz's avatar

the Germans, the Irish, the Italians. Notice I’m leaving the Jews out.
Became part of the melting pot.

Culture is one thing. Religion is another.
I believe that the Jewish population blended in because of them being keepers of the old testament. (yes contradiction) Having a willingness to adapt to the culture and environment they called home. Truly an exception and exceptional..

Some religious cultures are so absolute that they take over. Forcing out the weak and injecting their beliefs on everyone. Accumulating masses and overpowering that which provided them a home to begin with.

Qingu's avatar

@zen_, are you trying to Jewish guilt trip me?

Not all Jewish immigrants assimilated perfectly (neither did the Germans, the Irish, the Italians, or the Mexicans) and Americans of eras of yore wrote invectives about them, too.

@ChazMaz, religion is a cultural practice, just like language or “our thing” in the Italian immigrant community.

I agree that on the balance, immigrants should assimilate rather than live in walled-off enclaves. But considering the history of immigration—and the parallel history of Americans bloviating about its dangers and then being proved reactionary and nonsensical—I think we ought to have learned to chill out about it by now.

mammal's avatar

immigration is problematic period, mass influx of people from one culture or ethnicity into another is inevitably going to create tension.

In Britain for example the doors were wide open post war, why? because there was a labour shortage after the depletion of men post WWII, but also for dubious economic reasons, more labour means cheaper wages, means greater profit margins. I have to ask the question why was Denmark so receptive? i suspect for exactly the same reasons, to kick start The Economy that would be the Capitalist Economy. Well if you operate along those lines, ie more concerned with profit motive than social responsibility, eventually the chickens are going to come home to roost. It’s all about profiteering and competition.

plethora's avatar

‘Muslim leaders openly declare their goal of introducing Islamic law once Denmark’s Muslim population grows large enough – a not-that-remote prospect

This is THE ultimate purpose of Muslim immigration.

Hawaii_Jake's avatar

The recent pandering of many in the US toward a rabidly reactionary pastor to keep him from burning books which happen to be Korans shows that public opinion in the Muslim world is already having an effect on the rights of Americans to express themselves freely. Personally, I deplore the burning of books, but I have a higher regard for freedom of speech/expression.

The US is fortunate to have a long history of separation of church and state. We are all free to worship or not worship as we see fit. But we are equally fortunate to have an independent judiciary that is willing to apply the law equally to all residents of the country. I doubt seriously that an attempt to set up a separate justice system of sharia law would prevail here. It would be met with derision.

Immigration is a question that has plagued us from the colonial era. As has already been pointed out by other answers, various groups from time to time have been the target of anti-immgration sentiment. If we look closely at what has forced immigrants to adapt to the overall culture in the US, it is economic necessity. The desire to get ahead financially is a powerful force even among the most recalcitrant immigrants who cling to their own cultures. One only has to think of the Chinese enclaves in large cities that have been around for a hundred years or more to realize that some groups integrate less well than others.

But this has not stopped them from integrating to a degree where they are respectful of US law, because they recognize that it protects their financial investments.

As long as the almighty dollar reigns in the hearts of its people, then there will be a degree of peace.

Qingu's avatar

@plethora, all Muslim immigrants want to introduce shariah law?

And you know this how?

This sounds strikingly similar to the assertion that all Catholic immigrants to America wanted the Vatican to rule instead of the Constitution.

http://csudigitalhumanities.org/exhibits/archive/square_thumbnails/ganges1876_d321751354.jpg

tinyfaery's avatar

I wouldn’t trust the opinions or data of Family Security Matters if you paid me. Typical.

tedd's avatar

When you get people together with different cultures races and religions, unfortunately there is some initial “friction.”

Don’t worry, it’ll all settle down…. when we find aliens…..

YoBob's avatar

Of course it can. In fact, it already is.

However, at the moment, in my part of the country it is illegal immigrants from the South that are utilizing the same tactics to, in effect, take over the Southern U.S. in what amounts to a silent invasion.

But I digress… Yes, there are even cities and states right here in the good old USA that have already been maneuvered into accepting Shara law as administered by Islamic arbitrators as an alternative to our traditional legal system.

Thammuz's avatar

See what talking to imaginary friends does to people?

But, all jokes aside, i’ve always been in favour of deportation from any country, provided good reasons are given, for any immigrant, not only muslim ones.

I honestly don’t undersand what’s so hard and wrong about this idea: you behave yourself, you can stay; you start shit, you’re going home. It’s simple, it’s pragmatic and, i agree, not necessarily ethically correct but it does the job without stereotyping people. No nation has the obligation to accept immigrants unless it has imposed it on itself and, even then, constitutions can change if need be.

That 75% (Doubtful number, by the way) of convicted rapists shouldn’t even be convicted in Denmark, sucking more money out of the state, they should’ve been fined for all their shit, both in and out of denmark, as a reparation for their ingrate behaviour from a country that welcomed them while bing in no obligation to do so, then put on a cargo ship and sent back to whatever shithole they moved out of.

And by the way, in the case of islamic immigrants, if their religion is so good and our nations are so shit, why the fuck are they still moving here? Send them back and see how they like it.

In fact, ban them from the EU altogether if they commit a crime. We’re a somewhat homogenous community and we can agree that the basic laws are the same in every country so, instead of banning them from denmark, let’s show a united front and stop fucking around for once. That is assuming they come from outside the EU, obviously.

Open door policy with kick-out option, that would be best.

@Qingu I don’t agree with @plethora but i have to say, i’d be far less uncomfortable with the muslim community if i actually saw some kind of upheval AGAINST the sociopathic behaviour displayed by what i’m constantly told, and never proved, are just extremists. Instead what i see in my country is teenagers taken in custody because their father beat them into near unconsciousness, people beating the shit out of eachother for no good reason (admittedly a very italian behaviour, probably the one thing our average specimen have in common) And nothing else.

Luckily no violent protests either, but that is likely because our police force sends around 10 born and raised italians to the hospital every time there’s a violent (or even sweary) political demonstration, and 90% of our policemen are racist fascist dicks with massive hard ons for violence, creating an environment that is not exactly immigrant friendly to begin with.

CMaz's avatar

The great Biblical apocalypse will be that of clashing Christians and Muslims.

mammal's avatar

i don’t know about anyone else but i am getting sick and tired of all this anti Muslim Rhetoric.

plethora's avatar

@Qingu You may have forgotten. You and I do not engage on Fluther.

plethora's avatar

@mammal And why are you tired of it? (oh….and did you read the entire question?)

Qingu's avatar

@Thammuz, Islamic backlash against fundamentalism exists, it’s just not widely reported by the media because it doesn’t sell well.

The Sufi imam in charge of the so-called “ground zero mosque” is one prominent example, so is Hamza Yusuf. Westernized Muslims in America certainly exist and actually seem to be the norm here.

zen_'s avatar

Has anyone read the Arabic version of the book by Sufi Imam that wants to erect the mosque at ground zero? Or just the translation of the title – because it’s very different from the English version – which you haven’t read either.

zen_'s avatar

Feisal Abdul Rauf, What’s Right with Islam: a New Vision for Muslims and the West (HarperCollins, 2004) ISBN 978–0060582722, reissued as What’s Right with Islam Is What’s Right with America (HarperCollins, 2005) ISBN 9780060750626. (An Indonesian language edition was published in 2007, titled Seruan Azan Dari Puing WTC: Dakwah Islam di Jantung Amerika Pasca 9/11, which translates as A Call to Prayer from the WTC Rubble: Islamic Dawah from the Heart of America Post 911

Naivetee is lovely, for 14 year old girls. Not for men.

Qingu's avatar

Okay, I’ll bite. What on earth do you think this is supposed to prove?

zen_'s avatar

Read the book.

ZEN OUT

Qingu's avatar

Read what book, the original English one he wrote?

Or the translation (presumably in Indonesian) that you apparently think has a scary sounding title?

I take it you’ve read both, judging from your commentary?

Thammuz's avatar

@Qingu I’m not talking about prominent figures, i mean the community. People organizing protests against the several disgraceful acts committed by “muslim extremists”.

During the tide of sex scandals the catholic church had to endure you can bet your arse the catholic community here in italy was raving mad and quite vocally so. I just don’t see that happening when muslims do something.

Maybe you’re right, maybe it is the media, i don’t know. For now all i know is i didn’t see it.

Qingu's avatar

What Catholic groups organized protests against the sex scandals? I didn’t notice any.

Thammuz's avatar

I’m talking about here i have no idea of what happens in america, what i know is that many church groups, not necessarily led by priests, organized social events of some description, to debate the cause of those events and seek possible causes. A friend of mine is a memeber of one of the two prominent italian catholic youth groups and they held open debates about the matter, to the point that our national TV mentioned it at some point. (Not much, obviously, we have far pettier bullshit to cover, like who’s fucking who in the vip world.) The point being that there was a good measure of news outlets and sources that repported discontent in the italian catholic populace.

I know this doesn’t say shit to you, because catholics are far fewer in the US but, here, if one of those two groups mobilitates, it’s a big fucking deal for the church, because they pretty much take 50/50 of italian hardcore catholics.

Which might in itself be the point, i guess. Minorities don’t make the news, but seems to me that in a climate of such political tension a media outlet with a strand of integrity (which is an oxymoron, now that i think about it) wouldn’t pass up a chance to prove that it is, in fact, true that not all muslims are dangerous sociopaths.

I’m not really disagreeing with you, all i’m saying is that i share the feeling of unease that @plethora exposed.

I know it’s false or, at least, i doubt it’s true that all muslims are murdering fanatics waiting for the opportunity to take over the world. What i’m saying is that the media sure isn’t helping me keep this doubt alive, and probably that’s where we should start in order to fix the problem.

Making the media unbiased: The ultimate frontier movie trailer voice optional

Jaxk's avatar

Immigration laws are designed to insure that the immigrants are able to assimilate into the population. When immigration becomes too heavy there are problems. We saw it with the Italians, Germans, Poles, Chinese, and so on. But there was no welfare state during those times. If you were a foreigner, you had to assimilate to survive. If you didn’t have a job, you died. There was no big brother to help you through the rough spots.

Now things are different. Our immigration rate is higher (both legal and illegal) and if you need assistance, food stamps, health care, education, rent, and so forth, can be provided. Maybe not live in the lap of luxury but still much better than some of the third world countries. The easier we make it to NOT assimilate, the more people won’t make that effort and the more drain on our economy. We have been creating separate societies within our society for years.

The problems with Denmark should be a cold slap in the face. The same problems are spread across Europe and rising in the US. Immigration is not supposed to be welfare, it is supposed to be opportunity. Opportunity for both the immigrants and the country. Uncontrolled immigration benefits neither. We allow almost 1 million legal residents each year. Right or wrong, that is designed to be a rate we can handle. Most countries are requiring the immigrant to have employment so as not to burden the system. We need this under control lest we lose our country. Enforce the law, it’s there for a reason. Encourage those that come in to become Americans, not Muslim-Americans or Chinese-Americans or Mexican-Americans. The hyphen separates us in a way that is difficult to over come.

Tomfafa's avatar

just google rape jihad and you get a million hits… In europe (or some country) more than 50% of child rapists are named mohamed. The religion of peace honors its prophet.

mammal's avatar

@plethora i’m tired of prejudiced people like you, not assuming i read the entire piece, that would in itself notify me, if not the rest of fluther that you are bigoted to the bone, but in particular i’m nauseatingly tired at the overall tenor of this Danish story that somehow portrays Denmark as a happy Hans Christian Anderson world that was raped to death by dirty, Arab immigrants.

plethora's avatar

@mammal You think I’m prejudiced? Aw c’mon. Those dirty Islamic immigrants didnt do all that stuff? Well, who did?

mammal's avatar

@plethora As-Salaam-Alaikum….

Thammuz's avatar

@plethora well, sure enough part of that policy was self defeating: a state doesn’t have infinite resources and, if there are more immigrants than it can pay for, it’s immediate that the treatement will have to be dialed down progressively, eventually reaching “no money for anyone, sorry”

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@plethora “Those dirty Islamic immigrants didnt do all that stuff?” – yeah, I stopped reading right there.

truecomedian's avatar

This last part gets me “embrace our culture, respect our traditions, participate in our legal system, obey our laws, speak our language, appreciate our history”
it’s the “embrace our culture” and “appreciate our history” that get’s me. Damn, I’m on the fence with this one. What does it mean to embrace a culture, is’nt that what you don’t want, some foreigner all up in your Danish business. Sounds to me like the gist of this is slanted towards the fear of being taken over by another race. Why would you expect an invading people, to appreciate the history of the people they are invading. Easy, because Muslim’s are scholars, they value knowledge and arent afraid to do some crazy ass shit. They are outsmarting an entire country, that takes intelligence, it is not an accident, it is part of a global plan. Here in America we aren’t afraid to do some crazy ass shit too. That’s why this would be harder for them to do in America, because it’s a tougher here, especially after 9/11. I’m still fucked up over watching those buildings fall, it really changed me for the worse. All that being said, what is the author trying to say, just look at Southern California and their immigration problem. Sweden also has a problem like this. What can I say, I wish the white countries would stay white because it preserves their entire culture. I guess the times they are a changin.

plethora's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir That was a bit of friendly sarcasm to the post above mine. I don’t speak seriously in that manner..:)

Tomfafa's avatar

@truecomedian ‘Muslim’s are scholars, they value knowledge’ You really are the true comedian. You would call a religion that allows a 12 year old running away from her 60 year old husband, to get her ears and nose cut off, scholars?

Qingu's avatar

@Tomfafa, first of all, even among Salafi Muslims, what you described is considered un-Islamic; the Taliban are not even representative of their own crazy sect.

Secondly, you do realize that the Bible also says women are the property of men, right? The Bible is every bit as backwards as the Quran.

I agree that neither the Bible nor the Quran lend themselves to having a “scholarly” view of the world because they are backwards bronze-age myths and laws. However, most Christians today ignore most of the Bible and pick out the good-sounding parts. Muslims are 600 years behind Christians in their progress, but a sizable number of Muslims do the same thing. And for most of the middle ages, Muslims were much more technologically and educationally advanced than Christians.

Tomfafa's avatar

@Qingu Why do I get myself into this…
First… the bible. I know the old testament as a historical narative, for instance, the israelis have returned just about every animal referenced in the bible, back to the desert… some after thousands of years. We both know how jews feel about education. (knowledge) I know how jews treat women, children, neighbors etc. since the time of the ten commandments. We should pick out the good parts and learn from those.
...
Arabs were more advanced than europeans for a long time… in medicine, in treatment of women etc. But muslims NEVER were. I believe in the human spirit that makes people good. Maybe during the ‘golden age of islam’ (so called) when they temporarily halted the masacres… they flourished.
....
My problem is with islam… the so called religion… the cult of death… the cult of pedophilia… of paranoia… of murder… of subjugation… of evil that even satan (if he was real) could not imagine.
....
This is my opinion… it started to develop when I was 5, I remember exactly. Maybe one day I’ll get sent to a ‘re-education’ camp… until then I expect the good people of islam to fight the evil within and it pisses me off when they don’t, but I can understand why.

Qingu's avatar

@Tomfafa, the problem with your opinion is that much of it is simply wrong.

The pre-Islamic Arabs were not more advanced than the Europeans. You have presumably heard of the Roman and Byzantine empires. Arab cultures only surpassed European cultures when they became part of the Islamic Empire. Muslims actually kept the knowledge of the ancient Greeks and Romans alive; later Europeans arrived at these text through Arabic translations, because they lost the originals during the “Dark Ages.”

I have no idea what you are talking about with the Bible’s “animals,” but the Bible also sanctions pedophelia (Moses commands his troops to keep young virgin girls for themselves “as booty” in Numbers 31), paranoia, murder, subjugation… the one main difference between the Bible and the Quran is that the Bible—unlike the Quran—actually commands genocide.

As you point out, Jews and Christians are quite adept at simply ignoring most of what the Bible says and picking out the few parts that line up with our liberal enlightened modern culture. Muslims are getting there. You are probably aware that religiosity corresponds inversely to education and economic development (which is why Europe and Japan are mostly secular); bear in mind that most Muslims live in relatively poor countries (often countries that have been subjugated by European colonialism). It’s harder to avoid the draw of fundamentalist cults when you’re poor and uneducated.

plethora's avatar

@Tomfafa There’s a lot here that we should take with a very large block of salt.

Tomfafa's avatar

@Qingu I know 31:18 but I do not play numbers (or word games) with you. You probably found some tidbit of lies on the net to justify your thoughts… good for you.
...
‘You are probably aware that religiosity corresponds inversely to education and economic development’... how do you explain the israeli jews?

truecomedian's avatar

@Tomfafa
I was just quoting the Catholic Encyclopedia.

Tomfafa's avatar

Of course we quote this and that when it suites us. I have been israeli for many, many generations… but I have also travel the world with an open heart and mind. Never have I seen a nation so longing to live in peace as I do when I am in israel… in song, in spirit, in mind and YES in deeds. As a nation we cut off parts of our bodies hoping it would lead to… you know.
We are ready… our counterparts are not… and they will never be as long as they are mesmerized by this cult of islum… as long as they allow the primordial part of their brain to control them. Maybe that part was needed in our distant past to keep us alive, but not anymore. Our species (humans) have come to the crossroad in time when we should be reaching for the heavens physically, spiritually and intellectually.

iamthemob's avatar

@Tomfafa

I’m sorry – “as long as they allow the primordial part of their brain to control them”? That doesn’t sound like you are approaching anything with an open mind. I’ve seen plenty of Israeli people who have reacted in primordial…and arguably hateful and insular…ways in my time.

I think that these kinds of generalizations are what disturb me about this thread, and which is why I’ve stayed out of it until now.

Qingu's avatar

@Tomfafa, feel free to look up the chapter and verse I cited. It’s not a numbers game.

I’m not sure what Israeli Jews you’re talking about. Here in America, Jews are educated, but they’re also incredibly secular (many Jews are essentially atheists and only identify as “Jews” as some sort of ethnicitiy, not a religion).

Certainly my Hasidic step-cousins are poorly educated; the boys were only educated in Jewish religious studies and the girls lack any education beyond 6th grade. (There’s 11 of them—that’s another thing you can count on religious people for: poor educations, but they love to pop out the kids.) I haven’t looked up the education levels of the settlers in Israel and Palestine but I imagine they are rather poorly educated, judging from their behavior and worldview.

I agree with you that ignorant, barbaric cultists are the greatest enemies of peace in the middle east; I do think it’s kind of cute, in a sad way, that you don’t see the ignorant cultists among your fellow Israelis. The reason most Israelis aren’t as bad in this regard is because most Jews aren’t religious. Those that are, however, aren’t much better than Hamas.

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