General Question

KatawaGrey's avatar

What do you know about the religious condemnation of homosexuality?

Asked by KatawaGrey (21360 points ) April 14th, 2009

In my human sexuality class today, we were talking about religious condemnation of homosexuality, namely Christianity and Judaism. My professor pointed out that maybe one of the reasons Christianity condemns homosexuality is because, originally, it was a way to further squeeze out the pagans. I have also heard that homosexuality is actively condemned in the bible. Does anyone know the passages that condemn homosexuality?

My professor also spoke about Judaism and he thinks that when Judaism came about, it did not condemn homosexuality but extra-marital sex and homosexuality tended to fall under this broader category. What does the collective know and/or think of this?

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136 Answers

ShauneP82's avatar

I took a closer look at the pdf. I little to inaccurate. But the passages should help. I apologize for the bad link.

The thing I personally have to disagree with is how classes look at the christian faith as something that humanity made up. I know that this is the only way for academia to logically accept the existance of a deity in a persons life, but…I see things as if God actually exists. So to say the condemnation of homosexuality is was to push out pagans is a little stupid from my perspective.

The reason homosexuality is condemned is because it is a sin, just like almost everything else humanity does. It sucks I know, but thats nature of the beast. : ) Great question by the way!

• Genesis 19 (whole chapter)
• Leviticus 18 and 20
• Romans 1:18–32
• 1 Corinthians 6: 9–11
• 1 Thessalonians 4: 3–8
• 2 Peter 2
• Jude 7–8
• Revelation 22:15

Qingu's avatar

Leviticus 20:13:

If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them.

(Note that right before this passage, the Bible also calls for killing adulterers.)

(Note also that this passage only seems to outlaw male homosexuality. However, I believe Paul in the NT condemns female homosexuality as well, though I don’t recall the passage.)

Your professor could be right about differentiating themselves, which may go back to the Hebrews. The ancient Babylonians did not have laws against homosexuality, as far as I know. So in this regard, the Bible is less progressive than the wider culture at the time. Another difference between the Babylonians and the Hebrews were their views on population control. The Babylonian flood myth (identical in many respects to Genesis) is basically a warning against overpopulation. But in the Bible, after the flood, God tells Noah to “go forth and multiply.” So this might explain why these cultures had different views on homosexuality—one wanted to limit its population, while the other wanted to have as many kids as possible.

As far as extra-marital sex, I don’t think that’s accurate. Not only is the above passage a pretty clear condemnation of gay sex, but in the Bible, men could freely have extramarital sex—as long as it wasn’t with someone else’s wife. Adultery was basically a property offense, and women were considered the property of their husbands. You only “commit adultery” if you are sleeping with someone else’s property (or if you are, in fact, that property and are sleeping with anyone else).

willbrawn's avatar

Homosexuality is a sin and not approved by God because its carnal. We are suppose to put off the natural man and let our spirits control our bodies, not let them run free.

Also homeosexuality, does not allow children to come into the world. He come into this world to recieve a body and to be tested. And in order to do that, man and woman need to have children. It frustrates God’s plan. And weither you like it or not, God ways our higher than ours.

Judi's avatar

Romans 1:26–28 is a good verse to start if you want to know the ammunition that is used. They often neglect 1 Corinthians 5:12— “What business is it of mine to judge those outside the Church? Are we not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside.”

Qingu's avatar

@ShauneP82 and @willbrawn, you know what else is a sin?

Refusing to commit genocide against the Canaanites. (Deuteronomy 20:16).

I don’t think either of you are in any position to lecture people about morality. Just saying.

willbrawn's avatar

@Qingu God’s way our higher than ours. We are his, and he has a plan. When his people need to flourish he will destroy the wicked for the good to prevail.

KatawaGrey's avatar

@willbrawn: I’m sorry if this question offends you so much, as it appears to based on your defensive reaction. A gut reaction is not an answer to the question. Why is it carnal? Isn’t any kind of sex carnal? If we are condemning it because it does not allow children to come into the world, then why don’t we condemn the infertile and the sterile? How about the people who are perfectly able to have children but choose not to?

@Qingu: What I find interesting is how it is physically impossible for a man to lie with a man as he would lie with a woman. The parts simply aren’t right. It’s like saying, “Don’t eat the skin of an apple because the skin of an orange is too tough to chew.”

@Judi: Thank you for the passages. I have never read the bible myself but I do have a copy and wish to read it.

@ShauneP82: I would just like to say that even though I disagree with your views I appreciate your answer and the material you provided.

Qingu's avatar

@willbrawn, I know I know, you’re just folloving orders. Far be it for you to condemn a book that commands genocide.

I was simply saying that people might not care what someone who is okay with genocide thinks about homosexuality.

Qingu's avatar

@KatawaGrey, heh, I guess I never thought of it that way. Though I wouldn’t take the passage that literally. I ‘spose we could go to the original Hebrew word, but I have trouble believing the law means anything other than condemning gay sex. Laws are intended to be functional—it doesn’t make sense to have laws against things that cannot happen.

Judi's avatar

@willbrawn ; Go back and read 1 Corinthians 1:5 before you say anything else! read everything preceeding it too, but pay special atention to that verse. We are in a public forum here.

ShauneP82's avatar

@Qingu I think you need a hug. The passages of the old testament were law. Christ who died for me is above that law. He is the new law. He said love one another as you love yourself and your God. Therefore, I love you. : D

willbrawn's avatar

@KatawaGrey Naturally Man is suppose to be with women. Thats nature, homosexuality is challenge of the natural body. Its your choice weither you give in to your temptation or you choose to resist and follow God.

God will help you through your challenges, he will never give you something you cannot overcome.

ShauneP82's avatar

@KatawaGrey Thank you for asking the question. I think it is healthly and great to exercise our opinions in discourse. This in itself is evangelism. Wonderful, just wonderful. : D

KatawaGrey's avatar

@willbrawn: But why is it natural to be that way? Did God actually say that homosexuality is unnatural or does he simply condemn it? Also, why does he condemn it? What is so wrong with it? (I’m not trying to be antagonistic, I am truly curious)

@ShauneP82: I agree that we need to discuss our opinions. You are doing it in a very healthy way and I appreciate this a great deal. Feel free to respond to any of my comments directed at other people.

Qingu's avatar

@ShauneP82, are you saying Jesus abolished the law?

@willbrawn, homosexuality is natural. People in every human society do it, as do many animals. Also, do you believe in birth control? Or infertile people having sex? I find it ridiculous that you think having lots of kids is so important in a world with 6.5 billion people on it.

Judi's avatar

@Qingu ; I think Jesus Fulfilled the law.

willbrawn's avatar

@KatawaGrey here is a link to my beliefs by a leader from my church. Hope is helps explain my point of view, sorry if I didnt do it well.

http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/public-issues/same-gender-attraction

fixed link

ShauneP82's avatar

@KatawaGrey I do not pretend to have all the answers to this sort of thing, but I would like to share my thoughts on the message that you aimed at @willbrawn.

I think it can be seen as unatural due to the lack of reproduction through homosexuality. However, if you look a primates it has been found that both sexes will comfort each other in sexual intercourse. I would think what seperates us from the primates is our ability to choose. This choice is a gift from God. Just the same as I choose to be who I am and you choose to be who you are.

@Qingu it is written that Christ did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it.

KatawaGrey's avatar

@willbrawn: The link didn’t work, but I would very much like to read this. Could you send it again?

@ShauneP82: So do you believe that homosexuality is a choice?

Qingu's avatar

@ShauneP82, so do you still believe we should all commit genocide against the unbelievers living in the holy land, like the non-abolished, fulfilled law commands?

Judi's avatar

@KatawaGrey ; I think he is saying that sex is a choice. Not sexual preference.

willbrawn's avatar

@katawagrey it’s working now.

ShauneP82's avatar

@Qingu No I think we should love one another like the Lord commanded.

Qingu's avatar

@ShauneP82, but the Lord also commanded genocide. So are you saying Jesus did abolish that law, then?

Or maybe you can lovingly commit genocide?

ShauneP82's avatar

@KatawaGrey I am saying that sex is a choice. How we choose to have sex is a choice. Whether it is right or wrong is not for me to judge. It is like what I have been trying to tell @Qingu, we should love one another regardless if I think its sinful or not. If a man sleeps with another man he is still a man. He doesn’t change into a three eyed monster.

That is what it means to be a Christian. Love!

Qingu's avatar

@ShauneP82, I don’t really see how that answers my question.

And I want to get an answer from you because your opposition to genocide comes from God’s commandments. And yet here you are expressing significant hesitation about following some of those commandments. Are the commandments abolished and replaced with “love”? Or aren’t they?

ShauneP82's avatar

@Qingu if it will get you through the day…yes love is the greatest of all Gods commandments. If given the choice to love you or to kill you merely because you are…whatever it is you are claiming to be…I choose to love you.

Do you want me to kill you? : D

oratio's avatar

The church claims eternal morality. Since many vices of today weren’t vices of yesterday, and many vices of yesterday aren’t vices of today, I think it’s proven that such a thing doesn’t exist. Morality changes between cultures and different times. But the bible doesn’t. Either you have to interpret the bible in a new way, or put it away.

By saying that god’s way is higher than ours, and we can’t understand them, but he has a plan, makes excuses for anything. Anything.

If god won’t be responsible for his actions, why should we? Cause he is the ultimate truth and has a purpose? It’s a the-ends-justify-the-means-god then. I think we can do without that.

Homosexuals hurt no-one. What is the problem with people loving each other?

I have no idea how this god has made it in our culture as long as he has, being such a dick.

crisw's avatar

@ShauneP82
“The thing I personally have to disagree with is how classes look at the christian faith as something that humanity made up. ”
Well, that’s because it is!

It isn’t because it’s the only way for academia to accept a deity, due to the fact that a good education is an unbiased one. In regards to a class on religions, would you be offended if the professor told the students that Zeus or Shiva were real? I’m sure you are an atheist when it comes to Zeus or Shiva or Zoroaster or Cernunnos, right? So why should the professor behave as though your particular god is real? From an unbiased logical standpoint. there’s no more evidence for the Christian god being real than for any of these other gods.

Qingu's avatar

So “love” abolishes the commandments about genocide… but not the commandments against homosexuality?

Not even if homosexuals love each other?

Pretty weird.

ShauneP82's avatar

@Qingu your asking me as if I am God. I suggest you pray about it and come to grips with it in your own way.

KatawaGrey's avatar

@ShauneP82: All right, I understand what you’re saying now. I think that’s a very good way of putting it. The choice is not to whom you are attracted but whether or not you act on that attraction.

@willbrawn: Thank you. I’m in class now, so I will try to read it as soon as I can.

@oratio: I think the bible did go through a revision. The new testament could be a revision of the ideas in the old testament. I think the problem is that we’re ready for another revision.

ShauneP82's avatar

@KatawaGrey Fantastic, my friend! Now if you could just help me with the @Qingu guy. LMAO!!

Likeradar's avatar

@ShauneP82 I’m curious, how do people know which of god’s laws are still relevant? Why homosexuality but not genocide?

KatawaGrey's avatar

@ShauneP82: I do agree. Personally, I think that the basic tenet of all religions is to love one another. Sure there are other rules, but if you don’t love one another, there is no point to follow the other rules.

Qingu's avatar

@ShauneP82, I just want to know why you feel you can quote the Old Testament to condemn homosexuality, while simultaneously ignoring all the other OT laws you don’t think are “loving,” like the ones commanding slavery and genocide. It seems extremely hypocritical to me.

willbrawn's avatar

@Likeradar I know God’s laws are revelant because he still talks to his children. Modern Revelation.

ShauneP82's avatar

@Likeradar I would like to sum it up with what I have already said a few times. Christ said to love one another. This is the greatest of all Gods commands. Love. I have many sins of my own to answer too. Yes I have evil in my heart. For me to condemn a homosexual would be more to it. I won’t do it.

Qingu's avatar

@willbrawn, which laws do you still think are relevant?

Why Lev. 20:13, but not Lev. 25:45 (which allows slavery)?

ShauneP82's avatar

@Qingu a question about homosexuality and what the bible says was asked. so I found scripture that mentions it. It says its a sin. Okay, it might me. But I am not going to throw my good friend who is Gay to the fire just because the bible says he is a sinner, because I am a sinner too.

Likeradar's avatar

@willbrawn Who qualifies as his children?

Qingu's avatar

@ShauneP82, would it be correct to say that you have just as much problem with homosexuals as you do with people who refuse to stone their unbeliever children to death?

Judi's avatar

I think I’ll stop following now. Instead of answering @KatawaGrey ‘s question this has turned into Christian bashing.

willbrawn's avatar

@Likeradar every human being on the planet

ShauneP82's avatar

@Qingu I don’t say I have a problem with anybody. Children are young and have yet to experience the world. I know of many people who have become believers very late in life.

Sorry man, your not gonna win. What do you want? LOL!!!

willbrawn's avatar

@Qingu the ones the Lord lays out for us. When you ask he will tell you. That is the reason i believe we have a modern day Prophet, who speaks with Lord.

Likeradar's avatar

@willbrawn With that logic, why hasn’t god told me homosexuality is a sin? (I know I have different beliefs than you do, and I’m not trying to argue or convince you… I just really don’t get your type of view.) edit: I don’t get the logic behind your views.

Qingu's avatar

@ShauneP82, I want you to stop believing that homosexuality is a sin. That belief is irrational and damaging to the fabric of our society.

ShauneP82's avatar

@Qingu Our society was already damaged. Long before what I think came into play. I think you want radicals that are out their shouting how gays and lesbians are going to burn in hell to stop thinking homosexuality is a sin. I am not one of them. I think stealing is a sin, I think porn is a sin, I think eating to much crap and not enough vegetables is a sin. Sin is not going to disappear just because you convince the world that it is okay. We will still recieve judgement in the after life Regardless if we believe God is out their or not.

oratio's avatar

Obviously homosexuality is not unnatural. It is a part of our human nature, since people has been homosexual throughout all of human history.

It not quite right to look at human sexuality solely as a reproduction system. Human sexuality – as many things when it comes to humans – are quite complex and to my knowledge, unique in nature.

The male and the female are in heat 24 hours a day, all year long. We have sex when we know that we can’t get pregnant, and often especially then. The female is not really efficient in getting pregnant, even without contraceptives. We often have to work to get pregnant.

So, we are not very efficient in creating offspring, but it has more than that purpose.

Human sexuality is used in our social interaction just as much to create bonds. It is a giving and receiving. It creates trust, makes up a big part of our social live, and all the bonds we create are what makes us – not only survive – but thrive.

Homosexuality fits in there. If they cannot have children it isn’t because it’s wrong to be homosexual. It is quite in the framework of being human, and human sexuality.

I assure you that there are more than enough children to go around to make up for the “loss”,

Qingu's avatar

@ShauneP82, do you vote based on this issue? Would you have supported Prop. 8 in California?

cwilbur's avatar

I’ve laid out the argument refuting a Biblical condemnation of homosexuality on Fluther at least twice. I really don’t want to go into it again, and face fundamentalists bashing me from one side and atheists (and one in particular) bashing me from the other. I recommend you do a search on older threads.

ShauneP82's avatar

@oratio Excellent argument.

ShauneP82's avatar

I think forcing people to do things they don’t want to do is stupid. Homosexuals want to get married let them, but if a church (house of God)says it is against their faith to marry two men. The homosexuals need to respect that not have some legal issue shoved down their throat says they either marry these people or they close their doors. If it was my church and somebody told me I had to do something I knew in the depths of my heart was wrong… I’d gladly close my doors and give the law a nice earth shattering bitch slap. he he he.

Qingu's avatar

@ShauneP82, I agree. I don’t think anyone is advocating that churches must marry homosexuals.

Would you vote based on this issue? Specifically, Prop. 8? You didn’t answer.

willbrawn's avatar

@Likeradar are you folling God’s commandments? I cannot answer these questions for you, but do you really want to know? Have you searched for answers in his word (the scriptures)? Have you decided already and want his approval? And most imporant what would you do with the answer he was to give to you? When God gives you a commandment and you know its true you follow it from that point on. Would you be willing to do that?

ShauneP82's avatar

@Qingu Oh…sorry. Granted I hate California and I don’t think an issue like this should be this big, but I don’t know much about Prop 8. I’d need to know more details to be honest.

KatawaGrey's avatar

@ShauneP82: One more clarification: It seems to me that you are saying that there a lot of things that humans do that are sinful and acting on homosexual impulses is one of these. Furthermore, it is not your place to judge anyone harshly based on how they have sinned and you believe that you should not stop people from sinning because it is God’s ultimate job to judge. Is this right? The original question has been kind of lost and I’m a little bit confused.

Qingu's avatar

@ShauneP82, do you think gays should be able to get married? That’s basically the gist of it.

Likeradar's avatar

@willbrawn No, I really wouldn’t. I’m leaning more and more towards atheism the more I learn about the bible and it’s strict followers. (that’s why I said I was just trying to figure out your logic, not argue or try to convince). You answered my question, I think, so thank you. :)

ShauneP82's avatar

@KatawaGrey You see this is where the real trouble starts in what people believe. I would hate to say I want to not stop people from sinning, but what if they don’t see it that way? I can’t in honesty say I want to not stop sin, but I would like at least let it be known that some beliefs and faith do not look upon this action favorably (whatever it is homosexuality, porn, stealing, etc.). It is a Christians mission to share the good news, as I am sure you have heard that phrase many times. That means evangelize, or share an idea; not force it.

This discourse is a great opportuinity of evangelism and I feel great because of it.

willbrawn's avatar

@Likeradar i think its different than how you think about it though. When you know someone is listening to your prayer, like really listening and cares its different. Also God is personal, he is not a powerful being who watches from a distant. He is involved in the details of your life and mine as well.

Likeradar's avatar

@willbrawn Back to me not wanting to argue or convince… If you believe in God, yippie. I hope you use your ideas for good, love, and acceptance.

oratio's avatar

@KatawaGrey
Judaism is against homosexuality, since the old testament – through the septuagint – is a translation from the Torah. Anyone saying something else has their own purpose of believing so.

Your professor might talk about before Moses books were written, but that is of course a pure speculation from his part then.

ShauneP82's avatar

@Qingu yeah, sure if they want. I can’t really say I approve, but I can’t stop them without causing my own faith and heart to be in jeopardy of sin.

Ivan's avatar

@ShauneP82 The “good news” that Jesus preached was peace and love. When I read the bible, I don’t get “follow this list of arbitrary rules” out of it.

ShauneP82's avatar

@Ivan Neither do I…did I write something confusing somewhere??

Qingu's avatar

@oratio, the Septuagint is a Greek translation of the Old Testament. It’s oftentimes used in modern translations because it’s one of the oldest sources we have. But I’m not sure why you brought it up.

@ShauneP82, well, I’m glad to hear that. But why would you not approve of two people who love each other getting married?

@Ivan, which Bible are you reading? Most of the first five books are rules, or threats for not following them. Much of the rest are stories about how the Hebrews and Israelites succeeded or failed to follow the rules, specifically the ones commanding them to commit genocide, and their respective punishments. The entire concept of sin in the New Testament—the thing Jesus is supposed to be saving us from—is “breaking God’s rules.” Also, Jesus didn’t preach peace, and his concept of love seems rather strangled in light of the rest of the religion.

tinyfaery's avatar

Hasn’t this topic been flogged to death already? If you believe in a certain interpretation of a religion, you wil do what you are told and condemn it. No fluther question will ever change this. Let’s stop the gay bashing in these threads. These threads allow the bigots to stand on their soap boxes, and frankly, I’m tired of it.

Ivan's avatar

@ShauneP82

You said that there are sins (presumably, there are a list of them) that we are not to commit, and it is a Christian’s job to spread that.

@Qingu

Sorry, I was referring to the New Testament. I was just explaining what I get out of the Bible when I read it. Regardless, it’s all folklore anyways.

Benny's avatar

You asked about Judaism. Reform Judaism is pretty explicit in its acceptance of homosexuality. http://urj.org/ask/homosexuality/index.cfm?
“Clearly, the official arms of Reform Judaism have taken a most welcoming stance vis-a-vis lesbian and gay Jews who wish to learn, worship, give, live and love as Jews.”

ShauneP82's avatar

@Ivan No! Thats not what I meant. But I see where the confusion came from thanks for pointing it out.

ShauneP82's avatar

@tinyfaery ~You stay out of this!~ lol. :P Totally kidding.

ShauneP82's avatar

@Qingu…YOU WIN THIS ROUND QINGU, BUT I WILL BE BACK…SOMEDAY!!!

Nah! I don’t approve because it is decided that marriage is the binding of a man and a woman; husband and wife under a covenant before God. It really is that simple.

Qingu's avatar

@tinyfaery, there hasn’t been much gay-bashing or bigotry in this thread.

@ShauneP82, but earlier you said love was the basis for your moral view—love was even the basis for you choosing to reject certain of God’s commandments. So why wouldn’t you support a marriage if it’s based on love?

Also, marriage predates Judaism, and for most of history was an economic arrangement that treated women like property. Obviously, the institution of marriage has evolved over time. And it exists in cultures without Yahweh. Are you also opposed to heterosexual atheists getting married, since they aren’t making a covenant “before God”?

mattbrowne's avatar

Non-dogmatic Christianity accepts homosexuality. It’s part of human nature.

Benny's avatar

@mattbrowne Indeed. My neighbor is a devout Christian and a gay activist. I have a good friend who is a gay Episcopalian monk, and another friend who is a gay Catholic monk.

ShauneP82's avatar

@Qingu Because of the time we live in, marriage has many meanings. Marriage within the state entitles you to insurance and all that crap. This sort of marriage I could care less about. It is the Christian marriage which is accepted as the matrimony between a man and a woman before God that I care about. You can not enter a christian marriage as man and man. The same for atheist. They can marry, I jsut dont think it means anything in a christian belief.

Another point I want to bring up is sometimes you just need to do what you are told. Whether you like it or not; understand or not. I would feel a ton better about some of the sins I indulge in if you could convince me they were not sins, but they are and I doubt you can; and even if I did feel it wasn’t wrong that doesn’t make it so.

Oh, I never said I reject any of God’s commandments. I feel a lot of the laws you are mentioning pertained to people during a specific time and situation. God never said let all the world kill those who are not believers. But he did say love the world, until his return. And I can love two married men and still not approve. To not approve does not remove the love.

As far as gay monks and such go. I am glad they have faith, but that is still a sin. So is any pastor that is married and looks a porn. Sin is all the same my friends, no matter the context. It doesn’t change because somebody thinks they fou nd a loop hole.

oratio's avatar

In Sweden gay couples can marry now in the church just as any other couple, with a priest. I guess we are all going to hell. The priests too.

ShauneP82's avatar

@Qingu One more question. Why do you care at all what other people think? I sure don’t. I go out of my way to piss people off sometimes, because they do care so much. It’s just in my nature. I guess that is a sin too. lol.

ShauneP82's avatar

@oratio You may have said that in jest, but it is a very true point. We are all destined for hell no matter what. But…BUT…christ’s sacrifice saved us. Tadaaaaaa! End of discussion. lol.

Qingu's avatar

@ShauneP82, so you would support gays (and atheists) getting married just as long as it was by a justice of the peace?

As for rejecting God’s commandments, obviously you do reject some of them. Here I am, trying to convince people not to believe in God, and you have not made any attempt to stone me to death without mercy as Deuteronomy 13:6 clearly commands you to do. If you feel this law pertains to a certain time and situation, why not also the law against homosexuality?

Qingu's avatar

And I care about what people think because people’s actions are determined largely by what they think.

ShauneP82's avatar

@Qingu I knew you were going to use that argument. The new testament pertains to now and until Christ returns. The old testament pertains to the laws of the jewish faith. Christ has not returned so I will continue to love and evangelize.

But this debate is getting old. I am not going to stop believing in God. Believing in nothing when their is clearly something seems totally foolish to me. Take it easy dog. We should totally talk about other things sometime.

KalWest's avatar

Don’t know if this is totally on point – but someone wrote an awesome response to Dr. Laura (member her?) a few yrs ago after she revealed she was against homosexuality for religious reasons. Here’s the response:

“Dear Dr. Laura,
Thank you so much for reminding us about God’s feelings.
When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws of God and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors.
They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair
price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19–24). The problem
is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A
friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally
obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I
don’t agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses.
Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by
Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6–8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments
made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we
go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10–16) Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private
family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging.”

tinyfaery's avatar

Anytime someone condems a gay person, or rattles off bible quotes talking about homosexulaity being unnatural such as @willbrawn‘s “Naturally Man is suppose to be with women. Thats nature, homosexuality is challenge of the natural body. Its your choice weither you give in to your temptation or you choose to resist and follow God.”.

I consider this gay bashing, and I am tired of this old, tired attempt at justifying bigotry and discrimination.

KatawaGrey's avatar

I meant this question to shed some light on historical reasons for religious condemnation of homosexuality…

willbrawn's avatar

Its not discrimination when its your fighting something thats not right.

KatawaGrey's avatar

@willbrawn: Whether you believe is something is right or not, it’s still discrimination to hate someone for no other reason and to display open disgust and hatred. Don’t Mormons believe that anyone with dark skin is dark with sin? So, they hate black people. That’s still discrimination, even though if you ask them, they say it’s right to hate these people.

If I may say, even if homosexuality is unnatural, so what? Driving a car is unnatural. Wearing clothing is unnatural. Typing on a computer is unnatural. No one’s running around going, “We can’t wear clothes or drive or use computers because it’s unnatural!”

Just to be clear, I don’t think homosexuality is unnatural. I think it’s just as natural or unnatural as heterosexuality, bisexuality, pansexuality, etc.

ShauneP82's avatar

@KatawaGrey Okay, I am back. I love how this is turning out. lol. Everybody is turning this peaceful discourse into chaos. lol. However, I like the conclusions you and I came to. Good, Peaceful, we were respectful and understanding.

The amazing thing that everybody keeps on overlooking is that every negative thing that the bible says about homosexuality is from the old testament pertaining to jewish law. Which KatawaGrey has already voiced; law means nothing without love first and foremost.

God is Love. So like you added @KalWest, Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging. Love is eternal and unchanging. The laws of man have obviously changed, but the laws of God, which is love remains.

KatawaGrey's avatar

@ShauneP82: So, since Christians mostly seem to keep to the new testament, maybe Christianity condemning homosexuality as a sin is a little misguided?

Note that I have never read the bible and am not either Christian or Jewish.

ShauneP82's avatar

@KatawaGrey It could very well be. It is a faith comprised of men looking for God afterall. lol. We are not perfect.

tinyfaery's avatar

So saying “I’m not right” as if something is wrong with me is not bigoted or prejudiced?

willbrawn's avatar

@KatawaGrey wow never said anything about hating anyone. Good friends are gay, doesnt mean I agree or approve of there life style.

And whatever doctrine of thinking dark people are full of sin is wrong and not what I believe or anyone of my faith. My best friend is black. One thing thats important when talking faiths. Ask someone from that demonination dont get it second hand.

crisw's avatar

Can one of you folk who talk about “The Bible is love” actually define what “love” means in some meaningful context?

Qingu's avatar

@tinyfaery, I’m hesitant to throw around the word “bigoted.” If you arrive at the conclusion that homosexuality is a sin because you read it in a 2,600-year old Mesopotamian legend, I don’t think that’s the same as bigotry. It’s irrational, but I think bigotry ought to be reserved for people who goes out of their way to slur or insult homosexuals, for example. The intent is important.

tinyfaery's avatar

@Qingu So people who “go out of there way” to quote bible passages that condemn me are not bigoted? By your own definition, they are.

Ivan's avatar

@willbrawn

“Its not discrimination when its your fighting something thats not right”

Damn straight, brother. I keep telling people that. They get all mad at me when I try to stop women and blacks from voting, but it’s not discrimination if I’m fighting something that’s not right!

Qingu's avatar

@tinyfaery, they might be. But these people were responding to a question. I don’t think that counts as going out of their way. I’ve pointed out how it’s hypocritical for Christians to concentrate on homosexuality but not, for example, slavery or genocide.

Many Christians do this, and I am sure a good number of them are simply prejudiced against homosexuals. But I don’t think it’s fair to label someone as a “bigot” just because they quote from the Bible. I also think playing the bigot card tends to end discussions, which is a shame and makes it harder to challenge these people and expose their hypocrisy.

tinyfaery's avatar

@Qingu You have your strategy and I have mine. And I’ll just let this go, because we are now debating semantics.

KalWest's avatar

@Ivan
You got that right, brother ;-)

KalWest's avatar

@willbrawn
“Good friends are gay, doesnt mean I agree or approve of there life style.”

I don’t believe in judging peoples’ “lifestyles” – as long as it don’t hurt nobody.
And I don’t believe homosexuality hurts anyone.
And regarding “nature” – check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals

KatawaGrey's avatar

@willbrawn: Homosexuality isn’t a lifestyle anymore than being blonde is a lifestyle or weighing 140 pounds is a lifestyle. It’s just an inherent part of who someone is. It’s not as if we choose our sexual preference.

djmuzk's avatar

It isn’t even scientific to say we don’t choose homosexuality.There is NO GAY gene.

Ivan's avatar

@djmuzk

Homosexuality can be biological without being genetic.

cwilbur's avatar

@djmuzk: there’s no straight gene either. Can you tell me at what point you decided that women would turn you on, and not men?

Hobosnake's avatar

I consider homosexuality a sin, yes, but I also consider lying a sin, and the bible says all sins are equal before God.

however

to completely identify oneself and be proud of a sin is the part I have to take issue with. Although homosexuals are by no means the only people doing that nowadays, the issue is that they are simply among the most conspicuous.

And no, I don’t believe homosexuality is inescapable any more than promiscuity is. Some may be predisposed to be more tempted than others, but the thing that makes it seem so inescapable is more the fact that our society tells us it is than the fact that they are more tempted by it.

cwilbur's avatar

@Hobosnake: the question is not whether you consider homosexuality a sin, but whether God does. Making the case for the latter claim requires selectively applying ancient Jewish purity codes and questionable and biased translations of certain rare Greek words, while completely ignoring what Jesus actually did when he came face to face with actual gay people.

Hobosnake's avatar

@cwilbur Is there any documented instance of Jesus coming face to face with a homosexual? a verse or a chapter of the bible? I can’t recall one. Besides, as I said before, it isn’t the fact that it is a sin that bothers me, or even God so much, but that it is a lifestyle.

Jesus showed mercy to prostitutes even though they sinned (and most would agree that that is a sin), but also note that the prostitutes repented when shown mercy and turned their lives around. He would probably do the same for a homosexual (even if he didn’t) but that doesn’t change the fact that homosexuality is a sin. Paul and a few others outline that pretty clearly, and I don’t think translation is as much of an issue as you might imagine.

tinyfaery's avatar

This again?

cwilbur's avatar

@Hobosnake: You remember the story of the Roman centurion whose “servant” was ill, who wanted Jesus to heal him? And Jesus was going to go, and the centurion said, no, you don’t need to go, when I need something done I can have someone else do it, surely you can just delegate? And then Jesus praised his faith?

The word that modern Bibles translate as “servant” actually denotes a servant in a sexual relationship with his master, a common arrangement in the ancient world. There is no ambiguity in the original Greek.

I’ve gotten into this argument at least three times on Fluther, and it’s not like I’m the one who came up with it. Do a search; it’s not like it’s hard to find.

In short, every condemnation of homosexuality in the New Testament is either taken out of context—such as the rhetoric in 1 Romans—or relies on very questionable translation.

Educate yourself. And before you start yammering about the lifestyle sin of homosexuality, attend to the beam in your own eye—the lifestyle sin of bearing false witness.

@tinyfaery: Yes, this again. It’s a thread about the religious condemnation of homosexuality—it’s EXACTLY what it advertises. If you don’t want to read it, why not just un-follow the thread?

tinyfaery's avatar

All of the se same arguments are in this fuckin thread. Just read. There is nothing more to add to the discussion.

Kiss my ass!

Likeradar's avatar

@tinyfaery I’m enjoying reading what other people have to say. To each their own…

KatawaGrey's avatar

@Hobosnake: So because Jesus never met a homosexual means that they don’t exist? Is that what you’re getting at? By that logic, nothing exists after he died for you fundies.

Hobosnake's avatar

@KatawaGrey what on earth drew you to that conclusion??? I was only responding to @cwilbur‘s claim that such a meeting had taken place. And no, I wouldn’t consider myself a fundamentalist. Some things in the bible are metaphorical, or based on the personal meaning to the writers (i.e. the sun “stopped in the sky” for Joshua is based upon what it meant to the Israelites at the time), but when Paul goes right out and says that homosexuality is a sin (and that’s the only translation I’ve ever heard), it’s pretty obvious that he means what he says.

@cwilbur: interesting. I never knew that dynamic of that story. And please elaborate on my “bearing false witness”. I’d like to know what you were referring to. If you mean when I “claimed” there was no verse in the bible where such a meeting occured, I didn’t mean to do so. I wasn’t entirely surprised at the idea of such a meeting, I simply didn’t remember having specifically read about one, and was genuinely interested. It was my failed intention not to come across in that way if I did so.

If you view me as condemning of homosexuals for being who they are, please don’t. I’m all for acceptance of those who struggle with that sin (but, for my own good reasons, would avoid them(you would too if you’d been sexually harrassed)), but can’t condone even those who claim to be Christians yet don’t struggle against their temptations, but instead completely give into them shamelessly, even pridefully.

I have nothing against being tempted, and nothing against failing in the struggle, but I have everything against shameless pride in one’s continual sin. If one is attracted to their own sex but not the opposite one, maybe they should just remain celibate.

Hobosnake's avatar

Some people don’t believe murder, stealing, or rape are sins. Do we tolerate their views?

Ivan's avatar

The difference, of course, being that homosexuality is a description of something inherent about a person. That, and it harms no one.

Hobosnake's avatar

@Ivan You’ll never convince me that homosexuality is uncontrollable. Granted, one may be more predisposed towards it, but I’ll attribute rampant homosexuality more to cultural perversion of the topic than to an uncontrollable urge to commit sin.

Homosexuality, by the way, harms the people involved pretty often. Some sins (like ignoring the Sabbath) were declared sins partly or even wholly to protect the people from themselves. Besides, it harms others by encouraging them to take part as well, as is undeniably happening. It’s pretty easy for people in the American culture to fall prey to the idea that if they are even remotely attracted to their own sex they mustbe” homosexual and therefore it is “denying who they are” to be straight.

Ivan's avatar

“You’ll never convince me that homosexuality is uncontrollable.”

So long as we’ve concluded that your opinions are cemented, there is little point to this.

Hobosnake's avatar

@Ivan I doubt you believe that all homosexuals are inescapably sucked into bed with other members of their own sex either. My point is that it can be a temptation, but is not an inescapable quality, such as skin color or gender.

Likeradar's avatar

@Hobosnake You’re talking about homosexual behavior versus homosexuality. Two different things.

Ivan's avatar

^^this

KatawaGrey's avatar

@Hobosnake: I normally don’t like to flame but I will make an exception in your case. You’re an idiot. I hate that people like you are breeding. I guess I’ll just have to start popping out happy, tolerant kids to counteract you.

Hobosnake's avatar

tolerance is an overrated value nowadays.

cwilbur's avatar

@Hobosnake: by the lifestyle of bearing false witness, I mean the Republican senators allied with the Christian right who campaign against gay rights while picking up men in airport restrooms, the evangelical preachers who denounce homosexuality and extramarital sex from the pulpit while using church funds to pay for prostitutes of both genders, the priests and bishops who tell gay men that we should remain celibate while shuffling pedophile clergy from congregation to congregation, the upstanding pillars of the community who condemn abortion and picket abortion clinics while sending their unmarried and pregnant daughters out of town to get abortions before they start to show.

The flaw in your argument is your belief that homosexuality is a sin. It isn’t; not any more than heterosexuality. It takes either a misunderstanding of the Bible or a perversion of what it says to make that claim. Of course, the groundwork for the misunderstanding has been long since laid down, and carried forth through many generations of translators; when you can’t determine based on ancient sources what the words malakoi and arsenokoitai mean, it’s much safer to go with what the translators of the King James used than to strike out on your own.

If you want to understand this argument in a different light, read Dirt, Greed, and Sex by William Countryman. He examines the Biblical issues around sex and ritual purity in the context of the first century culture that the New Testament was written in. When you’re done reading it, you’ll find Paul’s condemnations of homosexuality a lot less cut and dried than you do now.

Hobosnake's avatar

Is it just me, or has this thread’s topic been changed? Seems like it’s shifted to the topic of the atheist condemnation of religion. I’m outta here.

Homosexual behavior IS still a sin though.

Likeradar's avatar

@Hobosnake Excellent job at running away when you can’t back up your views but throwing in the last word. Way to be.

Ivan's avatar

nanner nanner nanner

cwilbur's avatar

@Hobosnake: It’s more like the condemnation of Christians who parrot unthinkingly what they have been taught and who revel in the hypocrisy of their leaders.

You can’t simply claim “homosexual behavior is a sin” without backing it up, and you can’t back it up, so you run away. Nice job, and congratulations on joining the lifestyle of bearing false witness.

evil2's avatar

the clergy is so against homosexuality , is that homosexuals scare them , its members of society that cant peg down and want to control, all religion is a form of order and control…thats what “god” wants is to control his flock like any good shepard

graynett's avatar

All the Christian laws were null and void or superseded {I heard} when Christ informed us all that we should (1) love God and (2) treat our neighbors as ourself [or words to that effect]. So clergy that tell you not to muzzle the oxen or other mosaic laws have not your wellbeing on their mind only their power at threat or why did the redemption not redeem

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