Does anyone else find the number of Republicans who have doubts about President Obama's citizenship shocking?

That many? Really? How on Earth could that be? Spin is out of control these days. It makes me sad.

Yes. I can’t believe how ignorant some people can be.

No. I know how ignorant people can be.

I think they, and the health care protesters are being deliberately incited by much bigger forces than they understand, and are pawns in a gigantic political game where the stakes are very, very high, and involve vast amounts of money.

There are experts operating out there doing the bidding of big Pharma, etc. and they know very well exactly how to do their dirty work. And there’s no question that their work is very, very dirty.

The unending stupidity of politics is based on what the Republicans say about the Democrats, and what the Democrats say about the Republicans.

If we could just make them stop talking about each other, and get them to spend all that wasted time on working on our nation’s issues, we might actually make some progress.

Yep, it’s crazy. Because with as much anti-Obama talk as there was if there was anything that would legally keep him from being president he wouldn’t be president right now.

I do find that number shocking, but I have encountered (on the internet) many people who believe that he was not born on US soil, and it always amazes me. The denial is what scares me.

Nothing many Republicans say or do ever shocks me, but I can say the same about many Democrats (though I suspect not nearly as many).

@tinyfaery Don’t confuse ignorance with credulity. I don’t blame the ordinary people who are merely distraught and confused and looking for something to believe in. I blame the sophisticated people who are manipulating them for reasons of their own.

There are people who believe Elvis is alive and/or was abducted by aliens. Is anything really that shocking these days…..

Definitely doesn’t shock me. I have very little faith in most of humanity, so I expect things like that.

I do find it surprising, I also find it sad. These have got to be the same people that believe the government is going to send people out to visit all the elderly people in our country to find out how they want to die. In other words, those who believe that what Fox News says is the gospel truth.

@SuperMouse Oh, and while they’re out visiting, they’re going to take everyone’s guns, too. ~

I blame the ignorant.

How many times does Hawaii have to produce the birth certificate?

I have a bet with one of those Republicans, I told him I’d bet him a hundred bucks that by the end of Obama’s presidency, he would still have his guns, because there was no way the govt was going to take them away. He turned down the bet. Seems even the Repubs don’t truly believe the rhetoric, or at least not enough to back it up with real money.

The three truly worthless people on earth are Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, and Bill O’Reilly. They are busy breathing all of our oxygen. Of course, we can add Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid to that list as well.

Considering what the Republicans had in office for the past 8 years, I am surprised that they think they had the right to say anything negative at all. Seriously, however, what really does surprise me is how absolutely vocal my Republican acquaintances are about the dumbest things – that Obama’s name proves he is of Muslim descent and is planning on allowing the Al Quaeda to take over America (even if he was Muslim, that doesn’t mean he is in league with Osama bin Laden!); that he hates all whites and is trying to promote black supremacy (his mother is white and he loved his white grandparents dearly); and all sorts of idiotic things like that (including the “non-American” born too!). Please Republicans, send out thoughtful, debate-worthy points of view with proven facts behind them – not this drivel.

@FlutherMother most conservative Republicans can only accept the BS they are fed and are unable to think for themselves. Why do you think Faux News is so popular?

The State of Hawaii seems quite certain he was born in Hawaii. So do his neighbors and relatives who still live there.

These same “birthers” probably thought the Democrats were crazy for believing that Bush stole the election away from Gore. which he did

I just can’t believe that no Republicans have joined this discussion… I’d expect a couple brave fools to try to argue with this liberal crowd. BTW, I sort of detest being labeled “liberal” just cause I want everyone to have affordable healthcare. We should rebrand ourselves as the “logical left” instead!

Well, considering that this is the party which looks to Rush Limbaugh for its ideas, one of which from today’s show gives us a rundown of why Democrats are like the Nazis, I’d say it’s been clear to me for some time that a great number of Republicans wouldn’t let a little thing like verifiable facts stand in the way of whatever they want to believe.

Isn’t @cheebdragon a conservative?

@augustlan, you are correct, my dear, I was just pointing out that people have believed stranger things, So is it “shocking”? No

Does Rush Limbaugh speak for the majority of republicans?because I didn’t get that memo

I think it’s plausible that 28 percent of Republicans didn’t pay attention in geography classes. Africa is a country and since when did Japan give Hawaii back to America?

I read in some article about the mentality of this.

Complaining about Obama’s eligibility by means of birth certificate allows Republicans to still hold the seat of the President as ultimate authority and respect in their minds and hearts, as it has always been, it’s just that in their mind Obama is occupying that seat illegitimately. So all of their efforts are going to free that imprisoned seat.

I watched a recent video clip with that lawyer/real estate/dentist/showboat Orly whatsherlastname, the woman who is heading this movement. She’s ridiculous. Laughably so. The host said to her, “You do know that Ann Coulter thinks you’re crazy.” And that’s a new level of craziness I’ve never seen before!

The ultimate irony is that McCain was born in Panama, so if any of the two candidates were to have issues regarding their legitimate claim to the presidency, it would be McCain for sure.

First if I may… let’s differentiate between “conservatives” and Republicans
I consider myself to be a conservative… however I no longer identify myself as a “Republican” because I feel that the party has not upheld its conservative core values.

Second… there are loons on either side of the aisle. The “liberal – media” would LOVE for the rest of you to believe that all of us conservative/republicans are either a bunch of gun toting, cousin dating, bible thumping, minions OR the wealthy, bloated cigar smoking, non-caring, political/financial power pulling the strings of the former group of noted people.

Well… we’re not. I’m sure that there are a few loon-jobs out there who are so far to the right that they’d never be able to see the ‘middle’ who will look for any reason to call into question the legitimacy of the current President… HOWEVER the majority of PEOPLE in general (on both sides of the political spectrum) are REALLY somewhere in the middle… just leaning one way or another in their political views.

I hear that 75% of all statisics are made up.

If you look at where Robinson is pulling his survey info from, “Daily Kos” it makes perfect sense that the data presented is so skewed. Daily Kos is a liberal website to start with, so how accurate do you think the results of a poll concerning Republicans are actually going to be. It’s no wonder they are portrayed in such a negative light. Robinson even admits in his own article that the Daily Kos is a liberal website.

“The survey, commissioned by the liberal Web site Daily Kos”

People need to take into account the inherent bias of where they are gathering their information from because pulling information about conservatives from the Daily Kos is like asking Fox News to conduct popular opinion polls about Obama.

It turns out that Republicanism is associated with lower IQ. I have a citation for that little fact on another question. So, no. I’m not particularly shocked.

Just call us racists and get it over with…..

I asked once if these people had so little faith in their party leaders that they thought that they couldn’t or wouldn’t use every possible underhanded trick to gain an advantage. Since they know that their party leaders have no scruples in finding something to discredit someone, they were unable to defend their position.

I think all of this is extremely stupid, racist, partisan hate-mongering which, as usual, has so little to do with reality that its utterly absurd. But then a lot of the ideas and beliefs of the Republican party are absurd and contradictory. Who else could be pro life and pro death penalty at the same time?

@christine215 Where I’m from, most Republicans are, in fact, “gun toting, cousin dating, bible thumping, minions.” Its not a stereotype if its true. (And most of the time they don’t know they’re cousins because both their families have been in the area since it was settled, but they generally stop dating when they figure it out.) It might not be true everywhere, but it is a fact that these people make up a significant part of the Republican party.

ooh haha, see I knew that racists shit was going to come up next

@cheebdragon Actually, you give me hope. I don’t care what people’s politics are, I just want them to have enough critical thinking skills to get past the bushwa on both sides.

@cheebdragon – I didn’t say Rush Limbaugh “speaks for the majority of Republcians”. I said “this is the party that looks to Rush Limbaugh for ideas”. In 1994, Limbaugh was considered so important in terms of influence in helping Republicans take over Congress in the mid term elections (because between 14 and 20 million people, mostly Republicans, listen to his radio show, and correct me if I’m wrong, but that’s ⅓ of the number who voted for the Republican candidate in 2008), that he was named an honorary freshman Congressman that year. In today’s political climate when Republicans aren’t sure if they as a group want to be fiscal conservatives, social conservatives or security conservatives (or some mixture of the 3), Limbaugh speaks for if not the largest segment of Republicans these days, certainly the most vocal segment. And likely the same segment by and large who could look at concrete evidence of someone’s citizenship and still question it. One of the biggest “birther” arguments is that even IF Obama’s Hawaiian birth certificate is valid, he shouldn’t be allowed to be President because his FATHER was from Kenya. That’s not what the Constitution says, but clearly my point is, a party where at least 28% (the figure referenced in the source story) listen on a regular basis to a guy who compares his political enemies to Nazis (and were he the only highly influential crazy in the Republican party, that would be one thing, but look no further than Ann Coulter and her book sales to see evidence that “some”, not “all” Republicans will buy ANYTHING if it fits their preconceived notions), then you really shouldn’t be surprised that this many Republicans are willing to believe that a person such as Obama, who is basically fighting for the polar opposite of everything they’ve been working towards since Nixon was first elected, regardless of any racism, which is not a party line issue by any means, would have some flaw that would give them a loophole for his removal. It’s wishful thinking, but certainly not critical thinking.

@cheebdragon I’m from South Georgia. The majority of the hate mongering here about Obama is based on race first, politics second. It might masquerade as a political thing, but true colors, true meanings, true motivations come out. The irrationality based on race not isolated to this part of the country either. Denying that racism a HUGE part of the reasoning for a lot of the people who delude themselves with the issue of Obama’s birth certificate is ignorant and typical of those who only see what they want to see, despite the facts of the matter. You might not be racist. But that doesn’t mean that a huge part of the Republican party is on the same page.

And most black men believe what this man has to say and most gay men believe what this man has to say.

I hate stereotypes!

@jonsblond Just because you can label something a “stereotype” doesn’t mean that people aren’t living up to it. You cannot disregard the truth by labeling it a stereotype and going about your business oblivious to the fact that some cheerleaders are sluts, some jocks are dumb and some members of political parties fit the “stereotype” applied to the party. Stereotyping is saying “all” or “most” regardless of the truth. Saying “some” when that’s exactly right… is exactly right. And saying “most in an area” when that is also accurate is, in fact, accurate.

… as I mentioned before, both political parties have whacko extremists. Those extremists do not (or might I say SHOULD not) define the party.
Rush Limbaugh doesn’t speak for me any more than maybe Mike Malloy speaks for those of you who are on the left.

The original question is leading…

There are probably about the same number of people who are questioning President Obama’s birth place as there are who believe that 9/11 was a government conspiracy… and I put both of those groups into the “extremist whacko” categories

P.S. You don’t see the conservatives slinging around the negative stereotypes of “Liberals” now do you??

@cheebdragon The topic of the birth certificate came up in conversation today. It wasn’t long until someone said “Tell the damn———to show his birth certificate on TV and then I’ll believe it.” You can very well imagine the word I omitted. The racist connection is strong and a real reason why many people are protesting against this particular president. Its not the reason for all objections, but its behind more than a few and that is far from a stereotype.

@elanakin Welcome to Fluther. Lurve.
I think a lot of Republicans actually don’t believe this not born in America bs. They are just playing it for all they can. They are a dog with a rag. The dog knows its just a rag, but they shake the hell out of it anyway.

@avvoooo your logic astounds me.

@cheebdragon True lack of logic astounds me. As for the individual I was speaking to, I went and got some tin foil, constructed a hat for him, and informed him that if he was going to start believing in government conspiricies he needed his hat. And that Elvis would be by his house for dinner and he wanted pork chops.

Denying the truth makes it no less real. It just makes you blind.

There was a poll in South Carolina that found that 76% of Republicans thought that Obama wasn’t born in the United States, or they wern’t sure. However 11% of them believing that he wasn’t, didn’t know that Hawaii was a state.

…and the republican bashing continues

@christine215 Its not like they did anything to deserve it, right?

@christine215 – curious what you consider “Republican bashing”? Posting the results of a factual poll? I have yet to see a post on this thread that says anything about “ALL Republicans”. The discussion is about a particular group of self-identified Republicans who seem to believe something that has been debunked. I honestly think it’s a shame that South Carolina’s self-identified Republicans are so out of touch with reality that a full ¾ of them believe a lie, and one out of 9 doesn’t even realize that Hawaii is a state, that’s appalling, but I take @MontyZuma‘s word for it that this poll was taken. If you have doubts, ask for a link, but I don’t see that as bashing any more than I would see it as bashing if someone posted the results of a poll that made self identified liberals in a particular geographic area look bad. Like say some of the polling that came out of Appalachia when Clinton was still trying to wrest the nomination from Obama, there was some real ugliness being said by self professed liberals, but it WAS said. I would decry it as bashing if someone tried to paint ALL liberals with the same brush and make them all seem like backwood loons, and even though I’m not a Conservative, I’d be the first to point out if someone tried to say “ALL” Republicans are unhinged and believe the lies about Obama’s birth certificate. But I can’t decry it as bashing if someone says that a poll in x state says this…those are facts, whether you’re comfortable with them or not.

Ironic, isn’t it? @christine215 takes reported information and reduces it to “Republican bashing.” Kind of like calling information about making end of life decisions “death panels.” Anyone see a pattern?

Now that is Republican bashing. What can I say? This kind of behavior makes me sick. I’ve given up trying to be nice, because it seems like nice gets me nowhere. It seems to me that far too many Republicans have crossed some line into the territory of deliberate malevolence. If it isn’t that, then it’s astronomical stupidity. Or maybe both.

And can you blame me for tarring Republicans with the same brush? The leaders spout this nonsense, and yet, the rank and file don’t seem to try to correct these lies. What else can I assume, but that they agree with their leaders? It’s no wonder they drummed someone like Arlen Specter out of the party.

I don’t bother to ask Montezuma for his references, because can find statistics to prove any point you want on the internet, I’ve actually found a website that “proves” that the moon is made of green cheese but that doesn’t mean that it’s a fact

@daloon , @dalepetrie This is like arguing with a drunk. The poll, which was of North Carolina (my mistake) was reported by both Rachel Maddow and Keith Olberman yesterday and here .

Oh yes, here we go again, there are all kinds facts reported on the Internet and absolutely no way to know if any of them is true. After all everybody lies, don’t they? There’s no such thing as intellectual honesty, is there? So, why not believe anything you want to believe? That sounds just like a religious fundamentalist. I’ve got my mind made up and I refuse to be confused with the facts.

OK, I’m going to give you one fools opinion. I am not trying to influence anyone, so take it or leave it for what it is worth or what its not worth. And yes, I will give you biases and generalities as I see things through my eyes. Again, take it or leave it (and wouldn’t it be refreshing if Rush Limbaugh prefaced his spouting of “the way it is” in a similar manner):
Based on my observation of politics and people and their party allegiances, it seems to me that the majority of republicans I know (and yes, I guess it’s possible I’ve only encountered republican extremists in my life) have an attitute of superiority, sometimes based on financial success, sometimes on prejudice, and sometimes for god knows why. And, many of these people just plain hate to lose. And many of those people will go to any length to prove you wrong rather than suck up the loss and make things work for the best. And now of course I’ve whittled down the republican sample I know down to one republican. And let me tell you, that bastard will do anything to ensure he doesn’t lose next time and will discredit the opposition and derail even common-sense policy and legislation. But of course, I may have had a sheltered life and not been exposed to good republicans. So throw the above out with the bath water, if you like. So take it for what its worth which is probably nothing, but at least I didn’t give you the Rush “I know how it is and I am right so rally around me” bullshit that the last republican I mentioned so wholeheartedly respects and treats as gospel. And now, pardon me while I return to my cave (grunt).
See ya….Gary aka wtf

It is a wonderful tactic, which in my experience has far more often been utilized by Republicans than Democrats, to dismiss any challenge of substance with an off handed remark. For example when a person posts the results of a poll, another person accuses that person of racism, not for what HE said, but for what the poll says, thus dismissing the poll and the person. Then when another person says, well, why don’t you ask for backup if you don’t believe it, that person dismisses this too by saying that it’s possible to fake any point you want to prove (not addressing the fact that there is an actual existing poll out there that was referenced in the first place). It seems like prejudice, closed mindedness and ignorance to me, and my experience in dealing with Republicans, some of whom I respect and admire greatly for their ability to engage in substantive debate without skirting the issues or invoking distraction techniques, I’m not surprised to see this tactic used by someone advocating for a conservative viewpoint. So far, all I’ve seen from @christine215 is links to other peoples thoughts on the issue and outright dismissals of anything that contradicts her worldview, unfounded accusations of all manner of evils up to and including racism, but no real intellectual support or even articulation of a contrary position. But again, I’m referring to one specific person who employs a tactic that is far more often employed by one group, but I am not in any way saying that all members of the aforementioned group behave in this manner, just the ones who have no fundamental understanding of the real issues nor any desire to learn of a viewpoint which contradicts their own.

This is just pathetic…

@cheebdragon Quite. And most pathetic of all is that none of the information, opinions, discussion, anything is sinking in because its all being dismissed as liberal crap. As discussed above. So yes, it is quite pathetic.

avvooooo it is all Liberal crap to me, because the moment you take an adversarial position as I see being done against ME (as I am a Republican) you shut down and go into defensive mode…

I’ve realy tried my best to not be combative and to not resort to name calling… I haven’t gone out of my way to find skewed “polls” from politically biased sources…
Really I think that people are PEOPLE… we all want what we perceive to be the best for our country, so that’s the common goal, the path toward the common goal is really what we’re arguing about

Who doesn’t want everybody who CAN work to have a job that pays a fair wage enough to support their family and keep them healthy and put food on the table and meet their necessities? Isn’t that really what we’re all about? Isn’t that really what’s most important to PEOPLE in general?

So…that being said… how different are we really? I’m a republican, I’m not stomping my feet and blowing hard about the fact that Sen. McCain lost the election… personally I would have voted for Hilary Clinton if she’d have gotten the Dem nomination anyway. She’s closer to being a centrist that President Obama is.

That being said, President Obama IS the President of MY Country (yes, I know I share it with a lot of people, but I take pride in living here, so I feel that I can say that it’s mine too, just because the guy in office doesn’t have an “R” next to his name doesn’t automatically mean that this is no longer my country)

So, I guess all this being said, those of you who delight in name calling and generalizing and bashing, can have your fun at the expense of others. Your “polls” and anecdotal evidence really doesn’t mean that much to someone like me… I know who I am, I know who the people are which I surround myself with, I’ve met my local republican politicians, and have worked locally with my party… I’ve seen very well spoken, well educated people, who just don’t fit into your stereotypical molds… I live just outside of a major metropolitan city, so I doubt that we’re really the EXCEPTION to the rule…

It’s sad to me that people as yourselves will just continue to advance your stereotypes and widen the divide between PEOPLE, who really just have the same goals in the end.

@christine215 We have nothing to be defensive about. The people who are getting defensive are those who can’t back up their claims with truth. The truth is that Obama is a citizen. Stating the truth is not “go[ing] into defensive mode.” There are other truths that we’re not fighting about, we state the truth and stick by it and explain when people don’t understand. You see defensive mode because we’re stating things that you don’t want to hear, not because we have something to defend or hide. You can claim all you want to that all you care about is PEOPLE and doing the “right thing” but when it comes down to it, some people are being obstructionist just to be that way for whatever reason and motivation and there is nothing wrong for recognizing that for what it is. There is something wrong with getting in the way of things that would help PEOPLE just because you don’t like the person who proposed it, just because he’s not in your political party, or “just because” in other ways. I don’t have a problem with Republicans, per say, but I do have a problem with willful and joyous ignorance and obstinate stupidity that defies all common sense. It just so happens that the majority of people who I see right now displaying these things proudly identify themselves as Republicans.

There is nothing wrong with describing the typical Republican in my area. I live in a rural area and just because people fit what you want to call a “stereotype” does not mean that they are not exactly as described. If you think that those kinds of Republicans are a myth and that its all name calling, you have lived a very insular life outside your major metropolitan city. As I’ve said before, stereotypes might not fit all people, but there are some that fit and perpetuate the stereotype. I would image that in rural areas outside of big cities that there are far more people that fit the description that you despise rather than the one you provided. I know some Republicans that are like those you describe, but these tend to be professional class people who have gone to college and are indeed well educated. The less “well educated” (your term, not mine) are many times not as you describe. There’s a disparity that you fail to recognize. And if you only surround yourself with people who are well educated, its no wonder that’s all you can see.

Its sad to me that people like you put your blinders on to the world around you and think that what you see is all there is.

More about the poll referenced in the question: I just saw Tuesday’s broadcast of the Rachel Maddow show where she discusses a poll commissioned by the Daily KOS.

The pollsters ask people if they believe that the present health insurance reform involves death panels, and 37% of Republicans say Yes, and 32% say Not Sure; compared to Democrats, only 9% say Yes, and 17% say Not Sure.

The pollsters go on to ask people if they believed that Obama was not born in the US and 26% of Republicans said Yes, (they didn’t think he was) and 31% said Not Sure; compared with Democrats, only 5% say Yes, and only 7% say Not Sure.

They asked if the reform play was a government “takeover” of health care, 60% of Republicans said Yes and 23% said Not Sure; compared to Democrats only 8% believed it was a “takeover” and only 18% said Not Sure.

Next they asked if Medicare was a government program or not and 14% of Republicans said that it was Not, and 10% were Unsure, compared to only 7% of Democrats who didn’t think that Medicare was a government program and only 4% were Unsure.

Then they asked where people got their news. 62% of Republicans get their news from Fox News, compared to 32% of Democrats and 24% of Independents; whereas 63% of Democrats watch CNN and/or 47% watch MSNBC.

Apparently Fox News is a huge news source for Republicans, and it is where they get most of their misinformation. According to a separate NBC/Wall Street Journal Poll,

76% of Fox viewers believe that health insurance reform is a secret plot to kill old people, while only 41% of MSNBC/CNN viewers believe this.

79% of Fox News viewers believe that the plan will take money away from Medicare and give it to illegal aliens, while only 39% of MSN/CNN viewers believe this.

69% of Fox viewers believe that the health plan will pay for abortions, while only 40% of MSN/CNN viewers believe this.

And a whopping 76% of Fox News viewers believe that the plan will stop care for old people, while only 30% of MSN/CNN viewers believe this.

She goes on to discuss in an interview with Bill Mayer the implications of trying to have a national debate when one side lives in its own misinformation bubble and seems to cling to this false information so tenaciously and emotionally held. It is fascinating and a “must see” for anyone who wonders, as I do, why the Republicans are so totally not on the same page as the rest of us.

The interview is very, very worthwhile: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#32469231

@christine215 I’m curious about your dismissal of polls. They seem to be able to predict the results of elections pretty accurately. Why do you think they are so unreliable? Sure, people can manipulate results by changing the wording of questions, or by fixing the sample, and sometimes the sample just doesn’t reflect the total population, but you can check all that, and decide for yourself, whether the poll has any validity or not.

Many of us have been providing sources for the data upon which our opinions are based. I could have missed it, but I don’t recall you supporting any of your opinions with data so far. You just dismiss the data as somehow biased. As if you simply don’t trust any scientist. Perhaps you don’t. However, that seems to me to be a faith-based kind of view, and if some people are talking about evidence and others are talking about faith, there really is no conversation, is there? I mean we simply don’t agree on the fundamental principles that formulate the basis for identifying evidence.

I don’t dismiss ALL polls. There are things to consider when you’re looking at them
A) Who did the asking (was it a reputable firm with no bias, or was the poll given on some politically affiliated website)
B) HOW was the question posed? (Was it an open or closed ended question?)
C) Was the question leading in any manner?
D) What percentage of the people who were polled actually even ANSWERED the question (what’s the response rate?)

Polls administered by reputable firms are excellent sources of information, (Zogby & Gallup come to mind)

Polls commissioned by “the daily Kos” mean nothing to me because they are already biased… just as mentioned before, it’s like citing polling information from Fox News, asking how people thing President Obama’s doing….

(p.s. If my answers are incomplete or not as full of information as some of you have time to do, it’s because I post from work at break… so please forgive my expedience of finding opinions that sometimes are similar to my own and posting links to them)

I’m a statistician. I know all that stuff. The question is did you look at all that before dismissing the poll results? Or do you just use the polling organization as a stand-in for doing all that work?