General Question

RTT's avatar

Should we teach the bible in all schools and work places?

Asked by RTT (268points) March 29th, 2011

I feel that the information I have learned in church has helped me with my family, friends, and co-workers. I have gone back to church for over the last two years. The bible has taught me to be a better person, be more understanding with people, try not to judge everybody, have learned patience with people, do not worry as much as I did, live a more peaceful life in this world we live in,help people out more often, and have a more positive attitude about life. I believe the bible has helped me with the economy, the weather events, and dealing with people who has done me wrong. Just pray for people who do you wrong and let Jesus do the judging. God Bless You.

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159 Answers

klutzaroo's avatar

Absolutely not. The Bible, and all holy books, are abused to create hatred and dissent. Religion is not mandated in this country and will never be The Bible, the book from one religion, has no place in our schools and workplaces because we are allowed to believe what we want to believe, not just follow what some megalomaniacs hundreds of years ago wrote down and what idiots who think they know better than everyone else try to shove down everyone else’s throats. Absolutely, completely, totally the answer is NO.

ragingloli's avatar

Definitely not. If you want to believe it helped you, then fine, believe that, but do not try to force that book on others, especially in countries where the is a separation of church and state.

Then there is the fact that, despite some good parts it has, most of its contents is morally questionable and its claims about reality are factually and scientifically wrong.
I can and will not support teaching the contents of a book as true and rightous, that is mostly full of untruths and that has historically has been the source of bloodshed and oppression, even in the stories contained within.

Hawaii_Jake's avatar

In the USA, we have no state mandated religion. It is therefore illegal that we would teach one religion’s holy book over another.

Bellatrix's avatar

In principle, don’t have a problem with schools offering a religious education class that covers all different religions, however I would be totally against a class that focused on just one religion and didn’t also offer a valid alternative for children who (or whose parents) opt out of this class. Here (in Australia) some people are advocating for ethics classes as an alternative.

However, the danger with religious education classes is they can be hijacked by people from specific religions who use the opportunity to proselytise. I am totally opposed to this. Those teaching these classes should not be promoting any one or indeed any faith.

AdamF's avatar

@RTT Substitue the word Koran for bible, and Mosque for church and have a think about whether you really would want to live in someone else’s theocracy, or just want others to live in yours.

cazzie's avatar

Yes. I believe religion, all religions, should be taught in schools. It should be taught as part of social studies. I do not believe any of it should be ‘preached’.

everephebe's avatar

I think, the Bible when read fully is one of the greatest arguments for atheism… So I wouldn’t mind the book being read in schools, no, why not. The Bible being “taught” however, worries me, having gone to two schools that did that. I didn’t enjoy either experience.

bunnygrl's avatar

Oh my goodness no!! A thousand times no!!! My fellow jellies above have all given GA (especially @ragingloli who has written almost exactly what I wanted to say) so there is little that I can add except this.

I get so angry when people say that being taught the teachings from the bible (or any other holy book) is the only way to become a truly good person, to not be judgemental, to know right from wrong, to care about others as much as you do about yourself… You know what….. I was raised by a tiny little lady, my Grandmother, without religion in my life. She taught me how to be a good person, she taught me right from wrong (possibly to an excessive degree in that at the age of 46 I cannot…seriously.. bring myself to even swear) she taught me how to treat others far better than I would treat myself. For her the capital sin that could not be excused ever was to be selfish. It should be an honour and a privilege to share with others I was taught. She didn’t need the Bible to teach me these things, she taught me by example. By how she lived her life, by how she treated others. By being the kind of person she was.

Yes, kids should be taught all these things, but by their parents, not from a book which is, in parts, as @ragingloli said “morally questionable.” Being gay/lesbian is not, in any way shape or form, a sin, getting divorced in order to escape a harmful relationship is not a sin….. stopping now because I’m getting a bit angry again, off to make a cuppa to calm down. So, essentially my answer to your question is no, honey. No, no, no.

Fyrius's avatar

For once, I don’t have much to add to what’s already been said, except “what they said”. Theocratic indoctrination is bad, mkay.

laureth's avatar

The tenets of Buddhism, Atheism, Asatru, and the Enlightenment have made me a better person too. It’s helped me with my family, friends, and co-workers. Shall we teach everything, every philosophy and religion and self-help book that has ever helped anyone, in all schools and workplaces, or shall we save workplace time for getting work done, and school time for learning academic matter? Religion and the Bible is what “free time” is for, for such believers as choose to pursue such things.

Heck, even Fluther has helped me navigate life to some degree. Maybe we should have mandatory Fluther during work and school.

Thammuz's avatar

ohboyherewego.jpg

The bible has taught me to be a better person
Do you own slaves? because according to the bible that’s perfectly ok. As is killing your son if he disrespects you and selling your daughter to her rapist if she was raped in the countryside. If it happened in the city, she’s better off, though, you’ll only have to stone her to death.

be more understanding with people
Except for gays, who have to be stoned, and atheists, who have to be stoned, and people who try to convert you, who have to be stoned, and people claiming to be sorcerers, who have to be stoned (though this last one I have no problem with)

try not to judge everybody
Except see above.

do not worry as much as I did
That’s fucking easy when you don’t think you actually have to do something to change your life in a positive way. Just wait for life to provide for you, I’m sure it’ll turn out wonderfully.

The bible is one of the most despicable books I ever read, I wouldn’t endorse its teaching if I had a gun to my head and every time I see it outside of the “fiction” section of a bookstore I have the impulse of moving it there and burning down the bookstore. Okay, maybe not, but you get the point.

Not to mention it is incredibly badly written and everyone knows the ending already, because it was published before people started to care about spoilers.

Seriously though, @ragingloli already said everything there is to say.

BarnacleBill's avatar

It sounds from your question that you are very sincere, and that you have possibly extracted the correct lessons for the teachings of Jesus. There are a lot of people who are atheists who do exactly as you do without prayer. They don’t judge other people, they turn the other cheek, give to charities, help the poor, do social service volunteer; in short, follow the Golden Rule of “Do Unto Others As You Would Have Done Unto You.” They do it because it’s the right thing to do, not because they are told to do it.

Many people who read the Bible and go to church distort the teachings of the Bible to hurt and damage other people. All Christians are not created equal, and all Christians are not christian. It needs to stay in church, and not be forced down people’s throats.

creative1's avatar

No way, there are too many on the interpetations the bible for one. Which would we go with? Another point is there are too many belief systems out there and who is actually right, no one gets to say. Let people pray and read their bible on their own and in their own house of worship. Schools and Workplaces are not a place for it!

Foolaholic's avatar

I agree with @cazzie‘s point of view. I took a college course last semester called The Secular and the Sacred (which was required for all students). While I wasn’t a fan of the method in which the course material was laid out, I do agree with the idea that all students should receive some sort of general education on all religions. However, to teach the principles of any single religious text would be a direct violation of religious freedom that is taught by my religion.

“I’d Really Rather You Didn’t Act Like A Sanctimonious Holier-Than-Thou Ass When Describing My Noodly Goodness. If Some People Don’t Believe In Me, That’s Okay. Really, I’m Not That Vain. Besides, This Isn’t About Them So Don’t Change The Subject.”
– The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

augustlan's avatar

No way. Unless you’re going to teach all religion, you must not teach any religion.

SuperMouse's avatar

No we absolutely should not teach the Bible in all schools and work places. This is actually a moot point because the very first amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America guarantees our citizens freedom of religion. It is unconstitutional to teach the Bible in all schools and work places. I am very happy for you and all you have gained from your faith but I’ll take care of my faith thanks.

cazzie's avatar

@SuperMouse If the Constitution really guaranteed the citizens freedom ‘from’ religion it wouldn’t be on TV or the Radio or allowed to be preached on street corners.

It is meant to guarantee the freedom OF religion, meaning that no one would be persecuted if they were Quaker, Catholic or Lutheran or atheist.

SuperMouse's avatar

@cazzie as my post points out, the Constitution does not guarantee freedom from religion, it guarantees freedom of religion.

LostInParadise's avatar

There is another reason for not teaching the Bible in addition to those previously mentioned. Not everyone interprets the Bible in the same way as the OP. Many bigots have characterized various groups as evil or inferior and have used the Bible to justify taking actions against them.

I have wondered if it might be helpful to start meetings, as in the workplace, with a few minutes of silent meditation. This could be interpreted by any individual to be either a religious or secular moment.

Response moderated (Unhelpful)
blueiiznh's avatar

No. It is completely personal even at a young age. If you want to teach these things in the family and home that is fine. You also have a choice of sending them to a school that has religon as part of the curriculum. It however should never be forced. It has to be found from within and at an individual level.

AmWiser's avatar

No. Why would the bible be taught in the workplace?

theninth's avatar

The only time religion should be part of the workplace is when you work in a religious institution—a mosque, temple, or church. The only time religion should be part of the school curriculum is when it’s a religious-affiliated school where parents send their children by choice, or as an elective at the university level.

wilma's avatar

No. Religion is very personal and should not be forced or mandated in schools or the workplace.
I think teaching the basics of all religions should be available to be studied by students. I took a “great Religions” class in high school. I learned a lot from it, primarily that most religions have a lot in common.

BarnacleBill's avatar

@AmWiser, excellent point. I have a hard time getting them to pay for training that I need to do my job, like software or SQL or Access. Their take is that I should do that on my own time; they can hire someone to replace me that comes with that knowledge.

Seelix's avatar

No. Freedom of religion is also freedom from religion. That means that if someone wants to learn about religion, they can do so willingly, but it cannot be forced upon them.

The idea of the bible being taught in the workplace is, frankly, ridiculous.

marinelife's avatar

No, we should not. Everyone does not believe as you do. The Bible has no place in the workplace, and certainly no place in schools, which are sponsored by the state. Remember separation of church and state?

I am glad you have found peace and happiness through your faith, but proselytizing is an iffy proposition.

cazzie's avatar

I didn’t answer this as thoroughly as I wanted to. I think ‘preaching’ is different than teaching people about religion. I also think that it would have no place in the work environment unless a person was taking a post in a foreign country where they need to be made aware of the customs and social norms of that country, like military or embassy work.

I do think that teaching kids world politics and history is pretty empty without teaching them the religious movements behind them. I’m not talking about teaching kids to pray. THAT I would have a problem with. I mean teaching them the basics. I had no idea that Jewish people had rules about food or that they cut the foreskins off their baby boys. The only way I learned about that stuff was seeing it in movies as I got older and asking my mother about it.

I don’t think teaching kids about that sort of stuff at school should be a problem. It’s part of world culture and certainly shaped and still shapes events, art, literature in our world.

(I’m sure I read ‘from’ in Supermouse’s post… but that must not have been what they meant.)

The schools where I live now have religious/ethics classes from 1st grade. They are taught very simple concepts like why we have holidays on certain days and why it’s part of the culture here and also why some people wear scarves on their heads and don’t eat pork. All proper, practical knowledge. Part of these classes is to instil a sense of community and caring for people. One weeks lesson was based on ‘Friendship- what is it and why is it important.’ I think that is quite appropriate for elementary school kids.

JLeslie's avatar

No. Actually, @AdamF basically gave the answer I would typically give. I would assume the OP is Christian, maybe living in a predominantly Christian community, not thinking this would open up having to teach all religions in schools, and that some communities have very high percentages of non-Christians. But, admittedly my prejudice is showing in that assumption.

Schools can certainly teach many of the things mentioned by the OP and leave religion out of it. Somehow bunches of atheists and non-religious people are moral, have patience, are peaceful, happy, do well financially, deal with natural disaster, all of this can be taught without religion and God. Religion tends to exclude people.

I spent time with a Mormon friend of mine and she was telling me that in Utah the public schools accept religion class, Mormon religion, as a credit, and it is taught basically next to or across the street from school in a separate place. I don’t even mind if it is taught on school property as long as it is not required, and not snuck into other courses. If a high school student wants to study the Mormon religion out of interest or because they are raised Mormon fine, but I don’t want my Jewish 9 year old (if I had children) having mandatory prayer or teachings about the bible and Jesus. I have a feeling most Evangelicals don’t want their children being taught about praying to saints.

Which religion are you going to pick to be taught?

Aethelwine's avatar

I agree with @cazzie. My parents didn’t teach me shit about any religion, therefore I cannot participate in religious discussions. World religion should be a part of the curriculum. imo

JLeslie's avatar

To @cazzie and @jonsblond point, I am all for comparative religion electives in high school, and discussion or presentations of religious celebrations with younger children when talking about different cultures. Learning about other religions is fine, being preached to about one religion is unAmerican, offensive, and scary to me. But, I have to say I prefer no religious discussion in the younger grades, although I can tolerate it.

@cazzie I realize you don’t live in America, but I think the OP does, which is why I used that reference

SpatzieLover's avatar

Should we teach the bible in all schools and work places?

Whose bible?

Response moderated (Unhelpful)
elhaha1001's avatar

It depends what the purposes are for..

Different people have different beliefs and if you are teaching them about the humanity or the love and also tolerance for human being (from the story of Jesus and God of course) that would be terrific.

But if you are hoping that the people you teach would convert to your religion, and believing that there is only one God which is your God, uh oh that is so so wrong.

Teaching religion is actually very important especially to kids, so that kids will know about the good and the bad, the love and hatred, the “devil” and “angel”. It also teaches them about humanity and life.
Without religion, what examples can you think of to teach them?

But as they grow mature they will soon realize that they have their own choices. I myself do not really believe the bible so much lately. I only believe that maybe “God” exist. But what’s most important is that the humanity, the life, the love for people is huge and priceless.

http://www.fluther.com/116053/does-religion-have-any-future/

Please visit my question? :)

BhacSsylan's avatar

I, like @Fyrius, have little to add to the general discussion. It’s been said quite well by others. However, I do take issue with “Without religion, what examples can you think of to teach them?” This is just wrong. People do not need religion to teach them right and wrong. As you should know, if you claim to be agnostic and yet moral. In fact, the percentages of atheists in prison is actually far lower then the % who claim it in the general population. Most other populations are either the same or higher % in prison as in general population.

As far as examples, I think humanity can give us perfectly fine examples of what would be considered ‘angels’ and ‘demons’ without any supernaturalism necessary. Humanity and life, i would think, would be best taught through study of, uh, humans. And life.

Oh, and to just add my general two cents: teaching religion as doctrine=bad, teaching religion as history = fine. Religion has had a huge influence on cultures and writing and pretty much everything, leaving it out would be silly. But to teach it as Truth is a horrible idea.

elhaha1001's avatar

@Bhacssylan I don’t mean to the people generally.. but more to the kids. You can’t just tell that “You should be good” “You should love people” “Don’t hate each other” etc..

But when the children suddenly ask you “Why should I?”
that would be a great problem.. Then the only think we could think of is religion
“Because the religion said so.. just great..”
and then basically you will start talking about Jesus and hell and heaven..

Basically is these usually scares children and they will do the right thing (because they are afraid)

but when they are mature enough, they should make their own decision.

JLeslie's avatar

@elhaha1001 Teaching religion is actually very important especially to kids, so that kids will know about the good and the bad, the love and hatred, the “devil” and “angel”. It also teaches them about humanity and life. Without religion, what examples can you think of to teach them? Huh? Why do you need religion to teach good and bad? I grew up basically without religion except egtting together with family on holidays and I know good from bad. Treat others as you would want to be treated. Be nice and giving. You can know those things without religion.

BhacSsylan's avatar

@elhaha1001 No no no bad! I hate that idea to the core of my being! Saying “you have to do this or you’ll burn in hell!” is no different then emotional abuse. That kind of idea is why atheism is so ostricised as having a lack of morals. It’s far more moral and consistent then any religion. Telling them “religion says so” is stupid. May as well go with “because I say so”. You teach them to do it because it’s the right thing to do, not because they’ll burn in hell.

and @JLeslie has an excellent point i somehow didn’t mention. The golden rule was a secular idea way before jesus.

JLeslie's avatar

@elhaha1001 When a kid asks, “why shouldn’t I hit Sally?” The reply is because you would not want someone to hit you. Human beings can reason why things are good in society we don’t need to say Jesus said so, or that there is punishment in the afterlife. We see good deeds and bad behavior have consequence right here on earth. Plus, I think young children behave because their parents reward and punish them, not because of some boogie man in the clouds. Later, as we mature we begin to understand why it is better for many reasons to treat people with kindness and have a moral code.

elhaha1001's avatar

@Jleslie well not everyone is as lucky as you though..

Some kids grow up in broken families, or maybe with no love at all. Who will be teaching them love then if it isn’t for religion. And I’m speaking this from experience (not mine though)

@BhacSsylan I know.. I myself have realized that since I have grown up and I myself just don’t really believe in my own religion anymore.

I also attend religion phenomenology class in my university and I really see different sides of people, from religion, culture, even atheist included.

However my lecturer also told me that religion is also important because that is the first lesson you get about the “bad” and the “good”. the rest you can get from your own experience.

I’m seeing conditions from two sides (always from different sides) so that I wouldn’t be blinded by certain people’s opinions.

JLeslie's avatar

@elhaha1001 I have no problem with teachers explaining right and wrong and how to treat others. I have a problem with it being done in schools as a religious teaching.

BhacSsylan's avatar

@elhaha1001 But by your own admission, you’re not giving kids two sides. You’re giving them just religion. Religion shouldn’t be the first time they’re introduced to good and bad, because that sets the false example that that is where they have to come from, when it’s patently untrue. And while religion may offer a recourse from a broken home, it’s by no means the only one. And getting that help from another caring person, like a kind teacher or councilor, is going to do worlds more good for that person in terms of interpersonal relations, then having it only come from ‘on high’. I have to get to class now, so i won;t be able to respond for a bit, but seriously, think about your statements. You’re setting up religion as the only way to teach this stuff, and that’s really just not the case.

JLeslie's avatar

@elhaha1001 And, as pointed out above to the OP if you are teaching religion, which religion? Can I teach Buddhism to your children? Or, the Muslim faith? Judaism?

elhaha1001's avatar

@BhacSsylan hmm yeah I kind of get you right now. What i’m just trying to say is that usually with these religion it scares the children and they will usually do the right thing and they will understand the right and the wrong.

Maybe a different way to say it is if the kids do wrong then they will get a punishment. It’s more likely the same way. and every parents would do the same thing though..

@JLeslie noo i’m not teaching any religion.. teaching religion to children (I don’t have a child, wow I’m still a student) i think is okay, i mean religion is always good, no religions are bad. They never teach the bad things to people.

It’s just the method and the rules which are different.

SpatzieLover's avatar

@elhaha1001 What i’m just trying to say is that usually with these religion it scares the children and they will usually do the right thing and they will understand the right and the wrong.

And, as a mom, I do NOT like the idea of “scaring” children to teach them. Scare tactics do not work as a teaching method. Children learn by example.

Do as I say, not as I do…Does not compute.

elhaha1001's avatar

@elhaha1001 well not if you have a very naughty child.. Some of my nephews are really naughty though.. it depends on the child and how the parents teach them actually.

I’ll try to define ‘scaring’ then. Like if you do the right thing then you would get something special. Basically it means that if you don’t do it then you get nothing. But we should explain though that we you do that for a reason, not for just any something..

JLeslie's avatar

@elhaha1001 So you don’t care what religion? If your kids grow up a Jehovahs Witness, or Mormon, or Muslim, or Catholic it is all ok? They are all equal and good? You don’t care which religion is taught to your children at a young age and might influence them? You don’t care if they have different beliefs than you and worry you are going to hell?

JLeslie's avatar

I wish the OP would come back to thread and make a comment.

woodcutter's avatar

No. That’s what houses of worship are for. People can make a conscience decision to go there but at work or school a person will be trapped. Religion shouldn’t be a trap. AMWAY is a trap but the church shouldn’t be spreading it’s operatives outward to encapsulate people who are in a place to make money, or learn.

SpatzieLover's avatar

@elhaha1001 well not if you have a very naughty child There is no such thing, unless the parents have caused it to be so. You clearly do not have children.

Facade's avatar

No, we shouldn’t. And this is coming from a Christian. If people want to experience God, they can go to church or check out a library. Christian schools are obviously exempt.

elhaha1001's avatar

@JLeslie I don’t really get you. The basic principle of religion NOT the theory, the God, the differences, and whatever it is.. The principle of religion is the APPLICATION to human beings which is to love and care among other humans.

I wouldn’t mind if my children (if I have got one) have different beliefs. As long as it does not have any bad influence that should be fine.

Can you explain to me what influence might there be by a different religion?

Different people may have different opinions

elhaha1001's avatar

@SpatzieLover yeah, maybe because I don’t have a child (yet).. different parents different children though.. (this is really out of topic..)

crisw's avatar

Most of what can be said has been said. Wonder if @RTT will ever come back and respond to it.

SpatzieLover's avatar

@elhaha1001 It’s completely in topic. You, a non-parent, are stating we the parents should have the bible taught in school, along with the teaching of satan & angels to scare them onto the straight & narrow.

BTW- I am Catholic, and I homeschool. My son will never be scared by my religious teachings, because, I will keep the “scary” stuff out for him. he happens to be an extremely anxious child

elhaha1001's avatar

@SpatzieLover well thanks for the opinion anyway, might always learn something new from different person :)

JLeslie's avatar

@elhaha1001 If all you are teaching is the basics of goodness why do you have to bring religion into it? I’m an atheist, I prefer my young kids not be told by a teacher, a person my child respects and admires, that God exists and we are good because we follow Gods teachings. I actually would have no poblem if my kids grew up to be theists, but dread them being evangelicals praying for my soul everyday. Once you say religion is ok in school, how do you control exactly what is taught religiously? The bible belt would have a field day if it became the law of the land. If you lived in Iran you would be ok with religion in school? All the other children pretty much are Muslim, and the teacher teaches some Koran and your the not so religious raised Christian kid in the class?

elhaha1001's avatar

@JLeslie because religion teaches good things!

I’m from Indonesia, and I go to a catholic school. However there are not only catholics in my school, there are also different religions in my school (islam, buddhist, hindu, and christian) and they do not have any problem with religion teaching. And my school teaches not only catcholic, but also the cultures of Islam.

And what do they teach? Not the theories or the stories of the bible that we have to memorize, but the application of the bible, what it means, why does the bible say so. Every religion all have the same reason, which is the application, the love, the toleration.

The same also applies to my friend who are catholics but went to islam school. they were also taught the same way.

Maybe you’re implying that not all school are like that, but I’m also telling you that not all schools are like what you think.

And now in college i’m attending religion phenomenology class so that i understand the purposes of religions, even atheist too. I don’t say that being an atheist is bad (because I myself is considering to be atheist actually.)

But I do believe in “God”. I don’t know what it’s like or how it’s created. It’s a mystery.

However I still prefer the applications rather than the beliefs of God himself. That’s what really matters in the world right?

Btw, if you mind please answer my question here http://www.fluther.com/116053/does-religion-have-any-future/

it’s for my religion phenomenology assignment.

SpatzieLover's avatar

@elhaha1001 If you are Catholic, then you know that not every Christian follows the same bible. Here in America there are people that take the bible literally and believe the earth is only 10,000 years old. I certainly don’t want that bible application taught to me, let alone my child.

elhaha1001's avatar

@SpatzieLover oh really? tell me more.. I really don’t know this. Something new for me

SpatzieLover's avatar

Catholic Bible choosing tips

Young Earth explanation

How to choose a bible if you’re Baptist

A version of the Lutheran Study Bible

This list could go on forever. This is why I asked the OP, “Whose Bible?”

My direct answer to this question is the same as this answer The best choice to teach children religious studies are the parents of said child.

JLeslie's avatar

@elhaha1001 Many Christians here do not even accept Catholics as Christians. I would be willing to put my Jewish child in a Catholic school, I would never put them in a Christian school in the bile belt of America. The evangelicals want to recruit, I would not trust the authority to teach religion with a teacher. Sure many teachers would keep it general and all goodness and light, but too many would think it ok to teach their brand of religion. Why complicate this in the school system? All children should feel equal in school, their religion should not matter at all. I rather keep religion at home, in churches, not in places run by the government, and public schools are basically government institutions.

Dr_Dredd's avatar

@JLeslie Bile belt? Freudian slip… :-)

SpatzieLover's avatar

@JLeslie I would be willing to put my Jewish child in a Catholic school GA! Just as I’d be willing for my son to go to temple…but never step foot in an evangelical Christian church or group of any kind. Piranhas

elhaha1001's avatar

@SpatzieLover ok, thanks for the information. Well for you to know, only five religion is recognized in Indonesia, the rest of it isn’t recognized. If people here own other religion, they will not get any identification cards (our identification cards here mention religion). In order to get identification card, we need to admit that we have a religion. (ironic)

Here in Indonesia, catholic and christian use the same bible. And only one bible. The difference is just the method of teaching and the ritual.

People here are sometimes selfish, especially the ones in Jakarta. They just think that there religion is right, and other religions here are wrong (especially FPI, MUI, thinking that they actions are all right by using violence, try a little googling)

Recently Ahmadiyah and Islam clashed and because Islam is the majority here, the Ahmadiyah lost, and those bad people just killed them in the name of God (stupid)

Just so you know.. I thought America is more tolerant to religious subjects.
Here religious subjects are mostly solved by violence by the specific islam organizations
And I don’t mean that Islam is bad, it’s just those organizations

burning church down, killing and raping people in the name of god, stupid pornography issues, terrible!

I just want to know in America even though Christians have different teachings and bibles, do you tolerate each other? or they are forcing people to join their religion?

Or is it just the people, but not the religion?

BhacSsylan's avatar

@elhaha1001 Wait, i though you said religion teaches good things! What’s all this about killing in the name of religion?

Snark aside, america is more tolerant, however it still has a lot of work to do. Same as for a lot of issues. Atheists are still demonized by a large percent of the population (recent polls show a Muslim has a better chance of being president then an atheist, even despite the anti-islam sentiment currently running). Many Catholics try to get religious teachings put ahead of other religions, and of science. Something like only 30% of lower-level public science teachers teach Evolution as fact, and many teach intelligent design, even though one is a vetted scientific theory and the other is obstentiously religious. The Texas school board heavily influences textbook manufacturers (they’re one of the biggest consumers), and is highly religiously conservative (they recently voted to downplay Thomas Jefferson’s work in the revolution because of his anti-religious sentiments). There are currently a stagering number of anti-women’s rights laws in congress in the house based on ‘religious’ principles, such as the cutting of Planned Parenthood funding. And so on and so on.

Religion has some good ideas at it’s heart (heck, to quote Jefferson, he said that Jesus’ philosophy was one of the best ever devised), but the execution is often lacking. If my child wants to become theist, that is their right when they are old enough to hear the arguments and decide for themselves. But I will strive as hard as I can to keep that influence away from them until after developmental years, so that they can come to it with a clear and rational understanding.

Oh, and to respond to something you said way upthread, I really disagree that it’s a good idea to teach right and wrong by scaring the kids away from doing wrong (And that’s leaving aside the fact that it’s perfectly easy to do that without religion). If you teach them to do right because it’s the right thing to do (golden rule, etc), then the kid grows up understanding that, and behaving correctly all the time. You teach them that they need to do right because doing wrong gets punished, then you have a kid who thinks “it isn’t wrong if I don’t get caught”, which is one of the more popular an insidious things around. Heck, it’s borderline sociopath.

elhaha1001's avatar

@BhacSsylan yes all religion teaches good things. Now it depends on the perception of people, how do people accept the doctrine. clearly in the bible does not say to kill people. None would.

That’s why I asked is it the religion, or the people. These organizations in my country are very selfish, not tolerant, thinking that they are right. How could they even kill in the name of their religion while their religion do not permit those things? They are really very primitive.

It clearly should be differentiated between people’s behaviour and religion.

I would like some more information about why you wouldn’t want to put your child into Christians schools as if there is something more that I’m not getting, is it just dangerous? maybe @SpatzieLover or @JLeslie could explain too?

It’s night here so I want to get some sleep. I read the replies tomorrow morning. Thanks!

BhacSsylan's avatar

@elhaha1001 Er, that bit about not killing not true in the least. ‘That shalt not suffer a witch to live”, “you shall kill all the men and animals, but take the women as your slaves’, etc. I would agree that the New Testament doesn’t advocate killing, but the new testament is not the bible. Old testament has so much blood it’s crazy.

The main problem is that you can’t really separate the religion and the people, as the people are the ones teaching and propagating the religion. You would, it seem, consider it the people, however.

Also, Catholics tend to be a little less ‘gung-ho’ about it, for the most part. They’ll come down pretty hard on you if you’re in the religion (i was catholic for 18 years, so I know), but they’re less concerned with converting others. Evangelicals are, if i recall correctly, the largest segment of the population, and certainly the largest in the bile belt (i have to say I like that slip), and they are extremely vocal.

JLeslie's avatar

Oy. It wasn’t a slip, it was this flipping ipad. Lol.

@elhaha1001 For the most part Americans are tolerant of each others religions, but it does not stop the Evangelical Christians from thinking they are the only religion that is really right, they also think everyone should convert, and many of them like to say America is a Christian country, rather than America is a country that is predomnently Christian. There are many Christians who are wonderful people, who don’t walk around trying to convert people, but there are too many who do think they have the only line to God, who think atheists are immoral, and who want God in everything. Our larger more diverse cities who have people from every country and every religion tend to be more tolerant and not care one way or the other what religion someone is in my experience. Our smaller towns, with people who have less interaction with a variety of people tend to be more fearful and more likely to believe hateful things from small churches. Not that all small churches are hateful, they aren’t, I am just talking generalities.

We rely on our government, and the premise that our founding fathers came to America to escape religious prosecution to protect our ideal that there should be a separation of church and state. I cannot imagine having an ID card state issued that had my religion on it. It should be none of the governments concern what my religion is, and in America it isn’t. However, there are people in America who dwell in these things. I am sure you have seen media clips of people accusing our president of being Muslim like that would be the worst thing in the world. In the first place he is Christian, but in the second place, probably even more important, I find it disgusting that these hateful people say it like all Muslims are bad.

The Catholics in America for the most part seem to be willing to share the world with other religions at this time in history. I never feel judged by my Catholic friends. The Jews have always been accepting that there are other religions and feel no need to conver people. The Muslim religion I have less experience with, but my Muslim friends seem happy to be in America, and I have never had anyone try to preach their word to me. I just had lunch with a Mormon friend of mine, she is wonderful. Honestly the ony time I feel like anyone cares about my religion or says some whacky stuff about religion and the US is with Christians. Not the majority of Chistians I meet, they are in the minority, but if someone is going to say something hateful or judgemental or wanting to impose their beliefson others, I can bet they are Christian.

Ironic your country only recognizes five religions and you have to declare one. I guess that means you can’t be an atheist very easily in your country.

JLeslie's avatar

About Christian schools, I think there is more chance they would not respect that my children are Jewish. Around here they teach that tucking your shirt in makes you a more respectful person, and they still think corporal punishment is the best way to train a child. Christianity teaches obedience to a fault. Catholics would be more likely to not try to interfere with how I want to raise my child religiously. Catholics accept the theory of evolution, they look to science and medical science to prove or disprove miracles. They do not see religion separate from the scientific world, but that their religion and ethics needs to be weighed as science moves forward. I can accept that. Generally American Catholics are resonable people who understand it is important to respect other religions, because they want to be respected themselves.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

Fact from fiction truth from diction, I believe access to the Bible should be available in all work places and it should be taught in school with an opt-out clause which I am sure would be used in droves, (let me put on my fire retardant cloak) but as you can see my many judging is not something that just the Bible dose; many posters have done a good job on their own no Bible involved.

The Bible can be quite comforting and reassuring to a lot of people. Most people however don’t want to be associated with the Bible because it involves God. They would rather handle life’s turmoil with drugs, booze, sex, violence, anorexia, and then some. Look at the media one or more of which they seem to “preach” through movies, shows, and sitcoms weekly.

I would agree with you, if taken in the Spirit of the Bible it will show you how to leave at peace with your neighbors, have harmony in your family be honest, kind, and benevolent, just to point out a few. Even if the Bible turn out to be a bunch of hoodoo (which none of us will eve know if the Bible isn’t true) your chances of living a less chaotic life is much greater because of it. If you died but the Bible is real….then you have a very big problem.

Religion is abused and people use the Bible as a weapon; that is sadly true in a lot of cases but that was man not God that did it. Democracy has been abused by societies and government I don’t see anyone saying we should get rid of it because man has a way of making it a bastard by his ignorance. They did try that in Russia and some other places but what they came up with they even abused. Nothing that man can touch will not be exploited and abused in some fashion. Blame the drive not the vehicle.

Where you see comfort and contentment in the Bible many other who (even through the post I read) seem to tacitly try to refer to you as a nut job because you believe the Bible, many of them will battle loneliness with assaulting others, their feeling of hopelessness with a trip to the unlicensed back alley pharmacist with a trunk full of contraband, or try to fix their feeling of being unloved with a slew of Craigslist honeys, or half the basketball team. Not everyone believes their problems can be managed themselves with the right fling, chemical, gang affiliation, fermented beverage, etc. Those like you, who believe there is a power that is greater than ourselves and look to that is seen to be chasing mirrors or following liars and idiots. But I say bully for you, they can’t pray for those who have wronged them when the feeling is a gun or baseball bat works better; beside they are too busy trying to tell you that what you believe in amounts to the Easter Bunny; they have judging of their own to do…….

crisw's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central

“The Bible can be quite comforting and reassuring to a lot of people. Most people however don’t want to be associated with the Bible because it involves God. They would rather handle life’s turmoil with drugs, booze, sex, violence, anorexia, and then some.”

Wow, is that ever a false dilemma!

BhacSsylan's avatar

@crisw never knew i was actually dealing with life with drugs and violence and sex! I wonder how I missed all that happening.

Also, holy shit @Hypocrisy_Central. No one in this thread, for the most part, ahs been attacking religion as a totally bad thing. I admit I have a little, but even i said that my children will have the option, even though I do not believe. Absolutely no one is saying religion should be abolished, which you somehow picked up. We’re saying it shouldn’t be in all workplaces and schools, because the vast majority of those are non religious! We’re simply saying that religion should not be forced upon us in the workplace or our kids in school. You can have your churches and mosques and synagogues etc all you’d like. But you do not have the right to force it on others.

JLeslie's avatar

Man, I wish I drank and had more sex LOL.

JLeslie's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central So should these work places have a plethora of bibles? King James, Koran, Etc. Why can’t an employee bring their own bible if they see fit, why do you think a workplace should supply a bible?

JLeslie's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central And, is that what you think about the many many atheists in our collective, that we are boozing or drugging? Interesting. Most of the atheists I know drink less than the average from my own personal experience. They also mostly are responsible hard working people who care about relationships, family, society.

RareDenver's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central

If you died but the Bible is real….then you have a very big problem

If you died but the Torah is real….then you have a very big problem

If you died but the Koran is real….then you have a very big problem

If you died but the Śruti and Smriti is real….then you have a very big problem

If you died but the Vinaya is real….then you have a very big problem

If you died but the Theogony is real….then you have a very big problem

If you died but the Satkhandagama is real….then you have a very big problem

If you died but the Holy Piby is real….then you have a very big problem

If you died but the Tao Te Ching is real….then you have a very big problem

If you died but the Yasna is real….then you have a very big problem

If you died but the Green Eggs & Ham by Dr. Seuss is real….then you have a very big problem

We could go on bit I think I have made my point

crisw's avatar

@BhacSsylan

“never knew i was actually dealing with life with drugs and violence and sex! I wonder how I missed all that happening.”

Yeah, me neither. Well, maybe sex sometimes.:>) I certainly cannot list anorexia among my stratagems, though.

Truthfully, though, I try to handle life’s problems with reason and thought. I think that actually leads to better coping mechanisms, because there is no incongruity between what is reasonable and trying to figure out what some ancient book of goatherder campfire stories is supposed to be telling me to do.

BhacSsylan's avatar

@crisw The sex point is fair, i suppose. But seeing as my girlfriend is ~2k miles away now even that’s out for the moment. But according to @Hypocrisy_Central I’m probably running around all over the place behind her back. I guess all the booze is making me not remember it. Or the booze.

And agreed about the reasoning. I’ve always found it to be a much more robust way of finding my way through problems. Heck, one of the reasons I left the church was the inconsistencies I could not longer ignore.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@crisw, @BhacSsylan, @JLeslie, and @RareDenver Let me simplify if not enlighten, I am not saying that most people cope in that manner (they may but I have no real numbers) but everyone has their own “god” the thing they turn to get through the day or preserve their sanity. People don’t use everything or all of that list, some might only use a small part or they might use something I didn’t list, the list is vast; but people always use something. I know people who can’t get through the day with out smoking a rock, others can’t get through without a 40oz of something, another woman could not go 36 hours without having sex to the point she would go to bars to either end up in some guy’s bed or have him in hers. Everybody as their “god”, it may not be a god you pray to but one you service and pay homage to often if not daily.

No one in this thread, for the most part, ahs been attacking religion as a totally bad thing. I admit I have a little, but even i said that my children will have the option, even though I do not believe. Absolutely no one is saying religion should be abolished, which you somehow picked up. On the flip side other beliefs (non-religious) have been mildly scolded but those who believe it will not sit by an not support it. Being a liberally based site (not that it is a nasty thing) I am sure you can fathom what some of those subjects might be which I do not want to mention for fear it will hijack the thread and sending into a whole different argument.

We’re saying it shouldn’t be in all workplaces and schools, because the vast majority of those are non religious! I understand what you are saying in theory. In communities and the likes most people my not be or practice <insert whatever> but are made to accept <insert whatever> as a from of equal billing or equal access etc. If one read I didn’t agree with the OP that is should be taught but that it should be available for those who want it, and those who do want it should have a place to practice it even if in a dedicated space for them to do it as to not bother the non-religious people.

So should these work places have a plethora of bibles? King James, Koran, Etc. Why can’t an employee bring their own bible if they see fit, why do you think a workplace should supply a bible? These days, no. You can have all that on a Kendall or flash drive they can check out and view through their laptop of PC. But I would suggest they bring their own, I prefer using my own Word when I want to get fed.

And, is that what you think about the many many atheists in our collective, that we are boozing or drugging? No, in reality that would be too nebulous for anyone to believe. But there are many who do as with other people. Not all Christians avoid affairs or have sex before marriage, we are human, we can’t be as perfect as Jesus because if we did we would not have need of Him. They have this movie coming out I think a spin-off or remake of Arthur (the lovable British lush who finds love) in the trailer I do believe I see him either drunk or drinking but never praying. I certainly never say the original Arthur (movie wise) praying but always slashing it down. The main Characters in Basic Instinct certainly did more drinking and fornicating than praying. The media being live imitating art imitating life shows far more examples of people engaging in the type of activities mentioned than prayer, unless what we watch is suppose to be total fantasy?

We could go on bit I think I have made my point It was a mute point. I am not a slow witted Southerner with a bad hair cut, I know that could be a possibility. I also know there could be no God and atheist are right (however no one will ever know that). Following the Bible requires faith just like not following the Bible requires you have faith in not believing or the absence of God. Comes down to which color of the roulette wheel you feel better laying your chips on.

BhacSsylan's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central I have absolutely no clue what you meant in your first response to me. Have fun with that. As to the second, the OP said ‘Taught’, not ‘available’. And even then, the problem is that if you provide access to only a single religion’s holy book, in a space that should be open to all, you’re being discriminatory, plain and simple. Also, many places do have an interfaith space. Heck, the pentagon has one. I’m a little hesitant on those, but i really don’t mind if it’s truly open-access, and the worshipers bring their own supplies. But as soon as you start teaching or providing materials for one religion over another you’re playing favorites, and that’s just plain wrong if it’s not a religious space.

Also, I won’t flat out disagree with your assumption that ‘everyone needs something’, but I will say that, when you make a claim, you had better back it up. Because @crisw, @JLeslie, myself, and many others in this thread have given examples of perfectly upstanding atheists, who do not turn to excessive drugs or sex or violence or whatever. We have things that make us happy, but for me that’s my work and friends and a few other things. What is this crazy void that needs filling, exactly?

And just to say, there are religious addicts and religious nymphomaniacs and oh god there are religious sociopaths. So don’t you dare try and pin that crap on us.And really? Movies? We’re almost never given religions of those involved, and, as you say, you don’t see people obviously praying all the time, because most people don’t randomly start praying during their daily lives, and those that may frequently do it in the privacy of their own heads. So going ‘I’ve seen bad people on screen!’ does absolutely nothing for your point.

Heck, most prayer you see in movies is praying before they start shooting people. You really want to go down that road? And movies always imitate life? Man, i wonder where all the aliens and starships and underground cities and elves and all the rest are hiding. Maybe all the booze is hiding that, too.

crisw's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central

When we rely on our own faculties of reason, rather than basing our moralities and actions on an inconsistent and irrelevant construct, there is no void to be filled. That is what gets us through the day. That is what preserves our sanity. We do it ourselves. We don’t see ourselves as weak and helpless; we make the world what it is, we carve our paths and walk on them. We are not simple pawns which must be moved by outside forces in accordance to rules we cannot comprehend. What we can understand, we do, and use it to inform our lives. What we cannot understand, we seek to understand. There is nothing beyond this; no supernatural realm. We survive (or perish!) by the power of our own brains.

Thammuz's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central The media being live imitating art imitating life shows far more examples of people engaging in the type of activities mentioned than prayer

Well no shit, that would be fucking boring. The only movie where praying was ever worth watching is “The Boondock Saints”. And even then it’s only thrown in there because it’s one of the main characters’ distinctive traits: being Irish, being catholic and killing people. And it’s only entertaining because you know there’s going to be a violent shootout to balance the books right after that.

And, by the way, there is a direct correlation between social illnesses and religiosity. The important part is from point 17 to 19. Please note that the source is of religious inclination and, therefore, has no interest in promoting atheism. So next time you want to imply that religion can be a substitute for alcoholism (see Ireland), careless sex (see USA) and the like, think twice and check your facts.

@Hypocrisy_Central Following the Bible requires faith just like not following the Bible requires you have faith in not believing or the absence of God.
Burden of proof. I don’t believe anything on faith that is of any consequence to my understanding of reality (i.e. i can accept a friend of mine telling me he was late because he missed the bus and not having proof for that, but I won’t accept “reality is ruled by an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent father figure who lives outside of reality and so forth” without compelling scientific evidence for it). I will believe in god the moment someone proves its existence in a scientifically sound way. Before that, I don’t. You compared it to picking a number/colour on a roulette wheel. If that’s the case, then atheism is keeping your money and going home.

A claim made with no evidence to support it can also be dismissed without evidence.

Qingu's avatar

Late to the party, but… I do think we should teach the Bible in school, along with the Code of Hammurabi, the Epic of Gilgamesh, and other Mesopotamian mythology. It’s a hugely important text that has influenced the history of religion and society.

But it shouldn’t be allowed to be taught in the context that the OP wants to teach it, because of the whole separation of church and state thing… and also because it’s a fucking terrible book that condones slavery, rape, and genocide.

JLeslie's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central All I can say is you reinforce for me that too many people raised with the bible believe someone cannot be grounded without religion. I guess since you believe your peace, morality, coping, and contribution in the world was taught to you through religion, it is hard for you to understand that people can have that without religion. I understand why people feel they get that from religion, I just don’t get why so many people don’t that a person can have those things without religion.

JLeslie's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central @elhaha1001 Not exactly related, but I thought this question might be interesting to you. Might help you understand why atheists see no need for religion to teach what we are covering, although I acknowledge religion can be a way to teach these things.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@BhacSsylan As to the second, the OP said ‘Taught’, not ‘available’. And even then, the problem is that if you provide access to only a single religion’s holy book, in a space that should be open to all, you’re being discriminatory, plain and simple. Dial back the emotions, have some tea or a cup of coffee, you seem to be reading or reading into what I said of things that are not there. I said I didn’t sign on to the “taught” but “access”, you did catch that right? I am not agreeing with him/her, so you can be happy about that, use it as a feather in your cap if you wish. I also never said restricted to a single religious book. I alluded to the Book of Mormon, the Bible, the Torah, the Quran, etc could be made available by way of a Kendall or USB flash device and there would not have to be a stack of books physically anywhere, does that clear it up for you?

Because @crisw, @JLeslie, myself, and many others in this thread have given examples of perfectly upstanding atheists, who do not turn to excessive drugs or sex or violence or whatever. If you think I was specifically saying you @crisw, @JLeslie, or anyone else is boozing pill poppers I don’t know what you are hearing. I did not say every single person who choose not to follow the Bible is a boozing pill popper whoring around.

I mentioned that because you made the point in Movies? We’re almost never given religions of those involved, and, as you say, you don’t see people obviously praying all the time, because most people don’t randomly start praying during their daily lives, and those that may frequently do it in the privacy of their own heads. In TVland there would hardly be anyone other than atheist because you rarely are told what affiliation they are, but by the actions of the character you can assume they are not devoutly religious, oh, they do show Middle Eastern extremist has being highly devout but not in a good light. They do show the Christian zealot up front and personal too. And if they show a Christian who is not a zealot or religious whack job he is a odd person and one to abuse and take advantage of as Ned Flanders
of the Simpsons. Character wise he is one of better citizens of Springfield. And many people pray often during the say but you won’t see that on TV or in movies because you are right many people sone get “religious” or “spiritual” except when carnage or death seems eminent. You more often see characters drunk, drinking, doing violence, and fornicating (though most don’t care of that anymore) if shows and movies that have that don’t point out that it is science fiction as zombies and aliens then I guess they should; we don’t want people to believe the world (at least the US) actually have stuff like that happening way more than it shouldn’t.
So don’t you dare try and pin that crap on us.And really? Pinning what crap on you? That is one I missed because I never said you were the fault of anything. If you think I had please point it out to me. If I said “we have this or that problem because of @BhacSsylan” point it out, had to be a typo or something.

@Thammuz*So next time you want to imply that religion can be a substitute for alcoholism (see Ireland), careless sex (see USA) and the like, think twice and check your facts.* Are you implying everyone who is an alcoholic had no choice to get their? Was there a gene at the moment it is introduced to alcohol causes a person to lose control and become a drinking lush? I guess you have facts? If we We survive (or perish!) by the power of our own brains. then some people’s brains are not that strong or wasn’t strong enough not to start drinking.

@JLeslie All I can say is you reinforce for me that too many people raised with the bible believe someone cannot be grounded without religion. Am I? I am sorry if I was that nebulous, but I had no intention so tell you that you could not be grounded or that you were not grounded. I believe everyone the religious and the non-religious grounds themselves with something. I could go through the list of all possible things but I don’t have the time and space to do that list. Some of the things that people try or chose to anchor themselves with are not overly positives things. Some ground themselves in gangs because they get the attention and what they feel is love they never got at home. That is not everyone but a lot of people. Some doing it painting, with music, cooking and or eating as well.

I guess since you believe your peace, morality, coping, and contribution in the world was taught to you through religion, it is hard for you to understand that people can have that without religion. Not any harder for you to believe that man would not be living “The Lord of The Flies” if it were not for religion applied correctly.

I understand why people feel they get that from religion, I just don’t get why so many people don’t that a person can have those things without religion. Why? Can you have a personal relationship with music, drinking, racing cars, sailing a boat or whatever that thing is that gets you through the week? Those are just actions or objects. If you can have a spiritual relationship with them please explain it to me then I will know? Or just tail me what is it you get that is equal to a spiritual relationship with God that is equal? Truly, I am all ears.

JLeslie's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central I realize you are generalizing and not accusing all atheists of these negative things. I tried to have some levity in one of my answers about the drinking and sex. :) I think some of it depends on the community around you. I don’t know where or how you grew up, and I apologyze for not remembering where you live now, I know we have talked many times before on fluther. Anyway, in my circles athiests tend to be well educated, financially successful, stable people. I can see how in other communities the people who seem to have strayed or never had religion are reckless and misdirected. I know stories of people who were boozing, or committing crimes and then found Jesus and straightened themselves out. I think it is great when religion can help someone in that way. But, the people I am usually with don’t have these types of experiences. They are athiests usually because they are more science minded or grew up around a lot of atheists. Many Jewish people are athiests, and as a group we are pretty successful. A generalization, of course, there are good and bad people in every group, and there are poor and wealthy in every culture and group. And, it depends how we are dividing up groups. Religion, ethnicity, race, socio economics, so many ways to look at it.

BhacSsylan's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central first, I’ll apologize in that I misunderstood what you wrote, I thought you were saying the OP wanted it allowed, as opposed to that being your belief. My mistake.

However, I think it’s pretty telling that the ‘Few things’ you pick off your list are all negatives. In giving those as your only examples you did very much accuse us all of filling our supposedly dead lives with horrible things. Only after we all pointed out the ridiculousness of the statement do you concede that perfectly viable things can be the focus of attention, too. But you still have given absolutely no reason for there to exist some giant hole in all of our lives that needs filling.

And don’t give me “they don’t look christian to me!” You have no evidence that, A) they’re not meant, by the writers, to be religious, or B) That thier religious affiliation or lack thereof has any bearing on their actions, unless they feel like having a character loathed and so they make then a Muslim terrorist. And most people have the rational ability to divide between reality and fantasy. My point in that is showing that movies are not at all a ‘reflection of life’. They’re fantasy, and if you’re taking all your societal norms from that you’d be pretty fucked up by most standards. Even our horrible atheist ones.

And yes, you are trying to pin that on us. You’re trying to say that a lack of belief in god causes these behaviors, and it’s just not true. You’re trying to say that belief in religion removes the possibility of these things, but that’s also not true. Again, i point to the fact that there are proportionately lower numbers of Atheists in prison, and @Thammuz‘s research, which you completely ignored, showed a pretty good link between increased religiosity and violence.

“We survive (or perish!) by the power of our own brains. then some people’s brains are not that strong” So, religion is the haven of those with weak brains? Good to know. Sure your religious leader would be glad to have you on their side.

And, back up your statements, this is getting ridiculous. Everyone’s religious? By what measure? And how does this ‘Anchoring’ in religion offer anything? By all the evidence it has an even better chance of causing problems then ‘anchoring’ in something else.

And i have a great relationship with my girlfriend, still strong despite being on almost opposite coasts. I have great friends who I still talk with often. And with my parents and much of the rest of my family, and I’m decidedly not spiritual. How are my relationships somehow less valid then yours? And who are you to judge them so?

JLeslie's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central oops, tapped answer too soon. I think I focus on what is in front of me, on earth, more tangible. I find grace in my relationship with my husband, in helping others, in watching the deer in my backyard. I appreciate the beauty of the world, and my social interactions, as much as a religious person does. I am grateful for the people who come into my life.

crisw's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central

“Or just tail me what is it you get that is equal to a spiritual relationship with God that is equal? ”

My relationship with my husband, my family, my friends and my animals.

My wonder and awe at experiencing and learning about the world that surrounds me, and at exploring the world of ideas.

Standing beneath the stars and realizing I am made from stars.

elhaha1001's avatar

There are many Christians who are wonderful people, who don’t walk around trying to convert people, but there are too many who do think they have the only line to God, who think atheists are immoral, and who want God in everything

@JLeslie well, same here.. The Christians are actually the same here.. trying to convert people into their religion.. saying other religions are bad, etc..

But quoting your answer, I just want to say that you can’t blame religion. It’s just how people teach the other people and the how those other people take the lessons.

If they receive lesson from someone who is primitive and stubborn they would be likely to be the same.

My friend who is a Christian also hated his own people.. He does not like the way Christians spread their religion. He said that it’s just so selfish. they even said that Mary is not real to the Catholics

however if they receive the lesson from someone who is open-minded, tolerant, they would be more likely to be the same too.

Christians have different lecturers, fathers, and whatever it is right? It depends who they learn their lesson from, but not the religion.

About the school, some part of Indonesia is the same way. A specific Islam school here requires every girl to wear hijab.. but maybe because they are all Islam
However in Jakarta, most people are tolerant, the Islam school does not require them to wear hijab or anything.. they are free.

The Christian school here seems to have no problems at all and they are relatively tolerant.

In America, are there any Christian schools which is as tolerant as the Catholic school? Or maybe you haven’t heard any of it?

Thammuz's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Are you implying everyone who is an alcoholic had no choice to get their? Was there a gene at the moment it is introduced to alcohol causes a person to lose control and become a drinking lush? I guess you have facts? If we We survive (or perish!) by the power of our own brains. then some people’s brains are not that strong or wasn’t strong enough not to start drinking.

I could go the deterministic route and say yes, they probably didn’t have an actual choice, but let’s not, let’s entertain the idea it was their choice: how does this change anything regarding the fact that your assertion that one would use the bible as a substitute for drinking, drugging, having sex with prostitutes, and so forth, was completely wrong?

What the study I linked has highlighted is that there is a significant correlation between a nation being more religious and it having “higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion” (quoted directly from the beginning of point #18) and I’m willing to bet my arse that with 15 more minutes I will find a study that correlates alcoholism as well. Which not only means that atheists don’t resort to, let’s call it “unruly”, behaviour more often than theists, but that theists are far more likely to do so.

So, yeah, you’re completely right: some people’s brains are not that strong or weren’t strong enough not to start drinking. They’re the same people whose brains aren’t strong enough not to be religious, apparently.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@BhacSsylan However, I think it’s pretty telling that the ‘Few things’ you pick off your list are all negatives. Because I chose the things one would most likely see on TV? It was in reflection to the media being life imitating art imitating life. I know studios hire all those researchers to make there science fiction or general fiction which ever you choose to call it seem more real and relatable to the day in day out lives of people or maybe just relatable as plausible aside from the aliens and zombies. So while they are creating this fiction that is suppose to be anyplace you could find here on Earth more likely the US the day in and out things most of these characters do or use is unwedded sex, violence tons of that, and bars and booze. If I sat and watched 6 shows on any given night I am sure I would see one, if not all, of the things I pointed out; unwedded sex or talk and planning of such, violence, or meeting at a bar, drinking of beer, mai tai, whisky, margaritas, etc. I can record it, make a CD and mail it to you so you can have your undeniable truth. My point in that is showing that movies are not at all a ‘reflection of life’. They’re fantasy, They don’t reflect life huh? So in real life we don’t go to the movies, have jobs, eat at restaurants, drive on freeways, shop for shoes, etc, etc? I thought we did, they do those things and then some in the movies…..but movies have no grounding in real life……wow…….

In giving those as your only examples you did very much accuse us all of filling our supposedly dead lives with horrible things. No more than many of you would use Jim Baker as all Christians are hypocrites, David Koresh as Christians being whack jobs and Warren Jeffs as Christians are sexually demented. And some information, do not put word into my mouth I did not say. If I were to accuse you I would do it straight out. If you are going to claim to know what I said after I told you what I said and what I meant I would have to assume you believe me to either be lying or that I am some slow witted Southerner who can’t remember what comes from his mouth.

But you still have given absolutely no reason for there to exist some giant hole in all of our lives that needs filling. I don’t have to. And further more, I don’t care. If no one needs what they do for enjoyment, peace of mind or whatever if they are doing it for nothing than stupid for them.

And yes, you are trying to pin that on us. You’re trying to say that a lack of belief in god causes these behaviors, and it’s just not true. You’re trying to say that belief in religion removes the possibility of these things, but that’s also not true. There is only one part of that you half got right, the rest I am dismissing out right, too daft to even get into. It is not the mere belief in any religion it is the spirit of following the religion. You can sit in church for years and not really be a Christian in the heart. If a person strive to be a Christ was I think you’d have to be an idiot 50 times over if you think they will threaten your property, your money, or try to sleep with your wife.

Again, i point to the fact that there are proportionately lower numbers of Atheists in prison, Nope, seen it but it is all about the numbers game. There are less Native Americans in prison too, are we to say they are less prone to violence than the rest of us? Or what about Little People, they are more gentle and less prone to violence as well? There are far less people here who openly admit to being atheist, but maybe it is different in your neck of the country.

The rest of it was so disjointed my head is spinning. And it really has in the long run little to do with if God or Bibles should be in the workplace. As a Christian trying his best to follow Christ rest assured you would benefit because I would never attempt to carjack your vehicle, steal your big screen, pummel you the ground and relieve you of your wallet, or steal your wife away from you Do you think if I was full of alcohol I would care about you or what you have that much? Be careful how you answer that less you find your foot aside your own tongue.

I am not attacking you nor trying to convert you; you will believe what you want how you want. If you are right we will never know it. If I am right……well……you will have a long, long time to think about it.

@Thammuz*let’s entertain the idea it was their choice: how does this change anything regarding the fact that your assertion that one would use the bible as a substitute for drinking, drugging, having sex with prostitutes, and so forth, was completely wrong?* Why? Why would one want to be an alcoholic by choice? That is like saying someone would want to have cancer by choice. Is there a plus to being an alcoholic? Many I have met who are or were alcoholics got there because they started using alcohol to “numb the pain” escape reality, hide inside their own head. The short answer was it in some way help them manage a problem be it stress or something else.

Which not only means that atheists don’t resort to, let’s call it “unruly”, behaviour[sic] more often than theists, but that theists are far more likely to do so. Well, let me put your head to rest I don’t think atheist have the market cornered on alcoholism anymore than I think Christians have the market corned on crusades and other destructive things people have done in the name of God. If you want to place a cloud over religion because of the bad examples like Jim Jones, David Koresh, et al. go right ahead, that don’t make it so anymore than Hadithah proves all US servicemen are child rapist and killers.

RTT's avatar

I just want to say I am very sorry for getting people upset about this question. I am not trying to push my religion on anybody. I struggle living life everyday and pray a lot. I hope prayer does help because I do like what goes on in this world. I just the world a better place to live in. RTT

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@RTT Neither am I that never works, no one can come to or flee from any religion or God and or gods unless they are willing….. ;-)

JLeslie's avatar

@elhaha1001 It’s not religion its the people? The people will be the ones teaching the children! I don’t want to risk someone telling my children their parents are wrong, that their religion will damn them to hell, and they must be saved to be safe and happy. Or, some sort of undertone that without religion they will wind up drunk, unhappy, promiscuous, and hopeless as @Hypocrisy_Central has generalized. I realize @Hypocrisy_Central does not think this about all atheists, but some sort of stupid comment by another student or teacher to a young child could really affect them. It is competely different than @Hypocrisy_Central and I discussing it as adults on fluther.

JLeslie's avatar

@RTT We aren’t upset, we are having a discussion. The question is good. I was just wondering what your opinion is now that you have heard some of the arguments on both sides?

@RTT @Hypocrisy_Central @elhaha1001 I think maybe what I want to ask is, what do you think about saying in schools God doesn’t exist, religious people have faith in something that cannot deliver, there is no magical being saving you in a storm or curing your cancer. This is actually the atheist equivalent of Jesus is God, you must believe to be saved. Does it feel offensive? To people who are not religious, the religious talk can feel very offensive. Even to religious people, being told another religion is the right one and theirs is wrong is disconcerting. You have to think of yourself in the minority position, and be sure you are ok with it. Because once you open the box and give permission for religion in public places, you open the forum for all of it.

Qingu's avatar

@RTT, you definitely didn’t make me upset! These questions are like catnip to me.

AdamF's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central “As a Christian trying his best to follow Christ rest assured you would benefit because I would never attempt to carjack your vehicle, steal your big screen, pummel you the ground and relieve you of your wallet, or steal your wife away from you”

Very few people in society can classify as having antisocial personality disorders (eg. sociopaths). A quick google suggests something like 2%. And yet you seem to be suggesting that without Christianity, you would behave like one. Do you really believe this?

From this perspective, how do you explain the fact that despite lacking any belief in gods of any sort, millions of atheists live happy, compassionate, loving and empathetic lives?

Relatedly, you might want to read this paper.

http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/Zuckerman_on_Atheism.pdf

@RTT not upset either…no worries at all.

cazzie's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central if it is only your belief in a god that is keeping you from doing bad things, please keep going to church. Please don’t assume the rest of us need it to know right from wrong.

JLeslie's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central if it was proven tomorrow God does not exist and Jesus was not his son would you go out and start raping and pilaging? I do know people who seem to stay in line because of their religious beliefs, say things like, I choose to do the right thing every day.” I guess I am glad they have their religion then, but I find it scary and sad. I don’t feel like I choose to be good every day, it is basically just my nature, how I was raised, the example given to me to follow, and what I have observed to be a successful way to live. I guess if someone grows up in a crap situation with bullets flying, drugs, lies, and stealing all around them, they might need something to scare them straight and show them the way. I am not saying all religious people grew up in adverse conditions, I am only talking about a specific group of people who seem to need religion to be decent people. This ties back to what I said above about the different types of athiests or people who are not religious.

AdamF's avatar

@elhaha1001 Early on you raised this question “I would like some more information about why you wouldn’t want to put your child into Christians schools as if there is something more that I’m not getting, is it just dangerous?”

I wouldn’t put my child in a Christian School for a variety of reasons. Here are five that come to mind.

I want my children to:

1) link their views on morality directly to the wellbeing of conscious creatures. Christianity repeatedly divorces these concepts, and anchors morality to authoritarian, antiquated, and unsubstantiated assertions about what is right or wrong that are often ridiculous or blatantly immoral.

2) be kind to others because they recognise themselves in others, not because of fear of some imagined hell, or receiving some promised utopia after they’re dead, or because some bloke claimed 2000 years ago that it’ll makes god happy.

3) accept something is true, because reason and evidence supports it to be true. Not because a book or religious authority claims it to be true.

4) have healthy view on sex and sexuality. There is nothing immoral about consenting adults having sex, masturbating, or being homosexual. Nothing.

5) have the same opportunities for free thought that I had growing up. School is for learning, not indoctrination. Christian schools advertise their willingness to cross this line.

Hence, no religious schools for my kids.

Fyrius's avatar

Oh dear, have we arrived at the “religion has/doesn’t have a monopoly on morality” stage again?
Excuse me for not properly keeping up with the thread. It’s moving a bit too fast for me, and I also sort of considered this thread over after the first five posts.

I’m going to leave some (slightly adapted) copypasta here that might be helpful.

“Here’s a thought.
Imagine for a moment that it turns out eating children is not against the word of god. In fact, there’s one bible passage that says “children are yum-yum, thou canst eat children, try barbecue sauce” (made-up-verse 12:15). Your Christian friend and his wife point out this verse to you, and tell you they plan to kill and eat their six year old daughter, and you’re invited. Would you happily join in the merriment, or would you freak out and do anything in your power to stop them?

If you’re not okay with doing horrible things even when the bible says they’re not wrong, then your morality doesn’t really come from the bible, it comes from somewhere else.

It’s true that theoretically, our moral intuitions are subjective, but in practise we get by just fine. Most people agree on what’s right and wrong anyway.
I’m religion-free and I still think adultery is a jerk move that betrays the trust of someone you love. I don’t steal things, either, because those things belong to someone else. It’s really not all that complicated.”

elhaha1001's avatar

It’s not religion its the people? The people will be the ones teaching the children! I don’t want to risk someone telling my children their parents are wrong, that their religion will damn them to hell, and they must be saved to be safe and happy.

@JLeslie well, then it’s just the same, it’s the people right?

Have you watched the film Chocolat? Hope it’s a good film example of what I’m trying to say.

BhacSsylan's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central I’m sorry you think that TV and movies are all perfect reflections of reality, but it’s just incorrect, but it seems like you won’t believe a word against it, so have fun with that. TV and movies relate to reality, so we can understand what’s going on, but past that it tends to break down fast. And where you’re getting your ‘facts’ that they’re all highly based on reality I don’t know.

Also, really? “but by the actions of the character you can assume they are not devoutly religious,” Ah, i see. So when people do un-christian things, it’s fake, even if they claim to be christian. But anyone who doesn’t declare a religion must be atheist. and its so clear, because they act in a way you wouldn’t sanction. Despite any amount of evidence that people in the real world don’t act like that. Have fun with that.

Basically, your argument comes down to ‘people doing bad things are atheist, and it reflects reality because movies always do. Except for all the times they don’t. But any time i can claim someone is an atheist, it’s true. Because.”

Oh, and I’m sorry for thinking that real numbers, relefting on reality, somehow are less relevant then movies. And i totally believe there are less Native Americans, because a large number of the population live on reservations, where they do their own policing. That shows the data makes even more sense.

So, sorry. You’re sitting there and saying that “Movies are real! Except when I don’t think they are!” and dismissing the real data as not true. This is rediculous, and I’m not sure why i even tried anymore.

@RTT I’ll join in with the others, in that this is not a bad question. A controversial one, but not bad, so don’t feel bad for asking it.

@Fyrius But, the movies, fyrius! What about the movies! They all say that atheists are horrible people!

JLeslie's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Please remind me, are you in the bible belt? I don’t ask that to judge you, or make assumptions, I ask because living here in the bible belt is so different than other parts of the country. I kind of understand why people who grew up and live here feel as you do.

Thammuz's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Why? Why would one want to be an alcoholic by choice?
I don’t fucking know, you asked me whether they had a choice or not.

I said that they actually probably don’t, but even if they did this changes no-fucking-thing about my point of you being full of shit when claiming that religious people are less likely to be subject of social ills. Did you get it this time around or are you pretending to understand your own language on a lower level than a foreigner?

And besides, if you actually bothered to read the whole post instead of the first three sentences, you would have found out that I actually acknowledged that it’s not something one chooses. To quote myself: “So, yeah, you’re completely right: some people’s brains are not that strong or weren’t strong enough not to start drinking. They’re the same people whose brains aren’t strong enough not to be religious, apparently.”

If you want to place a cloud over religion because of the bad examples like Jim Jones, David Koresh, et al. go right ahead, that don’t make it so anymore than Hadithah proves all US servicemen are child rapist and killers.
Except for the fact that statistics don’t work that way and you can’t possibly be stupid enough not to understand that national polling doesn’t take in account whether you’re famous or not.

Let me explain it in terms a five year old would understand, because you clearly can’t be arsed to read the fucking study so I’ll explain it myself in very easy terms:

The study shows that the more a nation is religious (aka the higher the percentage of religious people) the more higher the number of homicides, STD infections, teen pregnancies, and abortions is in that nation. You will notice that I didn’t say “famous people” or “specific cases”. This is a statistical study, it has nothing to do with individual cases, it studies a trend.

So yes, I will place a cloud over religion. But i will do it because studies show it’s actually detrimental for society at large, I don’t give a fuck about the single cases, hypocrites are a homogeneous category.

Thammuz's avatar

Ugh, I left a “more higher” in the post… That’ll teach me to edit the question too may times.

Fyrius's avatar

If you guys don’t mind, I’m going to abandon the thread again now. If you want to address anything I said, kindly notify me by PM me and I’ll return.

I’ll leave the task of saying what should be said to my fellow godless heathen jellies, including my good and reliably dedicated friend @Thammuz here.

klutzaroo's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central The word is “moot.” Its a “moot” point, not “mute” which has an entirely different meaning. “Moot.” Even when you think so and it in fact isn’t. The usage and definition of “diction” might help too.

klutzaroo's avatar

Its hard to fathom why I’m shocked at some of the ignorance of religions and religious intolerance that I’m seeing in response to this question considering that I am from the South and have dealt with ignorance and intolerance and so on all my life (try being raised Catholic amongst all the Bible-banging (and abusing) Baptists). But for some reason, I am. I suppose with all the well-worded explanations of religion and religious (and non-religious/moral) thought on here that I thought that people would perhaps absorb information from other people to inform their own opinions or at least consider the thoughts and ideas of others rather than trying to have people listen to their contributions without bothering to listen to those of others. Perhaps more of that needs to happen. But then if that kind of thing happened (here and everywhere else), there probably wouldn’t be any problems with religion. Perhaps its too much to ask, especially of people who think that religion is the answer, specifically the teachings of theirs in particular.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Thammuz I said that they actually probably don’t, but even if they did this changes no-fucking-thing about my point of you being full of shit when claiming that religious people are less likely to be subject of social ills. POINT FOR ME! Got an f-bomb to rise up (we know they are losing their cool and the debate because they have to sink to cussing). What you fail to remember or maybe can’t grasp is there is a difference between people in religion and those who practice to be religious. Since you don’t practice any religion you really don’t know the mind set of truly devoted people. Maybe, just maybe, they work at avoiding those types of things with much more earnest. The ability to slip into that is the same with all people, just some don’t because they try harder and make a major effort not to.

¬*Except for the fact that statistics don’t work that way and you can’t possibly be stupid enough not to understand that national polling doesn’t take in account whether you’re famous or not.* Statistics have the inherent flaw that they can’t account for everyone just the majority of a given group sampled. If I wanted to discredit baked goods I could rent out a gymnasium and put tables on one end with toys and coloring books and let in 50 6 to 8yr olds. After they get good and hungry have workers set up table on the opposite end of the gym and heap on a bunch of donuts, brownies, cup cakes, etc and at the same time have workers bring out brand muffins and grilled cheese sandwiches on the side of the children. Then when any of the children try to cross the gym to get the baked goods have older kids pelt them with paint ball guns and water cannons. Then when about 80% or so figure it is saver to eat the grilled cheese and avoid the baked goods write the report that 80% of 6–8yr olds prefer grilled cheese to cup cakes and brownies. The people reading the study won’t have a clue what motivation was supplied to get the kids to choose the grilled cheese over brownies. Of course that is an exaggerated example but goes to show you how mere numbers are not the all in all you may think it is. But you want to go down to a level of a 5 year old, you can go back to the education level you stopped at but I have college under me so I will just stay up here.

You will notice that I didn’t say “famous people” or “specific cases”. This is a statistical study, it has nothing to do with individual cases, it studies a trend But again just because people filled out a questionnaire stating they are of a religious faith or preference don’t make them an active or devoted participant. Many people who hardly step in a church will say they are Baptist, Protestant, Lutheran, etc.

So yes, I will place a cloud over religion. But i will do it because studies show it’s actually detrimental for society at large, I don’t give a fuck about the single cases, hypocrites are a homogeneous category. <Ding ding> Another point for me, second f-bomb of the day. And I could find more studies to say different. The logic (as gonzo as it is) that you are trying to use is that if we get rid of all the churches and all the religion we can give pink slips to all or most law enforcement and shrinks because crime and suicides would go down because religion is at the root of it.

And before you go trying to jump back in front of the car so you can say “Help me, help me, those zealots are attacking me!” I don’t believe that religion in itself keeps violence and crime in check, it is the spirit of the people who practice it, their faith keeps them in check. What keeps society from descending into anarchy is not religion but the military and law enforcement who have prisons and guns to enforce the peace.

@JLeslie Please remind me, are you in the bible belt? I don’t ask that to judge you, or make assumptions, I ask because living here in the bible[sic] belt is so different than other parts of the country. I kind of understand why people who grew up and live here feel as you do. No I am not from there and have never lived there. I have been born and raised in California. I frankly do not know exactly how what they expect of religion in the Bible Belt. I am sure we have similarities but I can bet they and I have totally different views in things of the Gospel.

Thammuz's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Ok, first things first: I cuss all the time, IRL and not, it just so happens that in this case it prevents from biting your head off through TCP/IP, so cut the fucking “point for me” shit. Fells like I’m debating with a grader school teacher FFS.

What you fail to remember or maybe can’t grasp is there is a difference between people in religion and those who practice to be religious.
And what you obviously can’t grasp is that you’ve just made a no true scotsman fallacy of the highest order. Congratulations you just proved you have no leg to stand on, and you didn’t even need to cuss to prove it.

Maybe, just maybe, they work at avoiding those types of things with much more earnest.
Statistics say otherwise. And i’ll tell you why even conceding your previous point (which i don’t concede because it’s bullshit and a fallacy but, for the sake of destrying your argument even further, i will indulge it momentarily) i’m still right.

Wouldn’t you agree that a “true” believe would declare him/herself as such if presented with a questionnaire asking that? I assume you would.

Then, being “true” believers a subcategory of those who claim to be believers, the more people claim they are believers, the more “true” believers there are in that country.

This because, given a probability P of an element of a group also being part of a smaller group contained within it, there will be, on average, 1/P of the total of the group in the smaller group. The higher the total the higher total*(1/P) will be. You said you went to college, let’s see if you can digest this.

Statistics have the inherent flaw that they can’t account for everyone just the majority of a given group sampled.
That’s the motherfucking point. Statistics don’t deal with individual cases, it’s their job to deal with the bigger picture.

Of course that is an exaggerated example but goes to show you how mere numbers are not the all in all you may think it is.
No that’s not exaggerated, that’s retarded, but that’s beyond the point
You have still not read the article, I see. NONE of the data was picked by those who authored the study. They used census data, and data provided from sources that could gather it, like governments and health organizations, which base themselves on the events they register and national polling. There is no “the study was manipulated/unfair” that can save you. Especially when the stude is hosted by a fucking religious foundation.

As you should know, since you say you went to college, statistics works by approximating the data to account for human error, so if X% of a nation says they’re believers, statisticians automatically assume it’s not exactly X%, because some people will tell you differently from what they actually think, the surveyor might have interviewed the same guy twice, they could’ve counted the same sheet twice and so forth. These errors can’t skew the results significantly, though, so if a significant correlation is extablished, even if the result is not exact is still very close to right on the mark.

But you want to go down to a level of a 5 year old, you can go back to the education level you stopped at but I have college under me so I will just stay up here.
Ad hominem, good, i could get your reply modded but having you show how little you have to back your arguments up is much more satisfying. Mods, please don’t mod his reply because of this ad hominem attack, i want it where everyone can see it

But again just because people filled out a questionnaire stating they are of a religious faith or preference don’t make them an active or devoted participant.
Already proved this one has nothing to do with the point, moving on.

And I could find more studies to say different.
Do it then. Find me peer reviewed studies that look for this correlation and find it any different, possibly not coming from patriot university. I will be persuaded by studies that stand up to peer review.

The logic that you are trying to use is that if we get rid of all the churches and all the religion we can give pink slips to all or most law enforcement and shrinks because crime and suicides would go down because religion is at the root of it.
No, that’s not the logic i’m trying to use. The data points to it. Don’t believe it? Look up the murder statistics for european countries like France, the Netherlands, Sweden or Norway (notoriously not very religious countries) and compare them to those of the US. Easy. And that’s what the study does, by the way, only recieving the statistics from the actual offices instead of google. And besides, i never said it would completely eliminate these issues, only that they would drop significantly, which is precisely what you can already see in european countries like the ones i mentioned before.

If you want a good place to start try nationmaster.

And before you go trying to jump back in front of the car so you can say “Help me, help me, those zealots are attacking me!”
Screaming little girl voice optional i assume.

I don’t believe that religion in itself keeps violence and crime in check, it is the spirit of the people who practice it, their faith keeps them in check.
Again, apparently not. But, if you want to keep ignoring the data, be my guest. Just don’t go around saying you’re right because you’re demonstrably wrong.

AdamF's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Just know this, if you ever claim or even imply, here or elsewhere that atheists are more prone to theft, violence, etc. than Christians are, you’re propagating a bigoted lie, and you’re no better than any other bigot that has propagated similar slander for centuries against other people for issues of race or religion.

Response moderated (Personal Attack)
RareDenver's avatar

Best thread ever

JLeslie's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central I just asked where you live because here in the south there are so many people who think like you, I understand why it seems right to them. So many people around me have so little contact with atheists and people who are not religious, that they have an idea in their head of what those people must be like. Of course there are places in the bible belt, individual communities that are less religious than others, and also there are communitites all over the country that have a very tight religious community.

My point is, if your surroundings are people who are religious and find peace, happiness, stregnth in your faith, and there are peope around you who are wayward and don’t go to church or see religion as a positive force, then I understand why you think what you do.

But, as @klutzaroo points out, it surprises me that people during these discusions don’t see that there are many many people who are atheists, who don’t utilize religion who live fufilled lives. I understand religion works for you, I have no problem with that, what I don’t get is why religious people have a problem with those who are doing just fine without religion. We are good neighbors, not trying to interfere with your life, you can believe whatever you want. I am using yiu in the general sense, not accusing your specifically. I just thought maybe you could explain to me why? Why are so many reigious people reluctant to accept many people are just fine without God.

gorillapaws's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central fact from fiction, truth from diction. You are making fallacies right and left. Your bakesale “analogy” only demonstrates that it’s possible to rig some studies if they have flawed methodologies. Are you saying there is a particular flaw in the methodology in question (such as people blasting the subjects with paintball guns and water cannons)? If there is, please enlighten us what this methodological error is.

Unlike the bible, we have the ability to question the validity of studies and improve on them over time so they become more accurate and useful. It’s not at all the same as taking it on faith as you assert. So if you have a valid intellectual criticism of that particular study’s methodology, please share it, otherwise, kindly leave the thinking to those of us who are qualified to do so in a manner that’s not vapid and full of mental diarrhea.

Response moderated (Personal Attack)
cazzie's avatar

I wish I had the time to write like that on the internet

JLeslie's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Another question based on my experience, are you black/African American? This would play straight into a generalization of mine, admitedly, that blacks statistically tend to be more religious. And, the black community, unfortunately, has some high stats for drug abuse, jail time, and high school drop outs. I have many black friends who don’t fit into this stereotype at all, but I am just talking stats. My black friends grew up in communities that were very diverse or primarily white. Actually, most of my black friends are Catholic, which would be a big difference too, from the Black people around me where I live now. It seems to me the predominently black communties don’t have much chance to interact with the type of athiest we speak of on this thread. In fact, pretty much all of my friends here in the south would assume, and I would guess do assume I am a theist. So they don’t even realize the athiests around them.

The oddest thing to me about moving to the midsouth was realizing that most of the Democrats here are socially conservative, and fiscally liberal. I really had never known people with that combination before, and those people here are pretty much all black, and I blame religion. In fact when gay marriage was overturned in Cali during the presidential election, the blame went to getting out the black vote in California for Obama, because they likely voted against gay marriage while at the ballot box.

So, I say all of this again, only to say that possibly you are speaking from your experience, but there is a big wide world out there that you are unfamiliar with I think.

AdamF's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central I hereby solemnly swear that if I ever compare Christian beliefs to belief in the easter bunny or unicorns, I will promptly apologize to any Easter Bunnyists or Unicornologists out there. I imagine they’d be quite offended to have their beliefs equated with the sadistic hellfire doctrines you so lovingly embrace.

In the meantime, thanks for being such an excellent poster child for why the separation of church and state is such a damn good idea.

JLeslie's avatar

@AdamF Ironically I have many many Christian and Catholic friends who talk about Mormons believing in crazy shit like easter bunnies. Like one blind faith is different from another. That I will never get. Seems so hypocritical to me.

AdamF's avatar

I’m highly impressed they don’t bluescreen :)

JLeslie's avatar

@AdamF What does that mean?

blueiiznh's avatar

@AdamF but what does a BSOD have to do with this question?

RareDenver's avatar

@blueiiznh I was just wondering the same thing

AdamF's avatar

Okay,.....read JLeslie’s comment, and then read mine. All Im saying is that Im highly surprised something in their heads doesn’t do the equivalent of a “bluescreen” when faced with such cognitive dissonance.

RareDenver's avatar

@AdamF I read ya now

blueiiznh's avatar

@AdamF thanks for clarifying

AdamF's avatar

No worries…sorry for being so abstruse…

cazzie's avatar

‘abstuse’ ? I love it…. it’s a new word now. A mix of Abstract and Obtuse.

Response moderated
augustlan's avatar

[mod says] Ok, people, flame off. Enough of the insults, there is no need to make this personal.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@JLeslie This would play straight into a generalization of mine, admittedly(sic), that blacks statistically tend to be more religious. And, the black community, unfortunately, has some high stats for drug abuse, jail time, and high school drop outs. In many ways I would say looking on the surface you are right. What is seen by most through the media tends to point to just that. But I say it is plausible that the Black community is a mini microcosm of what the author of that famous paper alluded to (but seem not to focus on) freedom of choice coupled with the desire of wealth is more to do with crime and violence, lost opportunities etc than just religion. People in the Back community be they religious or not have the choice to band together and all work for the common good or be everyman for himself. If you have 30% gangs and 45% religious people and 25% neutral do you think the neighborhood will not be affected by the gangs?

But, as @klutzaroo points out, it surprises me that people during these discussions[sic] don’t see that there are many many people who are atheists, who don’t utilize religion who live fulfilled[sic] lives. I am not. Everyone fills there life with something and sometimes those are negative things. You can fill your life with golf, gardening, cooking, sailing, flying, gambling, etc, I know that, even those who use religion double life with having the joy of reading, cooking and the likes.

I understand religion works for you, I have no problem with that, what I don’t get is why religious people have a problem with those who are doing just fine without religion. That maybe some religious people but that is not ALL OF US certainly not me. I have no hatred or animosity to you or any of the disrespectful members you have in your ranks. I will tell you what the Bible say about belief and faith and then I will let you digest it and do with it as you wish. I did my job, I did share it with you; just like a cup cake, a hammer or a phone, you can accept it or reject it, I can’t put it in your hand just hold it out for you to take if you want. If I have any qualms with Atheist it is those disrespectful that to diminish my faith to that which equals some believe in the Easter Bunny, Santa Clause, etc.

We are good neighbors, not trying to interfere with your life, you can believe whatever you want. I am using yiu[sic] in the general sense, not accusing your specifically. I just thought maybe you could explain to me why? Why are so many reigious[sic] people reluctant to accept many people are just fine without God. I for one will say you and other people who do believe there is a God but chose not to follow him are good friend, coworkers, and neighbors. I am not uppity enough to say the only way you can be a good neighbor or citizen is if you believe in God. Frankly debating with you on issues is a joy you have some sense and honor—unlike some—. I can’t speak for all Christians or religious people but I would gander those who feel they if someone can feel complete with out God that maybe God is not all powerful and causes them to question if they are taking the right path. They can only believe they are in a cushy position is if they see others who are without God stuck in the rocky places and among the thorns. How you live your life I am not going to try to dictate, condemn or direct it. I certainly are not going to convince you to switch sides, anyone I ever seen switch one way or the other did so because they wanted to. I don’t have to believe in what you believe. I have to work out my own salvation, not yours. Some people I guess take that “brother’s keeper” stuff a bit too far or think they know in themselves who is saved and who is not, I know only God knows who is going where and why; and that is what I believe. Again, if I believed wrong I will never know it but all I meet here will have benefitted from me believing, Should I be right, and I believe I am I don’t want to be having an interesting talk with my creator why I thought He was equal to the Easter Bunny. Hopefully that gives you at least on perspective of one Christian; and so long as you are the respectful and honorable person you are you can ask of me anything and I will give you my most honest answer.

Sorry I could not get back to you earlier, collateral damage of my vigorous defense not because I was ignoring you.

klutzaroo's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central “I did my job, I did share it with you” Yet why do you share again and again something that people have already experienced and rejected for themselves? You sit there and say that you’re not one of those people who keeps pushing religion on others while at the same time you’re sitting there doing it. Why do you insist on shoving your religion, the teachings that you’ve embraced, down other peoples’ throats? Why do you insist that they’re incapable of grasping the “points” you make when they disagree with them? How is any of this helpful, how is any of it being “Christian” like you no doubt believe you are, even if your behavior doesn’t reflect it? Rather than focusing on making everyone appreciate what you have to say, perhaps you should focus on learning from others and actually carrying on a conversation without puling out points to refute as best as you’re able in your continuing condemnation and argument for argument’s sake. You’re so convinced you’re right that you can’t see past your own nose. Open your mind, open your eyes, look around. Listen. Learn. People might take you half as seriously as you take yourself if your opinion is actually informed.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@klutzaroo First off, I was asked a question and I tried to answer that person’s question. I did not solicit my response and tried to shove it down their throat nor beat them over the head with the Bible. I do look around a observe. Maybe people should quit trying to run in front of the car the car then scream someone is trying to drive over them.

Yes, I believe I am right and so does every other person Atheist or not or you would have not made the comments you made. If you did not believe in what you do and others did not believe what they do that there is no God or there is would we even be having this discussion?

everephebe's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central The question of, “Should we teach the bible in all schools and work places?” makes the car pretty large and unavoidable for anyone at work or school… So it’s not so much a matter of people running in front of this metaphorical car of yours. And if the bible was taught at both work and school that would be shoving it down throats and beating them over the head with it, no?

Now on to the matter of belief vs non-belief. @Hypocrisy_Central do you believe in Zeus or Thor or Unicorns? No, right? Well that doesn’t mean you believe in their non-existence, it just means you have no belief in them. No belief / non-belief ≠ belief. For atheists it isn’t a matter of belief, belief is for theists. Atheists are by nature, not people of faith.

I’m sure you can agree that the bible isn’t for everyone, especially not for people who don’t want anything to do with the book. And if we applied this opt-out clause idea to other books being taught in school or at work, it would be… rather silly. Math 101, opt-out for example. Or Inter-Office Sexual Harassment Policy Memo Opt-Out. People can read whatever books they want at home. But if I demand you read a book or opt-out, isn’t that invasive? Especially if it’s a book you might not care for, like the Kama Sutra, She Comes First, Manifest der Kommunistischen Partei, or The Riot Act?

The OP thinks the bible is beneficial, so do you and many others. But the question really is, should it be forced on everyone? And that answer is conclusively, no, from an objective point of view. Because I, and many others would object to that.

I really enjoyed The Hobbit, The Prophet, The Little Prince, and Calvin and Hobbes but I don’t think it should be mandatory reading for everyone who works or goes to school. Let people read what they want on their own time. Morality can be taught in far more effective ways then, “You go to hell unless, you make good with our Invisible all-power being.” If the Bible is so great, people will pick it up on their own time. Why worry, it’s sales aren’t hurting any are they? Just over two billion people are Christian, but that still makes you guys a minority, so forcing everyone else to listen you is extremely selfish… Which wouldn’t be very Christian, would it?

On a personal note, I went to two schools where the book was mandatory reading, and they were certainly the least enjoyable educational experiences of my life, and this was while I was still religious. The moral bankruptcy of those two schools left a lasting impression, and this bankruptcy was solely due to their faith in “the book.” If they had other, real moral guidelines they could have been “saved.”

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@everephebe I’m sure you can agree that the bible isn’t for everyone, especially not for people who don’t want anything to do with the book. And if we applied this opt-out clause idea to other books being taught in school or at work, it would be… rather silly. Math 101, opt-out for example. Yes I agree the Bible is not for everyone not because I feel they don’t deserve it but as you say, it do not fit their personality, just like I would steer some people away from the military or other from medicine. Unlike the Bible math is something near everyone needs because it has nothing to do with what you believe, so opting out on something like that would be ridiculous, like trying to opt out on speech or reading; just can’t be done.

The OP thinks the bible is beneficial, so do you and many others. But the question really is, should it be forced on everyone? Absolutely not! Now I know there are many Christians who would think much different than that because as “their brother’s keeper” they feel they have to rescue the non-believer from themselves. I run afoul with those Christians also because though I believe the Bible and belief in God is beneficial and needed I won’t hammer anyone over the head with it. As you say, I can’t force it down your throat, I cannot get you to accept Jesus as your Lord and savior if you don’t want to. I can’t do that anymore than I can make you love Lamborghinis (which I think is the best cars ever made) if you loved Corvettes.

Morality can be taught in far more effective ways then, “You go to hell unless, you make good with our Invisible all-power being.” I say morality is in religion but you can’t make religion of morality.

If the Bible is so great, people will pick it up on their own time. Why worry, it’s sales aren’t hurting any are they? Just over two billion people are Christian, but that still makes you guys a minority, so forcing everyone else to listen you is extremely selfish… Which wouldn’t be very Christian, would it? I never worry about sales of the Bible, if it don’t make the New York best seller, big deal, God don’t need the money. Even if Christians are not the majority religion on the planet and some are too aggressive to try to equate all of us as being no smarter than 6 year olds believing in fairy tales is plain Boorish, disrespectful and more childish.

If any Christian tried to beat you over the head with the Bible (figuratively not actually) I have to apologize for them because maybe they misunderstood the Bible. The Word is a gift not a sentence and God gave us free will to chose or not. If you are on a road trip and you ask directions just because someone gives you directions you are still free not to use them, right?

everephebe's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central “The Word is a gift not a sentence and God gave us free will to chose or not. If you are on a road trip and you ask directions just because someone gives you directions you are still free not to use them, right?”

But what if we didn’t stop for directions in the first place, because we had gps? Then we are really free not to listen if we don’t want to. That would bypass a few problems wouldn’t it? That’s why schools and workplaces should be devoid of religious pressures/preferences/problems.

Lamboghinis are nice. I’m more of a Norton/Vincent/Triumph person, though.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@everephebe But what if we didn’t stop for directions in the first place, because we had gps? Logic says if you had gps and it worked, you trusted it, and knew it was current then you would not have asked. People who don’t care about God, believe they can do just find without him ever ask me anything about it and we talk about the Giants, how expensive BART is, etc. I don’t say “well you need direction anyhow, here let me break out my Sward to the book of John”. Not my style and won’t ever be. If you bring it up I will tell you but if you don’t…..“Did you see that game Timmy pitched against the Angels last night?”

klutzaroo's avatar

“Unlike the Bible math is something near everyone needs”

JLeslie's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Yes, off course the gangs will have an effect. I actually think my statement regarding the black community was unclear. I did no mean that the religious people are the ones who cause the negative statistics. What I wanted to say was that if let’s say the gangs are the not religious people, and the people really trying to make a positive difference are the religious people, then growing up in said community gives an overwhelming idea that religion is good and necessary for good, and lack of religion leads to bad behavior. My point is outside of those communities it is very different, but if a person does not get to experience life in the other communities they are not aware. Maybe even religion is one of the factors in these communities that keeps people on the straight and narrow, but it is not the case all over the US or world.

Approximately 40% of the Jews in Israel consider themselves secular Jews, I don’t think they are all boozing it up, in fact if I had to guess I bet Jews have less alcoholism than the average world wide, but I don’t know it for a fact. The 40% stat for Jews in America is similar. I don’t think of Jewish people as running with gangs all too often.

cazzie's avatar

@JLeslie I love how this thread has gone here. There are some VERY famous mobsters that were Jewish. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_American_mobsters

JLeslie's avatar

I didn’t bother clicking on the link.

Who said there aren’t bad Jews? Look at Madoff. One of the most recent famous thieves in America. A completely horrible unscrupulous man.

ragingloli's avatar

picking madoff over natanyahoo?

JLeslie's avatar

I don’t even get why this thread woke up just to tell me there are Jewish mobsters? Throughout the thread I defend both the religious and the nonreligious. I point out people come from their own perspectives.

What does Jewish mobsters have to do with anything? We were talking about stereotypes and perceived averages when it came to gangs towards the end. I said if gangs are perceived to be full of nonreligious people the religious people in the community might associate religion with goodness and atheism with being bad.

So?

ragingloli's avatar

I thought that all mobsters are either italian or police

JLeslie's avatar

Are all the police Irish?

ragingloli's avatar

texan, more like.

JLeslie's avatar

Makes me think of the old joke:

In Heaven…
The mechanics are German
The chefs are French
The police are British
The lovers are Italian
And everything is organised by the Swiss.

In Hell…
The mechanics are French
The police are German
The chefs are British
The lovers are Swiss
And everything is organised by the Italians.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^ I thought if in hell it were that way, the mechanics would be Cuban, the lovers would just be douche bags from all over, the chefs would be Black men serving chitterlings, and everything would be ran by the Chinese.

ragingloli's avatar

And update would be that in Hell the police are now american

JLeslie's avatar

Yeah. Lol. The joke is told substituting different countries. It evolves over time.

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