Is yesterday’s hazing today’s assault?

It was all in good fun, no malice intended.

Read @cruisercruiser’s anguished question about his 15-year old son. (And read the answers from adult flutherers who were bullied, terrorized, tormented or tortured in HS.) Link

Calling it hazing rather than a cruel and humiliating act on a (hapless is a mild way of putting it) 14-year old doesn’t change the magnitude of the behavior. I wonder how the kid (who was, I am sure, terrified of complaining) thinks about that event now that he is an adult?

If it were my kid or if I were a teacher or staff member, I would find rolling a naked male freshman naked into the girl’s locker room worthy of zero tolerance.

Is there any young teen-ager who would enjoy that or find some sort of redeeming quality to the behavior of the older students?

And lighting one’s buttocks up with the rat tale? You can’t be serious. Imagine your son enduring that, particularly if perpetrated by 6 older boys.

This question is rhetorical, I have to assume.

I definitely agree with Gail. I think it’s pretty foolhardy to assume that any and all freshman, of various temperments, will all view this as funny or lightharded. Treat a sensitive kid this way and maybe he won’t admit it for fear of further ridicule, but it will hurt. A lot. I’ve seen kids that age get extremely upset over much less that this.

It was yesterday’s assault too.

Hazing has been illegal for a long time.

Hazing is, and has always been outrageous. Thank goodness there did not seem to be much of it in my high school. At least not that I knew about. Maybe the boys were doing that horrible shit and I was unaware. It seems boys and men are more likely to participate in such behavior. I find it barbaric, uncivilized, unkind, and unconscionable.

@Hypocrisy_Central Do you think most men look back at the hazing they participated in, that they committed, do they just blow it off as a right of passage, or actually have some remorse about it?

Hazing can be funny. Like in the movie Waiting. Some people get offended too easily.

@fizzbanger: This is not a question of being offended; there is clear correlation between hazing and misery (often long-term and occasionally fatal) to the victim. Movies do not reflect real-life. And I suspect that “Wasiting” is not high on the list for any Oscar.

Do you feel that your remarks were said without thought or too gilbly. Do you have children?

@gailcalled yeesh, sorry, what I was trying to get at is that not all hazing is done purely for the sake of malice. I think people sometimes take small things and blow them out of proportion, looking for an excuse to sue someone.

I’m not saying that this is always the case or trying to undermine instances where people do get hurt.

What is “gilbly”?

Hazing is done to terrorize or humiliate the victim. There is no other reason, and it is despicable.

@YARNLADY not necessarily. Here’s one example: My friend’s dad was a Navy submariner. Some guys on the sub cut this other guy’s belt slightly tighter every day to make him think that he was gaining weight (he needed to lose weight).

Not that school is the same thing as the military, but yeah… that seems like a type of hazing to me.

@gailcalled*This question is rhetorical, I have to assume.* No, it isn’t. Thinking back, some of the stuff and the pranks we pulled in high school people of today could not stomach because they totally take it out of context. Like watching a boxing or mixed martial arts match and trying to equal that to a street brawl. We did not hold any one captive, prevent their escape, or broke the skin or left scars. If that was are intent, we all had belts in our pants, if was all about torture and causing misery we would have used our belts. The freshman who was the object of the hazing, didn’t get hazed long-term. It wasn’t a systemic daily horror they had to endure. It may have happened no more than three time the whole year, five tops. Usually once a freshman got to the second semester and his noob status wore stale, he was no longer bothered, or pranked on unless they were his friends. It was a ”welcome to high school” thing like if you were in the Navy your 1st time over the equator you had to dress in drag. You didn’t have to keep doing it every other time you passed over, but it was like your initiation to the brotherhood.

The stuff I read about and see on the news that young man and women are kicked out of high school for, is taking an inflatable dingy and trying to make a container freight ship out of it. Some of the stuff students did as pranks in my school would make many cringe, I guess. Still, we went to class without guards roaming the campus or having to walk through metal detectors.

@marinelife It was yesterday’s assault too. By a law textbook, maybe it was. Any student insisting it was would surely bring one a year’s worth of grief behind some hazing that fist 5 weeks; and not every day at that.

@JLeslie @Hypocrisy_Central Do you think most men look back at the hazing they participated in, that they committed, do they just blow it off as a right of passage, or actually have some remorse about it? It was not like we (the upperclassmen) roamed the halls daily hunting underclassmen. The amount of actual hazing you could count on one hand. However, there was this one freshmen, (who became our good friend we would have gone to war with because he took it), that he hit with a shave cream bomb and he had to call his dad for another shirt. He knew the drill, he was a freshman, and as a freshman he would be the target time to time of some pranks or a rat tail ambush coming from the shower. He took it, he didn’t give any of us up, we was sure he would crack under his dad’s pressure, but he held fast. Because of that, he earned our unflappable respect. He was under our protection, so to speak, from any other hazing, less we gave him a small friendly taste time to time.

I guess when you are in high school it is kind of tribal, the jocks stick with jocks, the stoners stick with stoners, etc. Everyone, whether they were athletically inclined or not went out for the freshman football team, because that is what you did. No one, has ever went out to target a freshman with the ideal or intent to punish, harm, or torture any of them. We didn’t subject them to any wooden paddles, make them eat disgusting things, wear a diaper to school, or anything like that. We would have seen such stuff as over the line. We never stuffed a freshman’s in a toilet either. Aside of that one time, I don’t remember saying to the group, ”We went too far with that one”. We didn’t trash their lockers, destroy their property or any such thing as that.

Where do we go next, giving jail time for tee peeing a house, because you want to call it malicious vandalism?

@fizzbanger Hazing can be funny. Like in the movie Waiting. Some people get offended too easily. No truer words said. I guess we can have all students walk the halls with their hands in their pocket, that will keep them out of trouble. Why have some hazing when having young people sexing it up in the band equipment room or the janitor’s closet is much better.

@YARNLADY Hazing is done to terrorize or humiliate the victim. There is no other reason, and it is despicable. Wrong. Sometimes it might be used to get a laugh at the hazie’s expense, but never to terrorize. That is the mark of a bully targeting someone for something personal.

@Hypocrisy_Central It does not matter if your intent is not to terrorize, it still might be terrorizing, humiliating, and upsetting to the person being hazed. Especially in high school kids are very worried about fitting in. Also, some people do not like practical jokes, I am one of them. They don’t think it is funny at all to be teased, or at the butt of a joke.

Then there is hazing like what is seen in universities for fraternities. I had a friend pledgng a frat and the guys were practically forcing him, definitely pressuring him to drink more. He kept telling them he was already really fucked up, very high, he did not want to drink more than he already had trying to satisiy them. They didn’t care, they thought it was funny. Drink drink drink. People die that way.

The military also has some bad hazing stories where people were injured or died.

@Hypocrisy_Central: The high school I went to and the kids who were there bear no resemblance to your stereotypical description.

The kids in the high school where I was involved for 14 years were equally independent. There was no such thing as “that was what you did.”

I wouldn’t be happy if someone chose to pee on the side of my house, if that is what you mean by “peeing a house.”

Why do you continue to ask questions where you are only interested in one answer, and that one apparently filled with clichés? I

Kind of. Some hazing can be straight up cruel, sure, but some of it is done in the name of stupid fun. I was hazed my first year in the drama department, and likewise, I expect to be hazing a few freshmen my senior year. So long as someone knows it’s just for kicks, and no one is seriously hurt or distressed, I think hazing can just be another way to pal around with your upperclassmen.

I think there is probably a difference between hazing and playing practical jokes. While I, personally, have never been amused by practical jokes, many people do find them funny.

Hazing is bullshit. I’ve never understood how people can derive pleasure from fucking with someone.

I mean, I got kicked in the balls for my initiation hazing…we had a good laugh about it afterwards, me included.

Kids and students are much more sensitive now than 30, 40 , 50 years ago. Any infringement on their “rights” is often a cause for legal action.

I remember when I was in junior high, and kids would get their heads smothered in Nair (hair removal cream for women), or get their behinds paddled like crazy. Kids didn’t seem to complain back then. They called it “froshing”, and it was accepted more or less.

Today, where I live, it’s prohibited. A fraternity got shut down because a kid was hazed last fall. Now the perpetrators are facing expulsion as well.

Kids are more vocal and sensitive these days. Sometimes that can be good, but sometimes it can be bad also. Overall, however, I think it’s a good thing that they are getting rid of hazing and froshing in schools and colleges.

I would bet that no one is more sensitive today than in years past. Hazing, bullying, practical jokes…call it what you like…were always humiliating and demeaning to the victim. It was simply more difficult or frightening to complain, get help or find relief.

@MRSHINYSHOES; Can you imagine a group of kids ganging up on either of your daughters when they are older and rubbing Nair in their hair? It is unthinkable to pass that off as “We were only joking.”

@gailcalled I’ll admit, some hazing can be straight-up cruel, but most of it, or at least what I’ve witnessed, was all done in good fun. What I’ve seen was always done in the same way that an older sibling might tease a younger one, and it was never done to humiliate somebody.

@gailcalled I didn’t say that was acceptable, nor did I say that was okay. I just said in those days, kids didn’t make a big thing out of it. Among THEMSELVES, they more or less accepted it and didn’t complain out of fear of being called sissies or tattlers.

Of course it’s terrible. But I stand by my point that kids these days are more sensitive than ever. A teacher, for example, can’t even put his hand on a student these days and give him/her a commending pat on the back without having a lawsuit against him for indecent touching. Sheesh.

_-Among THEMSELVES, they more or less accepted it and didn’t complain out of fear of being called sissies or tattlers.__

My point, exactly.

@JLeslie @Hypocrisy_Central It does not matter if your intent is not to terrorize, it still might be terrorizing, humiliating, and upsetting to the person being hazed. Is part of the hazing to embarrass, it would not be hazing if it wasn’t. I don’t know if the gals in my high school had their form of feminine hazing but the guys certainly did. If you confuse it with a daily assault on the dignity of some poor freshman, it wasn’t.

Then there is hazing like what is seen in universities for fraternities. I had a friend pledging[sic] a frat and the guys were practically forcing him, definitely pressuring him to drink more. He kept telling them he was already really fucked up, very high, he did not want to drink more than he already had trying to satisiy[sic] them. We would have never done it that way, and of anyone had tried, we (the upperclassmen) would have checked them. And we never hazed the opposite sex, we did not go around grabbing boobs, lifting skits, planting wet ones on unsuspecting young women, etc. That would have never flew. It was not like we corralled a freshmen and not let him out until we had our fill of whacking him with the towel. If a guy out of range after 6–10 ft, he was left alone to go get dressed. Some even used their towels to try to get in a lick on an upperclassmen, which was considered like getting a coo.

The military also has some bad hazing stories where people were injured or died. We were not stupid. We would have never told any underclassman he had to climb the flag pole and touch the belly edge of the flag, or lay on the dbl yellow line in traffic like that stupid stuff you see in the movies. We knew what would harm someone other than a one in a million, freak accident. There was more chance of getting injured on the basketball team.

@gailcalled I wouldn’t be happy if someone chose to pee on the side of my house, if that is what you mean by “peeing a house.” Tee peeing aka toilet papering someone’s house.

@MRSHINYSHOES @gailcalled I didn’t say that was acceptable, nor did I say that was okay. I just said in those days, kids didn’t make a big thing out of it. It is like toilet papering a house, it didn’t do in real harm to it. It wasn’t that fun for the home owner who had clean it up, but remaking a bed at camp because some cabin mates short-sheeted you wasn’t either. When I went to camp, where the ”regulars” would punk us ”one-timers”, or noobs.

Makes you wonder if that is why there are so many stabbings and shootings in school, because some young people get looked at cross-eyed, and they take offence to the point of disrespect.

@Hypocrisy_Central Here is one frat story of course there are many if I bother to look. I don’t care that he was underage, which is part og this particular story, I only care that they think it is funny to purposely get so drunk they puke and seem clueless it can kill someone.

Oh, what the hell, student dies in hazing from water binging.

Look, it’s really easy to be politically correct and Google up a few tragedies. But not all hazing is bad, and it is not simply random torture or violence. For some groups, it brings people together through bonding experiences.

Whipping someone in the ass with a towel is more like bullying, but I would not consider that assault! Or lump it into the same category as a wannabe frat boy drinking himself to death. A college-aged kid should know better than to drink that much… and could very well have said “no” and walked away. Anyone willing to harm themselves to that extent to join a group probably needs some help.

This discussion wound up being pretty cliché.

@fizzbanger I will never understand people wanting to hurt or embarrass someone else, unless they hate them. And, when I say hurt, even minor hurt, I am not talking death. What does pledges making a fool of themselves have to do with being friends with them? Well, I guess if the frat requires the pledges be party drunk animals, then hey yeah, have them pledge by getting trashed. Make sure they will fit in when the drunken parties are full swing.

You are right that it is easy to pull out a few horrible examples. But, none of it makes sense to me. I don’t understanding testing or harrassing people who are supposed to be your colleagues and friends.

I think it must have something to do with male socialization, because I don’t think any of the women on the thread like the idea, I could be wrong, and the majority of the men are defending it, with a couple exceptions.

I have seen workplaces where the low man on the totem pole is treated like shit, I think it is awful. Thank goodness that was very uncommon in the various places I have worked. I think the whole attitude of the new guy gets treated like crap is a bad way to be young and old.

But, I guess people like you just see me as stodgy with no sense of humor.

Maybe you can explain to me the positives of hazing? Why is it a good thing to do? Or anyone on the Q. Why is it worth risking hurting someones feelings?

@JLeslie Some examples of positive initiation rites that typically involve hazing-type-activites that I can think of on top of my head:

Karate tests.
Navy chief induction.
BUDs training (actually, lots of stuff involving the military).
Summer camp.

There is a sense of pride associated with achievement within certain social circles, which would not have any kind of quality control without behavior that many people may consider offensive or uncomfortable. Some people just aren’t emotionally cut out for certain roles, and some “rites of passage” serve to weed out these people. Certain types of hazing force people to think on their feet and teach valuable lessons.

It’s not always pointless “practical jokes” – for example, sending someone on a wild goose chase in an unfamiliar area can force them to acclimate themselves. Pepper spraying a person helps to adequately prepare them for a real-life fight situation, teaching them to remain calm and defend themselves despite being uncomfortable. Ultimately, it can enhance a person’s personality and life skills (overcoming challenges) in ways that nothing but experience can teach.

Btw, I am a girl.

@fizzbanger: You make some valid points but they apply only to members of groups who have volunteered, and thus know what is in store for them.

What applies to a 19-year old who enlists in a combat prep troop in the Army or Marines does not to a 15-year old. A Navy Seal and a ninth grade male who may well have not yet started to mature physically have different needs, don’t you think?

And I would speculate that the Karate or other martial arts tests are also age-appropriate and transparent, giving the student a sense of what he has signed up for.

A high school freshman who gets singled out is not given a choice. And I know of no summer campers, who are normally well under the age of consent, who would enjoy being zapped with pepper spray or being embarrassed on a wild-goose chase.

How old are you? Do you have children? Would your brother, as a middle-schooler, have been distressed had he been hazed. You have mentioned his issues here on a public forum, so I hope you don’t mind me bringing it up. He had not yet been diagnosed when he was a young teen-ager, but I would posit that it would have still been very unsettling for him.

Karate tests are hazing? Maybe we define hazing differently. Navy chief induction and BUDS, I am not sure what that hazing entails. Is it hazing or some sort of training?

Hazing to me is completely unnecessary behaviors that accomplish nothing but showing the new person they are new, making someone prove loyalty and commitment through activities that do neither, or doing something purposely to humiliate the person.

“There is a sense of pride associated with achievement within certain social circles, which would not have any kind of quality control without behavior that many people may consider offensive or uncomfortable. Some people just aren’t emotionally cut out for certain roles, and some “rites of passage” serve to weed out these people.”

This makes sense for situations in which entrance to a group is optional, and in which a certain amount of emotional strength is required for success in the particular group, but it does not apply well to high school. Even kids who do not have great emotional strength need to go to high school. Hazing these kids will simply make them miserable because they do not have the option to simply quit the group if they find out they are not “cut out for it.” This goes back to my original statement that it is foolhardly to assume that any and all freshmen will react to hazing in a positive way.

To pick up on what @Mariah said, which I fully agree with, I fear the people who are less emotionally equipped are the ones picked on more in high school.

So if it’s unwanted, (meaning the kid is not trying to be accepted into any kind of group), it’s not hazing! There ya go. If the kid is being “hazed”, he is asking for it, because he has the option to say no and walk away. Otherwise, it’s just bullying, which is not cool, but something else entirely.

If you’re the kid, it may be interesting semantically to compare and contrast hazing and bullying but not helpful in the long run.

Relevant Op-Ed piece in today’s NYT. The writer does label the behavior as bullying but the lines can easily blur, particularly with today’s information explosion.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/23/opinion/why-cyberbullying-rhetoric-misses-the-mark.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha212

“THE suicide of Jamey Rodemeyer, the 14-year-old boy from western New York who killed himself last Sunday after being tormented by his classmates for being gay, is appalling. His story is a classic case of bullying: he was aggressively and repeatedly victimized.something, anything, to make it stop… in the rush to find a solution, adults are failing to recognize how their conversations about bullying are often misaligned with youth narratives. Adults need to start paying attention to the language of youth if they want antibullying interventions to succeed.

Jamey recognized that he was being bullied and asked explicitly for help, but this is not always the case. Many teenagers who are bullied can’t emotionally afford to identify as victims, and young people who bully others rarely see themselves as perpetrators. For a teenager to recognize herself or himself in the adult language of bullying carries social and psychological costs. It *requires acknowledging oneself as either powerless or abusive.”

@fizzbanger This discussion wound up being pretty cliché.

Welcome to Fluther.

@gailcalled this isn’t hazing. It’s a sad story, but the kid was tormented by mean comments online. According to ABC, he had a therapist and a social worker, and had already expressed suicidal feelings, which I think makes it a bigger failure on the part of adults. Thanks for the great link.

This is off-topic, but I found it interesting that, according to the boy’s parents, some of the bullying came from a student religious group.

@gailcalled … he was aggressively and repeatedly victimized How aggressive is aggressive? They doused him with gas, and taunted him with lighters, they had a bat party where they whacked him with towel covered bats? Repeatedly would be 2 times a semester, 5 times the school year, 6 times a month, once a week, every other day, at least once everyday? A kid getting rat tailed three time in a whole freshman year at best seems as fat from bullying as the planet formally known a Pluto is to the sun.

@Hypocrisy_Central You seriously don’t get it. There are moments in people’s life that have profound effect. It can be a pivotal moment. A 12 year old is told she is ugly by an obnoxious boy, and the rest of her life she feels ugly, becomes obsessed with plastic surgery, or not going outside without her make up on. A 15 year old is told by a dance teacher she is getting pudgy, will never be prima, she becomes bulimic. The nerdy kid gets rat tailed in the gym, and all the cool guys laugh at him. He isolates himself and feels inadequate, getting depressed, hopefully not angry. Sure, these might be only a minority of people who have such strong reactions, but why risk it? Why is it so much fun to be an asshole? To throw a kid in a hamper? Or, tease someone? Or, whatever? What are you getting out of it that you want to do such a thing? I still think it is awful.

In my opinion, everyone who condemned the hazing in this discussion has it right. Anyone who opposed it has it wrong. I seriously don’t think children or adults for that matter are more sensitive today. It is all about standards. Some people might think it is okay to get abused that way whereas others won’t. One may argue that its not always abuse and may be right but, regardless, the important this how one perceives it.