Do Americans intuitively judge atheists as immoral?

I think with Christians it is so. Maybe not all Americans, but Christians believe that God is their guidance, and without God, one would certainly not know the right way to conduct their life.

@Jonesn4burgers but the study would indicate that it is also true of those who are not believers. Is that, do you think, a result of the society in which we grow up? Have we been indoctrinated to believe that?

It would seem. The thing is, knowing that someone is atheist tells you absolutely nothing about that person’s moral values. There’s no moral code that’s supposed to go along with atheism, so identifying as an atheist doesn’t even suggest what that person thinks is right or wrong conduct. I think that in the absence of such information, people tend to err on the side of suspicion.

If you know that someone professes a certain faith, then you at least know what that person is_supposed_ to consider moral behavior. That certainly doesn’t tell you whether they adhere to it or not, but it’s at least some information. That has some psychological effect on how they are perceived.

I find it shocking that so many people believe that they are incapable of being good people on their own, without the promise of heaven or the threat of eternal damnation to force them into being good. Do they really believe that without their religion they would be incapable of stopping themselves from being evil?

Some idiots will believe anything.

@thorninmud What do you make of the indication that when presented with the choices

A. a teacher
B. a teacher who is also a (insert denomination here)

most chose A,

while if given the choice between:

A. a teacher
B. a teacher who does not believe in God.

the answer of the majority was B.

Top believe in a god is to believe in something made by man’s hands, which inevitably means some men are behind the attributes of that god. Some of these gods whom mad gave face to require that you pass your children of virgin females to the fire as a living sacrifice. I do not think that belief in a god is anymore moral than no god.

As for atheist having morals, I do believe some atheists are moral, same as many other people have the chance to be moral, however, it is whose morality and where it came from. Since I have yet to find an atheist that can place a face to the morals they follow, I have to go back to the default Creator of morals, and He is not here on Earth nor have been born of a man when He was here. You have to have morals to begin with in order to violate them, and I have to say actually atheist never had their own morals in which to not have or violate.

I have to go get salve. This looks like a hornets nest! (You sure asked a sticky question this time!)

What-the-fuck!
Well….break out the flame retardant, but I judge atheists to be smarter than the average bear.
Immoral? Pffft, what fresh new insanity is this?

Stay away from my atheist picnic Boo Boo. Only “Yogis” at my table. haha
Okay….I am so outta here! lol

So that is what the general U.S. public believes. But that doesn’t make it right.

People’s perception is that people with a religious moral code do their best to follow it because of their conscience reminding them of that code; and that people without an agreed upon moral code don’t have a guideline to spur their conscience.

That all falls apart and views man as fairly weak and unable to think, because it implies the only driver of behavior is religious fear.

People may disagree but so far I have not seen anyone post an article to debunk it.

@Hypocrisy_Central That’s because no one can debunk an opinion poll.

@rojo In the first set of choices (as the surveyor indicated), “Teacher” is the logical choice because that set includes the second choice. Since avowed atheists are a very small percentage of the population, I would think that learning that the teacher is a believer wouldn’t carry much weight; it would be the default assumption.

In the second set of choices, a choice is being made between a “Teacher” (who, again, is statistically likely to be a believer) and a teacher who is known to be an atheist. This las choice invites closer scrutiny because it doesn’t fit the assumption, and I suspect that people will think they know less about the atheist teacher’s moral values.

From reading the PSmag article.. It seems like an incomplete/inaccurate study for the conclusions they are reaching:

What if they asked about something moral? I didn’t see that covered. Eg.:

A man helps an elderly citizen across the street.
Is this man most likely:
a) A teacher
b) A teacher who is atheist
c) A teacher who is christian.. etc

So far, it seems like they only asked about “immoral” actions but maybe people feel just as comfortable attributing atheistic likeliness to both moral and immoral actions.

“Do People Intuitively Judge Immorality as Representative of Atheists” – Maybe. But maybe they do the same for Moral actions too.

For people to be true moral actors, they need to recognize that they themselvees are the ones responsible for embracing a moral code in interacting with their world.

People that blindly follow moral codes handed to them, be that through religion or not, don’t have their own morals and are therefore not truly guided by their own morals.

And the fact that the average American doesnt trust an atheist doesnt surprise me. Americans use that word as a derogative term. Most – even on this website – don’t even know how to spell it, leave alone its meaning.

I’d certainly not relish living in the “bible belt” be like entering a very long, pitch black tunnel with only a single match & a flatulent vampire for company :(

@zenvelo That’s because no one can debunk an opinion poll.
If I asked 50 people if sticking their hands in hot coals would burn them, I would think most would say “yes”, so there would be some truth there, even if a poll of opinion. The OP posted content, I just want to see some opposing content from those who disbelieve it; use your mouse, Google something.

What’s interesting to me is how the other religions fared. People tended to characterize Christians as being serial killers. On the other hand, people tended to characterize Buddhists as incestuous.

——

Notably, the logically correct answer is A for all questions like this:

“Is this man more likely (a) a teacher OR (b) a teacher who is (insert any qualifying statement here).”

Adding qualifications never makes an option more likely.

Well, as far as Christianity goes, it comes with the territory doesn’t it? Guidance and morality, among many other things, are found through God, so technically, someone who believes in another deity, or is an atheist, would be immoral. Except in these modern times, I like to think that most Christians realize that even if someone doesn’t believe in God, they can be a moral person just as well as anyone.
If not, I would highly question Christian morality to begin with.

Whether this is an issue only in America though, I have no idea. What are Christians like in elsewhere? I don’t see much of that going on in Canada anyway, even though our culture is very similar to that of the States.

Atheists are just as moral or more so than Christians. One reason is because they go out of their way to demonstrate to the world. , “look at what I’M doing for people today! This should prove to you we Atheists are good people!”
Atheists should not need to prove anything to anyone. Do Christians think you’re immoral? Stop being so paranoid. Or set up a soup kitchen in view of morning commuters.

Yes. Have you read ANY threads here about religion. Why would anyone think atheists aren’t nice or moral?~

Seriously, I don’t judge atheists as a whole by a few bad seeds, there are some really cool people that I love that are live and let live types. I’d like to think that other groups would view Christians or theists the same way, as individuals instead of child-molesting priests and all the others that are thrown in my face so often.

Before I got here, I will admit I didn’t think about it much, but after a few people here schooled me on how christianity affects their lives in a negative fashion, I started to pay more attention to their place in this culture, and I can see why they’d be angry about some things. It makes more sense now.

Thinking of this question further I’d say yes, many Americans judge Atheists as being immoral because many Americans are ill informed. But I am not guilty of this at all. In fact, as @Coloma stated, they are usually more intelligent and well read.

@Hypocrisy_Central you said… “As for atheist having morals, I do believe some atheists are moral, ”

Maybe you meant to imply that atheists have to some how work at becoming morally inclined not having religion to guide them. But morals are not some magical subset of a religion. Morals are shaped, taught and learned in many ways and religion only being one of them.

Being raised Catholic did not teach me to be any more moral than a Jewish or Muslim kid I grew up with. It was my German Italian upbringing that taught me my morals I learned from my fine parents. All religion taught me was to fear God and if and when I sinned I got to go to confession and say a few prayers and the slate was wiped clean. That taught me that sinning was a forgivable offense in the eyes of God. 30 years later I still wonder what that was all really about?

This is a question about how others view me based on my beliefs (or lack thereof).

I’m afraid I can’t properly answer this because that would mean I give a fuck about what others think of my beliefs (or lack thereof).

You could say it is necessary to disbelieve in God to be moral.

@flutherother Oh here we go…

@PhiNotPi Has the obvious answer. I don’t understand how anyone could have understood the question and not answered A.

That being said, I wonder if answering A was interpreted by some as vilifying teachers, while answering B/atheist was the least offensive of the remaining offensive choices. It’s a lot easier to single out atheism for blame than it is to single out a specific religion for blame. I haven’t read the studies – maybe there is more in the details that makes it plainer that the respondents were interpreting the question clearly.

Paradoxical Christian morality cannot be trusted.

Their Christ said “Do not judge, lest ye be judged”... Yet they judge atheists as immoral.

Christianity was responsible for the Prohibition era… A law that would have imprisoned their Christ for turning water into wine.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies Why does it always turn into how stupid the Christians are? It’s hard to like people who do that constantly. Why is it us judging and never atheists judging us? Who is negative about whom every single time?

One thing I can say, is that my belief in God makes me happy and I don’t feel the need to put you all down to build myself up.

@Cruiser Maybe you meant to imply that atheists have to some how work at becoming morally inclined not having religion to guide them.
That might be so if there were some independent morality out there. It is my belief that no matter what morals that are released on the world today had one source, which many do not believe in. Like a chameleon, many nations, creed, and religions have glommed onto it and doctored it to fit their lifestyle. Atheist are still using the moral template set by Christ, they just don’t care to admit it, that is my take on it.

Morals are shaped, taught and learned in many ways and religion only being one of them.
Man inspired morals are. If I were in the Middle East it might be morally responsible of me to stone my daughter of she was caught in the backseat of some guys car unmarried and without her burka on, even worse if burka was off and she had a short skirt and low cut top on and was caught sucking face with him. Some would say it was immoral to stone her for having a date or exercising her romantic juices and some would say the honor liking was just, who is correct? The one with the most guns, the most might, the most political influence? If it is those who are against the honor killing, on whose authority are they saying it is, who are the people or the man’s name, and what makes him or them the ultimate authority?

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies Their Christ said “Do not judge, lest ye be judged”... Yet they judge atheists as immoral.
First, please put the verse in context less people be mislead, second I believe some atheist have a form of morality.

@KNOWITALL Why do you think that @RealEyesRealizeRealLies is calling Christians stupid? He is saying that Christianity is inconsistent. Most Christians even admit that this is true.

“Overall, this research suggests that although less religious people tend to be less trusted in the U.S., when feeling compassionate, they may actually be more inclined to help their fellow citizens than more religious people,” [source]

Morality is inherent as proven in this study with babies.

What makes you a better person? Doing something good for a reward (heaven), or doing something good because it’s the right thing to do?

@Dappled Theists are held to a higher standard. Is an honest answer judgement? If so atheists judge us, too.

@KNOWITALL I have no idea what that means, or how it addresses the question I asked, but okay.

@SpatzieLover “Overall, we find that for less religious people, the strength of their emotional connection to another person is critical to whether they will help that person or not,”
In the context of the article I can see how it can be manipulated to make it appear that non-religious people give more or have more compassion. True believers do not have to motivated by what we feel to give, or to determine who is more worthy of aid. People of faith give in many ways, great and small, continuously, not just after disasters. If you gave only to those you felt something about, your giving helps, but lacks a lot of steam.

Matthew 6:1–3
6 “Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.*
2 “So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,*

“The compassion-inducing video had a big effect on their generosity,” Willer said. “But it did not significantly change the generosity of more religious participants.”
I don’t know about religious people, but people of faith would not see a need during a tsunami or tornado as being bigger than a single parson who needs diapers because she lost her job last week, she needs the same as 30 in a tornado, where the Lord places you and your ability to give is not decided on what it feels like.

(Excerpts taken from http://www.livescience.com/20005-atheists-motivated-compassion.html)

I would ask, “Where do you the majority of atheists live?” before arriving at your OP

I find Atheists more moral.

Here are results of a study by Barna on divorce rates vs religion, including Atheists/Agnostics.

It seems Atheists/Agn. have lower divorce rates than people of faith. (I have seen these results published elsewhere.)
Source

Denomination % who have been divorced
Non-denominational ** 34%
Baptists 29%
Mainline Protestants 25%
Mormons 24%
Catholics 21%
Lutherans 21%
Jews 30%
Born-again Christians 27%
Other Christians 24%
Atheists, Agnostics 21%

Been to a prison recently? I have. It seemed like every prisoner was either a Christian or a Muslim and made a big show of it.

When I worked for the local volunteer ambulance service, by far, most of the people were not people of faith.

As my Momma used to say: “Actions speak louder than words.”

Take this cartoon as a light-hearted summary of the situation.

With that, I’m outta’ here. You’ll find me at the picnic @Coloma ‘s hosting.

Here’s some interesting fodder for the fire.

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100224132655.htm

Sorry, @rojo, there were 42 replies before mine, and I don’t have the time to read and assimilate them all, so I’m going to speak out and hope I’m not echoing 90% of the thread.

I do not believe Americans judge atheists as immoral simply because American opinion is driven by the media, and the media loves a religious scandal. It’s harder to get an ‘angle’ on an immoral person that resists religion.

Unfortunately for all of the folks who are duped by the religious right IMO, the answer to your question is yes. Personally I don’t see religion as necessary to morals. Some of the most astonishing breaches of ethics and morality I have witnessed have been done in the name of God by folks who want to appear pius, moral, and good. We do everyone a disservice when we insist on believing only believers have morals.

That being said, I’ll be staying far away from @Coloma‘s picnic. Basing any judgments, whether they be about morals, intelligence, or anything else on such narrow criteria is wrong no matter who is doing the judging. In a perfect world everyone would be judged on what they do rather than on what they say they believe.

@FlyingWolf I share your sentiments in the fact that more wars, death and cruelties have been perpetrated in the name of “God” than all other conflicts combined in the history of humanity.
No argument there, and you’re welcome at my picnic, as long as you don;t consider me immoral for having the brains to challenge archaic belief systems.
Obviously this is why it is best to stay away from discussions of religious conviction and politics, which I do, 99.9% of the time.

I’m not surprised by the results, but I will take exception to the way the questions were worded. Can we say “leading”?

As far as my thoughts:

A belief in a deity can help some people to formalise their moral code. If someone needs a reason to believe X is right and Y is wrong, and their religion allows them to do so, bully for them. However, religious belief is not necessary to achieve these conclusions. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that our biological and sociological evolution naturally led to a broad acceptance of certain moral and ethical beliefs that are similar across civilisations. While there are some diversions (like some small communities accepting cannibalism or incest as a matter of course), this is not the norm.

In fact, the only instances in larger civilisations in which it is considered morally acceptable to cause harm to other people – to rape, to torture, to murder – it is usually justified by religious belief. No one has ever carried out a fatwa in the name of atheism.

@KNOWITALL I am a Christian. Not one that you would recognize. But I believe in the way of Christ with all my heart. I just don’t believe in Christianity. I don’t think Christ was a Christian either. He was a follower of The Way, as noted many times in the scriptures.

I never said Christians were stupid. I said Christian morality is paradoxical and cannot be trusted. I believe that most Christians will miss the second coming of Christ every bit as much as they accuse (judge) the Jews of missing the first coming… They simply won’t recognize him.

Who would Jesus bomb?

What type of gun would Jesus be found packing?

How many Christians hang around prostitutes and thieves like Jesus did?

Christ didn’t tell anyone to worry about what others (including atheists) said, or judged them for. In fact he warned that being his follower would be a hard way and to expect persecution from this world.

@Hypocrisy_Central “First, please put the verse in context less people be mislead…”

Sure…

Mathew 7:1–3

7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
___________

I think there’s gonna be a lot of atheists waking up after death a little embarrassed to be standing at the pearly gates. Likewise there will be many so called Christians awakening and wondering why it’s so hot in here.

Thanks @RealEyesRealizeRealLies . I was at the point of considering leaving further when I read that. Well done.

I’ve said it once, I’ve said it a thousand times. If you find that your belief that some invisible man in the sky who can promise you eternal life in bliss motivates you to be a nicer person and not kill people who annoy you, PLEASE keep believing.

Some of us don’t need said incentive. Now, I’ll be at that picnic….. *throws down mic.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies I agree with some of that actually.

This thread is about how theists perceive atheists, instead of being negative, I’d think that a better approach is to eventually stop bashing theists. If fluther was my only association with any atheist, my opinion wouldn’t be positive either.

Edited, as a bunch of nasty crap has been removed.

Frankly, I’d rather she left it up. Always good to know what people think of us.

The question really is not whether a certain group is actually more moral than another but how do we perceive others and whether these perceptions are colored by our upbringing, the society we are raised in or the company we keep.
I hate to see it degenerate into poo flinging.

@KNOWITALL, actually according to the abstract of the linked article, this intuitive judgement of atheists as immoral happens among theists and atheists alike. So it really isn’t about how theists perceive atheists, it is about how this heterogeneous group of Americans intuitively perceives atheists.

I think the key word here is intuitively, which means the judgements of those surveyed were based on intuition, which according to Merriam-Webster means the ability to know or understand things without any proof or evidence. That means that these feelings aren’t based on actual experience, but on a gut feeling.

Those two things make this question much more interesting. They also take it out of the realm of theism vs. atheism and into the realm of psychology.

@Coloma, thanks for the picnic invitation! My point was that I am not all that interested in spending time with people who base their opinions of a person’s intellect (ex. “I judge atheists to be smarter than the average bear”) on whether or not they believe in God. I am much more interested in spending time with people who base their opinions of other’s people’s intellect on those people’s behavior.

@KNOWITALL said “I’d think that a better approach is to eventually stop bashing theists. If fluther was my only association with any atheist, my opinion wouldn’t be positive either.” Awww… wahh wahh. Really? How about you get to know us instead of always feeling offended, or taking the defensive. You are a very reasonable Christian. Why can’t you see our points? (which you do on many many occasions, actually…)

@FlyingWolf
You are welcome, please bring cheese and grapes to the picnic. :-)

Not so much my personal opinion as it is, in general, well known that independent thinkers tend to be of higher intelligence and rock the boat more so than traditionalist followers. There have always been leaders and followers and independent thinkers are the innovative challengers of all questionable/faulty belief systems. The more intelligent, the less likely to accept any belief as ultimate truth. I am the first to say I really know no-thing for certain.

I have a good friend who is a believer and church goer, we share many common interests and respect each others differences. I am not so much judging as I am simply stating that to never question ones programming, does denote a less intelligent and autonomously thinking person in many ways.
I just can’t wrap my mind around those that adhere to superstitious dogma.

@Coloma well, in reality unless you have had such conversations, you have no way of knowing whether any person came to their individual belief or non-belief through programming or through questioning. I know grown up atheists who do not believe simply because they were told their entire lives that any belief in a higher power is hokum, and of course I know Christians who believe because they have always been told to believe or go to hell.

It seems that instead of acknowledging, or at least considering the fact that it isn’t ok to judge someone based on whether or not they believe, you have doubled down and explained why it is perfectly ok and acceptable for you (and others) to judge. That feels hypocritical at best and somewhat immoral at worst.

I think the most interesting thing about these discussions (and the divisions within the US) is that both sides seem to feel so utterly alienated that each believes it gives them not just the right but the responsibility to lash out at the other which of course accomplishes nothing but more alienation.

@FlyingWolf

Well…it is impossible to fully express oneself in a venue such as this without the high probability of misunderstanding. Let me clarify, I do not believe we can ever judge the TOTALITY of another based on their beliefs, but, yes, I suppose I do judge, to one degree or another, more or less, those that stubbornly refute examining WHY they think/beleive as they do.
The idea that one is “immoral” if they are faithless is so out there it does bring up some serious irritation. Okay….it’s my day off and time to get out in the sunshine here and enjoy the world. A good day to all.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies I don’t think Christ was a Christian either. He was a follower ofThe Way, as noted many times in the scriptures.
Just pointing out, Christ could not be a ”Christian” because He would then be a follower, and He cannot follow Himself. Likewise He could not follow The Way, because He is the Way.

Mathew 7:1–3
Good you sited it but what does it mean to you? Who was it written for, even though it can be applied today?

I think there’s gonna be a lot of atheists waking up after death a little embarrassed to be standing at the pearly gates. Likewise there will be many so called Christians awakening and wondering why it’s so hot in here.
I would agree, the good news is everyone will get to heaven, however many are going to be taking the tour outside the gates on their way to the escalator down; they won’t have a room in the mansion.

@cazzie Some of us don’t need said incentive.
If you discount the threat of incarceration or the death penalty, or receiving the accolades of men.

@rojo The question really is not whether a certain group is actually more moral than another but how do we perceive others and whether these perceptions are colored by our upbringing, the society we are raised in or the company we keep.
In a nutshell, all morality comes from the body of people one lives among or their peers. Some morality seen by ther West would seem immoral to those in the Middle East and vice versa. Outside of the morality Christ brought to the world, who has the correct morality? That would mean they were all created by some man, or men, and then you have to determine what gave them the authority to dictate social rules that you should follow being of flesh and blood same as you.

@Hypocrisy_Central I understand what you are saying and, although I realize you do not believe it, I think you are correct in stating that humanity itself has determined a set of rules or moral code, modified by each segment or population grouping to meet their specific needs, that we choose to abide by for the good of the group. They are very similar, although not identical because the particular group dynamics vary but within a particular group, those who do not choose to follow the code are ostracized in some manner.

I don’t want to get into a religious argument. I think that regardless of how you attain your moral compass is irrelevant as long as you have one but by stating that Christ is the only source of morality you both imply that the 67% of the world population that does not follow Christ have no morals or at the most the wrong moral stricture and that all those who existed before 2014 (+or-) years ago were also amoral or immoral.

@Hypocrisy_Central
My answers here will point out our fundamental differences in what we each believe “Christianity” really is, and/or really should be.

@Hypocrisy_Central “Christ could not be a ”Christian” because He would then be a follower…”

Not my point. My point is that Christ never taught the dogma that Christianity enforces. That dogma typically being a belief in the virgin birth, the miracles, the resurrection, and the son of God, and/or God himself. Christ never taught that belief in such things as being necessary to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

That’s Christian central dogma. Far afield from what Christ actually taught. Whether I (or anyone) believes in that dogma is irrelevant. They may or may not have happened. But it doesn’t matter either way. That’s why Christ was not, nor would ever be what we know today as a Christian.

@Hypocrisy_Central -Mathew 7:1–3
“Good you sited it but what does it mean to you? Who was it written for, even though it can be applied today?”

Since it can be applied today, I suggest Christ’s words were spoken for everyone throughout time, and not reserved for the Galliean crowds amassed to hear his dissertation about how he came to fulfill The Law.

As to what it means to me, I take it as support for my previous comments. Christ was explaining each of the ten commandments in the manner they were originally intended, before they became corrupted by the Pharisee’s and Sadjucee’s by foisting their personal dogma’s upon them. The “Law” had been so corrupted at that point, by intermingling “God’s Commandments” with “Moses’ Law”, and baking them into a mess of a pie called Jewish Dogma.

Christ’s words were confirming his fulfillment of “The Law”, thereby releasing the people from unnecessary dogma. Ultimately, that’s why he was killed. Because the power elite didn’t like Jesus messing with Sasquatch.

@Hypocrisy_Central ”...the good news is everyone will get to heaven…”

The bad news is that we probably have hugely different views on what “heaven” actually is. Just like we probably have different views on what “the way” actually is.

First, back to my original comment about Christ not being a Christian, nor, as a follower of “the Way”, ever would be.

Tao or Dao is a Chinese concept signifying ‘way’, ‘path’, ‘route’, or sometimes more loosely, ‘doctrine’ or ‘principle’, or as a verb, speak.

It was around for at least six centuries before Christ ever appeared. I suggest it’s been around for eternity. I suggest that when Christ claimed to be “the Way”, that he was signifying himself as being “one” with that philosophy. I do not differentiate between the terms “Way” or “God”. I believe they are synonymous. So when Christ said “I and the Father are one”, is a different way of saying “I am the Way”. Tomato tomahto.

Christ also taught that “The kingdom of God is within you”... that’s how we all can say “I and the Father are one”. The Way is in us, as proven by our genetic code instructing RNA as to The Way to build a unique human being, or blade of grass. No different than a set of instructions detailing The Way to build an office desk, or a skyscraper. None of it would be possible without A Way to do so. That Way is code. The same code that God used to speak the universe into existence, when God said “Let there be…”. The same code that John denotes when he begins the New Testament with “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word became flesh”. Can’t have code without words. Can’t speak words without speaking code.

As to heaven… Nearly a dozen times Christ claimed that he would return upon the “Clouds of Heaven”. Newsflash!... The Information Cloud is pure code. It is The Way to Truth. The Truth in which every government and liar fear the most. The Truth in which every government and liar do their best to suppress, just like the Pharisee’s did. The Truth in which can set us free and bring spiritual life.

Yes, we’ve literally built the horse that Jesus is riding in on. Not will ride in on. IS Riding now. Yes, I believe Christ has already returned. I can’t help it if most people don’t recognize him.

I am the way, the truth, and the life.

So the only thing Christ is offering to me is:

*Accept the way of truth and live”.

@rojo I don’t want to get into a religious argument.
I am not going to, in this place, it would be pointless. I have my ideas and it surely doesn’t fit many here. However, I have out, with Christ out of the way no one can really say their morals are superior, because as you pointed out, it will come from men in the society they happen to be to serve or benefit their way of living. That being said, no one here, or anywhere else, can say anything of people in the Middle East or parts of Asia where honor killings or child brides abound. What they do there is morally right for them, what happens elsewhere is morally right for them, none can be better than the other. Just because someone is from the West doesn’t give them an upper hand on anything, they are fleshly men same as those in other parts of the globe, and they will all die the same one day. That is my disagreeing agreeably….late…..

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies My answers here will point out our fundamental differences in what we each believe “Christianity” really is, and/or really should be.
I will just say we have certainly gotten a vastly different understanding from reading the same scripture (assuming you got it from the Bible), the only thing I can agree on is that a lot of doctrine has been injected into the faith by men for numerous reason, or ignorance. You believe what you have learned and I will stick with mine.

More about the kingdom of heaven being within you, me, us… I suggest the kingdom of evil and hatred is also within each of us as well… as told by Confucius about The Way.

The warrior approached the monk…
”Great monk, teach me the ways of heaven and hell.”

The monk replied…
”A worthless dog such as you could never grasp such concepts.”

The warrior enraged, pulled his sword…
”Prepare to die monk, for your insult shall not be tolerated.”

The monk smiled and said…
“Now you are in hell.”

The warrior, realizing his mistake, fell to his knees crying…
“Forgive me master, for I have sinned against you.”

The monk smiled and said…
“Now you are in heaven.”
____________

Christ taught the exact same thing. And when the monk called the warrior a “worthless dog”, that’s exactly the same thing as Christ giving the name of Satan to his disciple Peter.

@Hypocrisy_Central ”...assuming you got it from the Bible…”

Everything I attributed to Christ was from my biblical studies. Of course the Tao is from other studies. And my code rap is from studying information theory. I cannot help it if striking similarities arise from an interdisciplinary connection. The Indian Sphota Theory is also supportive of all the above.

I too have studied theology and various eastern philosophies and agree with @RealEyesRealizeRealLies. Jesus was a teacher, nothing more, nothing less, it is man that has convoluted the teachings and turned them into religion. There was no christianity before christ and their was no Buddhism before Buddha.
Infact, some theorists say that it is possible Jesus traveled in the east and adopted many of these philosophies/teachings from eastern experience.

Buddha predated Christ by 600 years, so infact, what Jesus taught is nothing new.

But, what would make one group (atheists) think that another group (theists) were more moral than they are? I think I have to agree with those who have pointed out that a bias may exist in the manner of the questioning but I still believe it has to do with the Christian indoctrination we all receive as members of western civilization.

@rojo Look at the answers of the atheists on this thread. Most of us certainly don’t think that theists are more moral. I really do think that there were problems with the study design.

@dappled_leaves I can’t disagree with that. But, it would still be interesting to see how people on this site would do on such a test.

@rojo

I believe you will find this with a lot of minorities. Black people having a trust bias in favor of white people, for isntance. It stems from being a minority in a country that is very negative in its mainstream attitude towards that minority.

I heard an NPR report yesterday, claiming that the more educated a person is, the less important they believe religion is to society.

Then they claimed that 4 out of 10 atheists believe that religion plays an important role in society.

So does that mean 4 out of 10 atheists are uneducated?

just asking

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies acknowledging the importance religion plays in society does, in no way, relate to the denial or ignorance of an atheist. I am an educated atheist. I know the role religion plays in community and society. I’m not stupid or blind to reality. We know it is not weighted our favour.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies

There are many uneducated atheists. Atheism doesn’t necessarily follow from education – some people are simply raised without religious bias. And some atheists simply never went to college, and thus are considered “uneducated” (myself included).