Social Question

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

Can anyone point to any article or paper, etc. where scientist or biologist have found a true bona fide homosexual animal?

Asked by Hypocrisy_Central (26798points) May 12th, 2015

While reflecting on some past threads where the notion of gay animals came up and some believe there are gay animals, usually hanging their hat on the Bonobos (which is not all-inclusive), I went out earnestly seeking to answer that question using your scientist, the non-faith based type. Though many species have exhibited homosexual conduct it is not for reasons humans do, extrapolated from reports and papers I have Googled. The only mammal I have seen any of them agree is truly a bona fide homosexual in all of the 4,700 species of mammals and the 9,700 species of birds. However, there is one other mammal that can be called homosexual, I will cover that when I see how many of the truly non-homosexual animals people will try to make homosexual. Maybe there is something I missed Googling, if you have a report, scientific paper, etc. that points out a true bona fide homosexual species, not merely one that shows homosexual behavior do you have a link to it?

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53 Answers

Earthbound_Misfit's avatar

I haven’t read through all of these papers in any detail, but these are scientific sources that discuss homosexual activity amongst animals.

Rams. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091302211000021

Albatross. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2610150/

Lions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8gttC6P3bE

Homosexual activity in animals. https://goo.gl/jHWw69

There are reports about bottlenosed dolphins participating in homosexual behaviour but I can’t find a scientific source, only news sources.

rojo's avatar

Selected Mammals exhibiting homosexual behavior:
Mammals

African Buffalo[21]
African Elephant[22]
Agile Wallaby[23]
Amazon River Dolphin[19]
American Bison[21][24]
Antelope[25]
Asian Elephant[22]
Asian house shrew[26]
Asiatic Lion[27]
Asiatic Mouflon[28]
Atlantic Spotted Dolphin[19]
Australian Sea Lion[29]
Barasingha[30]
Barbary Sheep[31]
Beluga[19]
Bharal[32]
Bighorn Sheep[31]
Black Bear[33]
Blackbuck[34]
Black-footed Rock Wallaby[23]
Black-tailed Deer[30]
Bonnet Macaque[14]
Bonobo[35][36][37]
Bottlenose Dolphin[19][38]
Bowhead Whale[19]
Brazilian Guinea Pig[39]
Bridled Dolphin[19]
Brown Bear[33]
Brown Capuchin[40]
Brown Long-eared Bat[41]
Brown Rat[42]
Buffalo[31]
Caribou[43]
Cat (domestic)[44]
Cattle (domestic)[45]
Chacma baboon[46]
Cheetah[27]
Chital[47]
Collared Peccary[48]
Commerson’s Dolphin[19]
Common Brushtail Possum[49]
Common Chimpanzee[50]
Common Dolphin[19]
Common Marmoset[40]
Common Pipistrelle[51]
Common Raccoon[52]
Common Tree Shrew[53]
Cotton-top Tamarin[54]
Crab-eating Macaque[14]
Crested Black Macaque[14]
Dall’s Sheep[31]
Daubenton’s Bat[41]
Dog (domestic)[55]
Donkey[56]
Doria’s Tree Kangaroo[23]
Dugong[57]
Dwarf Cavy[39]
Dwarf Mongoose[58]
Eastern Cottontail Rabbit[42]
Eastern Grey Kangaroo[23]
Elk[30]
Euro (a subspecies of wallaroo)[23]
European Bison[21]
Fallow Deer[30]
False Killer Whale[19]
Fat-tailed Dunnart[59]
Fin Whale[19]
Fox[60]
Gazelle[25]
Gelada Baboon[61]
Giraffe[4][25][62]
Goat (Domestic)[31]
Golden Monkey[63]
Gorilla[64]
Grant’s Gazelle[25]
Grey-headed Flying Fox[41]
Grey Seal[29]
Grey squirrel[65]
Grey Whale[19][20]
Grey Wolf[66]
Grizzly Bear[33]
Guinea Pig (Domestic)[39]
Hamadryas Baboon[61]
Hamster (Domestic)[39]
Hanuman Langur[67]
Harbor Porpoise[68]
Harbor Seal[29]
Himalayan Tahr[69]
Hoary Marmot[70]
Horse (domestic)[71]
Human (see Human sexual behavior)
Indian Fruit Bat[41]
Indian Muntjac[72]
Indian Rhinoceros[73]
Japanese Macaque[14]
Javelina[74]
Kangaroo Rat[42]
Killer Whale[19]
Koala[75]
Kob[15][76]
Larga Seal[29]
Least Chipmunk[65]
Lechwe[76]
Lesser Bushbaby[77]
Lion[27][78][79][80][81][82]
Lion-tailed Macaque[14]
Lion Tamarin[40]
Little Brown Bat[41]
Livingstone’s Fruit Bat[41]
Long-eared Hedgehog[83]
Long-footed Tree Shrew[53]
Macaque[84]
Markhor[85]
Marten[52]
Matschie’s Tree Kangaroo[23]
Moco[86]
Mohol Galago[77]
Moor Macaque[14]
Moose[87]
Mountain Goat[31]
Mountain Tree Shrew[53]
Mountain Zebra[88]
Mouse (domestic)[89]
Moustached Tamarin[54]
Mule Deer[30]
Musk-ox[90]
Natterer’s Bat[41]
New Zealand Sea Lion[29]
Nilgiri Langur[67]
Noctule[51]
North American Porcupine[91]
Northern Elephant Seal[29]
Northern Fur Seal[29]
Northern Quoll[59]
Olympic Marmot[92]
Orangutan[93]
Pacific Striped Dolphin[19]
Patas Monkey[94]
Pere David’s Deer[30]
Pig (Domestic)[95]
Pig-tailed Macaque[14]
Plains Zebra[96]
Polar Bear[33]
Pretty-faced Wallaby[23]
Proboscis Monkey[63]
Pronghorn[97]
Przewalski’s Horse[88]
Pudú[47]
Puku[98]
Quokka[99]
Rabbit[100]
Raccoon[52]
Raccoon Dog[101]
Red Deer[30]
Red Fox[102]
Red Kangaroo[23]
Red-necked Wallaby[23]
Red Squirrel[65]
Reeves’s Muntjac[72]
Reindeer[43]
Rhesus Macaque[14]
Right Whale[19]
Rock Cavy[39]
Rodrigues Fruit Bat[41]
Roe Deer[30]
Rufous Bettong[103]
Rufous-naped Tamarin[54]
Rufous Rat Kangaroo[23]
Saddle-back Tamarin[54]
Savanna Baboon[61]
Sea Otter[104]
Serotine Bat[41]
Sheep (Domestic)[31][105]
Siamang[106]
Sika Deer[30]
Slender Tree Shrew[53]
Sooty Mangabey[94]
Sperm Whale[19]
Spinifex Hopping Mouse[42]
Spinner Dolphin[19]
Spotted Hyena[16][18]
Spotted Seal[29]
Squirrel Monkey[107]
Striped Dolphin[19]
Stuart’s Marsupial Mouse[108]
Sika deer[109]
Stumptail Macaque[14]
Swamp Deer[30]
Swamp Wallaby[23]
Takhi[88]
Talapoin[94]
Tammar Wallaby[23]
Tasmanian Devil[108]
Tibetan Macaque[110]
Tasmanian Rat Kangaroo[23]
Thinhorn Sheep[31]
Thomson’s Gazelle[25]
Tiger[111]
Tonkean Macaque[14]
Tucuxi[112]
Urial[113]
Vampire Bat[41]
Verreaux’s Sifaka[114]
Vervet[94]
Vicuna[115]
Walrus[116][117]
Wapiti[118]
Warthog[119]
Waterbuck[120]
Water Buffalo[31]
Weeper Capuchin[40]
Western Grey Kangaroo[23]
West Indian Manatee[121]
Whiptail Wallaby[23]
White-faced Capuchin[40]
White-fronted Capuchin[40]
White-handed Gibbon[122]
White-lipped Peccary[123]
White-tailed Deer[30]
Wild Cavy[39]
Wild Goat[31]
Wisent[21]
Yellow-bellied marmot[109]
Yellow-footed Rock Wallaby[23]
Yellow-toothed Cavy[39]

List of birds exhibiting homosexual behavior:
Birds

Acorn woodpecker[17]
Adelie penguin[18]
American flamingo[19]
American herring gull[20]
Anna’s hummingbird[21]
Australian shelduck[22]
Aztec parakeet[23]
Bengalese finch (Domestic)[24]
Bank swallow[25]
Barn owl[26]
Bearded vulture[27]
Bicolored antbird[28]
Black-billed magpie[29]
Black-crowned night heron[30]
Black-headed gull[31]
Black-rumped flameback[17]
Black stilt[32]
Black swan[15][16]
Black-winged stilt[32]
Blue-backed manakin[33]
Blue-bellied roller[34]
Blue Crowned Conure[35]
Blue tit[35]
Blue-winged teal[36]
Brown-headed cowbird[37]
Budgerigar (Domestic)[38]
Buff-breasted sandpiper[39]
Calfbird[40]
California gull[41]
Canada goose[42]
Canary-winged parakeet[23]
Caspian tern[43]
Cattle egret[44]
Common chaffinch[45]
Chicken [46]
Chilean flamingo[19]
Chiloe wigeon[36]
Chinstrap penguin[47]
Cliff swallow[25]
Common gull[41]
Common murre[48]
Common shelduck[22]
Crane spp.[49]
Dusky moorhen[49]
Eastern bluebird[35]
Egyptian goose[22]
Elegant parrot[23]
Emu[50]
Eurasian oystercatcher[51]
European jay[29]
European shag[52]

Galah[23]
Gentoo penguin[18]
Golden bishop bird[53]
Golden plover[51]
Gray-breasted jay[29]
Gray-capped social weaver[54]
Grey heron[44]
Great cormorant[52]
Greater bird of paradise[55]
Greater flamingo[19]
Greater rhea[50]
Green cheek conure[35]
Green sandpiper[56]
Greenshank[57]
Greylag goose[58]
Griffon vulture[26]
Guianan cock-of-the-rock[13][14]
Guillemot[48]
Hammerhead (also known as Hammerkop)[59]
Herring gull[20]
Hoary-headed grebe[60]
Hooded warbler[61]
House sparrow[37]
Humboldt penguin[18]
Ivory gull[62]
Jackdaw[29]
Kestrel[26]
King penguin[18]
Kittiwake[63]
Laughing gull[62]
Laysan albatross[48]
Lesser flamingo[19]
Lesser scaup duck[22]
Little blue heron[44]
Little egret[44]
Long-tailed hermit hummingbird[21]
Lory spp.[23]
Mallard[36]
Masked lovebird[23]
Mealy amazon parrot[23]
Mew gull[41]
Mexican jay[64]
Musk duck[22]
Mute swan[65]
Ocellated antbird[28]
Ocher-bellied flycatcher[66]
Orange bishop bird[54]
Orange-fronted parakeet[23]
Ornate lorikeet[23]
Ostrich[50]

Peach-faced lovebird[23]
Pied flycatcher[67]
Pied kingfisher[34]
Pigeon (Domestic)[68]
Powerful owl[69]
Purple swamphen[49]
Raggiana’s bird of paradise[70]
Raven[29]
Razorbill[48]
Red-backed shrike[35]
Red bishop bird[54]
Red-faced lovebird[23]
Common redshank[57]
Red-shouldered widowbird[71]
Regent bowerbird[72]
Ring-billed gull[41]
Ring dove[73]
Rock dove[73]
Roseate tern[43]
Rose-ringed parakeet[23]
Ruff[39]
Ruffed grouse[74]
Sage grouse[74]
San Blas jay[29]
Sand martin[25]
Satin bowerbird[75]
Scarlet ibis[19]
Scottish crossbill[45]
Senegal parrot[23]
Sharp-tailed sparrow[disambiguation needed][76]
Silver gull[20]
Silvery grebe[60]
Snow goose[42]
Steller’s sea eagle[77]
Stitchbird[78]
Superb lyrebird[79]
Swallow-tailed manakin[33]
Tasmanian native hen[49]
Tree swallow[80]
Trumpeter swan[81]
Domesticated turkey [82]
Victoria’s riflebird[70]
Wattled starling[37]
Western gull[1]
White-fronted amazon parrot[23]
White stork[83]
Wood duck[36]
Yellow-backed lorikeet[23]
Yellow-rumped cacique[64]
Zebra finch (Domestic)[84]

List of fish exhibiting homosexual behaviors;
ish
Arctic grayling (Thymallus arcticus) leaping for a fly fisherman’s bait. Research going back to the 1950s has shown both male and female graylings exhibit homosexual behavior.[47]

Amazon molly[48]
Bennett
Blackstripe topminnow[49]
Bluegill sunfish[49]
Char[47]
Grayling[47]
European bitterling[50]
Green swordtail[50]
Guiana leaffish[51]
Houting whitefish[47]
Jewel fish[52]
Least darter (Microperca punctulata)[50]
Mouthbreeding fish sp.[49]
Salmon spp.[53]
Southern platyfish[50]
Ten-spined stickleback[50]
Three-spined stickleback[50]

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^^ That is quite an expansive list. I already acquiesce the fact that quite a few has exhibited actions we humans can call homosexual in nature. Needless to say, even though those behaviors exist, I have yet to find a paper where a scientist says there are gay animals other than human less one, and that is limited in scope.

ragingloli's avatar

The domesticated sheep displays exclusively homosexual individuals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals#Sheep
(though that might have been bred into the sheep by very lonely sheep farmers)

ucme's avatar

@rojo Well played sir, the response to your detailed answers tells us all we need or care to know about, well, you know.

syz's avatar

Graduate research turned book: Biological Exuberance

zenvelo's avatar

There is a false premise to this question.

@Hypocrisy_Central wants scientific ”...a true bone fide homosexual species, not merely one that shows homosexual behavior…”

In other words, he wants evidence that all members of a species are homosexual, not just a subset. And there is no such species, just as there are not species that are exclusively heterosexual.

@Hypocrisy_Central wants to demonstrate that homosexuality is a choice, not an orientation.

We can start talking clownfish when the subject comes up to criticize transgender people.

gailcalled's avatar

OP: bona fide,please.

ucme's avatar

Bone Fido? Here boy, come & get it.

janbb's avatar

Wouldn’t a truly “bone fide” homosexual species now all be extinct?

tinyfaery's avatar

Being gay is a socially constructed identity. It’s a word meant to describe sexual attraction. Homosexual behavior exists among many species and not just mammals. The two are not the same.

(Ugh. How many times? HOW MANY FUCKING TIMES?)

wildpotato's avatar

^^As many as it takes for questions like this to be dismissed as ridiculous, ignorant, nearly incoherent, attention-seeking behavior that doesn’t deserve a response.

Dutchess_III's avatar

There was a Nova, or Nature, program a few weeks ago,about a particular kind of bird, where the females nest together, take turns caring for the chicks, and in general act like male/female mates. They do mating dances and rituals. They only hit the males up to create the chicks. Other than that, the males have no part in their lives.

I’ll keep looking for it.

rojo's avatar

How about this one: “The all-female Whiptail lizard species Cnemidophorus neomexicanus Research has shown that simulated mating behavior increases fertility. One female lies on top of another, playing the role of the male, the lizard that was on bottom has larger eggs. The lizards switch off this role each mating season.

ucme's avatar

Puff Adder ~

SQUEEKY2's avatar

@zenvelo answered this question exactly.
Couldn’t say it any better.

cazzie's avatar

I know about those lizards. Yes, exclusively female. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis

but again, these lizards don’t have a choice. It is how they evolved to reproduce.

wildpotato's avatar

Removed by me.

rojo's avatar

Para tu @Dutchess_III

Wright, J.W. and C.H. Lowe. 1968. Weeds, polyploids, parthenogenesis, and the geographical and ecological distribution of all-female species of Cnemidophorus. Copeia 1968: 128–138. no pdf (A classic on unisexual ecology.)

Parker, E.D. and R.K. Selander. 1976. The organization of genetic diversity in the parthenogenetic lizard Cnemidophorus tesselatus. Genetics 84:791–805. pdf (A classic on unisexual genetics.)

Crews, D. and K.T. Fitzgerald. 1980. “Sexual” behavior in parthenogenetic lizards (Cnemidophorus). Proceedings of the National Academy of Science USA 77: 499–502. pdf (A classic on unisexual behavior.)

Reeder, T.W., H.C. Dessauer, and C.J. Cole. 2002. Phylogenetic relationships of whiptail lizards of the genus Cnemidophorus (Squamata, Teiidae) : a test of monophyly, reevaluation of karyotypic evolution, and review of hybrid origins. American Museum Novitates 3365:1–62. pdf (In this paper, the genus Aspidoscelis is resurrected for part of the genus Cnemidophorus; because there is such a huge literature under the name Cnemidophorus prior to 2002, both names must be used when searching the literature. The part on hybrid origin begins on page 25.)

Cole, C.J., L.M. Hardy, H.C. Dessauer, H.L. Taylor, and C.R. Townsend. 2010. Laboratory hybridization among North American whiptail lizards, including Aspidoscelis inornata arizonae × A. tigris marmorata (Squamata: Teiidae), ancestors of unisexual clones in nature. American Museum Novitates 3698:1–43. pdf

Dutchess_III's avatar

(All I needed was a link!)

rojo's avatar

^^ Sorry, the CDO kicked in.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@zenvelo @Hypocrisy_Central wants scientific ”...a true bone fide homosexual species, not merely one that shows homosexual behavior…”
Again, I see you over thinking and reading too much into it again. Less that taint the rest of the responses, let me put the cookies on the lower shelf less the context be too complicated. Some people have alluded to animals being gay. Why? I suspect because animals at times for the most part do things we humans associate with homosexual activity. However, in animals, even the links provided, thank you, there is usually some context to this behavior, overall, it is for the survival of the species. I am not (as taken out of context) asking if there were a species that was 100% homosexual, that would go against the very theory of evolution would it not? The context I am using, is a segment of the species that is 100% bone fide homosexual, overriding any innate or hormonal instinct to procreate with the opposite sex to keep the species going. So, that makes your ”In other words, he wants evidence that all members of a species are homosexual, not just a subset.”, inaccurate to a great degree, so flush that from your memory banks, you have the right idea now. So, if you can actually find a paper that inconclusively shows a segment of any species other than man, that is homosexual on its own, and not out of necessity for survival, post it.

@tinyfaery Being gay is a socially constructed identity. It’s a word meant to describe sexual attraction. Homosexual behavior exists among many species and not just mammals. The two are not the same.
Some people seem to differ in that believe, they try hard to link the two, that homosexual behavior in animals shows there are attractions sexually in the species that are doing it and it is not for any other purpose, to display dominance, survival of the species, etc. but equal reason why humans end up homosexual, and since it is natural in animals, the same for humans. I know they are not the same, you need to tell that to those who refuse to believe that but try linkage all of the time.

@wildpotato As many as it takes for questions like this to be dismissed as ridiculous, ignorant, nearly incoherent, attention-seeking behavior that doesn’t deserve a response.
What are you saying, it is ridiculous to ask for proof of what is being slung out there because there is no proof and the question puts the notion on the hot seat? No wonder why this has reduced to a fluff-fill content farm, no one really wants true and pertinent questions asked, especially if it might expose a sacred cow as a fraud.

@rojo One female lies on top of another, playing the role of the male, the lizard that was on bottom has larger eggs. The lizards switch off this role each mating season.
And how are the eggs fertilized? And would not that go back to the primal need to preserve the species, larger eggs, perhaps mean a more robust baby lizard?

rojo's avatar

Parthenogenesis: “Parthenogenesis /ˌpɑrθənɵˈdʒɛnɨsɨs/ (from the Greek παρθένος parthenos, “virgin”, + γένεσις genesis, “creation”[1] ) is a form of asexual reproduction in which growth and development of embryos occur without fertilization. In animals, parthenogenesis means development of an embryo from an unfertilized egg cell and is a component process of apomixis.+ from Wikipedia

For me the more interesting question is why the one on bottom has the larger eggs. The pair switch roles in different mating seasons and yet regardless of which is on bottom, that is the one with the larger eggs.

Kind of makes you believe that the woman on bottom is gods will doesn’t it.

gailcalled's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central: Um, “that is 100% bone fide.” Getting it wrong once is careless, five times is something else.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^ I spelled it the way I found it online, and spell check did not flag it, regardless of how it is spelled I am sure the smart people here can figure it out, and it by no means negates the question.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

In the case of the New Mexico whiptail (Cnemidophorus neomexicanus) is there someone here who really is going to hop on the bandwagon that those lizards are homosexual lizards? If what I have read, off the provided link and a couple of others, they have no other choice for reproduction. The ”mating ritual” is to stimulate egg laying, they are not truly mating in the since of having sex, which by the article, they are incapable of doing. Their very existence one can quantify as an anomaly that occurred and manage to perpetuate its self. If there were no C. inornatus or C. tigris and them mating, there would be no New Mexico whiptails.

rojo's avatar

Since you seem bound and determined to anthropomorphize animals then sure, I will declare that, by definition {homosexual: [-sek′shəl] Etymology: Gk, homos + L, sexus, sex, gender (1) adj, pertaining to or denoting the same sex. (2) n, being sexually attracted to members of the same sex} this particular species of whiptail lizards are homosexual. Nowhere in the definition does it say that there have to be two (or more) species in order for it to apply. And you can call their relationship whatever you want to call it. I like to call it marriage as they seem to stay together as a couple for quite a long time.

True they breed without intercourse and are of only one sex and are therefore an abomination in the eyes of the lord but it works for them.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@rojo Since you seem bound and determined to anthropomorphize animals then sure, I will declare that, by definition {homosexual: [-sek′shəl] Etymology: Gk, homos + L, sexus, sex, gender (1) adj, pertaining to or denoting the same sex. (2) n, being sexually attracted to members of the same sex} this particular species of whiptail lizards are homosexual
It is simply the opposite; people have tried to anthropomorphize animals, making claims to put their behavior on level with humans. I am just taking a deeper look to see if there is any credence to those claims. This is what Fluther is supposed to be about, right? Yet I get the feeling people are ducking the true question because maybe it blows holes in _their anthropomorphizing of animals, because it doesn’t suit their aim to do so. I could have dismissed it as total poppycock, or debunked it using faith-based scientist, or some other measure connected to religion, but I seek to go to the secular scientist because they are supposed to be all about the facts. It is not I who are trying to humanize animals, you need to speak to a few others here, some are still around whom have alluded to such.

You can go on record to believe that, or anything else, it is just opinion without the secular scientist backing it up.

rojo's avatar

Truly, I am mystified.

Perhaps it would help if you clarified a few things such as:

What a “true bone fide homosexual animal” is to start with.

Or maybe start even earlier by stating what your definition of a homosexual is and what exactly homosexual behavior is.

What are your prerequisites for deciding which is a “true bone fide homosexual species, not merely one that shows homosexual behavior”?

Are you saying that Homo sapiens are a true bona fide homosexual species? If so, would question your conclusion since the vast majority of homo sapiens are heterosexual. Now Cnemidophorus neomexicanus there is a TRUE homosexual species if ever there was one; all members of a single sex that simulates mating with each other.

Then edify us with a clarification of your statement “Though many species have exhibited homosexual conduct it is not for reasons humans do”. Exactly what is the difference between why and how humans exhibit homosexual conduct and why and how, let us say Bonobos or Agile Wallabys, do?

Perhaps fill in the missing parts to the statement “The only mammal I have seen any of them agree is truly a bone fide homosexual in all of the 4,700 species of mammals and the 9,700 species of birds.”?

And now that you have seen ”... how many of the truly non-homosexual animals people will try to make homosexual”, what is the ”... one other mammal that can be called homosexual” in your opinion?

And finally, perhaps you can also explain how people, such as myself, are making “truly non-homosexual animals” homosexual.

whitenoise's avatar

Wow.

Stupidity displayed as a goal in itself. A bone fide case of intentional ignorance.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@rojo What a “true bone fide homosexual animal” is to start with.
Seeing there are no truly gay animals less domestic sheep (though II do not know if there is a particular breed of sheep that is susceptible to it, that detail was not provided) and that seemed to be more of ma byproduct of men meddling and crossbreeding, there is no evidence of it in wild sheep where men has not meddled. A certain percent of these sheep have no normal proclivity to get with a fertile ewe and prefer to try and mount mother rams. There is no posturing for dominance, or any other pragmatic reasons for it, and zero desire for the opposite sex.

Or maybe start even earlier by stating what your definition of a homosexual is and what exactly homosexual behavior is.
What are your prerequisites for deciding which is a “true bone fide homosexual species, not merely one that shows homosexual behavior”?
If one desires the same sex they are and have no amorous or passionate feelings for the other sex, and an aversion to be intimate or have sex which such, then they are homosexual.

Homosexual behavior is what Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal did in Brokeback Mountain, and _Léa Seydoux and Adèle Exarchopoulos in Blue is The Warmest Colour. Supposedly none of those actors and actresses are gay but the roles they played were gay even swapping spit (which supposedly happened in Brokeback Mountain but for the possibility nit might be in there somewhere, I will never view the movie to find out) and the lesbian sex scenes in Blue. It was the means to an end, the making of the movie, and it was their jobs, outside the movie set, they had opposite sex partners.

Are you saying that Homo sapiens are a true bona fide homosexual species?
Not totally, I am saying in homo sapiens (man) is the only species where true homosexuality exist less the domestic sheep which is not a true production of nature.

Then edify us with a clarification of your statement “Though many species have exhibited homosexual conduct it is not for reasons humans do”. Exactly what is the difference between why and how humans exhibit homosexual conduct and why and how, let us say Bonobos or Agile Wallabys, do?
I do not know about those wallabies but it is something I can now go investigate. From what I have learned about the Bonobos, since so many want to hang their homosexual animals hat, on them, I looked them up in several writings. Their sex seemed to be more about conflict elimination than anything else. It is more learned behavior like bears in Yellowstone knowing that those shiny metal things on the hard black stuff has food in them if you can get passed the door. The males might engage in activities that seem homosexual but they have not shunned the females when it comes to mating to make more Bonobos. Humans don’t engage in homosexual activities to calm a fight, or quash social disputes.

[… what is the ”... one other mammal that can be called homosexual” in your opinion?
It is about 8% of domestic sheep, and it was not my opinion, I stumbled upon that fact during the research, it is the opinion of scientist based off the facts they have observed, I never would have figured it.

And finally, perhaps you can also explain how people, such as myself, are making “truly non-homosexual animals” homosexual.
I cannot say that you are definitively, but there are some who try, and try hard. That is what spurred me to take a deeper look. I could have simply said they were daffy and not even bothered to hunt down the science, but I didn’t.

Now, you asked some questions, I tried best to answer them, I could have attacked your reasoning for asking them, called it silly or worse, but true honest discourse I thought was what Fluther tried to mold itself to be. Instead of saying this and that, I was open-minded and went looking for the answers from secular science however it landed. I wonder how many other people (not you) can step up and do the same?

@whitenoise A bone fide case of intentional ignorance.
I guess it is when one doesn’t want to believe their own scientist when the data can’t be manipulated to say what they want it to say and how.

whitenoise's avatar

@hypo – I was referring to your insistence on using incorrect English.

To me, the underlying discussion seems to be a mere pretense to spew bigotry. I didn’t want to get involved in that one.

wildpotato's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central No, what I wrote above is not directed at you, because I have no interest in engaging with you.

@all other than HC – I’m really curious, why bother with this? Has HC ever listened, let alone changed his mind? Does it seem to you as though these questions are really meant for self-edification…or is he just trying to provoke? Also – and I’ll say one thing to you here, HC, which is that I apologize for this statement if you are a stroke survivor or not a native speaker/writer of English – his writing is, and his “arguments” are, almost unintelligible. Why engage with this willfully ignorant and childish trolling? I’d compare it to beating one’s head against a brick wall, except that the wall can’t get encouraged by your efforts. I know, we all get on Fluther because we’re bored – but I submit to you that your boredom is better spent elsewhere.

LostInParadise's avatar

The emotions are running high on both sides, but there is a reasonable question underneath all this rubble. Are there cases where some animals of another species mate exclusively with members of the same sex? Of particular interest would be if this holds true of females since, generally speaking, females are more selective of who they mate with.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@wildpotato […his writing is, and his “arguments” are, almost unintelligible.
Oh, SNAP! You mean in order to have people avoid these nebulous questions that doesn’t make sense I have to be more nebulous? For questions people can’t seem to understand they keep coming back for whatever reason, if I were a diner it would be as if they say they hate the meal but keep sitting in my booths waiting for a waitress to take their order. Preach it louder, if you do not want to answer, can’t understand, or don’t like the question, ignore it please do tell them that, I have said so much over the years but they don’t listen to me, maybe they will hear you.

Why engage with this willfully ignorant and childish trolling?
To ask a question about what was said is trolling if it questions what was said any way other than positive. The statement was made that there are gay animals, and that science supports it. I look and I can’t find anything that says there are, only animals that exhibit gay characteristics. So to ask for evidence that is not in the same city but on the actual street if not the exact address is trolling, why because no one can find the address or because they can’t, might expose the address never existed? What has been found has added little what I have already found, it just says the same thing written different.

[…because I have no interest in engaging with you.
I am compelled to ask, you know who started this thread right? Then why are you here if you have no interest to engage anything I have to say, aren’t you going against your own suggestion to others?

@LostInParadise [..but there is a reasonable question underneath all this rubble.
People would rather question the question than ponder the question. The basics of the question is this:

• Someone in the past makes a case for the LGTB society by saying there are gay animals, animals are in nature, therefore nature supports gayness (but it is not about that)
• To support the claim, look to secular science, not one leaning to any faith or religion.
• I seek to investigate these secular reports and writings to see if they indeed definitively agree that there are segments of species that are gay not just appearing gay.
• I can’t read everything or search every nook of the Web so I ask if anyone has found something I have not to answer this question.

That is the basic premise reduced to the ridiculous. Show me a scientific paper where the scientist say this species have gay animals, not simply the same of what I have found in that there are many species where gay activity is exhibited but the animals are not clinically or exclusively gay.

Response moderated (Off-Topic)
Response moderated (Off-Topic)
Response moderated (Off-Topic)
longgone's avatar

[Mod says]: Moved to Social with OP’s permission. All responses relevant to the question have been restored.

cazzie's avatar

Saying that you want proof of animals displaying homosexual behavior and then arguing that animals don’t display sexual behavior like we humans do, so to try to portray animals as homosexual is anthropomorphous is disingenuous.

You have a loop in your own logic if you think this you are asking an honest question.

You have been given many many examples of animals exhibiting homosexual behaviour. The lizards are NOT of them. They are an example of something else. Homosexual behaviour is not about pro-creation. It is about finding a companion with which to share one’s life with and spend time with and occasionally, but not always, sharing sexual experiences with. This might be shocking to some, but homosexuality isn’t always about sex.

rojo's avatar

You still did not answer my question regarding exactly what you are calling for in a bona fide homosexual animal. If it is too hard to define, perhaps if you can just describe what an animal would have to do in order to fit your definition?
I think, to paraphrase Potter Stewart, that you don’t know what a bona fide homosexual animal is but that you would know one if you saw one. Is that correct?

Dutchess_III's avatar

Um. A “bona fide” homosexual animal would be the last of its lineage, I would think, and probably hard to spot. This is all too confusing.

janbb's avatar

@Dutchess_III As I pointed out, way up there.^^^

This appears to be a fairly pointless question.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@cazzie Saying that you want proof of animals displaying homosexual behavior and then arguing that animals don’t display sexual behavior like we humans do, so to try to portray animals as homosexual is anthropomorphous is disingenuous.
No, that is not it, you failed to read the question thoroughly. Maybe there is something I missed Googling, if you have a report, scientific paper, etc. that points out a true bona fide homosexual species, not merely one that shows homosexual behavior do you have a link to it? How can that be any clearer? Merely acting homosexual was not a part of the answer. The answer was any animal biologist were saying is homosexual, apart from just having the behavior of one. You must have missed that part of the question.

@rojo You still did not answer my question regarding exactly what you are calling for in a bona fide homosexual animal. If it is too hard to define, perhaps if you can just describe what an animal would have to do in order to fit your definition?
I thought I did, but let me digress and reduce it even further; bona fide homosexual animal would be one who overrides innate natural traits to procreate with the opposite sex even when there are fertile females available or even when they go into heat they reject being mounted by males of the species. That make it clearer?

rojo's avatar

Yes, thank you.

cazzie's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central bona fide homosexual animal would be one who overrides innate natural traits to procreate with the opposite sex even when there are fertile females available or even when they go into heat they reject being mounted by males of the species.

By that definition the penguins in my post are certainly just one example. Also, we don’t know exactly what animal’s ‘innate natural traits’ are. I’m sure no animals have gone extinct because of excessive homosexual behavior. Evolution doesn’t have to be perfect in its results. Not every pairing leads to pregnancy or a successful offspring that reaches adulthood. It needs to work just well enough and it does. Not all individual animals have to breed for the success of the species.

Do you think that animals don’t enjoy the feelings and sensations related to sexual behavior and that they do it, or should NOT do it (human value judgement) for any other reason than for pro-creation? You are wrong. Animals use their sex organs for the fun of it. Just like humans do. (or is it the other way around?)

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150206-are-there-any-homosexual-animals

http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/so-it-turns-out-giraffes-are-gayest-animal-planet231014

So, humans and domestic sheep are two clear cut examples of animals who pair exclusively with the same sex.

LostInParadise's avatar

I am trying to be as objective as possible on this question. The BBC article concludes, So LeVay and Vasey still say that humans are the only documented case of “true” homosexuality in wild animals.

Other animals are bisexual and may form a pair bond with a member of the same sex if there is a shortage of the opposite sex, but it seems that humans are the only ones where some prefer to mate with a member of the same sex.

Whether or not other animals are homosexual has no bearing on the acceptability of homosexual behavior among humans. Other animals do not read and write. That does not mean that reading and writing are bad. Infanticide is common among animals, but that does not sanction infanticide among humans.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@LostInParadise Other animals are bisexual and may form a pair bond with a member of the same sex if there is a shortage of the opposite sex, but it seems that humans are the only ones where some prefer to mate with a member of the same sex.
Thank you for being objective and focusing on the facts sans emotions. I will go on record and say too many people are fueled by their emotions even in lieu of facts by science which they laud. OI went after this mystery by way of neutral scientist, not any that had a faith slant, or through Christian media, I wanted as pure unadulterated facts as I could find.

Other animals do not read and write. That does not mean that reading and writing are bad. Infanticide is common among animals, but that does not sanction infanticide among humans.
So true, I will again go on record to say many people try to use certain behavior of animals to shore up their claims rejecting those which doesn’t. Cherry picking which animal traits or attributes bolster some human condition is a slippery slope because it can cut both ways, if you try that then infanticide or males having many wives or even taking wives from other men if they can physically beat them down or best them would also be acceptable.

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