Social Question

jca's avatar

What do you think about the two shootings of black men (St. Paul and Baton Rouge) and the resulting protest in Dallas with 11 cops shot, 5 fatally?

Asked by jca (35976points) July 8th, 2016

Thoughts? Ideas?

What do you think?

Alton Sterling in Baton Rouge and Philando Castile in St. Paul. Both on video, all over the news and social media.

I admit I have not been reading up on it a whole lot, but did view the videos yesterday and then saw the police protest in Dallas with the cops shot (2 as of the time I went to bed last night, 11 upon wakeup with 5 dead).

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96 Answers

ragingloli's avatar

I can not say that I feel too sorry for the pigs.

JLeslie's avatar

I only know the MN story. When I saw the video I wondered how the cop knew the man had a gun? Did he know? My friends who carry tell the police right away when they are pulled over. It seemed like a misunderstanding maybe. The girlfriend said her boyfriend (the man who was shot and killed) was reaching for his ID, because the cop asked for it. The cop seemed to be saying he didn’t want the guy to take his hands out of plain sight. We don’t have video from before the shooting, that would really help. Unless maybe there is video not released?

jca's avatar

I had similar thoughts, @JLeslie. The girlfriends said he had a carry permit and had a gun, and she said “he was just getting his license and registration, sir” to the cop. Not sure what the cop knew but I was thinking if they told him put his hands up and he said he had a gun, and then was reaching in his pocket….. but I didn’t see why they had to shoot him 4 times. I admit I don’t know much about it.

Seek's avatar

I’m absolutely gobsmacked that a police officer would shoot into a vehicle when there was a child in the back seat of the car. That is unconscionable negligence.

jca's avatar

Good point, @Seek. I’m going to call a cop I know later and ask him what their training teaches them about that, if at all.

JLeslie's avatar

The four shots really bother me too.

I just feel sure we don’t know the entire story.

I question if the gun was in plain sight? Did the victim tell the officer he had a gun? Or, was there a gun there to see and that’s how the officer knew? Why is the girlfriend mentioning the carry license? That to me implied everyone could see the gun, and she was saying there was a license for the gun.

Seek's avatar

1: Cops are trained to empty the weapon. Of course they’re also trained to only use the weapon in extreme circumstances. Whatever.

2. I have many friends who are CCP holders. When they get pulled over (it happens to all of us), they roll down the window, put their hands on the steering wheel, and say to the officer “My name is ____, I am a concealed carry permit holder. My pistol is on my right hip. It is loaded and the safety is on. I have a .410 shotgun unloaded with a box of shells in the trunk because my daughter and I are on our way to the gun range. My registration and insurance card are in the glove compartment. What would you like me to do?”

Of course, that friend is a white dude with a whiter beard with a strong Southern accent.

if he were young and black he wouldn’t get halfway through that speech.

My friend who is a paralegal and a CCP holder and a black woman is terrified right now.

JLeslie's avatar

@Seek That’s exactly what my friends say they do. That spiel you just wrote out. They also are Southern and white though. One of my friends commented on Facebook about it. She didn’t slant her comment towards the cop or the victim, just stated what she does and that she is shaken by what happened.

Pachy's avatar

@ragingloli, I wonder if you would repeat your comment directly to the Dallas policemen’s wives and kids and parents???

The anachronistic 225-year old Second Amendment has made us an armed-and-dangerous society, which will only continue to get more armed and more dangerous.

stanleybmanly's avatar

The cops were paranoid. And there is justification for their paranoia. The thing that is totally unjustified is the focus of that paranoia on black men. We’re in for what amounts to a great adventure, and that adventure is about the realities of law enforcement in a land awash in weaponry. There’s a not so subtle consequence that is missed by the NRA and all of those devotees of the 2nd amendment so passionately devoted to the concept of an armed citizenry. It’s only a matter of time until the non white population feels compelled to embrace the “gotta have one” notion with the same fervor as themselves. When the black, Latino and Asian gun shows begin to mushroom, it will be interesting to watch the reaction. Gun sales are at record levels and accelerating. And no one knows how many illegal guns trade hands for every one sold above board. But it’s a safe bet the numbers are depressingly large. The 11 cops shot in Texas are a really grim portent of what’s to come. It’s just so easy, and growing easier with each passing day. So what smart man or woman will be so silly as to consider a career in law enforcement? I suppose the yearnings of those with nostalgia for the “good ol days” will rejoice at the return of a Wild West updated with automatic weapons.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

Cops are prejudice by nature, it’s usually occupationally acquired and it’s not completely their fault.
That said when a traffic stop ends with innocent people getting killed then the whole legitimacy of the protect and serve mantra comes into question. I know people who are cops that I respect and others that are and really should not be. Those are in the majority.
The one time I was pulled over while carrying I told him first thing and he did not seem to give two shits. I was a white male driving a nice truck though. Not sure if I had been poor and black if it would have been different or not. I don’t have the same respect for police like I do for EMT, firefighters and other public servive workers.

elbanditoroso's avatar

Two observations:

1. The Dallas snipers showed organization, planning, and motivation. The shootings by the police showed randomness and fear. In my opinion, it should be the other way around.

2. The NRA must be thrilled.

ucme's avatar

I think what I always do when high profile shootings occur there, “America…truly fucked up country”

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

Meh, I still feel safer here than just about anywhere else in the world.

Pied_Pfeffer's avatar

1. That the US culture has a long way to go before achieving a lack of bigotry.
2. That until the US moves in the direction of effective gun control, the unnesserary shootings will continue.

syz's avatar

I think our country needs to stop ignoring the root causes of our problems: inequality, poverty, an unfair justice system and a for-profit prison system, the NRA/gun culture, an unequal education system, and systemic racism.

kritiper's avatar

I can’t speak to the shooting by police, only that anyone shooting police in response is most likely an anarchist who is trying to start something.

kritiper's avatar

@syz Ignoring the root causes is not the problem, not knowing what to do about them, and/or not wanting to get involved, is.

SecondHandStoke's avatar

I have not encountered one of these law enforcement officer killing, “black” warriors yet.

If I do, it will be a challenge for me to bite my tongue regarding (at the very least, my annoyance) that I am forced to live in this sort of world.

On the other side: Police departments should be required to employ military rules of engagement.

It would seem that Charles Manson’s prediction of a race war was correct.

SecondHandStoke's avatar

@Seek :

“If he were young and black he wouldn’t get halfway through that speech.”

Oh really?

As is always the case, it’s not what you do, It’s how you do it.

Showing respect doesn’t just make you a better person, it can make you one that’s still breathing.

Espiritus_Corvus's avatar

I think that any sympathy that victims of cop violence have recently been shown from the Right has just evaporated.

Seek's avatar

Victim blaming rawks

rojo's avatar

Still absorbing it all. More comments to come as information becomes available.

BellaB's avatar

I think I understand less about the US every day. So very sad.

imrainmaker's avatar

That’s horrible..both shootings..

DoNotKnowMuch's avatar

What do I think? I don’t know. But I know that you’d have to be in a coma to not be an emotional mess after watching the Philandro Castile murder and Alton Sterling’s 15-year-old son break down.

@SecondHandStoke – Do you really feel that the appropriate response is providing lessons to the black community on how to not get killed by police? “What was she wearing?” is never the right question.

dappled_leaves's avatar

@DoNotKnowMuch Agreed.

Also, I would like very much to stop hearing how important the 2nd Amendment is to Americans. If the reason for every American to have a constitutional right to a gun is justification that one day they may have to protect themselves from armed authorities, then why is it that black Americans are murdered by those authorities on the barest suspicion that they hold those weapons? Why is there now outrage when cops are killed for murdering black people without cause? Isn’t the whole point of the 2nd Amendment for people to be able to defend themselves against this kind of onslaught? Why is anyone horrified, now that this expectation is being fulfilled?

I mean, even in a thought experiment, one can see how stupid and contradictory the 2nd Amendment is. So now we’ll be able to add real life observation to that. Terrific.

jca's avatar

I think a good lesson for anyone is when the cop says put your hands up, you put your hands up. When he says put your hands where I can see them, you comply. As I said I don’t know much about these shootings but it seems all too common now. Eric Garner in NYC who died from a choke hold – when the cops said put your hands up he started flailing around saying “don’t arrest me, don’t arrest me” or something similar. Maybe the one in Minnesota made it known he had a gun, he then wanted to reach into his pocket to get his ID. Maybe – just a guess from the little I do know about it.

elbanditoroso's avatar

@dappled_leaves – the second amendment only applies to white people. Or at least that is how it is interpreted.

rojo's avatar

@elbanditoroso evidently, Here is an article of the same title from August 2014

JLeslie's avatar

White people die too. I don’t argue that black people seem more at risk to be harmed by the police, because of prejudice, but there are plenty of stories of white people. One problem is too often the cops don’t care or don’t listen the person being arrested. Like the guy who died I think in TN or MS (I don’t remember which state) who was drunk and said he couldn’t breath in the position the cops put him in when arresting him. The cops basically allowed him to suffocate to death. It was disgusting. The man was just drunk and out of control.

filmfann's avatar

I am horrified by all these incidents.
The police have an insanely difficult job. As in any job, some are not very good at it. That is no reason to start shooting all of them.
These people who are being shot by the police, who seem to be complying, are also quite distressing to me. That said, if someone has a baby in the back seat, that cannot stop a policeman from protecting himself if someone in the car has a gun, and threatens the officer, or anyone else. Imagine people carrying children in the back seat of a car just so they can get away with shit like that.
Wouldn’t happen? Consider the Isis and Al Jezzera fighters who put their weapons near schools and hospitals, knowing that if they are destroyed, they can blame Allied forces for civilian casualties.

Strauss's avatar

@filmfann Isn’t Al Jezzera a news organization? I could be wrong, butI don’t think they have an armed contingent.

rojo's avatar

^^ probably meant Al-Qaeda.

jca's avatar

What I’m getting from a cop that I know is that if the police officer on the scene feels his life is in danger (which presumably why he would be pulling his gun in the first place), whether there’s a child in the car is secondary to him feeling his life is in danger.

dappled_leaves's avatar

The discussion of what should be done when a police officer feels his life is in danger is not actually the issue here. The issue is that police officers feel that their lives are in danger whenever they are confronting a black person. That is a problem with their perception, it is not a reflection of reality.

janbb's avatar

I think it is very important not to tar the whole Black Lives Matter movement with the Dallas killings. Apparently, it was s peaceful demonstration for hours before the mad sniper showed up.

The horrific Dallas murders of policemen does not justify or excuse the murder of Black men disproportionately than whites by policemen.

jca's avatar

@dappled_leaves: I know. My point was that if the cop knew the guy had a gun and then the guy was reaching in his pockets, maybe…..

dappled_leaves's avatar

@jca I have absolutely no reason to give the cop the benefit of the doubt in this situation. It astounds me that people are reaching for that kind of explanation, no less than the incredible suggestion by @filmfann that the man’s child might have been a decoy. With as many examples of this type of shooting as we have, why are people not giving the victim the benefit of the doubt instead? He’s already been robbed of everything else.

It probably was exactly what it looks like. A cop being terrified of a black man because he was a black man, and “protecting his life” against a threat that did not exist.

jca's avatar

@dappled_leaves: You may be right. I’m just speculating.

Seek's avatar

The Dallas killings showed planning, training, and motivation.

The murder-by-cop shootings showed fear and impulse.

These two situations should have been reversed.

Response moderated (Spam)
elbanditoroso's avatar

@seek – I couldn’t have said it better myself. (see earlier post)

Seek's avatar

snort

Sorry, I must have subconsciously stolen that from you.

YARNLADY's avatar

According to most reports I have seen, police kill more white people than blacks, but when looked at by percentage of white people to black, the difference changes.

DrasticDreamer's avatar

I think, as sad and horrifying as all of it is, it’s not at all surprising. You cannot have cops indiscriminately killing black men without having people just as crazy on the opposite spectrum not retaliate. That does not make it okay, but no intelligent person should be shocked by this. Practically none of the cops get punished in any way and more and more people are getting pissed off because of it. You can only push people around for so long before they push back. It’s not the answer, it’s not okay, but it’s obvious.

olivier5's avatar

What happened in Dallas was predictable, and will keep happening as long as black folk will get killed by white policemen for naughts. But they shouldn’t kill just ANY cop. They should target the actual murderers among the police force, those who killed innocent people and usually get away with murder.

For all we know, maybe they killed the most decent and honest cops in the Dallas PD. That’s not justice, not by a long strech.

filmfann's avatar

I did indeed mean Al-Qaeda. Sorry for the confusion.

Brain damage is a bitch.

SecondHandStoke's avatar

@DoNotKnowMuch

I honestly don’t see how what you said to me applies to my post.

“What she was wearing.” Wut??

olivier5's avatar

^ it means: Don’t blame the victim.

MrGrimm888's avatar

The way minorites are treated by police in this country ( NOT all police) is complete bullshit. They simply HAVE to find a better way of interacting with them and dealing with these situations without resorting to gun 1st mentality. I know that many officers , when receiving weapons training, are taught to put multiple rounds in a target quickly, almost by reflex, if the target poses a threat. This thinking was intended to save an officers life , because sometimes they have the disadvantage of not knowing a person of interest may be armed. It’s easier for other countries to see this as odd, because guns aren’t as prevalent in most societies. Here in America there are hundreds of millions of guns in circulation, some legal, some not. In impoverished areas, one can buy one in a back alley for cheap. That weapon may have been used by multiple people, to kill multiple people, each time after the killing, being resold. Police respond to situations that could appear safe, but go sideways quickly. Part of their training is to ALWAYS keep their ‘gun hand’ free. Again, the thinking is, they might have to draw and open fire in an instant. The time aloted for officers to make a thoughtful, complete evaluation is simply not there sometimes. An officer has to potentially save their own life in each call they respond to. I don’t envy their job. New training guidelines are being set forth to try to minimize these situations where an innocent person is injured or killed. Ironically, Dallas was one of the first departments to implement this new training.
The bottom line is that it’s a probability issue. When using a gun to respond to a situation in reflex, these incidents will occur. For x amount of times an officer is put in a situation where a quick , stressful decision is required with weapon in hand, y amount of mistakes will happen.
Using better training, and ‘less lethal’ weapons more could help. I’ve thought in the past that officers shouldn’t have guns on them, only tazers, clubs , and mace. But it’s hard to justify that when the guy in the truck they just pulled might have a shotgun in his lap…

In addition, I feel it is relevant to admit that some minorites need to act different when interacting with police. I’ve personally seen countless interactions where a subject is belidgerent and uncooperative from the beginning of the interaction. Some officers deal with it better than others.Bottom line, when the police are interacting with you, you should cooperate, and move slowly. The officer has no idea if you are armed or just left the scene of a homicide. I’m a big guy who looks like an extra on Sons of Anarchy. I often have a pistol in my car. I keep my hands in plain site at all times when dealing with police. I only reach for something after asking them ie ‘may I reach for my license? ’ I understand that I am bigger and stonger than most police officers, and they may be intimidated by me. So when interacting with cops , I don’t give them a reason to mistake any of my actions as a threat. Usually when pulled , they put me in cuffs or in the back of the squad car while questioning takes place. It seems like a little much. But they eventually let me go after brief detainment. If I acted like some people I’ve seen , no doubt I probably would have been shot.

In addition, police must admit that some officers do not have the mindset to be a police officer. Some are power hungry assholes, who take any excuse to assert their ‘dominance.’ Others ‘want’ action. They want to shoot it out one day. They like the adrenaline. Those officers who consider themselves a good officer don’t report that type of behavior enough.

I hope one day this crap stops. But I’m not optimistic.

As far as the Dallas thing. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Shame on the individual who hypocritically hurts another, just because of their profession, or skin color. That’s what the protest was about to begin with.
Come on….

stanleybmanly's avatar

Underneath all of this is the really chilling possibility that just as the black community claims, there is nothing exceptional about these shootings of black men. What if it has been going on nation wide since the Emancipation Proclamation? There is a somber but compelling case that this is EXACTLY what’s been going on and probably at a scale that dwarfs current cell phone discoveries. As I said before, the police forces in this country are in a tough spot, because what has really happened is that the true unspoken role of the police in our society regarding black men is being exposed for what it actually amounts to. It isn’t much discussed, but the traditional and unofficial role of cops in America is to regulate or “sit on” black folks. Every black man in this country knows the consequences of being caught “walking in the wrong part of town” or driving a car that ” no negro can afford”. When police departments controlled the narrative on the appalling number of black men shot while “resisting arrest”, each incident merely reinforced the stereotype of black men as particularly dangerous. The police were regarded as valiant in their duty to “serve and protect” and black folks “knew their place and stayed there”.

olivier5's avatar

@stanleybmanly It isn’t much discussed, but the traditional and unofficial role of cops in America is to regulate or “sit on” black folks

What Stan said.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Stanleybmanly. I disagree with you for once…I assure you that there aren’t police morning meetings, where the captain says, ‘ok let’s go kill some ni@@ers.’
I really don’t care much for the police. But I have worked closely with them in several places I have worked(as a bouncer or SLED officer.) Sometimes working with narcotics units, and sometimes with just plain city cops. They are, like most work places, a rounded bunch. There are good cops, bad cops, racist cops, sexist cops, action/adrenaline junky cops etc. But the is no ‘prime directive ’ to ‘intentionally’ harm the black community in today’s America. There is however, a lack of a realistic plan for how to deal , logistically with crime ridden areas. I’m speaking of poverty. What many seem to not get, is that the common thread in most ‘negative’ interactions with police occur because impoverished regions are allowed to fester. The strategy in many large cities is to simply fence in these neighborhoods. Keep the crime in. I’ve spoken to some officers who have the impression that their department has simply given up on certain areas in their jurisdictions. They don’t go in, and most inhabitants of these communities work there, so they rarely leave. The neighborhoods are essentially left to their own devices…Deemed hopeless with current resources, and funding. In these areas, minorites are the majority. But all races suffer from poverty. Black and brown get the worst of the mistreatment because they are over represented in these communities. And no doubt frustrated with their lives.The real way to ‘fix’ violence in these areas is to fix the problem, poverty. Other ways to reduce crime would be police presence. In NY city, they put two cops on every corner at one point. That’s what it took.

Moving on, let’s say you live in a middle class neighborhood. And one day you see a person driving a $2,000,000 car , with bright paint and loud music. Would you not assume this person was either not from your area, or using different means to aquire their money? If my neighbor pulled in next door to me with a new car, with big rims, and thumping bass, after driving a 87 Buick, yeah, I think they might be not just working a job at the local store. No matter how wrong it is, some profiling has merrit…As I said, I fall victim to profiling as well, because of my appearance. It sucks, but somewhere, there are many men who look just like me who are in MCs , and traffic narcotics, and firearms. I hate the way minorites are treated by police. But I hear a lot of people who are talking about the problem, without a realistic solution…

What’s my opinionon all this OP? It’s a total CLUSTER FUCK. Currently there is no quick fix. Race relations should be a past problem in America. I hope those who consider this the greatest nation on Earth can honestly say it hasn’t really overcome it’s own demons yet. And certainly has no business throwing their hat in the ring when it comes to humanitarian treatment of people in other countries. We have a lot of work to do right here…

MrGrimm888's avatar

Can’t believe that I was sticking up for cops….Uugh…

stanleybmanly's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I’m not saying that police departments openly plan or even understand the reality of their function in the suppression of black people, or for that matter the subtle truth on actual police priorities in the society at large. Stop and reflect for a second on just who it is in this society the police “serve and protect” the most. It is no coincidence that it is those with the most stuff to protect who are “served” best. In view of this, it then becomes a simple matter to guess which people in our society can be shot in the line of duty with the fewest consequences to a cop’s career. Imagine the response to a call from a black man about a suspicious looking white man walking through his neighborhood for instance. What I’m talking about is the fact that cops are about enforcing more than laws on the books. They’re about enforcing local mores, habits and prejudices. Policing is both a political job and an adjunct in supporting the distribution of power.

MrGrimm888's avatar

1st off, stanleybmanly, you should re name yourself ‘Stanleybearticulate.’
You are a master of painting with the English language .Your rhetorical content is of value regardless of topic , usually, and thoughtful, and compassionate, with realistic attempts at not just beating a dead horse, but some attempts at a solution. Thank you.
Again, however, you miss my intended illumination of the fact that poverty is the root cause of America’s race problem.
If these people weren’t impoverished, they would not be stereotyped, and /or profiled.
Some people, in some of these neighborhoods, grow up with nothing. Then they see some people with nice cars, jewelry, FOOD, and women, who make a good living in an illegal way as ‘making it.’ Thusly, these people have ,in some cases (in their minds ) the notion that this lifestyle is glamorous, and attractive. Some of these dealers came from nothing, and now they have it all. So, in an impoverished neighborhood, you can work minimum wage and truely hate your life, or make exponentially more (tax free) by doing something illegal, and not want for much.

Uh. Guess I’m gonna kinda quote 2Pac (not verbatim ) there should be a war on poverty, not drugs. (Some things will never change ,most easily accessible on his two disk greatest hits album )

Even more off topic. That’s why Elvis died. He was raised very poor . Once he got money , he bought gold rings and necklaces, and essentially ate himself to death. Poor people build our roads, fight in our military,fix our cars and homes, do the worst jobs for the lowest pay, live in the most violent places, and have the lowest quality of life. Fix that, and we won’t have to fix the police…...

ibstubro's avatar

My immediate reaction was that the killing of a bunch of cops was inevitable.

Wringing your hands and paying lip service to the injustice of cops killing young black men almost daily only gets you so far.

I’m sorry it happened, and I certainly don’t condone it, but I think the cop killings were just a matter of time.

SecondHandStoke's avatar

@olivier5

Ahh, victim blaming…

There’s a term for it so it must be applicable in every possible situation.

Nope.

I link an article describing an individual behaving appropriately in a potentially difficult situation. This person was considerate of the other person’s responsibilities, fears, expectations, experiences. But nobody gives a shit. We’ll just throw it in the bin labeled “Victim Blaming” instead. Sad.

I wasn’t victim blaming, I was potential victim advising.

Hardly the same thing.

Accusations of victim blaming: Great for upvotes.

@MrGrimm888

You say that poverty is to blame.

Incorrect, it is poor decisions made by individuals that are the root of the problem.

Seek's avatar

Poor decisions like not being born white, and not being born into a wealthy family or otherwise striking it rich.

Clearly.

olivier5's avatar

@MrGrimm888 It seems easier to fix the police force than to wipe out poverty. Fire the trigger-happy ones, lock the murderers in jail, retrain the rest, hire more minorities… It doesn’t seem undoable. Getting rid of poverty is much harder.

Beside, poverty is also a result of oppression. It’s not just a matter of money, it’s about rights.

SecondHandStoke's avatar

@Seek

You have drunk deep from the Kool-Aid of non-responsibility.

We will not change each others minds.

There are many, many persons far wealthier than I. I do not use this as an excuse to justify a decision to engage in anti-social, non indicated or illegal behavior.

Thanks to the incompetence of the Federal government my generation is FUCKED. Too bad, so sad they seem to say. “Financially yours is a rebuilding generation.” I’ll likely never be as financially secure as my father. Yet for some reason you don’t find me training a rifle scope on a peace officer.

“Striking it rich.” Your choice of words gives you away. The concept of choosing one’s path does not even occur to you. To you, a person is never responsible, whether they find success or a bullet in the back.

What else can I say?

olivier5's avatar

^^ To you, a person is never responsible
Are you saying that the cops killing innocent folk should be held accountable for their crimes?

SecondHandStoke's avatar

^ Does that not logically follow?

I’ve already expressed above that police agencies should be made to follow military rules of engagement. Far fewer accidents would occur. This sort of gross misbehavior should be tried in a venue other than the one with the same DA as those cops work with day in and day out.

I lived among the NYPD for 9 years. This is a paramilitary corps that operates with impunity, with then Bloomberg as their general. Stunningly unconstitutional policies such as Stop-And-Frisk were in effect. Totally unacceptable. I kept my cool and survived.

In the case of the NYPD all individuals were responsible, from top to bottom. District Attorneys are responsible, judges are responsible. If it comes to such, juries are responsible.

olivier5's avatar

The US military protects their own too.

Send a few murderous cops to serious time in jail and the whole atmosphere will change. Right now they seem to feel above the law.

SecondHandStoke's avatar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_engagement

Yes, the military handles it’s own problems, and for good reason.

Fuck up in the military and your sentence will not be something to consider casually.

stanleybmanly's avatar

now THAT IS poignant. And explains precisely the “necessity” for the increasing militarization of the police. There is a growing realization on the part of those who own the country on the requirement for protection from those who both made it possible and suffer the deprivations required to achieve it.

olivier5's avatar

Thoughts from Chief Sjolander, from Kenyon (MN)

If I was your chief…

https://m.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10154323790264764&id=166558279763:

stanleybmanly's avatar

@MrGrimm888 & @olivier5 What if it is the poverty itself that is being enforced?

olivier5's avatar

^ Exactly.

SecondHandStoke's avatar

@Seek

Being “white” is a decision?

Seek's avatar

@SecondHandStoke – you might want to check the batteries in your sarcasm detector.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Here we go. Seek, nice…
SHS, you usually have such short answers…Apparently this topic strikes a nerve. Perhaps we will learn something about you now. Like your lack of empathy. I hope your life goes well, so you don’t have to figure out how hard it really is to be poor, in a crime ridden community ignored by the police, and government…
I’m sure you think you could just work your way out. I’m not trying to put words in your mouth, but you seem to share a common mindset with reality detached Republicans. ‘Poor people are poor because they’re too lazy to work to become a millionaire, ’ is a view you could agree with while dining with Trump. Toast to your success, you superior gentlemen. You may have stepped on many decent people to get where you are, but you still aren’t on any higher ground.
You may think you are cut from different cloth, but trust me, if the power goes out for a month in this country, you’ll find a lot of common ground with your fellow humans.
Stanleybmanly, I don’t think ‘enforced’ is the best word. But it’s hard not to see that the rich take great measures to keep themselves rich , and on top. Where they believe they belong.

I’ve said it before. Poor people don’t need rich people. Rich people need poor people. The poor protect the country, build its roads, harvest and cook it’s food, clean, and provide pretty much every service available. If poor people all died today, the rich would be FUCKED. If all the uber wealthy died today, the poor would be fine. It’s a shame they are treated so ‘poorly.’

ibstubro's avatar

You see, my personality is such that I can only stand to bitch and moan about stuff I feel is within my realm of influence for so long, and then I feel bound to take action. I have a very localized idea of my realm of influence. Yeah, I once got the local city council to threaten to start arresting the local paper carriers for delivering the “free” version of the local paper.

I’ve not been trained in military weaponry weapons of any kind, formally, actually but I can almost understand where the Dallas shooter was coming from.
Take the training your country as given you, and turn it against the perpetrators of genocide in that country.

History will decide the Dallas police shooter’s fate.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Ibstubro, I can understand your frustration, and your brave admission of relation with the shooters motivation. Demonstrations (I’ve attended some) have clearly not been effective. But this type of random killing, and disregard for the lives of those in the surrounding area of the targets is NOT the answer. He could have easily killed dozens of his own people. Women, children, teachers , priests, students etc by opening fire in a crowd with an assault rifle. We’re lucky hundreds weren’t trampled running from the gunfire. History may decide his fate, but I think he’s a coward, and a hypocrit.
Did he think this action would make police see black people as less violent? WTF? This behavior only sets the process of equal treatment back. FAR back. We’re trying to tell the cops they shouldn’t feel so threatened by black people. Then one goes and does this. How many black people will be accidentally or wrongly shot now? This incident was a pathetic example of how stupidity breeds stupidity. These acts of terrorism hold no place in a democracy. The legit process is frustrating, but the lesser of two evils.
Peace n love.

ibstubro's avatar

I think he probably saw himself as the catalyst for change, @MrGrimm888.
Right, wrong, or indifferent.

Sad.

SecondHandStoke's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Thanks. At least someone is reading my posts and attempting to understand them.

“Lack of empathy.”

Empathy…

There’s no proof in my comments that I am incapable of seeing things for the perspective of another. It’s possible that you and others are assuming that my (gasp) different point of view means I can see no other.

While on the subject of assumptions: All manner of assumptions are being made about me: My skin color, my economic status, my social status (yes, these have been listed separately on purpose) etc.

It looks like we all see a problem. Looks like we all want a solution.

I’m simply stating that, in my opinion this OBSESSION with social “groups” isn’t compatible with the simplest, cheapest, quickest and most effective course of action.

jca's avatar

From the New York Times, re: shooting into a car with a child in it (discussion way up above):

In a vacuum, it isn’t natural to pre-emptively shoot people to death, just as, in a vacuum, it isn’t natural to keep your gun trained on a person who has been rendered incapacitated and is bleeding out before you. This is specialized behavior, the sort expected from military forces entering unfamiliar war zones. Soldiers are trained to consider everyone and everything a potential threat, to neutralize any man, woman or child who could potentially cause them harm. The highest priorities are to protect themselves and to accomplish their mission, and that requires the trained dehumanization of the local population. In such an environment, the burden of not killing is lifted from the soldiers, and local people are tasked with the burden of not provoking death.”

Seek's avatar

A mechanic near my friend’s home in Minneapolis just announced over Facebook that his shop would be replacing taillights and license plate lights for free, indefinitely, because having a broken light should never be a reason to be murdered.

Post here

LostInParadise's avatar

I am late to this conversation, but I just found out that the Dallas police used a bomb robot to kill the shooter. This is a bit scary. Why not use a robot to disarm or pin down the shooter instead of killing him?

MrGrimm888's avatar

LIP, there aren’t currently any active duty robots capable of restraining a armed suspect. An AR-15 with AP/FMJ rounds would make short work of a robot anyway.
Cops don’t mess around with cop killers. Usually the suspect is killed in a hail of gunfire. This specific individual had no intention of being taken alive anyway. Once his day began, he had to know it would end with his demise.

ibstubro's avatar

In the discussion on NPR one day they were making a lot out of the cops killing the shooter. That it goes against our legal system – innocent until proved guilty, and/or the insanity defense.

While I believe the Dallas police acted rationally and properly, killing a suspect should give you a pause, IMO.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Well done , ibstubro.
Killing another human , or any animal IMO, should give you pause….
I kill if attacked, or fishing. Or if attacked by a gator while fishing…. Actually, I never killed one (gator) , but I’ve had some wild experiences with them.
Mainly l kill insects that attack, or attempt to feed on me. But I will let a fly lick my sweat on a hot day. It helps them get sodium. As long as they don’t bite me , they can hang for a bit.

Strauss's avatar

I haven’t watched much about these issues over the past couple days, (burn-out) but I do remember a Dallas PD spokesperson stating that it was a last resort situation. The subject would not speak to the negotiator, and he was considered an immediate threat to police officers and civilians in the area. There were a number of other specific factors that were considered before the decision was made: the shooter had made it known that his intention was to kill cops, specifically white cops; he was in a good defensive position to shoot anyone approaching him; his position was not accessible to a sniper, which would have been the preferred method; and due to the open nature of the building, the shock wave would dissipate with little, if any, structural damage.

ibstubro's avatar

I think we’d have to be terribly naive to believe that killing the shooter with an explosive device was the action of the Dallas police department alone.

It was an act of war, not of law enforcement.
The law was not enforced.
The situation was resolved by all means necessary and available.
Was it, I wonder, the first recorded incident of the US government using a drone to murder a US citizen on US soil? What is a drone, if not a robotic device?

I do realize that this is a sniper by another name, but it’s still a sobering thought.

A sniper is a marksman or qualified specialist who operates alone, in a pair, or with a sniper team to maintain close visual contact with the enemy and engage targets from concealed positions or distances.

Or a nut with a gun that mimics the “good guys” to kill cops at a rally.

MrGrimm888's avatar

I agree ibstubro. It was a warlike response. But the gentleman had a weapon of war and basically declared war on the Dallas PD. He messed with the bull. He got the horns. I normally am all about rights, but they couldn’t just let him keep killing people. I wonder if they had some form of ‘knock out gas’ that could have been used?

Regardless. I’m happy he was killed. Subsequent trials, and such of such a high profile person, just add to the ‘fame’ one can achieve by comiting such atrocities. I feel that some mass shooters feel unimportant and that the infamy and attention they receive is part of their motivation for such acts. The bigger the body count, the more the media talks about them, and shows their picture. ‘Glorifying’ the people who comit these acts is not productive. Obviously, the public is interested in these people’s motives, but if you want people to know who you are, and what your agenda is, go shoot some place up. That’s what we’re teaching these types of people by our reactions.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Well now guns in America are like orange on Trump and since it’s now established that the surest way to efffectively issue that “cry for attention” is to shoot up a crowd, we must all adjust to mass murder as the norm and definitely on the uptick. People will adapt to damned near anything.

Seek's avatar

Remember everyone: You need to simultaneously be armed at all times to defend yourself from Fellow Citizens who Surely Want To Invade Your Home and Rape Your Wife, and be unarmed whenever law enforcement happens to approach you, lest they Fear Their Lives, and Legitimately Defend Themselves.

Enjoy catching those 22s.

ibstubro's avatar

I said earlier @MrGrimm888, “I believe the Dallas police acted rationally and properly”.

I still believe there should be some hew and cry every time a tactic like this is used by law enforcement.
I think it’s more like that some sort of secret federal emergency response team was responsible for using a robotic bomb to kill the sniper. And I’d be a lot more comfortable with that. I’m not comfortable with local law enforcement having the ability to blow people up by remote control.

MrGrimm888's avatar

ibstubro. I think we’re I’m agreement on the majority of this issue. YES, quite disturbing, local law can blow us up. But they’ve long had access to military grade weapons. Weather he was shot by a sniper’s rifle, an assault rifle, or blown up, he’s just ad dead. Maybe the knowledge that they can just blow you up will be a deterrent to someone in the future. Probably not though.

Strauss's avatar

@ibstubro _I’m not comfortable with local law enforcement having the ability to blow people up by remote control.

Is there really a difference between that and a well-placed, well armed, well trained sniper?

ibstubro's avatar

Yes. @Yetanotheruser.
I believe there is.

Like the line between enforcing the law and being at war.
Enemy combatants and neighbors.
I think it’s the crux of the discussion.

Law enforcement can use methods learned in war, but using those methods should be rare, and undesirable.

Strauss's avatar

@ibstubro sing those methods should be rare, and undesirable.

Agreed. I would add, ”…and only to be used in extreme circumstances.” This was not a public execution of a convicted criminal sentenced by the courts. This was elimination of a clear and present threat to lives of anyone in the immediate area.

olivier5's avatar

@Seek Good point. It could get even more perverse. How about: “If a cop approaches me, I have good reasons to fear for my life, and can legitimately defend myself.” ?

IOW: “Don’t take a chance, shoot the cop before he shoots you”.

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