Social Question

thisismyusername's avatar

What are your thoughts on DACA?

Asked by thisismyusername (2935points) January 23rd, 2018

Thoughts?

Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

160 Answers

Mariah's avatar

I’m not as informed on immigration issues as I am on other types of political issues, but my understanding is that people who were granted DACA are all people who were brought over as children, know no other home, and have no criminal record here. Deporting them, then, seems incredibly cruel. They (and many other immigrants) should be given a path to citizenship rather than thrown out of the country.

chyna's avatar

“Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
Emma Lazarus
We should not forget.

elbanditoroso's avatar

I think it is incredibly cruel for the right wing to want to make these kids leave. It’s another example of slavish right wing adherence to the wacko wing, as opposed to humanity and decency. Oh, how the republicans have fallen.

And there is some doubt that the DACA kids are even ‘illegal’.

I won’t repeat all the facts about DACA kids and their histories. I will say that we as Americans have hit the lowest of low points if we throw them out.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^The dems are fighting for them at least. This isn’t as bad as it can get yet. I wonder what rock bottom will be like…

I can’t imagine deporting over 800,000 people. How do you rip a million people out of communities throughout the country, without hurting the country? I swear. It seems like the GOP doesn’t think anything through. They are apparently either stupid, or they really are a bunch of bigots. A billion mostly Muslim people are banned from the country. Now this. I don’t see how this isn’t rooted in racism, xenophobia, and ignorance…

As for the politicians playing with people’s lives. I just have to shake my head. It’s nothing new.

The conservatives are at all out war with everyone who isn’t a white Christian. The gloves are off…

thisismyusername's avatar

@MrGrimm888: “The dems are fighting for them at least. ”

Are they? They caved on the shutdown for a promise to discuss in the future. I’m wondering what it will take for the Dems to really stand up for something. I hope this is it.

Remember when the Dems staged that sit-in? What if they were to actually stand for something that was right? (The sit-in was an attempt to force a vote on their bill which would ban people on no-fly lists from purchasing guns. This support of an awful no-fly list and an attempt to limit the rights of those people even more was just a total embarrassment and very right-wing.)

I’m hoping the Dems realize that not only is the right thing to do – it’s very popular, according to polls. The Dems should go into these “negotiations” with actual demands, rather than their usual habit of showing up to the negotiation with a compromise.

@elbanditoroso: “I will say that we as Americans have hit the lowest of low points if we throw them out.”

Remember – the will of the people in every possible poll shows overwhelming support for a path to citizenship for the DREAMers. If this is rescinded, it’s a reflection of the poor quality of our democracy.

elbanditoroso's avatar

@thisismyusername – so why are the republican legislators not following the overwhelming sentiments of their electorate?

rojo's avatar

I am in favor of giving citizenship to those who fall into that category/

thisismyusername's avatar

@elbanditoroso: ”@thisismyusername – so why are the republican legislators not following the overwhelming sentiments of their electorate?”

You mean the 35% of the country that supports Trump, and likely supports burning the dreamers in a large fire on the White House lawn? I think it’s clear that they are. In a just world, the Republican party would be listed as a terrorist organization.

stanleybmanly's avatar

My attitude about illegal immigration boils down to this: Objectively I understand the requirement to set and enforce rules around entering and residing in this country. But I will in no way endorse the hounding or persecution of ANYONE behaving EXACTLY as I would were I in their shoes.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@thisismyusername . They are fighting as much as anyone. They don’t have much leverage. Keeping the government running is important. (Can’t believe I have to declare that.) Someone had to bend. The opponent with the least leverage did. Will they hold them to their word? I don’t know. I guess I was saying that they aren’t just alone versus the GOP/Trump. I don’t have much faith in the dems. But they are the only ones who can stop it, and they’re trying.

A compromise, is probably the best that could be hoped for. The dems can’t hold enough seats politically, to be more relevant. Now. The only defense they can muster was to drag their feet, and hope the GOP keeps their recent promises…

It’s sadly more than I thought the dems would do…

rojo's avatar

They have two weeks to get their shit together. If the Republicans renege on a DACA deal within the allotted period. Shut that fucker down again and make that fucker Trump do something other than tweet insults and gloats.

flutherother's avatar

America is home to these 800,000 young people and it is simply cruel and heartless to force them out of the country. Where are they going to go? To some country foreign to them where they don’t even speak the language? And why, what harm are these young people doing? It seems so unlike the America I have always known and yet so like Trump.

KNOWITALL's avatar

Not many people in my area would agree with any of you. If they are illegal, they are unwelcome. We have a lot of illegals with kids working in chicken factories and construction that are underbidding Americans so it causes bad feelings.

thisismyusername's avatar

@KNOWITALL: “We have a lot of illegals with kids working in chicken factories and construction that are underbidding Americans so it causes bad feelings.”

Could you elaborate here? Are undocumented immigrants “underbidding” citizens by accepting wages that are less than minimum wage?

KNOWITALL's avatar

In construction they just about cut the costs in half. Living in one apartment eating the same thing every day, some are great humans but many resent losing work. My husband worked with quite a few, very kind people but some in that industry see them as taking their jobs. Hard to elaborate on this phone but will explain better later on laptop.

KNOWITALL's avatar

The builders are saving money though, yes. If they get good crews.

thisismyusername's avatar

@KNOWITALL – It sounds as though your husband and the undocumented immigrants have a common cause. They are all being exploited.

Also, just for clarification – how do you identify undocumented vs documented immigrants?

KNOWITALL's avatar

They dont hide it and they send money home to help their families, thats why they spend so little here. Some of the builders do exploit them but some crews are untrained, and builders pay another crew to fix the job. Some ppl dont want them even working on their homes, its complicated. The factories have weekly buses coming in with elderly and children, its sad.

MrGrimm888's avatar

They are a strong people. The Latino/immigrant population. Many endured untold hardships, just to get here. They don’t speak English , and have nothing. They rarely get help from the Police, and frequently fall victim to robbery (where I live, it’s common knowledge that they have cash money, and are reluctant to report a robbery.) They live in cramped conditions, and work brutal jobs for low pay. Most “normal” Americans don’t want to do the jobs they do. Working construction 14 hours for $100, isn’t something most would do. MANY construction, and agricultural companies (owned by Americans) have made a killing off the backs of illegal immigrants. I guess they’ll go belly up, if all the workers get deported.

Who will replace them in the American workforce? I don’t know anybody dying to go pick tomatoes, in tough conditions, for low pay, and no benefits…

thisismyusername's avatar

@KNOWITALL – Do you find it strange that the victims of this exploitation are considered the enemy, rather than the ones doing the exploitation?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@thisismyusername I’ve been to Mexico and seen brothels, people living in the jungle with nothing, and yes, it’s sad and horrible. Living and working here allows them to help their families at home and I don’t fault them for that, it’s admirable. If the builders were actually held liable for hiring undocumented workers, we may get it stopped, the exploitation. I can’t blame my fellow Americans for being upset at being underbid, as that’s how they feed their families, too. It’s a tough situation for sure. So no, I don’t find it strange, it’s been happening for a long time. But some people feel if they use the schools, they should pay school tax, etc…and I wonder about all the kids tbh, are they working in some back room at a Tyson factory plucking chickens at five years old or did they get in school or ? I just don’t know all the answers.

It’s not just illegals, usually at least one leading the crew is legal and speaks english.

I’ve seen worse treatment to my trans friend in the same construction field, who has been ran off of jobs and threatened. The boss would take everyone to lunch except her, the guys would make comments and it got so bad he quit that job. That’s just the mentality around here in quite a few areas, not all, but a lot.

@MrGrimm888 I do feel compassion for them, but not more than for my fellow Americans. There’s an attorney in their ‘factory’ town who is helping many get legal, but ICE has also showed up and taken people with criminal backgrounds, too. I mean we can’t just say ‘all the poor Mexicans’ because some are legit criminals, while others are truly trying hard to assimilate and live the dream.

I just found it interesting that there were no other viewpoints on this thread, so I thought I’d give you the red state version of this issue.

KNOWITALL's avatar

Here’s a post going around:

Imagine for a moment that you own a gym. You charge $1000/year for memberships. It’s an elite gym – the only one like it in the entire world – and your members love it. The members start noticing that non-members are using the gym at no cost. Not only are they using the gym, but they’re bringing their kids into the gym with them. The parents eventually stop using the gym because they’re old and don’t have time, but their children are still using it for free while members continue to pay $1000/year for the same access.

1) As the gym owner, do you continue to let non-members use the gym for free because you have empathy for their gains, or do you make them go through the contract process and follow the rules like everybody else?

2) Do you expect your paying members to sit quietly by while others abuse the system with no repercussions?

thisismyusername's avatar

@KNOWITALL – Thanks for your perspective!

I’m not saying that you agree with that gym metaphor post, but you might be able to know some of the reasoning behind it.

While I find it to be wrong on so many levels, I am interested to know – if the fear is that undocumented immigrants are “off the books”, so somehow attending tax-funded schools without paying taxes (not sure this is true, but for the sake of argument…), wouldn’t the situation be better if these undocumented immigrants were documented and “on the books” so they did have to pay these taxes?

In other words, some of the resentment appears to be regarding their undocumented status. So, wouldn’t a path to citizenship resolve those concerns?

rojo's avatar

I would like to point out that with DACA we are talking not about workers who come and came into the country illegally but about the children of the workers who were brought here by parents and had no say at all about it. They grew up in this country and most know no other home. It seems to me to be unAmerican to turn around and throw someone to the lions (particularly lions in an unfamiliar country) just because of the actions of their parents.

And yes I understand that many of them are of working age now but the point still stands, they grew up as Americans in America. The vast majority of them went to public schools, got out, went to college or got a job and are viable members of our society.

Sometimes there is a vast difference between what is legal and what is morally right.

KNOWITALL's avatar

There are some who are open to legalization, if done correctly, but still don’t appreciate all the teachers in factory towns being required to speak Spanish or they aren’t hired, the dollar store asking if you want English or Spanish- some feel like we are bending over backwards to accomodate illegals in our country and are resentful.

Yes DACA is about the kids, and if there is a path to citizenship and they make it through, then I’m good with them staying. I adore many of them, but there’s some I wouldn’t want in my neighborhood or as neighbors. We call them hot beds, where many live in one apt or home, it’s because the beds are always hot from someone taking a sleeping shift, etc…

Understand, we have many people from many countries going to school here, and some settle here. Everyone is required to be legal except the Mexicans, so even other immigrants are resentful. They paid money, waited, tested, learned English and got in legally, so they don’t understand why Mexicans are an exception to every rule we have, and why so many Americans feel sorry for them. True story.

rojo's avatar

Just a little perspective on the construction end of things, at least here in Texas. I have grown up here and been in construction most of my life. During the forties and fifties in Houston the vast majority of the construction workforce was white, In the sixties and seventies many of the less desirable and more labor intensive jobs such as pouring concrete, asphalt work and roofing began to be done predominantly black laborers. In the eighties and nineties hispanic labor came to be the norm in these fields. By the 21st century it was rare that you would see a black concrete crew or even a black member of the crew and you begin to see a Hispanic presence in such fields as framing and drywall. In our area drywall was dominated by the Wendish workforce, a group that came to the US in the late 1800’s for the most part, became farmers and shopkeepers around the Lincoln/Giddings area. Why they ended up as the predominant group in drywall installation I do not know.
Since 2000 I have found that Hispanic labor has moved into other fields like framing and drywall and much of the other trades but at this time around here most of the framing crews are comprised of Mexicans as are about half of the drywall hangers out of Houston.

Interesting thing was that in the beginning of this trend no matter what ethnicity of the workforce, the subcontracting company owners and their foremen were always white. Then it was just the owners and the foremen were of the same ethnicity and now most crews are predominantly owned by and dominated by members of the same ethnic group. While certainly not unusual to see mixed labor groups, it is not the norm by any means.

Speaking to the white subcontractors the predominant reason they gave for hiring minority labor was that they had trouble finding white laborers who would work for the pay they offered and could not afford to offer more because they were then uncompetitive with their bids and could not get work.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@rojo Sounds similar in some ways to here although we don’t have a large black population at all outside urban areas like St Louis or KC. And yes, of course the subcontractors say that, why pay a white union drywaller $25 an hour when you can get three Mexican for the same wage per hour. To me the subs are justifying screwing everyone over for profit. Now whether that’s the American way or not, doesn’t make it morally justifiable to me. (see other thread about billionaires…lol)

rojo's avatar

@KNOWITALL

I agree that requiring teachers or others to know another language is wrong, if they want to fine but it should not be a requirement to teach in an American school and this should be addressed.

On the hot bed issue, this is something that again is more common in working adults and subadults, not children. Children are all going to be going to school at the same time so hot bunking is not an option and therefore is bullshit false argument. Again, with DACA we are talking, for the vast majority, about kids who have grown up American.

And as for the other resentful immigrant, again there is a false narrative. If they came here legally for schooling or whatever, they did so voluntarily, the DACA kids did not. They did not come here under their own volition, they were brought here. There is a difference. If the immigrants of a different ethnic background were brought here under similar circumstances then they should also fall under the DACA category and be given the same preference.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@rojo Okay. I feel like you may be taking this personally so I’ll bow out, not in the mood to defend an entire ethnic group and their choices.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@KNOWITALL . “I do feel compassion for them, but not more than for my fellow Americans.”

I’m afraid I disagree with you. They ARE your fellow Americans. More importantly, they are your fellow brothers/sisters, fathers/mothers etc. They are people too. If they are willing to work harder, for less, does that make them bad people?

In construction, I can see a rise in American employment. If we deport the “illegals.” But prices will also rise exponentially.

I see a giant void in agriculture though. Property management. These people, legal or not, make the wheels turn as much as any other American…

KNOWITALL's avatar

@MrGrimm888 It’s fine to disagree. If I snuck over the border in some foreign lands, I’d be killed, and certainly not called an Iranian or Egyptian and just allowed to hang out as long as I wanted and do whatever work I wanted, whether I had kids or not. I find the liberal mindset on this issue fascinating tbh.

thisismyusername's avatar

@KNOWITALL – Keep in mind that the countries these immigrants are coming from are largely in the state they are due to the United States – not that it matters. But it could be something to consider when you have the feeling that these people don’t have any business being here.

If we are willing to spend our tax dollars to destroy a country, then we probably shouldn’t be appalled when these people come to the US.

Additionally, racism and xenophobia has been a tool of capitalists to keep labor from organizing around the common enemy. Working class whites have historically fallen for this and found the explanation that immigrants/blacks are the reason why it’s tough to get a job or earn a living wage. The success in keeping the working class punching down means that they will never have the collective power or energy to start punching up.

Blackberry's avatar

We’ve been saying this for awhile. Social conservatives are backwards fossils.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@thisismyusername To me, we all want the same thing. To have all immigrants checked and become American citizens, with all the rights and requirements that comes with that.

@Blackberry So kind of you to say that, when ONE person had the nads to give another point of view on this. Keeping it classy as always.

thisismyusername's avatar

@KNOWITALL: ”@thisismyusername To me, we all want the same thing. To have all immigrants checked and become American citizens, with all the rights and requirements that comes with that.”

I’ll drink to that. :)

KNOWITALL's avatar

@thisismyusername Exactly. It doesn’t have to be ugly or contentious, and the only way to discover that is by open honest communication. I’m in one of the states that Trump wants to keep, I was born and raised here, and I don’t thump bibles or hate LGBTQ’s, I even voted for Clinton back in the day….why wouldn’t anyone want to hear the perspective from a part of the world helping determine policy on this? Makes no sense to put on blinders or earplugs to reality.

stanleybmanly's avatar

@thisismyusername Kudos on your astute observation on a major cause of migration from Latin America—U S policies. Few Americans realize just how significant our behavior has been in driving desperate people North, and would be astonished at the parallels. For example, it can well be argued that just as corporate farming made it impossible to earn a living in the rural United States, NAFTA extended that reality to places where rural is all there is.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@KNOWITALL . This is about people brought into the US as children. They had no say in the matter. Most are established, and woven into their community. 800,000 of the people you currently exist around, could be thrown from their homes. I know that you are thoughtful.

How would you do,if you were deported to San Salvador?
Do you know anyone there? How would your life change? Would this be a good thing? What about your family? Scattered around, due to policy.

This is nonsense. IF we adhere to American ideology. Our diversity, is a strength.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Then they should begin the process of becoming an American citizen as we have required immigrants to do for quite some time. Ignoring the issue until the govt says ‘don’t worry about it, just keep doing you’ is not acceptable.

I agree diversity is our strength, absolutely!

Dutchess_III's avatar

I think it’s a very good, very compassionate thing.

What I don’t understand is where people come up with the idea that they’re all losers and moochers and don’t pay into the system, don’t have SS cards yet somehow manage to draw SSI.

From what I understand it’s a very long, very expensive process to become a citizen. But I’m sure thousands have gone through it.

Blackberry's avatar

@Knowitall

I apologize that didnt contribute anything lol

Dutchess_III's avatar

In the past @KNOWITALL, undocumented immigrants were afraid to start the process. They were afraid to step up and let themselves be known for fear of deportation. That’s what DACA was trying to address.
I am a little surprised at your comment. This business about immigration and legality is all man made crap. I don’t think God would approve of it. I think God would say “Live anywhere on earth you want to with no hassle.”

Dutchess_III's avatar

Wrong thread.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Blackberry Accepted. Took me a little by surprise though.

@Dutchess_III I have nothing against immigrants from any land, but they must obey our laws like all of us do, or pay the price. In fact, it’s irresponsible for them not to know their rights here imo.

Please don’t ever try to use my religion against me in a thread like this please, I don’t appreciate that. I get that enough from judgemental christians who think I should agree with THEIR every word or political stance because I do believe in God.

Nope, in fact the opposite.

Matthew 22:21 Jesus said “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and to God the things that are God’s.” Romans 13:1 “Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God and those which exist are established by God.”

More here:
https://bible.org/seriespage/26-laws-land-romans-131-14

Dutchess_III's avatar

The Dream Act and DACA cover that. Not every single person is eligible for it. People who are breaking the law aren’t eligible. They have to have completed certain tasks.

“The DREAM act is an American legislative proposal for a multi-phase process for qualifying alien minors in the United States that would first grant conditional residency and, upon meeting further qualifications, permanent residency.” (From the link above.)

thisismyusername's avatar

@KNOWITALL – Re: breaking the law – the fact that undocumented immigrants statistically commit crimes at lower rates than legal citizens, we’d probably be encouraging immigration if we were concerned about crime.

Rarebear's avatar

I totally agree with the idea of DACA. And what Obama did with his executive order was unconstitutional and should be revoked.

Dutchess_III's avatar

You mean Trump?

flutherother's avatar

@KNOWITALL The DACA kids have to obey the law like any other American and they are also subject to the governing authorities. The governing authorities have yet to decide what to do with them but most Americans feel they should be treated with compassion as they have done nothing wrong.

Rarebear's avatar

@Dutchess_III No, I wrote Obama and I meant Obama.
I agree with his intent. And how he did it was unconstitutional.

Rarebear's avatar

@Dutchess_III
https://www.heritage.org/immigration/commentary/daca-unconstitutional-obama-admitted

And to be clear, I completely agree with DACA’s intent. But I feel Obama did a disservice by using an executive order instead of having Congress do it (or not do it at their political peril)
https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/five-myths-about-daca

flutherother's avatar

@Rarebear The Heritage Foundation is a pretty right wing organisation and I wouldn’t accept everything it says as gospel. Obama didn’t sign an executive order for DACA and though Trump claimed he did it isn’t true. What Obama did was to “exercise some flexibility in terms of where we deploy our resources, to focus on people who are really causing problems as opposed to families who are just trying to work and support themselves.”

Obama reserved the right to enforce immigration laws selectively. His emphasis was on deporting criminals who were undocumented, rather than undocumented students or workers who presented no threat to public safety. It was officially established by a memorandum from the Secretary of Homeland Security titled “Exercising Prosecutorial Discretion with Respect to Individuals Who Came to the United States as Children”.

It was meant as a temporary measure until Congress could pass legislation.

Rarebear's avatar

I read both right-leaning and left-leaning websites. Would you have had a problem had I posted something from, say, Truthdig or Mother Jones?

It doesn’t matter if it was meant as a temporary measure. The President can not make laws. What he did was legally questionable at best, and as I said most likely unconstitutional. And in my opinion he did a disservice to the people affected by turning what was previously had bipartison support into a left-right issue.

And just as a point of interest, here are the current list of my reading list on my “politics” tab on my web browser:
The Economist
The Federalist
Mother Jones
The Nation
Cato Institute
Reason.com (not reason.org)
The Conservative Reform Network
Southern Poverty Law Center
Truthdig
Center for American Progress
Weekly Standard
American Enterprise Institute
Top Dog Propagander
Mises Institute
American Civil Liberties Union
The American Prospect
The Progressive
Heritage Foundation

Demosthenes's avatar

My dad was born in Michoacan and emigrated legally to the United States when he was 20. My mom was born here, but her parents are both legal immigrants from Oaxaca. I identify as full Mexican American, but I don’t always agree with my fellow Mexican Americans on all issues related to illegal immigration. I have a problem with illegal immigrants being given amnesty as if their illegality were no crime. I also have a problem with the way the Left conflates illegal with legal immigration as if they were the exact same thing (which I find unfair, as someone descended from legal immigrants). At the same time, I also have a problem with children being punished for the misdeeds of their parents. I would rather see the Dreamers put on a path to citizenship than deported. This is a means of dealing with who is here now in this country. I understand the fears of some that this will encourage more illegal immigrants bringing their children, but once the people who are already are dealt with, the policy should be made clear to any future illegal immigrants and their children.

flutherother's avatar

@Rarebear Obama interpreted existing law in a humane way and I can’t fault him for that.

LostInParadise's avatar

Trump has just said that he not only supports DACA, but he also favors a path to citizenship. Link He still of course wants to use DACA as a bargaining chip to get his useless wall funded. Do you think he would be willing to shut down the government if no funding is provided for the wall?

MrGrimm888's avatar

The wall is very important to Trump. It has become a symbol of his presidency. Failure to erect the wall will mean Trump couldn’t achieve one of his most publicly touted goals. I think it’s the most important thing to Trump, and his supporters, after the tax bill. He will pursue it, at all costs. He will likely claim Mexico indeed payed for it, in some way too.

Would he shut down the government over the wall? Why wouldn’t he? He clearly doesn’t care about the job he is doing. As the POTUS, he is supposed to try to get people on enough common ground, to prevent a shut down. He didn’t even pick up the phone to stop the first one…

Rarebear's avatar

@flutherother That is his administration’s interpretation of what he did. And as I said I agree with the intent. The problem is, as I wrote, constitutionally suspect. And as such, because he didn’t wait for Congress to act as it was bound to do eventually, he made those kids a political football—and right now, the other team is running with it.

rojo's avatar

@LostInParadise my personal take on Trumps support for DACA (this week, who knows what tomorrow will bring) is that personally, he doesn’t give a crap. It is a bargaining chip to get his goddam wall.

rojo's avatar

I used to wonder how anyone could just be vehemently opposed so something such as DACA and not allow for any concession but Trump has resolved that for me. Now I understand 100%. I will not even consider a physical border wall presence along our Southern or any other border. Thanks Trump.

although, my objections are rooted in its effects on the environment while those who rabidly oppose DACA are just closed minded, arrogant bigots So, big difference

Rarebear's avatar

I actually don’t give a crap about the wall. It’s a colossal waste of time and money and it won’t be effective but whatever. It will take years to build and the next president can refuse to execute it.

If the wall is what it takes too allow the Dreamers to stay then fine. The Democrats should call that bluff.

Dutchess_III's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Trump can’t get anything erect.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Flagged. Personal attack.~

Maybe if a pornstar spanks him with a magazine….

stanleybmanly's avatar

Deep complex subject confronts shallow mind, empty head.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Yes, he used an executive order to make DACA a law, but as we would expect from Obama, not before thinking about it deeply and trying to get it through other ways.
It was the right thing to do, and he had to get it done.

“DACA exists because Obama got tired of negotiating with Congress on immigration, especially on the DREAM Act, which would have exempted school-age illegal immigrants from deportation. After having insisted to his supporters throughout most of his first term (on at least 25 occasions) that he didn’t have the authority to change the law by executive order, Obama did just that in June 2012. In doing so, Obama gambled that any future successors would not want to face the political headache of reversing his EO — a gamble that clearly did not pay off.” Source

rojo's avatar

No, not fine. No Wall. If you want to discuss and determine the other options and negotiate how we control the border without an actual physical barrier along the entire length then that is an topic that could, and should, be deliberated.

Rarebear's avatar

And THAT is why we won’t get a deal on the Dreamers.

Rarebear's avatar

@Dutchess_III “It was the right thing to do, and he had to get it done.”

Okay, but we have a Constitution. And the Constitution says that Congress shall pass laws and the President shall execute them. By bypassing this, Obama set the Dreamers up. It’s very hard to reverse a law that has been put on the books legally (look at the attempts to repeal Obamacare). It’s extraordinarly easy to reverse an executive order, especially when that order is constitutionally suspect. All you need is a new executive.

rojo's avatar

Ah I see what you mean @Rarebear, I have offered to sit down, discuss, come to some kind of solution that would both work and not be a permanent barrier and yet we cannot even do that because you (not you personally) have decided a permanent physical barrier (a 14th century solution to a 21st century problem) is the ONLY acceptable solution, a solution that I cannot accept.

Rarebear's avatar

Sorry, you were the one who said “No wall”. I agree that in an ideal world there would be no wall. Unfortunately, the President has drawn his line in the sand and said that he would not sign any legislation for the Dreamers without some sort of wall deal. If we hold him true to his word (certainly not a done deal with him) he will veto any legislation that does not have wall funding, and Congress does not have the votes to override.

I take it you would rather let Dreamers get deported than have the wall?

And just in case I haven’t made my position crystal clear, I think the wall is a stupid fucking idea. Probably one of the worst ideas in a sea of bad ideas. But I doubt he will back down on it and I don’t want to see Dreamers deported.

Rarebear's avatar

And just to hammer home my point and then I will stop, this needs to happen NOW. Families are being ripped apart. Good people are getting jailed. Businesses are systemically getting raided. People are living in fear.

We don’t have time to dither.

rojo's avatar

So hold up his budget on the 8th until dreamers get a fair shake. No wall, no nothing until that happens. Totally separate this from all other agenda or totally tie up all other agenda until you get what you want. It is the conservative way and the only way they seem to understand these days.

rojo's avatar

I think he is bluffing. He has drawn a line, we draw a line. See who blinks first and hope to hell that the Dems grow some balls in the meantime.

Rarebear's avatar

Actually part of the deal Schumer made was to pass the budget on the 8th. The only thing McConnell agreed to was a floor debate and vote.

rojo's avatar

Wasn’t the deal to bring the budget to a vote on the 8th and if McConnell follows through to agree to it? McConnell still has not. And, if Trump can backtrack then the Dems can follow his lead and do likewise.

Rarebear's avatar

No. The deal was only a nonbinding handshake agreement that McConnell would bring it to a vote if an agreement hasn’t been done by the 8th.

rojo's avatar

Another game of kick the can?

LostInParadise's avatar

The agreement may be non-binding but it is on record. It the Republicans renege it would be sufficient justification for another shutdown.

rojo's avatar

Well, lets see, we have been working on the Dream Act since, what, 2001? With little to show for our patience. Maybe it is time for a new strategy, such as learning from and usurping the tactics of the conservatives.

And please understand, I am not just blaming Republicans for this lack of progress, the Dems held control for a number of those years and also did nothing.

I am not happy about your examples show either but you know what I think when I hear that we should just focus on DACA and not the rest of the immigration system? I hear howling conservative voices saying “See! See! They care more about illegal immigrants than Americans!” And while I know that is bullshit, these kids are Americans as far as I am concerned, I am not sure how to combat that claim come election time. Perhaps separating DACA out by itself and not letting it be a bargaining chip would work but I sure as hell don’t see that happening any time soon.
So, you hold DACA to my throat and I will hold your (figuratively) wall to yours. Sort of a, um, Mexican Standoff. (or is that too politically incorrect?)

Rarebear's avatar

It’s too politically incorrect.

rojo's avatar

But, but I thought in the Trump era being politically incorrect was the new politically correct. I am getting such mixed messages.

Besides, I can’t say it is an American standoff because an American Standoff is where you threaten me and I send a drone to blow you and your family into tiny, unidentifiable fragments.
Not really much of a standoff at all.

Rarebear's avatar

The only people will die in this standoff are the immigrants who are suffering.

rojo's avatar

Truth ^^ Sad and totally unnecessary. Since when did America turn its back on people who are in need?

RedDeerGuy1's avatar

@rojo I believe it disappeared when America went $20 trillion dollars in debt. Maybe less. No one country can look after the whole world alone.

rojo's avatar

Not when we went 1 trillion in debt?

RedDeerGuy1's avatar

@rojo I can’t remember that far back. When did the mainstream media start complaining about the debt?

rojo's avatar

Unfortunately, Mr. Lowry is incorrect. Kowtowing to Trump will not mollify him. He will end up tweeting about what dumbasses the Dems are and he will be correct. IF they give in. The only thing he will understand is absolute and unrelenting opposition.
“Democrats could easily, if they take the House in 2018 or win the presidency in 2020, defund the Wall or otherwise sabotage it.” Which assumes they will win and I am not certain that is possible. The republicans are not the only ones who are fighting for control of their party. The Dems too have an identity crisis with the Corporate funded power structure that now controls the party warring with those who want to return the party to its worker roots and as such there is no guarantee that the Dems can win.

thisismyusername's avatar

Both Bryce and Myers were arrested outside of Ryan’s office yesterday protesting in support of DACA.

SimpatichnayaZhopa's avatar

They are illegal aliens, so deport them, as the law commands. They should have applied for citizenship long ago.

Dutchess_III's avatar

You haven’t a clue what DACA is, do you @SimpatichnayaZhopa.
Those who are eligible for DACA were small children or infants when their parents brought them here. They grew up as American as you or me. They don’t know anything else.

You appear to think that becoming a citizen is as simple as filling out a form.

SimpatichnayaZhopa's avatar

They are still illegal aliens, so what? Deport them as they should be. Incidentally, I am not an American. I have a legal visa, but they do not. Why should I need a visa if they do not? Special pleading is a logical fallacy. Illegal is illegal, and you have no logical and objective arguments against deporting them.

Dutchess_III's avatar

There are certain, very specific requirements you have to meet to qualify for DACA. Not everyone is eligible. If you’re interested in understanding the program, see here.

SimpatichnayaZhopa's avatar

There should be no exceptions to deporting illegal immigrants. I am a legal immigrant, so I see no reason who anyone should not be one.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Don’t look now but your entitled privilege is showing.

SimpatichnayaZhopa's avatar

If being a legal immigrant makes me entitled, I deserve it much. Illegals are entitled to be deported with no exceptions. I have had a rough time the last few years being a refugee when my homeland was invaded. I managed to live in several nations legally. Everyone should do it, if I can.

Dutchess_III's avatar

No. Entitled means you were raised in general safety and have the money and education to do what you’ve done. To say, “I’ve done it, so should you,” means you don’t have a clue what others may be going through. It’s a very self centered attitude. Entitled.

Now why in the hell would we send people to Mexico when they were raised here and don’t even remember Mexico? They graduated from American schools, they’re going to American colleges. Many of them don’t even speak Spanish. They’re Americans.

SimpatichnayaZhopa's avatar

I have been a refuge with a very insecure life. You know nothing about me. I could not return to my homeland that was being invaded. I am hardly “entitled”. After all of my struggles, to have someone tell me what you did is crass. You have no clue about what I have been through. Your attitude is self-centered. If they are not citizens and do not have visas, they do not belong in the USA. Blame their parents ,,, if you are so compelled to place blame. They should not have been allowed to remain in the USA one day, not to mention years.

Dutchess_III's avatar

That’s horrible. Usually people who have the experiences you claim to have had are much more empathetic to the plight of others. You posts have 0 empathy.

SimpatichnayaZhopa's avatar

I am a legal immigrant in spite of my many formidable difficulties, so I have no sympathy for lazy people who had no such problems but never bothered to become legal as I did. Sympathy for lazy fools is badly misplaced.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Those eligible for DACA are far from lazy.

MrGrimm888's avatar

I am trying to understand how Dutch caring about other people is “self-centered?”

Dutchess_III's avatar

Well, consider the design of a snowflake @MrGrimm888!

MrGrimm888's avatar

These people are American people, to me. And we shouldn’t turn our backs on them. They are an asset. Not a detriment.

Deporting as many brown people as possible. Preventing as many as possible from being able to even come here. Is that really how thinly the conservatives are going to veil this “make America great again” agenda?

The racists are loving this administration.

SimpatichnayaZhopa's avatar

Invaders must be stopped. People who did not become citizens do not belong here. Many of them are criminals. It is not racism to keep out invaders. Muslims have said they want tto take over the world. They want to force their ways upon you, rather than adjusting to this antion. No one needs open borders. Too many undesirables enter. These people are not as innocent as some liberals portray them. False charges of racism is old and meaningless.

chyna's avatar

Many American citizens are criminals, too.

rojo's avatar

Big on blanket statements there @SimpatichnayaZhopa. If my choice were a hard working undocumented worker and a legal immigrant with an attitude similar to yours I know which one I would prefer remain in the country, papers or not.

SimpatichnayaZhopa's avatar

Someone is biased against me and my alleged “attitude”. Well, I am here legally, and illegal is illegal and not to be excused and preferred. I would not work for anyone who is a criminal by breaking laws and hiring illegal immigrants. Such a person belongs in prison for flagrant violation of the laws of the land. All lawbreakers should be arrested.

rojo's avatar

No, not against you but certainly your self righteous attitude irritates me. Fundamentalism of all kinds is a danger to a free and open society.

Dutchess_III's avatar

And I might point out that you don’t even know who “these people” as you called them, are when it comes to DACA.

SimpatichnayaZhopa's avatar

You describe yourself more than me. Freedom does not involve breaking laws. Being too open allows much undesirable to enter. Do you lock your doors at night? do you have walls in your home? If you live out in the open, you are easy prey. I heard about a homeless man who laid down in a parking lot. He was awakened by someone stabbing him in the abdomen. No, I was born an atheist, and I have never seen any evidence that gods exist. Knowing that they are illegally here is quite sufficient. There are no excuses. They do not merit any special treatment. Laws are laws, so enforce them and remove all illegal aliens. There are no exceptions for any reason. Why do so many people wish to defy laws? That makes you outlaws.

Dutchess_III's avatar

They were children.They don’t even know Mexico because they have become American. They don’t even talk funny. They’ve gone through and graduated from American schools. They deserve a chance, rather than being deported to a land they don’t know, whose language they don’t speak.

chyna's avatar

Do you think that every person Donald Trump has hired for all of his hotels are all legal? I would bet there are a few in housekeeping, grounds keepers, food supplies, etc., that are illegal aliens.

rojo's avatar

Can I just say that, as a foreigner, you do not belong here. Your kind are violent and prone to crime. I don’t care if you are here legally, your kind is all alike. I don’t care how you came here or what the circumstances are in your real country, you should not be here. You do not belong in these here United States of America. It is for Americans only. Legal or illegal, immigrants is immigrants and do not belong. You bring your foreign beliefs and attitudes and we don’t appreciate it. You bring down the pay of hard working real Americans. You are entitled to nothing, you and your kind have invaded my homeland and make it a garbage dump like where you are from. You are an invader. You come where you are not wanted and won’t ever go home. You abuse the capitalist system and deprive some native born son of the fatherland of a job and a means of living. You want to force your old ways onto our country. Your kind want to take over everything and make it what you want, not what we want. You might have somehow gotten papers but you are not as innocent as you make out to be. True Americans should not hire the likes of you, a foreigner, you should not benefit from our benevolence. What do I care if your country is poor or embattled, it is your own fault and the fault of your race for not being civilized. You should leave, go back home. Now. You, at least, have one to go to no matter if it is a shithole country as our Dear Leader calls it. DACA kids, they are American, this is their home.

Dutchess_III's avatar

She’s just here for the welfare benefits.

SimpatichnayaZhopa's avatar

When emotions control you, you cannot be reasonabale and objectgive. Whatever the case, illegals do not belong here. Blame their parents for behaving foolishly. Your sympathy is misplaced. You say what liberal media want. I am legal, so I belong here. Russia invaded my homeland, so I became a refugee. You are cruel tto not want me to escape war. I am not making anything a garbage dump. I do not force my ideas upon anyone. I find Americans who agree with me, and I learn from them. I am glad to escape the tyranny and chaos in my homeland. No, Iam legal, but DACAs are not. You are quite unreasonable and make false accusations. It is perverse to want illegals and not legals. It is not my fault in any way that Russia invaded my homeland. It is absurd to make such claims. I have been in Europe, and now, I am in the USA. You have no power over me. What an irrational tyrant you are. Upholding illegals and telling legals to leave is insane and criminal. I have never received welfare. I have some money saved. I earned high pay in France and Italy. It is truly sad the lengths liberals will go to to preer illegals to legal.

Dutchess_III's avatar

You don’t belong here.

SimpatichnayaZhopa's avatar

You say a legal immigrant does not belong here, but illegal ones are to be coddled and kept here by all means.. You advocate breaking laws, so you are a criminal, and your argument sounds insane. I belong here more than any illegals do by far.

rojo's avatar

Do you hear yourself?

Let my try this:

When emotions control you, you cannot be reasonabale and objectgive. Whatever the case foreigners do not belong here. Blame your parents and the other adults for behaving foolishly. Your lack of sympathy is misguided and some would say (a lot of people really) pathetic. You say what conservative media want. I was brought here as a small child, it is the only home I have known, I belong here. Drug lords fueled by the US need for drugs took over my homeland, so my parents became refugees. You are cruel to want me to send me to a country plagued by war and poverty that I have never seen and don’t even speak the language. I am not making anything a garbage dump. I do not force my ideas upon anyone. I find Americans who agree with me, and I learn from them. My parents came to escape the tyranny and chaos in my homeland. I had no choice in the matter. There are many who are quite unreasonable and make false accusations. It is perverse to want those born or raised from childhood in the US not to stay and only allow those who chose to be her on their own. It is not my fault in any way that drugs, crime and poverty are rampant in the homeland of my parents. It is absurd to claim that it is not your problem but mine. I have been in the USA ever since I can remember. You have no power over me. What an irrational tyrant you are. Punishing people who were innocent of any crime to leave is insane and criminal. Most have never received welfare. Most have some money saved. Most have a job but were not lucky enough for their parents to be able to make it to France and Italy. It is truly sad the lengths conservatives will go to.

Does this make any clearer that what you are saying is morally bankrupt?

Dutchess_III's avatar

Read what @rojo is saying. Wish I could give more than 1 GA, dude.

SimpatichnayaZhopa's avatar

Someone is terribly absurd. Illegals should be deported. There are no excuses. You are too emotional about it to be reasonable and objective. I inform you that illegal means against the law. telling leglal immigrants to leave and wnting illegalones to stay is insane. Such is liberal brainwashing. Illegals are tools for democrats to gain votes theey do not merit. Illegals are not innocent of any crimes. Illegal means against the law. can you not comprehend that? You are uttering nonsense and show you are morally bankrupt. It is insane to sat someone who wants to uphold the law is morally bankrupt. The morally bankrupt people are democrats who want these illegal votes and liberal media that brainwash you to agree to such violations of laws. Everyone involved in this should be in prison for numerous violations of laws. I have broken none. I see the blind lead the blind. If you go much further with dfalse accusations, you will be flagged rather than receiving best answers from biased zombies.

rojo's avatar

Flag me all you want for disagreeing with you and pointing out the fallacies in your own arguments. I cannot help it if you are too brain dead to even see that the very arguments you spew forth are but verbal excrement that you have picked up from right wing hate sites.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Seriously? Cute Ass is flagging you??

SimpatichnayaZhopa's avatar

You are wrong. I have not picked up anything from hate sites, but you obviously parrot left wing hate sites. I am just being reasonable and objective, but you cannot be, because the liberal media has aroused a frenzy of hate and rage against anyone who disagrees with your wrong beliefs. You have no pointed out any fallacies, for there are none. To you reason and objectivity are foreign, since the liberal media has brainwashed you. What a rage you exhibit to protect illegals. I remind you illegal is against the law. wantging to violate laws is criminal. You claim I am immoral, but I am advocating that the laws be upheld, so you are being abd surd. You must value those illegal votes for Democraps highly. My brain is much more alive than yours. I see some news on Facebook, an some friends mention some news items. The “govno” is what you two liberals mindlessly utter about casually breaking laws.

Dutchess_III's avatar

LOL!! Intelligent, reasonable people understand that sometimes “laws” need to bend or even be broken at times. For example, it was once illegal for black people to vote. Women too. Only white males had any say over how this country was run.
Only a fool follows laws blindly, without question.

SimpatichnayaZhopa's avatar

You are not discussing intelligent, reasonable peopled, but biased people controlled by base emotions. Only a criminal wantonly breaks laws. You glibly want to violate laws. You are criminal. You are not above the law, and you are not qualified to make judgements about laws. You display such strong bias. Tell it to the judge!

Dutchess_III's avatar

No one said, anything close to “wantonly” or “glibly” breaking laws. Not even close.
We’re saying it’s time for an exception to the rule.

MrGrimm888's avatar

We vote for the people who make the laws. I think that entitles us to opine about the laws…

SimpatichnayaZhopa's avatar

Yes, you glibly want to violate immigration laws. Exceptions to laws are against these laws. There is no valid reason for any exceptions. Opinions are like “ketsu” in that everyone has one, but some are driven by immature emotions, rather than mature reason. Failing to deport illegal immigrants is illegal as well. Some of you wantonly and glibly wish to violate immigration laws. All illegal immigrants should be and should have been deported immediately, rather than being allowed to violate laws for years. That makes a crime worse when it is done persistently for years. Liberal politicians’ motives for preferring illegals are evil.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I suggest you do some research and try to understand what DACA is before you try and argue your point, because to me it just sounds like you’re blathering.

SimpatichnayaZhopa's avatar

I know enough. Illegal is illegal, and that is sufficient. You sound hysterical about it and thus cannot be objective and reasonable. The Law is the, and immigration laws are mush more reasonable than laws on prostitution. Your logic is bad in equating them.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^What will you do, if the conservatives decided that they will make your type of immigration illegal? It’s clear that the agenda for the conservatives is isolationist, and hopeful for a pure white America. If they continue on their path, you’ll eventually be on the chopping block too.
Maybe you can reread your posts, as you wait in prison to be deported…

Dutchess_III's avatar

You are anything but logical. Really, you should do your research before you try to debate a topic. You don’t know anything about DACA. You certainly can’t debate something you know nothing about, and certainly not from an emotional stand point, as you’re doing.

SergeantQueen's avatar

I wouldn’t be here without it? Or maybe I am thinking of something else.

SergeantQueen's avatar

What I am thinking of is when your parents are from another country, but come to America and you as the child get automatic citizenship because your parents are citizens (or get citizenship). That isn’t coming here illegally because your parents came here legally but I won’t argue with anyone so don’t @ me with rude comments, please.

@simpatichnayaZhopa maybe you should play This game About how people become US citizens. If the parents are here legally the kid can be too. I don’t understand what you are saying.

rojo's avatar

@SergeantQueen DACA would not have affected you or your status. You received your citizenship through your parents when they became citizens.

DACA is solely a sane and humane response to help those who were brought into the country as children and were raised as Americans in America by parents who did not seek, or get, the proper paperwork..

SergeantQueen's avatar

ooooooohhhh okay. Yeah, I was born here but not my family :)
Well My point still stands. They were raised here and hopefully they do get the right paperwork but even if they can’t they still deserve to be here =) I wouldn’t want to be forced into a country I never remember visiting…

rojo's avatar

@SergeantQueen that is the point of the whole DACA idea. Give them a way to achieve citizenship while still staying in the country they were raised in. Nothing more, nothing less but it has become a lightning rod for contention in the country with all kinds of rumors and misconceptions about it.

Dutchess_III's avatar

The biggest misconception being that everyone who is here illegally can qualify for DACA.

rojo's avatar

^^^ and that those coming in to the country now qualify for it and that is a major draw to the border at this time when neither is true.

rojo's avatar

Here are the actual requirements:

Have arrived in the United States prior to age 16

Have continuously resided in the United States without legal status since June 15, 2007

Be less than age 31 as of June 15, 2012 and at least age 15 at application (unauthorized immigrants under 15 but in removal proceedings are also eligible to apply)

Be currently enrolled in school, have graduated high school or obtained a general development certificate (GED), or be an honorably discharged veteran

Have not been convicted of a felony or multiple or serious misdemeanors and not pose a threat to national security or public safety

Dutchess_III's avatar

Thank you.

However, I am curious as to how the kids were able to go through the school system without a SS number?

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Another example of the administration’s ignorance…

Trump.doesn’t understand that he can’t make changes through sheer will…

Dutchess_III's avatar

He doesn’t understand that he doesn’t have infinite powers. In fact, he has LESS power now than he did as a private citizen.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Correct. Even with the Republicans controlling congress, his wishes still need to meet certain standards, and be legal. Sadly, the guy in charge, doesn’t know basic things about his job…

SimpatichnayaZhopa's avatar

You Lunatic Left brainwashed zombies make many false charges against people who disagree with you. It is somewhat as the Bible said with you looking for dust motes in other people’s eyes and failing to see waver’s beams in your own eyes.

rojo's avatar

^^^I was gonna write something shitty about the sanctimoniousness of calling people you do not know names while accusing them of making false charges but figured it would just be lost on you so why bother.

SimpatichnayaZhopa's avatar

How many times have your gang told insulting lies about me? I flagged several who called me “Russian spy” and Russian troll. I hate Russia who invaded my homeland and made me a refugee. Some of you make me laugh with the absurd things you say, e.g. someone saying “Ya” is Russian Yes. All of you gang of harassers just stop. I have nothing to say to such self-righteous hypocrites who accuse me of things they do to me. You have a double standard similar to that of Christians.

SergeantQueen's avatar

@SimpatichnayaZhopa You need to chill. No one here is “Attacking” you or “stalking” you. I’ve read most of the threads your on and I don’t think they are trying to attack or stalk you I think they are just trying to have a polite debate or conversation. You are the one misunderstanding.
I don’t think you are a Russian spy either. Just think you may not understand English well or you just don’t understand how to take things neutrally online. Lots can get misconstrued online so you have to approach things neutrally.

SimpatichnayaZhopa's avatar

It is hardly polite to call me “Russian spy”, Russian troll”, paranoid, irrational, dumb fool, etc. The latest is Racist. I suppose some comments I flagged have been removed, but the remaining ones are bad enough. Do not make their problem mine. They just cannot tolerate a different opinion.

Dutchess_III's avatar

HA! “In the biggest setback yet for the Trump administration in its attempt to end a program that shields some undocumented young adults from deportation, a federal judge ruled Tuesday that the protections must stay in place and that the government must resume accepting new applications.”

SergeantQueen's avatar

You can’t tolerant a different opinion

rojo's avatar

@SimpatichnayaZhopa we don’t have a gang, just a bunch of individuals and for someone who has nothing to say you sure do a lot of it.

Don’t take me wrong, just one lunatic brainwashed zombie self-righteous hypocrite to another, but I am hoping you might see the parallelism between what you do and what you accuse others of doing.

SimpatichnayaZhopa's avatar

Some judges are traitors or outlaws. When a judge refuses to uphold laws, a nation is in serious trouble. Liberals are in rebellion against many laws. Why do they prefer illegals to citizens? I can offer some probabilities.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Laws are man made. They can be changed.

SimpatichnayaZhopa's avatar

Laws are to be obeyed until they are changed. There should be quite good reasons for changing laws. Blue laws are unconstitutional, but immigration laws must not be changed to allow illegals to vote Democratic.

Dutchess_III's avatar

They were changed for DACA.

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