General Question

Hobbes's avatar

If McCain wins, would I be justified in leaving the country?

Asked by Hobbes (7355points) September 14th, 2008

I know a lot of people blow a lot of hot air about “moving to Canada” or something similar, but I am a dual US/EU citizen, so moving really wouldn’t be a problem. On the one hand, I don’t want to live in a country lead by McCain (and likely Palin, as he’ll probably die a year or so into office). On the other hand, I feel that leaving would be an abandonment of the country – running away from its problems rather than trying to fix them.

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116 Answers

El_Cadejo's avatar

I think id only be justified if your willing to take me with you ^_^

Judi's avatar

I have a funny feeling (in the God forsaken event that he wins) that Palin will quit in a year and he will put Liberman in. Don’t ask me why, it’s just a gut feeling.

MrMeltedCrayon's avatar

If you cared, you’d smuggle me out of the country Hobbes.

Hobbes's avatar

@ Judi – that does kind of make sense… Palin’s an idiot, but she’s charismatic. Good for winning elections, but not so good at actually holding office.

ljs22's avatar

I’d love it if you were right, Judi, but Palin does not impress me as the type to willingly give up power.

Judi's avatar

we’ll see.

BonusQuestion's avatar

I remember people saying similar things in 2004. Does anybody know if people really left the US in the last 4 years?

jcs007's avatar

I’ve already made plans to move to Japan if he does win. I can’t speak the language, my family has no idea that I’m planning this, and I haven’t told anybody else about this yet. So we’ll see how it goes.

BonusQuestion's avatar

It seems you guys have given up??? I still think Obama has a better chance.

bluemukaki's avatar

That would be pretty lame, quitting the game just because you didn’t win just isn’t Cricket, instead you should kick the referree in the head and then make friends with Fidel Castro deal with the consequences of the democratic process, (majority rulz bitchez).

Besides, McCain couldn’t be any worse than Bush… could he? Now I’m concerned

augustlan's avatar

@Blue: McCain might not be, but Palin? The idea makes me shudder.

BonusQuestion's avatar

That’s true. I can’t imagine McCain governs worse than Bush but I can imagine Palin turns out to be worse than Bush.

Hobbes's avatar

@bluemukaki – well, technically, it may not be “majority rulz”, as the election will be decided not by the popular vote but by the electoral college.

I think McCain would at least have a vague idea of what the hell he’s doing, even if his policies are awful. Palin… god. The idea of her as president terrifies me.

PupnTaco's avatar

If McCain gets in, I offically quit politics forever. It’d just be too painful.

dalepetrie's avatar

You know, the way I see it, if you smash your head against a brick wall repeatedly and you stop, yes, you’re giving up. But if you want to survive or retain your mental integrity, sometimes that’s the only option.

In this case, people fought valiantly against Bush, Gore won the first time around and the system was rigged. We didn’t give up. Four years later Kerry should have won, but whether it was stolen or just a result of the fact that the electorate is easily manipulated enough that more of them thought the draft dodger was a stronger commander in chief than a decorated war veteran, and yet we still didn’t give up. Now we stand in a situation where Obama is actually the Democrat many of us have been waiting for, McCain is a repeat of Bush, and Palin is even worse (and is not only dangerous ideologically, but woefully unprepared), and every other word out of the mouths of either McCain or Palin is a bald faced lie, yet McCain is up in the polls. Well, the public is just getting stupider if they believe this bullshit! How can you run for months on the experience issue and then pick someone for your second in command whose main qualification is that she lives close to Russia? Yet people are BUYING it. How can you campaign for a bridge in 2006 and then say you were against it in 2008, when video evidence proves you a liar, and people still fucking buy it?

No, you can only beat your head against a brick wall for so long, and then it becomes a matter of self preservation. Leave if you must, realize that if we lose this one, there’s really nothing left worth fighting for. Bush destroyed our Democracy and unless we restore integrity to our governmental systems, something McCain CLEARLY has no intention of doing, there will be no Democracy left to fight for. Save yourself. But don’t leave until we’ve lost….we CAN and I believe WILL win this thing. If we don’t, I don’t know WHAT I’m going to do.

hoosier_banana's avatar

@Hobbes: let’s not forget the voting machine factor.

Vincentt's avatar

If you feel leaving is like “an abandonment of the country – running away from its problems rather than trying to fix them”, consider how much you think the country will be better off if you stay, and if it’s worth it to you.

Personally, I’d find stuff like the Patriot Act and other invasions on privacy far more disturbing than just a McCain presidency.

Then again, if you move to a EU country, you might be in a similar situation in a few years. The US still has a huge influence and is pushing through intrusive laws in the EU as well.

Good luck anyway, whatever you decide to do :)

Cardinal's avatar

Is EVERYONE on this site a BO supporter? Holy crap!!! uberbatman & Hobbs, you 2 want to leave? Hit the road, you will love Japan. Quitters never win and I for one won’t miss any whining BO supporters.

poofandmook's avatar

Actually, as we have seen before, majority doesn’t rule. I practically spew bile from my mouth every time I speak the words “electoral college.”

waterskier2007's avatar

@Cardinal, agreed for sure

delirium's avatar

Mikey, i’m fully intending to move to Canada if that were to happen. You can come with. ;)

I fear palin more than I can say. She’s sadistic, stupid, and evangelical. Unfit to run anything, let alone the country. Mccain has had every type of skin cancer possible, and has less than a 60 percent chance of surviving his presidency… and that’s just according to the things we KNOW about his health.

bodyhead's avatar

There’s nothing I hate more then people who make statements like, “If so and so wins, I’m leaving this country.” No you’re not. You’re just spewing the same old crap that everyone says every four years.

I support BO because of his stance on a ton of issues. I’ve done my reasearch and I understand that most people haven’t. When you guys say you’re going to leave the country, and then don’t. It just makes liberals look like a bunch of winey cowards with no follow through.

I’m grouped in with you guys because of who I’m voting for. Surely there’s some middle ground between winey liar and resolve so strong that no hard physical evidence can sway you (no offense anyone who supports the current regeime).

delirium's avatar

Correction: Australia. I have to go there anyways, most likely, for school.

Bri_L's avatar

If McCain wins I will do what I can to move the country along.

poofandmook's avatar

…I actually do know someone who left the second time Bush was elected. LOL some of them do leave.

bodyhead's avatar

I would guess less then 1% of people who say they’ll leave actually do. Not one single person I know left (a bunch said they would if Bush was reelected). Some people who had already planned to leave for other reasons (work, love, life, etc.) might say it’s because of the political climate. Yea well, chances are that it’s not.

If you’re rich enough to move on a whim because of our crappy state of government, good for you. Do it. If you’d like to tuck your tail and run because your opinion isn’t the popular one, I don’t mind one bit if you leave the country. Meanwhile, I’ll stay here and write letters to my congressmen. Your political opinion only matters if you exercise it. Vote. Write your congressmen. Become involved in something.

You can love your country without loving your government. They don’t decide what you think. Their actions are suppose to be based on your opinions. If they aren’t, work to change them.

wundayatta's avatar

When we say “if ______ wins, I’m leaving,” I read that as a sign of the strength of our feeling. While I know one person who left for Canada over the last four years, it was mainly so he could have an organic farm in British Columbia, and he wanted to retire, in addition to the fact that he hated Bush. It was a good thing he did go, because he got a rare form of cancer and he never would have been able to afford his medical bills if he hadn’t been in Canada.

My friends and parents and so many people I know have made this statement—first with Reagan, and then the two Bushes. We were sure the country would go to hell under these Presidents, and while they all made things significantly worse, I guess it wasn’t exactly hell. So, McCain, too, shall pass. So will Palin.

Many liberals are wealthy enough that Republican tax breaks actually benefit them more than all the hoi polloi. It’s odd being in a position where you can espouse one set of humanistic beliefs, while benefitting even if inhuman policies are implemented. Well, I guess you can give more to charity in that situation.

Anyway, we should be smart enough to invest in defense, oil, and anti-immigrant industries, making money on these things even as we fight them. I suppose that’s hypocritical, but with everyone in mutual funds these days, that’s pretty much what is happening.

Poser's avatar

You’d absolutely be justified. I understand Europe loves sore losers.

IchtheosaurusRex's avatar

Sure, but you wouldn’t be able to afford it. The dollar has lost so much ground against the Euro by now that we’ve become a nation of paupers.

Hobbes's avatar

@Poser and several others – it’s not about being a sore loser, it’s about not wanting to live in a country controlled by idiots, cowards, crooks and fanatics.

Poser's avatar

Where have you been living all your life, if not such a country?

dalepetrie's avatar

Perhaps Hobbes should have said, “it about no longer wanting to live in a country controlled by idiots, cowards, crooks and fanatics.”

And to be wholly fair, prior to GWB stealing the 2000 elections, most of us thought that wasn’t something that could be done in America. And prior to 9/11, we didn’t really think facism and mind control were things that could be effective in America. And prior to the Swift Boating and the evangelical uprising in the 2004 election, many of us had a lot more faith in the electorate, and considered religious fanaticism to be a fringe issue, not a huge component of our mainstream culture. The point is, if in 2008, when Democrats have a MASSIVE advantage in terms of dissatisfaction with the previous administration, a MASSIVE structural advantage in terms of number of registered voters, and numbers of new voters being registered, at a time when the economy is in the toilet, huge banks are failing, unemployment is at its highest rate in years, millions of people are losing their homes, 1/6th of the population is uninsured and a vast number more are underinsured, nearly 1/6th of the population lives in poverty, we just saw the first raise in the minimum wage in decades, we no longer live in fear of 9/11, we’re in a vastly unpopular war which the Dems want to end and the Republicans do not…and we have a populist candidate who excites and energizes people, including the youth voters to a degree heretofore unseen…we SHOULD be running away with this thing.

Yet, we have an old man who embraces the failed policies of the last 8 years, someone who’s had cancer 4 times and is the oldest person ever to be nominated to head a major party for the first time, who won’t release all of his medical records, and he picks a second in command who hasn’t even been properly vetted, who is embroilled in personal and professional scandal, and who’s only experience is Mayor of a small town (which under he watch became the meth capital of her entire state), and 20 month governor of the 3rd smallest state in the US…a person who has rarely traveled outside the US, who has basically refused to take questions from the media or discuss issues and when she did, has made very serious errors in judgement on foreign affairs issues, and is also someone who embraces extremely far right values which are strongly outside of the mainstream. Now this ticket might get elected because gosh oh golly, people just like her down to earth, mooseburger eating persona!

The problem is, if we were engaging in real debate on the issues, the Obama/Biden ticket would resonate with FAR more people than the McCain/Palin ticket, but McCain has done what Republicans do best, and has connected with voters emotionally. And therefore a huge share of the population are going to vote against their own self interests. And the problem is, this election is about changing the tone, so that we elect good leaders from here on out. If we elect Obama, we’ll have someone who hasn’t run a campaign based on lies and personality based attacks. The problem is, if this doesn’t work now, I can’t imagine that it will EVER work. All hope is lost.

So asking where he’s been living all his life, well the answer is probably not where he thought. I for one will lose all faith in America if the majority of people pick the politics of personal destruction over the politics of common sense. Eventually, we gotta cut our losses, because after all, the definition of insanity is trying the same thing again and expecting a different result. We’ve already tried again, but as George W. Bush himself said, “There’s an old saying in Tennessee—I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee—that says, fool me once, shame on—shame on you. Fool me—you can’t get fooled again.”

Hobbes's avatar

Thank you petrie – you’ve perfectly summed up my anticipated disgust with the whole system. I would say that the answer is education, that if people are taught to be good thinkers they will not be such idiots when they elect presidents, but with the last administration’s ignorant and destructive meddling in education, even that is falling apart at the seams.

Poser's avatar

I’ve already lost all faith in America. The problem (right now) is that Democrats’ memories are too short—they can’t remember anything before GW—and Republicans’ memories are too selective—they can’t remember anything after Reagan.

Meanwhile, the only difference between the two parties is abortion.

hoosier_banana's avatar

As someone still enlisted in the IRR, I will be leaving the country if McCain is elected, and I would rather go to Chile than Iran.

Vincentt's avatar

@Cardinal – no I’m not. I know nothing about both, so I have no stance (I can’t vote in the US anyway). I seriously doubt the majority of votes really knows what both want (/say they want), and even if they did, I’d need to see if they’d really keep their promises. And if they don’t, they probably won’t be judged on not keeping their promises because everybody forgets.

cwilbur's avatar

I think you’re entirely justified in leaving the country.

However, I also think you should just do it—going on and on and on about it before it’s relevant doesn’t really convince anyone, and if you make a lot of noise about it and then don’t follow through, it just makes you look like an ass.

bodyhead's avatar

cwilbur, I couldn’t agree with you any more. I’m out of GAs but I’d give you ten if I could.

Why spend 1 second blabbing about it? Just move if you’re going to do it. If you threaten to do it, then don’t, it weakens your argument when you don’t follow through. The only thing worse then a deserter is a failed deserter. You can’t even leave right.

If America is a sinking ship (and it is. The current administration has destroyed the environment, the budget, our good reputation etc), you can run to the lifeboats if you want, but the rest of us are going to try to patch the hole and if we all work together we can empty out the water with our buckets before the ship goes under. It doesn’t help if you stand there with your bucket and do nothing so just go ahead and get on the lifeboat.

The only difference is that if we were on a boat, we would push you on the lifeboat because your complaining isn’t helping anything. Do something about it. You are not powerless. You are not helpless. But if you say you are leaving the country and don’t, you just might be spineless.

dalepetrie's avatar

If the politics of pessimism succeeds over the politics of optimism this time around, what incentive do we even have any more to remain optimistic, though?

And hey, I’ve been in discussions with conservatives before about the merits of Canada’s health care system vs. ours, and one argument that always comes forth is “brain drain”...the theory being that in a more “socialized” environment, they don’t pay their doctors and other professionals as well and they all come to the US. Well, it’s the smart people who just plain can’t friggin’ take it any more, if another election is won by the worst possible candidate at the worst possible time simply because people just “like” his VP pick and can “relate” to her, it’s the same as the “who would you rather have a beer with” question that brought Bush within the margin he needed to rig the 2000 election and have his pals on the Supreme Court install him. The smartest people are going to start following through, so you can go on and on about deserters and stupid going on about it and this and that and the other thing, but bottom line, by bringing it up, it’s a call to action to anyone who really is still asleep at the wheel to say, hey now, wait a minute. If we let stupidity trump common sense yet again, not only are the stupid STILL in the majority, that majority is only going to get bigger as people give up and see better alternatives around the globe. I think less than a decade ago, you’d have been hard pressed to find an American who didn’t think he was lucky to have been born in the greatest country in the history of the world. Now you can’t swing a dead cat without hitting one. Even if some of the threats turn out to be hyperbole, the emotion is raw and real, and should not be discounted so easily.

Hobbes's avatar

@bodyhead – if we really were all working together to bail out the ship, I’d stay. But instead, most people on the ship refuse to believe it’s sinking, some don’t know what “sinking” means, some put blind faith in the captain and first mate who wrecked the ship in the first place to bail them out because they’re such “down-to-earth guys”, some are blaming the gay people and the deck hands on the ship for its sinking, and no-one is listening to the group of people desperately shouting that if only we could work together, we could save everyone.

bodyhead's avatar

@Hobbes, I love your metaphors. That really gave me a good chuckle. Even on the boat, if you’re threatening to leave and doing nothing else, you’re dead weight.

@dalepetrie, The emotion may be real but I hear it a little too often. Enough with the pity party.

It’s not like the threat of you moving changes the political climate whatsoever. Let me just call all the idiots in middle America and tell them that if they don’t vote right, someone they’ve never heard about going to move to another country. They’ll cry themselves to sleep tonight.

If you want to move, that’s fine. No one is going to stop you. I’d welcome you here with open arms if you wanted to stay. We’re all in this together. The problem comes when 99% of people who say they are going to move, stay instead. You’re just running your mouth and going no where. Why not use that raw emotion to stage a protest against creationism in schools or write a letter to the paper about a woman’s right to choose. I appreciate the sentiment but complaining gets you no where.

If bitching and moaning could make the world a better place, we would truly be the greatest nation in the world.

Really the great irony is that all of you guys who are counterpointing me are voting the same way (assuming you are voting).

Hobbes's avatar

@bodyhead – just to clarify, I’m not “threatening” to move, I’m honestly asking fluther’s opinion. Also, I don’t expect it to change the political climate – the intention would be to escape the repercussions of his election.

bodyhead's avatar

@Hobbes, No worries, I wasn’t attacking anyone. I go so far to say I totally respect the opinion of everyone who disagrees with me. That’s what the freedom of speech is all about.

Bri_L's avatar

I have a question.

Don’t we as Americans have a duty to do what we can to support who ever wins?

If we don’t isn’t it like saying “I want that boat”, being put on the one we don’t choose and then taking it apart in protests?

poofandmook's avatar

@Bri: On that argument, isn’t it the duty of the person in charge to do what the people want?

bodyhead's avatar

You can support the foundations that your country was built on by disagreeing with your government. It was set up so you have the opportunity to do that. We’re no long a monarchy.

If stupid people are easily swayed by religious propaganda, start making some.

dalepetrie's avatar

Brain Drain is my point exactly, we risk reverse brain drain, and though someone can call it bitching and moaning, by pointing it out, perhaps we wake a few of the more apathetic to realize that hey, all these people who are actually engaged in the process and seem to be smart enough to know what’s going on are saying it’s bad enough that they may leave America! The Greatest Country in the world™. What could have made it this bad? Maybe all that “bitching” gets enough people to sit up and listen, and indeed before the result is set in stone is the time to be making these arguments. If the threats turn out to be hollow after the fact, the damage is done, no one cares anymore, no one pays attention at that point, and if they do, their voices won’t matter anyway. So, I’m not adverse to anyone making this threat, hollow or not, because there are a LOT of people who need SOMETHING, ANYTHING to wake them up to the realities of just how bad things have gotten. If threats to leave it are what it takes, then so be it. As you bodyhead yourself said that if stupid people are easily swayed by propaganda, so we should start making some, isn’t saying that a McCain Presidency would be bad enough to make some of us expatriate exactly that?

Bri_L's avatar

@ poof – yes it is and by theory the guy who wins is who the majority want. Then we should all move forward with the machinery in place and mechanisms there are to fix things or change them so they work.

Isn’t baling or checking out for 4 years or doing nothing just like jumping ship on the patriots because what’s his name got hurt so it will be harder for them to cheat this year?

Hobbes's avatar

@Bri – we’re not taking the boat apart, we’re questioning the fitness for leadership of a captain steering our “unsinkable ship” straight towards an iceberg.

In addition, here are some more concrete reasons why I would move:

1. I want access to good health care
2. I want to avoiding the probably draft
3. I want to live in a place away from religious fundamentalists.
4. I want to get out before the economy collapses
5. I actually do want to live in the UK, and especially to do so before it is mostly under water
6. I don’t want my internet to be taxed
7. I don’t want to live in a country where money is continually sucked out of public education, and where schools continue to be measured based on an increasing number of bullshit tests.
8. I don’t want to be under Sarah Palin’s command in any way, shape, or form. That woman is like Huckabee on crack.

Bri_L's avatar

@ Hobbes – WAY better analogy.

1. That isn’t going to happen here unless you have the right kind of job.
2. That isn’t going to happen here either, they have no way to enforce it.
3. There is no where to go like that.
4. Choose wisely, if ours goes, it will ripple, china and japan depends a great deal on us.
5. That is a great idea and nothing should stop you.
6. I don’t know what that is like elsewhere in the world but I would be surprised if that made it through considering the construct of how it would be implimented.
7. I hear that!!!!
8. HaHaHa – I hear that as well!!!!

Hobbes's avatar

1. The UK has National Health.
2. What do you mean? Public outcry might be a problem, but not enforcement.
3. The UK is one of the least religious countries on Earth, or at least the most free of Fundies (except perhaps Denmark and Sweden).
4. The pound has been continually, exceptionally stable.
5. That is true – it would be difficult to implement, but McCain does support internet taxation.

allengreen's avatar

The tree of liberty must be occasionally watered with the blood of patriots and tyrants. “Thomas Jefferson”

…just as soon as I finish my Big Mac….

Bri_L's avatar

1. righto, I was agreeing with you
2. if they had a mass draft there would be no real way to enforce it, bring everyone in, or accommodate them would there? Maybe I am just not thinking this through.
3. I forget, who saves the Queen? Just kidding TOTALLY kidding. I had no idea.
4. I had read, and I will find it, an article that traced the probable route of effect were our economy to fail, as sound as the pound (hehe) may be, it wouldn’t be.
5. McCain thinks the internet are the 13 net like stints they put in his heart

Hobbes's avatar

1. I see =] Didn’t see the “here”.
2. The draft worked fine in Vietnam, didn’t it?
3. Well, a fair number of people go to church, but for the most part it’s essentially a social gathering, not a matter of religious belief.
5. Did you know he doesn’t know how to use a computer?

Bri_L's avatar

2. yes, but I thought that was the last time they used it and that was also why they stopped. now we can’t afford the volunteers we have let a lone the people it would take to do anything about a mass refusal.
3. I love the show “Vicar of Dibly”
4. Yeah, he is SOOO in touch.

mzgator's avatar

As a proud American I will support my president, even if it was not my choice. I will support my country, and I will try to change the things I don’t like.

poofandmook's avatar

“proud American” is all well and good but I don’t see the point of living in hell for 4–8 more years if you don’t have to, just so you can say you’re a proud American. You can be a proud wife of someone but if they dump on you, are you going to stay with them just so you can say you’re “proud wife of—”?

Bri_L's avatar

@ mzgator – my take has always been – do what I can with what I have.

@ poofandmook – so how do you decide when to try and work at it and when to cut bait?

poofandmook's avatar

in my [admittedly pessimistic] opinion, we can only try and work at it during election time. Once the President has been sworn in, it’s out of our hands. Sure, you can write all the letters in the world to whomever you please, but in the end they’re still going to do what they want to do.

Bri_L's avatar

I see. Thank you. :-)

allengreen's avatar

mzgator——like lots of good Germans in 1930?

bodyhead's avatar

allen, They didn’t try to change their government. When they tried, they were killed. If we get to that point, I’ll move out of the country.

allengreen's avatar

i guess I’m getting kicked off fluther, notice has been served—I’ve enjoyed all of you folks…..good luck…

bodyhead's avatar

Too bad. I’ve enjoyed your rants and what not. Good luck brother.

maybe_KB's avatar


Hobbes's avatar

What are you laughing at, KB? And why are you being kicked off, allen?

bodyhead's avatar

on Allen…
Surely it’s because of his answers (which can be rather harsh sometimes). I’m willing to bet he leaves some of the most highly flagged responses. He can be both accusatory and blunt. And somehow his answers always seem to churn out an intense emotional response.

on KB…
I would guess he’s laughing at Allen leaving one of his trademark responses and getting kicked off fluther two comments later.

allengreen's avatar

they gave me the chance to stay, you are not through with me yet.

so you’re the one flagging me…...

dalepetrie's avatar


I have never flagged you and I’ve agreed with most if not all of what you said. But I can understand, you come off as VERY confrontational and argumentative, and unfortunately what I’ve realized is, particularly in the political realm, doing that pretty much firms up the partisans/the base…it puts your enemy on the defensive and then facts can not get through. It’s the strategy they used with Palin…people started ugly rumors about her, said things that could be misconstrued as sexist, etc. and made it about personality…the Republicans just used that to offend their base, because their base needed firming up. Dems are pretty much on board this time around, and essentially that leaves Dems with two challenges. We can try to convince people who’ve gone over to the Republican side, but if we try to do it the way you do it by throwing out your “all Republicans are evil” rhetoric, it will turn them off and give them no reason to listen to you. It’s far better to say, “I understand why you like McCain and Palin or why you agree with trickle down economics, but consider these facts…” If you don’t make it hostile and accusatory, people who might be leaning to the right might actually LISTEN to you…what you do will just turn them off. As for independents who haven’t made up their mind, let’s face it, far too many of them are just going to make up their mind based on a gut feeling. If Dems go around talking about how vile and evil the Republicans are, then they’re going to believe when someone like Bush calls us the “angry left” and they’re going to be turned off of a left leaning ideology.

I think you have every right to be angry, and believe me, I share your anger. But we’re not going to win hearts and minds in this election by coming off as shrill, hostile and angry. That sits well with people like me who are pissed and would never vote for McCain, but those whose votes are still winnable will see this type of thing twisted so that it looks like the nice, innocent Republicans are being beat up on by the mean evil Democrats. It’s a self enforcing irony.

So, I’m glad to see you’re back, but I’d encourage you to try to stick to the facts. The whole reason I post here and no longer on Askville is that the Rethuglicans on there behaved exactly the way you do only in reverse (and I use Rethuglican to indicate not ALL Republicans, but those who behave in this manner), and their management wouldn’t do anything about it. If we engage in rational discussion and use facts (which you clearly have a good grasp of), and disagree without being disagreeable, we will win this one.

That’s my two cents, take it or leave it.

bodyhead's avatar

Hah! I would never flag you no matter how much I disagree with your message. I too, like dalepetrie, share your anger and actually agree with a lot of your points. Maybe just turn the anger knob back to 8 from 11.

I’ve only flagged one message in my entire time here and I can’t remember why I did it but I know it wasn’t yours.

allengreen's avatar

I disagree that rational discussion will bring Republicans to our side—they are racist, they hate America (they have destroyed our wealth and economy) and have destroyed the American brand internationally. We cannot convince them since they have faith and cannot be reasoned with unless Jesus whispers in their ears. They think if they destroy America and our environment and make endless war that they are helping Jesus come sooner—THESE FOLKS ARE BEYOND REASON.
They need to be called out. They need to be held to account individually. They need to be ostracized. They need to be made to eat kitty litter. They should be treated like Redcoats in 1776——the enemies and traitors that they are. Words mean something or they don’t, let’s call a duck a duck. Democrats are losers because they are polite and play by the rules, and we will lose this time too.
That said the majority of Democrats agree with you and not me, and so we will lose. Clinton said in 1992, “Americans will follow someone who is strong and wrong, over someone that is right and weak”. It is true.
So stop playing into Repub talking points about “angry left” if you are not angry, then you are not paying attention. I’m mad and angry as hell, and I’m not going to take it anymore.

Flag away.

So much for a kinder softer Allen Green. I cannot help my self.

wundayatta's avatar

Ok, Allengreen, the Dem attack dog. We need to keep you leashed in the yard, until they act threatening, and then set you loose to do your worst.

Dalepetrie is right about tactics, though. Did anyone read that article, I forget who posted the link to it here, about the kinds of people and the type of morality they are concerned with? I think that’s important, and we need to really understand it, in order to be able to move independents and other types of people in the middle.

augustlan's avatar

@Daloon: That was a great article, linked by Kevbo in this question.

bodyhead's avatar

Thanks augustlan, I’ve already sent daloon a PM to find the article. Disregard my message Daloon.

wundayatta's avatar

@augustlan: thanks!

Poser's avatar

So much for liberal open-mindedness, right ag?

Oh, wait, let me respond in kind.

“F-you, you whiny, liberal, communist, homo-lovin’, draft-dodging, tree-hugging, hippy!”*

Did I leave out any stereotypes? You certainly didn’t.

*I’d sincerely like to apologize, in advance, if anyone was offended by the above.

allengreen's avatar

Poser——thank you for making my point. “THESE FOLKS ARE BEYOND REASON.” Redcoats in 1776——the enemies and traitors that they are.

Republicans destroyed America and they are proud of it and would do it again, and will when McCain is elected this November.

dalepetrie's avatar

Yes, allengreen, by disagreeing with my argument, you are actually proving my point.

“I disagree that rational discussion will bring Republicans to our side”

That’s not what I said or implied. I don’t think you move Republicans to our side either.

But take the case of a Republican who doesn’t like the McCain/Palin ticket. That person has four choices…vote for McCain anyway, vote for Obama, vote for a 3rd party or stay home. If we point out the reasons why Obama is a better candidate using logic and reason, THIS person might well not vote for Obama, BUT, he might figure he’d be OK with that outcome, but just doesn’t want to have any part in putting McCain over the top. So he might stay home or vote for a third party. If however they go on blogs and see Democrats saying “Republicans are all evil, they hate America, they are greedy, selfish bastards…” well that coming from an Obama supporter could make him think, “geez, if this is the way this guy’s supporters think, maybe I’d better bite the bullet and vote for McCain, just to be sure Obama doesn’t get in if I have anything to say about it.”

The next group of voters which are the ones you truly have the ability to reach are the undecideds, and let’s face it, the undecideds decide our elections, and if they actually paid attention to the issues, well, I’d suggest they wouldn’t be undecided at ALL. And they’re not going to go into the voting booth with a list of pros and cons for each candidate based on the issues…they’re by and large going to go in with the gut feeling about who do I trust more. If they see McCain’s supporters behaving badly (like mocking community service as they did in the Convention) and McCain and Palin lying, being called on it and repeating the lies, that’s going to leave them with a sense that they’re not trustworthy. So, if Obama drives that message home in a fact based way, and his supporters on line do the same, and point out, hey…this isn’t personal, McCain served his country heroicly, and Palin is a model for working women, but here’s what they’ve actually been up to,” that message is one that these undecideds can be receptive to. If however we get mad, and call the Republicans lying scumbags because they’ve lied and sold out every principal they’ve ever had, well we may well be pointing out a truth that everyone should know, but what happens is the emotional blinders come up, the undecideds think the Dems are just being nasty, going on the attack (and after Obama promised to run a clean campaign nonetheless), and they end up trusting Obama even less than they trust McCain.

It’s not rocket science…it’s human nature. And just because the liberal to conservative ratio here is about 10 to 1, don’t think that there aren’t people on here who can be persuaded, who can then go and persuade people they know, because there are. And they see stuff like this, and it turns them off.

Indeed, the reason that in the year where we had the highest turnout ever for a Presidential election (2004), 40% of the electorate didn’t bother to vote is in large part because of the toll of negativity in Presidential campaigns. Ask any marketing person and they’ll tell you that the entire purpose of negative advertising is NOT to win voters, but to turn them off the opponent, or if possible, the entire process. A smaller pool of voters is easier to manipulate.

So I humbly argue that by being too in your face with the whole “Republicans are worthless scum who should die,” rhetoric, you are possibly turning some people against Obama, and the only people who your message is really having a positive impact on are those who already supported Obama in the first place. Yes, this might make some give more money to his campaign, but Republicans who see that nastiness will be moved to give more money to McCain’s campaign.

Elections are about strategy, about who can play the game better. Republicans win because they make the election about emotions and not about issues. This election was starting to seem like it might actually be ABOUT issues for the first time, until McCain tapped Palin. Overnight this became about personalities and not issues. And since she is a polarizing figure, it makes Republicans even MORE Republican and Democrats even MORE Democrat…but what affect does it have on the center? Well, they were able to make this about a personality, talk about all her fun, unique qualities and essentially make people who vote based on gut feelings like her. So, as soon as a Dem showed anger (instead of reasoned opposition…which is the point I’m trying to get across here), the undecideds said, “you know what, I like her, and you’re beating up on her just shows how mean spirited you are…now I’m decided I’m voting for McCain because I’ve had enough of this cynical politics.” These low info undecideds don’t even realize they’re being played.

Bottom line, my advice is to play them, not to assault them, if you don’t want McCain to win.

allengreen's avatar

Dale—your whole argument assumes that the Republican Mind operates like your and mine.

It operates more like a lizard brain, motivated by primal aspects like fear, hate, ect.—-this activity takes place in the stem of the brain.

You operate from your frontal lobe where higher level functions take place. (Where is nikipedia when we need her?)

Read John Dean’s book about the Authoritarian Mind——I can’t find the link.

I agree with you 99% on everything else. you give them too much credit

1 they are brutal
2 they will do anything to win
3 they think you and I are stupid

Poser's avatar

@ag—I’m sorry. I didn’t know you were capable of reason.

augustlan's avatar

@ag: I don’t think Dale is necessarily disagreeing with your thoughts, only your methods. He doesn’t seem to think either of you will win over any die-hard republicans, but you might have a chance with the independents. Remember, you catch a lot more flies with honey, than with vinegar.

dalepetrie's avatar

Exactly, I totally agree with ag’s assessment of the Republican mind. My point isn’t that we’re going to win Republicans though, it’s that we’re going to turn off independents and energize unethusiastic Republicans if we go forth with a hostile message. I believe there’s plenty of history to back me up on this one.

allengreen's avatar

dale and aug——well made points and well taken. Could we agree that there is a role to be played by the reasonable Dale, and the polite Aug’s, and may there be a role for the allengreen—rabid rottweiler may have a roll as well?

In 2004, I was the polite reasoner. Rabid foaming mouth Republicans shouted me down, questioned my patriotism, called me names, and politeness got the discussion nowhere. And now, having 8 yrs of history and facts on my side I refuse to be bullied by lizard brain aliens anymore. I do live in Arizona, one of the most brain dead populations I’ve ever know, right wing racist bastards galore. I have a mixed race family, and I have found that lizard brain morons only respond to the rabid rott approach.

That said, I think you both have a viable approach for independants. I want to make the bastards eat kitty litter, that’s my role.

dalepetrie's avatar

fair enough, and like I said originally…my two cents, take it or leave it.

hoosier_banana's avatar

Great thoughts here, personally I believe that Allen has an important role in this whole scene. Allen is the product of all the information we are putting out there in our calm rational manners, he gets it, and he’s pissed, he’s raising the alarm. He validates our arguments with the proper emotional reaction. We can’t possibly expect someone to learn the truth and be OK with it.

That being said, Allen, I also agree with Dale, extremism drives people away. I haven’t been here that long and I don’t know your full body of work, so I will use an example rant of your’s from my question Can Republicans Prove Their Logic. Which, by the way, I thought we did well with, Dale included.

One cannot discuss and debate with Republicans. Their ideas are ideological—that means they already have all the answers before the debate begins. They have all the answers from the beginning and they fit the current world around their outdated, twisted, non-reality based, 11th century world view. Republicans, put ideology above country, even above themselves and their families. Republicans will take food from their kids mouths to put $ in the offering plate at church, while the top 1% Republicans have too many millions to spend and steal from their employees. These are the same people that did not believe in gravity, thought the earth is the center of the universe, and they think that Americans are seen by God in an elevated way compared to people from other countries, and Repubs hate the Constitution too.

“We cannot move forward in the USA until we treat Republicans for what they are enemies of the Constitutuion and of the USA. THAT IS RIGHT, REPUBLICANS ARE ENEMIES OF THE USA, CONSTITUTION AND EVERYTHING AMERICA STANDS FOR.

“If you love America, you must treat Repbs as if they are Al Quaida—they are! They are destroying USA from within, and they are winning, and they will win this coming election.

“Anyone that votes for McCain is an enemy of America, Constitution, and the vision our forefathers.”

In that rant I disagree with your reference to AQ, that is baseless. And I also don’t agree with the reference to the customs of religion(offerings), that is a whole nother issue that is even harder to argue than politics, when you you attack a christian for being a christian, they see you as the devil, no joke, that’s what my former church expected me to believe. I think all of your other points can be argued.

I think you should choose your arguments very carefully, be specific, be sure you (or I) can back them up. The evidence is on our side, let’s use it.

allengreen's avatar

Your point is valid, I will drop the christian attacks. Thank you for showing me the light, as have other flutherers.

bodyhead's avatar

I don’t think you should drop them. Maybe just reword them. The motivation behind them is totally valid.

dalepetrie's avatar


Your post where you said,

“In 2004, I was the polite reasoner. Rabid foaming mouth Republicans shouted me down, questioned my patriotism, called me names, and politeness got the discussion nowhere. And now, having 8 yrs of history and facts on my side I refuse to be bullied by lizard brain aliens anymore,”

did strike a chord with me.

I have my own story to share from a slightly different perspective. Back in 1999 I was hired to a job I really loved at an up and coming tech company where I had stock options and thought, “this is it, this is how I will become wealthy.” Things went well for about a year, until the Presidential campaign got into full swing. I was complacent, I didn’t think there was any chance Gore, having been VP twice under a President who presided over the longest period of economic growth in American history, could possibly lose to the son of a one term, unpopular President, a man who had failed in everything he’d ever done, had dodged the draft, and had zero grasp of the English language. Then he opened his mouth and said, when things seemed to be chugging along nicely, that the economy was already in a recession….it was BS, but it was campaign rhetoric, and within a WEEK, pretty much all the investment money in the tech sector dried up. Our little company (which had a killer app which would still be considered cutting edge) was unable to get investment money and we started to slip. Then the tech bubble burst, and after about 6 sets of layoffs, come early 2003, I was let go. I was angry and bitter, and I saw a direct correlation between the President and the economic factors that got us here. Whenever I’d get together with people I used to work with, and genuinely liked, I’d be critical of the management though because I felt betrayed by them as well, and I found quickly that people don’t want to hear that….I don’t see any of those people anymore, because reasonable people…the kind you can reach with logic, get turned off by negativity…that was lesson #1.

But I had more reason to be bitter…I paid attention. Before I knew how Bush had used Choice Point to outright commit election theft, I felt it was completely wrong how he used the power of his own supporters in high places (Katherine Harris worked on his campaign and effectively certified results when they were in Bush’s favor, when she shouldn’t have been able to do so due to conflict of interest, and 2 Supreme Court justices who voted to uphold Harris’ decision also had ties to Bush’s campaign and should have recused themselves). The more I read about it, the whole chads and butterfly ballots became of less importance, though they both could have been decisive as well, and the more importance the sheer dishonesty became to me.

And then 2002, I was struck a HUGE blow. You live in Arizona where they’ll support a man for 30 years even if he doesn’t support an MLK holiday, but I live in Minnesota, where we were the ONLY state smart enough to realize that Reaganomics was reverse Robin Hood economic policy in 1984. We also elected a man named Paul Wellstone to serve as our Senator in 1990, and again in 1996. He had been planning to serve 2 terms and call it quits (which was used against him in the 2002 campaign), but after he saw what Bush was up to (and was the only one in the Senate at times with the courage to stand up to Bush), he realized he was needed.

Unlike most of the other Senators who barely seem to phone it in, Wellstone worked 80 hour weeks. He was a tireless champion for the people…a true progressive. Conservatives HATED him with a passion, and Bush himself realized what a threat he was. The Rethuglicans had gone into Minnesota (just as they are now doing with Tim Pawlenty) and groomed a young St. Paul Mayor named Norm Coleman from the mid 90s on to seek higher office some day. Coleman had been a radical left wing activist, a protester of the first order during the late 60s when he went to college. He was elected Mayor of St. Paul as a pro-choice Democrat. But he met with some of Karl Rove’s people in the mid 90s, and overnight, he became a pro-life Republican. With the help of the Republican Party elite, he ran for governor in 1998, and it seemed he’d have a good shot at it, even though he had left the City of St. Paul in Shambles (I live in St. Paul, and I saw firsthand how he lured businesses into downtown with tax breaks, then let them walk away one after another without having to pay any of those lucrative subsidies back, leaving our fair city with one of the highest vacancy rates in the country for commercial property). He might have won were it not for Jesse Ventura, who didn’t like either party, and actually had the balls to say things like, maybe we ought to consider legalizing drugs and prostitution…other countries do it. So, back to the drawing board for Norm, whom I liked to refer to as Norm Quimby, because the guy has a strong Kennedyesque way of speaking that has come to symbolize the say anything to get elected politician…clearly the guy does not represent traditional Minnesotan values.

Anyway, fast forward to 2002, Norm was running against Paul Wellstone, and was losing. So what happens? 10 days before election day, Norm and most of his family perishes in a plane crash on the way to a funeral in northern Minnesota. Some conspiracy theorists say they saw black vans in the area and had strange interference on electronic devices consistent with something that would jam a plane’s gauges. That story is given some credence by the fact that Bush specifically signaled out Wellstone as an enemy and personally asked Norm Coleman to run against him. That and Norm’s record in his first year in the Senate of supporting Bush’s policies almost 100% of the time earned him the name BushBoy.

Anyway, we picked former Vice President Walter Mondale to run in Wellstone’s place, and it might have worked, we’ll never know, because what happened was this. The campaigns agreed not to do any advertising or talk any smack about each other until after the memorial service. At the memorial service, a well intentioned, but not very smart friend of Wellstone’s came up to the podium and started to try to turn the ceremony into a political rally, chanting “we’re gonna win”...he tried to make Wellstone’s death a call to arms to win for his memory. That and the fact that Wellstone had Republican friends in the Senate and when some of them showed up, the audience booed them, made the whole deal come off pretty poorly from a PR perspective.

Well, I thought it was wildly inappropriate, but I saw it, these people were in pain, they’d lost a hero, and the one guy had lost a friend, we were grieving, some got a bit out of line. But what I didn’t know, because I didn’t listen to right wing radio, was that on talk radio they strung Democrats up like we were the most vile, hateful people….see how we used the death of one of our own for political gain? How disgraceful! In fact, what the Rethuglicans were doing was using Wellstone’s death for their OWN gain, while making it seem like that’s what WE were doing…it wasn’t fair, it wasn’t right, it was mean spirited and ugly, and by GOD it worked.

It worked so well that all over the country in 2002, ANGRY Republicans turned out at the polls and caused them to win both houses of Congress by huge margins, including Wellstone’s seat. So, Democrats had every right to be angry in 2002 because of what Bush was doing to the country, because of how he stole the election and because of how he was using the memory of 9/11 for political gain even then. We had substantive reasons to be angry about how Bush had replaced all the heads of the regulatory agencies with heads of the industries they were supposed to be regulating. We spent several months after 9/11 where it wasn’t even acceptable to criticize the President for ANYTHING….if you did you were blackballed, shouted down, called names, etc. We were pent up. But the Republicans, who don’t need a substantive reason to become outraged (hell, some Republicans get outraged if they think a Teletubby is gay), had all they need by the mere suggestion that Dems were using the death of one of their own to try to win an election, were positively livid. And THAT is what caused 2002, not 9/11, I would stake my life on it.

So lesson #2 was that Republicans are motivated by anger. You said it yourself when you said that the Republican mind “operates more like a lizard brain, motivated by primal aspects like fear, hate, etc.” Therein lies the problem I’ve had with many of your posts. When you attack them, you make them angry, you make them hate you, you maybe even make them fear you, that motivates them to become your enemy. When I’m fighting with an enemy, I prefer to fight with one who is complacent and doesn’t see me as a threat or an object of vitriol.

So, though I think we need to be forceful in our arguments, we need to speak to the things which motivate people, etc., I don’t think leading off with accusations is going to do anything but lesson #1 – alienate the reasonable, and #2 – motivate the unreasonable to fight back.

But we each have our own roles to play, and if you think you’ve actually changed any minds with your modus operandi, than more power to you.

allengreen's avatar

points well taken…is Franken going to win do you think?

dalepetrie's avatar

It’s iffy. I really hope so. The wildcard will be Independence Party (Ventura’s party) candidate Dean Barkley. He has like 13% support, which theoretically means he could win the same way Ventura did in the 98 Governor’s race. Ventura was down in the 10% range until about a week before the election, his #‘s started to climb and people realized he had a shot. If he does something that connects w/ voters, he could win. But he’s probably closer to the Dem positions, so he probably detracts more from Franken than from Coleman, so I kind of wish he’d get out. I think Franken can pull it off, but he’s got to be a lot more aggressive than he’s been, and he needs to work harder to tie Coleman to Bush. If he can do this, he has a shot. In Minnesota I’ve found it’s really hard to know until about a week or even a day or two before what might happen from polls, it gets very volatile last minute around here for some reason. Latest polls however show them in a dead heat, which is good progress for Franken. Franken does definitely represent Minnesotan values better. On the upside our other Senate seat was populated by a Republican the whole time Wellstone had this seat, and now we’ve got a great Democrat, Amy Klobuchar in that one, so one Dem and one Republican isn’t all bad. If we could just get rid of Pawlenty and Coleman, the damn Republicans would stop treating us like their best friends.

In 2004 I was positively sickened seeing Pawlenty and Coleman on TV gloating about Bush’s win, because even though they didn’t swing Minnesota, they looked like the cat that had gotten the canary when they gloated about how they caused the Dems to have to spend money defending Minnesota and maybe if they’d spent it in Ohio instead they would have won! I just wanted to reach through my TV and bitchslap the arrogant sons of bitches.

Jreemy's avatar

If I didn’t have an educational obligation, I would leave if that happened. Guy just plain scares me. So does Pailin.

sundayBastard's avatar

Presidents are puppets. It does not matter who wins. Governments place borders on man kind. You are justified to go where ever you want. I would suggest a Nordic country. Maybe I will see you there.

Agood politician and the toothfairy have one thing in common. They do not exist!

Do not even play along with this silly illusion of “I have a choice of who will be the master of me” game.

wundayatta's avatar

Now there’s a hopeful fellow for you! Optimistic, too.

sundayBastard's avatar

I know I do not sound too optimistic or hopefull, but I just call’em like I see’em.

wundayatta's avatar

Ah well, gallows humor, I guess. Although, I would not want to be up against you in a cynicism contest. You make Kafka look like Betty Boop.

They say, “Scratch a cynic and you’ll find a disappointed idealist.” Your ideals must be up there in the saintly category! Your disappointments Jobian!

sundayBastard's avatar

ha ha I’m sorry. I really am. I try to ignore the news and many other depressing things in society. Maybe I just need a beer.

wundayatta's avatar

No, sundayBastard. A beer won’t do it.

I used to work directly on these things, knocking my head against the wall, trying to make this world a better, more caring place. I failed, of course. I thought that the small, normal things could take the place of those ideals: family, friends, etc. But I got whacked on the head, or rather, inside my head, and now, god knows, it’s all different and I don’t know what to make of it.

If I don’t make a difference, I’ll feel a failure. The question is, how can I find a difference I’ve made that is big enough to feel like it matters? Yeah, if I had that, I think it might take the edge off my cynicism. Right now, though, it’s just easier to be all doom and gloom (particularly about myself), because then the world feeds my expectations, and at least I’m not disappointed. It’s as bad as I expected. I hoped it wouldn’t be like this. I warned people about Bush. I did the best I could. But it wasn’t enough.

And now, it looks like people want to compound their mistake. Maybe I’m not so bad off, afterall. I may hate myself, but at least I know it. The American electorate? They hate themselves and think they like themselves!

sundayBastard's avatar

daloon, your words are true. I like the truth. It is refreshing to hear every now and then. I have an obsession with truth, justice and equality that I just can not shake. I guess, I just wish karma was for real.

augustlan's avatar

Truth, justice…and the American Way!

sundayBastard's avatar

well without the american way part….....well maybe the american indian way.. lol

wundayatta's avatar

Karma is real. Why do you think we’re in the pickle we’re in now?

bodyhead's avatar

Bad decisions get bad results. No karma had to be involved.

wundayatta's avatar

ah well, depends on what you think karma is.

bodyhead's avatar

If we spend all our money and then we have no money, that’s not karma. It’s factual result. If the president and his advisers decide to lie to the people to get us to agree to a war based on no factual evidence with a country that didn’t attack us, of course we are going to loose faith in the administration. It’s not exactly karma. It’s the direct results of bad decisions.

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hoosier_banana's avatar

You feelin’ froggy papabear?

mimi24's avatar

I am US/EU citizen and I feel like Hobbes in that I want to leave the USA if McCain (and God forbid, Palin) are elected.
I believe the Republican party has always manipulated the “ordinary folk“and has been intent on keeping them working hard to get by, in debt, ill informed and poorly educated. They offer the children army experience like its a big chance and then send our children off to fight their wars and make them even richer. Its a bloody serfdom, really.
The people at the top will squeeze this country dry and toss it away like an old coke can – and then they will move on… doesn’t matter where these ultra rich people live. They have no allegiance to any flag.
Will I leave America? I don’t want to but my scientist husband and I are considering it. Educated and articulate people are being treated as elitists, – the enemy- Bozo’s hate smart people and they want “folk just like them” to rule them.
Well, I truly believe America will suffer a brain drain, as the educated and so-called “elitists” get out of Dodge. Lets “see-ya” keep everything working when you don’t have any one left to fix it!

Bri_L's avatar

@mimi24 – If I may ask, were you a US citizen first or EU? I was just wondering if you grew up under EU law and gov. or US. first and what your thoughts were.

delirium's avatar

mimi, you said exactly what my family is feeling perfectly. Every single person in my family has at least one PH.D or is too young to have one yet. Every single person in my family is seriously considering moving if it comes to a mccain/palin presidency.
No matter how much I love the titanic, it’s pretty stupid to stay on the ship after i’ve warned the captain multiple times that he can’t just bowl over those ‘little’ icebergs.
If this country is done listening to the compassionate and the altruistic individuals, we can find somewhere else to help the world from. The goals of the intelligencia are mostly the same wherever we are. Use our powers for the betterment of the world.

Response moderated (Spam)
dalepetrie's avatar

papa0so – thanks, that was the funniest thing I’ve read in a long time….

apologies if you were serious

poofandmook's avatar

Hey, if Dubya could get re-elected… anybody could. That’s aside from the fact that I want Obama for at least the first four.

AstroChuck's avatar

Can I crash on your couch?

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