I want your opinion, what should the U.S do when it come to Ukraine, and Israel?

I would suggest upgrading the United Nations so that they have its own military funded by all member states, so that America doesn’t have to police the whole world on its own.

I think we should not be providing weaponry to Ukraine or Israel.

I think Ukraine should negotiate with Russia to end the conflict that has been a stalemate for more than a year. Doing so would likely involve giving up territory, but it would end the killing.

If the U.S. were to threaten to cut off aid to Israel, the genocide would cease. We choose to let it happen.

I think peace agreements in both are the desired outcome for the US. More accountability and European taking on Ukraine help, not this forever war/stalemate that we’re helping fund. Israel is politically, religiously and historically more important, but the aggression is unsavory at this point. Lets focus on Israel and give Ukraine 6 months notice that we’re done.

Since budgets and money are tight, lets start calling in debt from other countries, too. It’s time to help our own people.

The US should support its allies, and the world, for that matter, in securing peace. This looks different in these two countries. Ukraine requires our weaponry to fight the imperial oppressors, and take back their stolen land, and our diplomatic support to reform certain aspects of government, and truly enter the security sphere of the free countries of the west.

Israel requires our support to materialize a real peace process, and normalize relationships with other states in the region. They require the leadership of the United States, with the backing of the western world, to demand that Israel adhere to international law. A Palestinian state must be allowed to exist, or Israel must become a secular state with equal rights. No peace is otherwise possible.

Such difficult situations. I’m no geo-political expert, so my opinion doesn’t really mean much.

Regarding Ukraine, from what I understand the US was requiring Ukraine only use our weaponry in defensive measures, I don’t know if that has changed? In the beginning I felt like when Russia was lining up on the Ukraine border, international troupes should have gone in right away to hopefully scare Putin and prevent the war. Now, probably the only reasonable ending is a truce where Ukraine does lose some land. I would say it has to be that Russia needs to understand if they try again other countries will come in with their military to fight.

Does Russia allow social media? If so I think start putting out memes to change the sentiment of the Russian population.

As far as Israel, I think they need a cease fire. Israel said they would stop for two months (I hope I have that right) if Hamas returns the hostages and if Hamas leaders leave Gaza. They can leave scott free basically and live in exile. I think the offer should include that the cease fire will stay in place if Palestinians stop shooting rockets, and stop any aggressions towards israel.

We need to know what the Palestinians and Israelis really want regarding two-state vs one state. Most Palestinians I see interviewed seem to want one state, I don’t know for sure if their answers are said with feeling they should answer one state. They need a secret ballot vote on the issue.

Eventually, a two-state solution needs to be done, and the people who don’t like it will hopefully calm down after a while, but it probably won’t happen with Netanyahu even if the US stops giving arms to Israel. Also, I don’t see how Gaza gets better with a two-state solution. Sure, it can be rebuilt, but it will still be small. It will have an international border with Egypt and Israel. If you move Gaza and connect all of the New Palestine state, then maybe it could work.

@Smashley You think Israel has less than 100% equal rights because it’s a religious state? I don’t think so. I think Israel has some discrimination (unfortunately like so many countries) and also worries about Palestinians wanting to kill Israelis. Other Arabs in Israel have no problems. Palestinians in Israel can be citizens, be in government, go to school, use the socialized health care system, and even serve in the military if they choose to.

Being American I’m always inclined towards secular government, and in many way Israeli government is very similar to secular, being that it is a democracy and everyone in the country is free to practice their own religion. Israel is more a country for the Jewish People than it is a country for people who are Jewish religiously. It’s all intertwined. There were a Jewish people long before other religions or other national identities popped up. Some people get 100% Jewish on their DNA information when they take tests like Ancestry.

I haven’t been to Israel so my thoughts are based on what I’ve learned from Israelis in real life and youtube interviews, and other people I know who have been there.

@JLeslie – yes, I believe Israel being a religious state has something to do with the fact that it oppresses some religious minorities, and will never allow them citizenship, yet it extends citizenship happily to anyone in the world with the proper religious documents. If your are born in Israel, to the wrong parents, with the wrong religion, you are the underclass. Palestinians are not equal citizens, and do no have equal rights, access to power, nor the assurance of protection of the state. This is not citizenship, even if some of them do join the Israeli army. There were black soldiers in the Union army. Were they equal citizens?

But Israel has lots of Muslim citizens, and has had for a long time. They are law abiding citizens and respect other religions and cultures. https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/21/middleeast/arab-israeli-citizens-cmd-intl/index.html

The problem is with the Hamas people who attack Israel and Israeli citizens, as well as others. And they use themselves and their kids to destroy other people. They are a danger to themselves and everyone who doesn’t think like them.

@Smashley I was talking about the law. Under the law they can have citizenship and equal rights. I do think they sometimes come under more scrutiny, which probably feels very unfair and harassing. In practice there is some discrimination and racism, I agreed with that.

Note: I am talking about Israel, not settlements in West Bank (which I think are terrible) nor talking about Gaza.

In the Union States during the time of the Civil War the Black people in the North were free, but I would say of course there was still significant racism even in northern states. It was in pockets of the north that some Black people were well integrated and other places not so much. I’m guessing they weren’t all citizens yet, since the 14th amendment was after the war, but I don’t know the exact history regarding that.

Do you think if the country was under Palestinian Muslim control they would treat Jewish people equally? Christians Equally? Do you think it would be a Democracy? Do you think Palestine would be the most democratic secular country in the Middle East? Would women be treated equally? Gay people? What are the chances do you think?

In my opinion the Jewish Israelis and the Palestinians have both been pushed around and both have suffered great losses of life and land.

I think the conflict with Israel is a tough one, because the Israelis want and expect our support, and now the Arabs are pissed off at us. I feel like the Jewish people want us to go in and save the hostages, but it’s not an easy fix. This conflict has been going on for the longest time, at the least since I was little, in the early 70s and probably way, way longer than that. We don’t have the magical fix. There are huge demonstrations in NYC very often, where the demonstrators are blocking bridges and train stations, and large avenues.

For Ukraine, I feel like our involvement is more justified, because we’re trying to keep the big steamroller Russia from just steamrolling through Europe, starting with Ukraine. Ukraine would be just the beginning. If we gave a timeline, as someone suggested above, and said we’ll help you for another _____ months, and then we’re done, Russia would know to just bide their time and then we’d pull out and then they could just continue with their offensive.

I think the US should participate with NATO to support Ukraine in defeating Russian attempts to annex Ukraine. Ideally, Crimea would return to Ukrainian control, and Russia would drop its notions about conquering Ukraine and Poland etc.

I think the US should continue to try to limit the effect of Israeli action on civilians, but I think the whole Middle East situation calls for a lot of serious study, analysis, and diplomacy, that I don’t feel very qualified to opine very much about.

To me, what happened in Ukraine would be like if Russia (or another country) came to the US and took a few states, and said ok, we’re just going to stay here, now negotiate and you can keep the rest. How about if Russia said “we’re going to just take over Florida, Georgia, Alabama and Texas.” All the people who live there have now lost their homes. Those people can just move elsewhere, and the companies that are there just lost their property and facilities and can move elsewhere. Too bad. The US now consists of 46 states.

@jca2 Or perhaps England coming back to claim some states. I founf the article below enlightening.

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/publication/why-did-russia-give-away-crimea-sixty-years-ago

@KNOWITALL Maybe the Native Americans should get a piece, too, since it was theirs from the get-go.

@jca2 Agreed. Don’t get me on that soapbox, it’s infuriating.

Part of the agreement of NATO membership is accepting boarders as they currently are. That was supposed to keep Germany in check after WWII and actually their actions in WWI also.

Basically, you/we can’t keep going back in history.

This concept seems to me should apply to Israel and the Palestinians and Ukraine a d Russia. Fighting wars is devastating, it’s better to move forward and sort anything concerning borders diplomatically with the least disruption to the people and communities as possible. Some people will need to accept they no longer have the land of their parents, grandparents, and great grandparents, and so on. As long as they are given something to make moving forward better. It’s not simple, but societies throughout time have had devastating blows dealt to them, and the ones that have seem to have done the best move on.

@JLeslie – you acknowledge at least that Gaza is an awful situation. Yes, if you disregard those particular affronts to human rights, dignity, and peace, Israel only marginally subjugates its ethnic minorities. Yes, the leader of the state has publicly referred to the growth of Arab Israelis as a “demographic bomb”, but whatever, those particular people aren’t that subjugated.

The argument that Jewish Israel is at least morally superior to its enemies, like the Palestinians, has constantly been used to defend Israel’s immoral choices. To be a western country, you are judged by an absolute standard or morality, not a relative one.

The point is that you cannot control another people without subjugating them. People who cannot control their own destiny are slaves. Slaves will fight back, and slaves will usually have the moral high ground. Palestinian statehood will absolutely be messy, but necessary, given the impossibility of the only alternative: that Israel choose love and peace and fully integrate Palestine instead, and live together as a coalition of equals. They could be stronger together, but they will end up enemies, though at least equals on the global stage.

@Smashley I really am not trying to say Israel is better than Arab states, I am just pointing out that the people who are outraged about anti-LGBT rights and outraged about attacks on women’s rights, and outraged about systemic racism, seem to be blind to the Arab states that do just that. It doesn’t make racism in Israel ok.

I realized after a Q on fluther that most jellies see Judaism as a choice; a religious choice. That probably feeds into less support for Jewish Israelis. But, as I said, many Jews are identified genetically as Jews, like a national background, a people. Antisemites see us as a race, it doesn’t matter what we believe. 40% of Jews identify as secular, that includes in Israel.

I also have realized that people see little Gaza next to Israel, but not little Israel next to HUGE Arab and Persian Muslim states with HUGE populations that don’t like Israel there. Many of those states don’t allow Israelis in their countries, some of those states have actively oppressed and purged Christians and Jews out of their countries over the last 100 years. Trying to stick to “recent” history.

Half the Jews in Israel are Middle Eastern Jews. The other half mostly from Europe, you know the countries that actively tortured them, enslaved them, and killed them for over a century over and over again. Some from Africa, East or South Asia, and the Americas. From the Jewish perspective, fine, they left the countries they used to live in because the world wanted them out, gave them a place to go. In my opinion they gave the Jews Israel like putting lepers in one place. Then the Israelis turned the desolate land into a prosperous place and everyone wants to hate them. Again.

The Jews have lost everything over and over again, and so I empathize with Palestinians who have also lost. Like I said, both groups have suffered. Now, the Palestinians have to decide if they will accept the UN 1948 decision and the Israelis need to go back to those borders or some other agreement that will be accepted and then the Palestinians have to STOP trying to get back all of greater Palestine and Israelis STOP the settlements.

I also learned that people don’t want to see Jews as minorities or vulnerable, because of biases and stereotypes. They see Israelis and Jews as stronger, richer, and not acknowledging our losses. We lost over 60 percent of our population in Europe in the Holocaust and that doesn’t include eastern Europe pogroms. We all have relatives or friends with relatives or people we know who lost people, their homes, everything, so we have stories just like the Palestinians. Consider the two POV’s.

My question to you is, do you agree Israel has a right to exist? Or, do you think it should be Palestine run by the Palestinians? Or, do you believe in a two-state solution?

@JLeslie – I agree with most of what you believe. I think the concept of a state for a historically persecuted ethno-religious group is not a bad one, however, if they are going to be a western state, they must adhere to western values. One of which being you cannot forever deny political agency to a group of people you control.

A two state solution is the only real solution. The Palestinian state will be weak, often corrupt, and follow social mores that most of us disagree with, but ultimately it’s about having self determination, the political agency to craft their own future. The outcomes are uncertain but a future you control has a much higher potential for good results than one you don’t.

Arm Ukraine to the max!