Social Question

gorillapaws's avatar

The Michigan Primary is over and Biden may lose to Trump because of his support for Israel?

Asked by gorillapaws (30505points) 1 month ago

Over 100k voters made their way to the polls just to vote for “uncommitted,” Marianne Williamson or Dean Phillips. This seems to be mostly in protest for Biden’s support of Israel. Could Biden’s refusal to force Israel to stop the genocide in Gaza lead to Trump’s reelection? Discuss.

Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

44 Answers

Forever_Free's avatar

It is a meaningless metric.

jca2's avatar

The NY Times says it can result in Trump winning in November, if it’s a close race.

LadyMarissa's avatar

Duh…NOOOO…right wing BS!!!
The first thing 45 did after Hamas moved in was to turn his back on his good friend BiBi.
In 2020 the same people you’re listening to said Biden couldn’t get elected because he didn’t support Israel strong enough. Now he’s accused of being a coward. I’ve watched Israel & Hamas do this every few years for over 70 years. Israel does NOTHING to plug up the route they take to get in. BiBi wants the Palestinians dead & this way he can blame it on someone else!!! This is part of Israel’s civil rights movement. The right wingers were NO more successful in stopping anything than the left has been. One state does NOT decide the election so I see it as still up for grabs until the morning after Nov 3 2024 voting.

gorillapaws's avatar

@LadyMarissa “I’ve watched Israel & Hamas do this every few years for over 70 years.”

This is very different than in past conflicts. The ICJ has found that Israel is plausibly committing genocide. That’s never been the case in the past. The scale/scope is drastically different.

Zaku's avatar

Sounds like more stupidity, to me. Media lines designed to make people think there is a meaningful daily drama about Biden vs Trump, to draw audience to their pathetic nonsense.

Biden isn’t running against Trump in the primaries. The primaries say very little about such a vote.

KNOWITALL's avatar

Everyone knows I support Israel BUT not in genocide. I fully support those voting in protest and if it were Trump in office, I’d feel the same.
Too many Jewish people agree it’s genocide and insulting to their heritage. We can make Israel listen but we are not doing so and tgat’s on us.

janbb's avatar

Biden is between a rock and a hard place on this issue politically but of course, morally, the US should not be enabling the genocide in Palestine. I also think Netanyahu is not Biden’s puppet. However, with the threat of a Trump dictatorship looming, that would not make me vote for a third party candidate.

And I agree with @Zaku that looking at the tea leaves constantly for portents just plays into the media frenzy.

seawulf575's avatar

I don’t believe the war in Israel is the highest issue for most people. Economy, southern border, healthcare, crime….all these are of far more importance than helping Ukraine or stepping into the Israel/Hamas issue. Hell, Biden’s cognitive decline is a huge issue. Seeing Joe Biden along side Williamson and Phillips, voters already know what they are getting with Biden. More open borders, more screwed up economy, more crime, more of all the stuff he has brought in his first term. Getting into 2 wars was another gift from Biden and he is mismanaging both. But again, voters look more at what they are getting hit with day after day. So in THAT primary, Biden becomes almost the last choice for many.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@seawulf575 MI has a lot of Muslims though who are refusing to vote for Biden, at least this primary, in protest. I’m not sure that will affect policy decisions or the November election. I’m also curious what Trump has to say about what he would do.

*Arab Americans, not Muslims, to be PC.

Cupcake's avatar

A lot (most?) people I know won’t vote for Biden again. Whether over COVID, healthcare, disability, student loans, genocide… I also think people who tend to vote democrat (whether formally affiliated or not) are tired of being told to vote blue no matter what. Gen Z are definitely not the generation to do that. Muslims likely won’t do that. People disabled from a wildly uncontrolled global pandemic won’t. If the DNC won’t pick a viable candidate, surely that’s not the fault of general Americans. I refuse to take any responsibility for the fact that voting for Biden opens the door to Trump. I’m disgusted with Biden and won’t vote for him.

ragingloli's avatar

I doubt the issue is important enough to enough people to offset both the “I vote for him because he is the democratic candidate” and “I vote for him to prevent the orangutan from becoming president again” reasons for voting.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Cupcake I’m seeing an awful lot of minorities saying they won’t vote Biden due to the criminal immigrants and crime in urban liberal areas.

Dutchess_III's avatar

How could he stop them?

MrGrimm888's avatar

Yes. This issue, could cost Biden the office.

It’s important to remember who’s going to be voting, and why.
Most Trumpers are ride or die.
No shortcomings, actions, crimes or lies will sway his sheeps’ awe of him.

People who are at least thinking about a candidate other than Trump, are more informed, and are actually analyzing the plethora of different variables.

So. We have two VERY different voter bases.
Trump does not have to earn anything. Despite his countless lies, failures, crimes, and general lack of any credibility.

Biden, has to earn most of his votes. He has the handicap of being the incumbent. So people have his successes and failures, fresher in their minds.

Biden has to blow his own horn, and explain to the public that he’s working on the right stuff, and keeping everyone happy.

The DNC, should be trying to reach every ear that will listen to explain the fact that THEY are not who is stopping border security.
They are not removing women’s rights.
They ARE supporting Ukraine.
The southern border needs to be addressed. But that is NOT as important as the war in Ukraine.
If Russia rolls into Eastern Europe, the immigration problem will be small potatoes.
You can safely bet, that China will likely become even more aggressive in the “South China Sea,” if the west is busy with Russia.
A person would have to be pretty ignorant, to think that Americans would be just fine, if we pull out of NATO.
The chain reaction will make trade almost impossible.
It will take a robust economy, to survive the next 5–10 years.
Unfortunately. Most countries have had to increase military spending. If things get really bad, they can’t eat mortars or drones.
Swaths of Northeastern Africans, are already in an emergency food shortage due to Russia stopping Ukraine from exporting wheat/grain.

In my life, the democratic party, has always been a bit less in unison than the republican party.

Third party candidates, often have been center, to far left.

Conservatives, are usually in lockstep on most issues. Probably because most are Christians, so their values are similar.

Caravanfan's avatar

Primary voting means nothing. I agree with protest votes in the primary. But it is true that Biden is super unpopular (I’m a mainstream neoliberal Democrat and I can’t stand him). But he’s not a threat to democracy and Trump is. So my hope is that people recognize that.

RocketGuy's avatar

I hope pro-Palestinian voters realize that Trump would go with whatever Netanyahu wanted (which seems like no holds barred for the complete destruction of Hamas, no regard for Palestinians at all).

Dutchess_III's avatar

GA @Caravanfan. The lesser of 2 evils, anyway.

MrGrimm888's avatar

I have rarely been ok, that the US supports Israel so much.
I firmly believe that Israeli government behavior, would have been drastically different if not for the US publicly backing them.

America, is the only reason that Israel hasn’t been overrun by their piece loving neighbors.

In my opinion, the right-wing of Israel’s government has always taken advantage of the relationship. It’s entirely a one way relationship. There are many human rights violations, and war crimes, that Israel commits that are anti-American.
We wouldn’t be happy with Israel, if they were a different country.

The attack that started it all, is a direct result of the dynamics in the Israeli/Palestinian relationship. Iran just gives them the money to act on their desires.

I don’t hate Israel. I just think that a Jewish state, in that region, is not a realistically sustainable thing.
Israel has made a mess, of a bad situation.

I have already heard talks about Netanyahu wanting to expand settlements into “Gazan” territory, after he kills as many Gazans as possible.

We need to simply give them an ultimatum. Try harder, to coexist with the Muslims in the area. I know, it’s really hard.
Firstly. They need to completely stop the military aggressiveness.
They will be lucky, if they can repair their relationships with their neighbors AT ALL.
We can safely assume that the IDF has created a whole new generation of future “terrorists.”
So. There will be bombs at check points and busstops, like there used to be. Maybe they were making some progress, with coexistence.
Well. That progress is likely all gone.
Muslim nations, in the region, ALL have some beef with Israel.

Destroying Gaza, was VERY shortsighted.

flutherother's avatar

Support for Israel is one thing and support for Israel’s actions in Gaza which by any meaningful definition of the phrase are war crimes is something else. That Biden has not felt able to take a moral stance on this issue makes it difficult for me .to support him. It gives the wrong impression of what America stands for.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@flutherother GA. I also think Trump could get thru to Bibi though.

gorillapaws's avatar

Thanks for the great answers thus far.

@Dutchess_III “How could he stop them?”

There are many things Biden could do (in order of severity):
1. Tell Netanyahu to stop, “or else.” (and actually mean it)
2. In the UN: stop vetoing resolutions calling for a ceasefire.
3. Stop supplying military aid to Israel.
4. Stop supplying all foreign aid to Israel.
5. Send in a military convoy with humanitarian aid to Gaza and or air drops of humanitarian aid.
6. Blockade Israel from all air/sea/land until it complies with the requirements of the ICJ.
7. Use force against genocidal IDF units.
8. Declare war on Israel.

As a signatory to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, not only is the US obligated to not assist in a genocide, we’re actually obligated to do everything we can to prevent it.

janbb's avatar

I’m wondering: has anyone heard Trump say anything about what he would do regarding the Israeli genocide of Palestine? I haven’t heard it.

JLeslie's avatar

Uncommitted during the primary was a reasonable way to send a message that people are upset with what is happening in Gaza. Now, we need to hope the same leaders and whoever advised people to do that (probably social media was a big part of it) will switch to messaging that they have to vote for Biden in the general election, because Trump will be fully aligned with Netanyahu, and Trump wants to be a dictator.

Who knows who was at the root of the idea to vote uncommitted. It could have been Trump supporters. I think most Americans have no idea what primaries are. Most who voted uncommitted probably had no idea they could do that two months ago. Now, we have the risky situation a lot of the same Americans will not vote in the general, and give Trump more chance to win. We have seen this scenario before.

People have trouble switching gears and people tend to vote based on emotion not logic and many people don’t understand how the elections work. I still have trouble understanding parts of our election process and I was born and raised in the US, had a government class in Jr. High (I hated it) and I spend time looking up our rules about elections. The US has an extremely low turn out for primaries, most people don’t even know when they are happening.

I want more done to help the Palestinians, but so many jellies are using the words genocide and war crimes regarding Israel and there is a very good chance what they have done does not rise to the definition of either word. Israel constantly consults with lawyers who are experts. I personally know someone who was a retired JAG officer who spent most of his career working with NATO & EU counterparts on legal issues, and he said the media and general public don’t understand the definitions of proportionate and other words being thrown around. That is blatantly obviously true. I certainly don’t rule out Israel might have crossed some lines, but most people have the line in the wrong place regarding war and how legal scholars evaluate it.

For sure the Gazan leadership, Hamas, committed war crimes, there is no question about that.

Biden and Harris are asking for a cease fire and relief for the Palestinians. Not sure if that falls on deaf ears. I understand that is not the same as withholding support to the Israelis militarily.

I saw an Israeli official say Israel has massive amounts of supplies and food ready to go into Gaza, but part of the problem is the UN not being ready to help distribute it all. I figure the truth is somewhere in the middle of all of the info coming from the situation.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Relevant.
There is video, of IDF forces carrying out a mission in a Gazan hospital. The presumed special forces of Israel were disguised as Palestinian medical workers.
THAT, IS a war crime.

The IDF used many unguided bombs, in their offensive.
Given our knowledge of IDF capabilities, we KNOW they are not being careful.

They “accidentally” killed there own hostages, when they were waving white flags.

They have a really bad habit of telling the Gazans to avoid areas, just to kill them anyway in places deemed safe for civilians.

Most recently, a mob of starving Palestinians were desperately trying to get food from a support truck, when IDF struck the crowd. Many were killed, or injured.
Although the IDF claims that most casualties were from crowds stampeding from the attack, there are dozens and dozens of people with gunshots and shrapnel injuries.

ALL efforts by Bibi, seem aimed at killing as many Gazans as possible. It’s not lost on those who know Netanyahu, including many of his own people, that he is using this opportunity to “trim the grass.” I firmly believe that Bibi wants to kill ALL Palestinians. I wager the feeling, if it wasn’t before, is mutual now.

They are systematically killing large civilian populations.
Their actions, in spite of the protest of most of the world, have resulted in the total destruction of the small wannabe nation, and those who still breathe are being moved from place, trying to be where Israel tells them is safe.
There are catastrophic problems with the surviving Gazans, in regards to lacking potable water, and food.

It’s hard to see footage of people getting shot at while running with a bag of flour, and not appreciate the situation.

From what it sounds like, the people are SO desperate for food, they overran the IDF escorts, and they opened fire on the crowd. Which, honestly, is happening FAR too often to be coincidence or accident.

To some Israeli people, call it what you want, but they want to kill all Palestinians. Because, they (both) have taught generations of their people, to hate one another.

If Bibi is somehow allowed to rule any future Gaza, we will really see some oppression.
It was already practically an apartheid, before the “war.”

They oppressed their neighbors, and underestimated them. The attack by Hamas was a known threat. However. With hatred, comes dehumanization.
When the Israelis dehumanized the Gazans, they underestimated them.
They grew lazy about their defense, and apparently IDF leaders didn’t prepare for the attack because it was deemed “too complicated, and ambitious,” for the “unorganized and incompetent terrorists” planning it.

Now. I am not in a hurry, to call this genocide. But. It has a lot of symptoms, of genocide.

The “truth” will be determined by the winners, just like all of history.

JLeslie's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I have no argument with you. I don’t think any of us know the full truth. The legal experts can decide if war crimes have been committed. For sure the media doesn’t communicate all of the circumstances and rationale behind the various missions.

I don’t want Palestinians to die. I think any of us could be in a situation with horrible leaders and vulnerable in a war situation. I identify with the Palestinians as much as I do the Israelis. I feel like most jellies don’t identify with the Israelis or understand what they have been through. The Palestinians and Israelis are very similar in their anxieties and fears and generational trauma.

I do have one question for you. You don’t think the Israelis could have killed quadruple the Palestinians that they have? It doesn’t make the extent of the deaths ok, but my guess is from an Israeli military perspective they have saved many Palestinian lives.

As far as proportionality, I would assume Israel can show why the deaths were “reasonable” for the mission.

I saw on youtube an impromptu with an IDF soldier who had been in Gaza. The journalist didn’t know the guy had been in Gaza. He said children and women go ahead of Hamas and he doesn’t know if they want to participate or are forced to, but of course children are too young to be responsible for any decision anyway. Here’s the video if you are interested. Minute 12:30 if you want to fast forward.
https://youtu.be/SnhrysywQvM?si=hpqJLu9-5bsApr2k

My problem is I don’t understand how the Gaza situation changes even with a two state solution. Even if they rebuild the city/state. I’m in favor of the Palestinians having their own country, but what I care about even more is they have safety, freedom, and opportunity.

Bibi is an extremist and plays to the extremist wing in his party. That is certainly a problem.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Please forgive me, if I come off argumentative.
I was just saying that we have factual evidence that the IDF has committed one war crime, and it’s on video.

If Bibi had his way, I’m pretty sure he would kill more Gazans.
He’s not a psychopath, in my opinion. He just wants to protect Israel. As I’ve said, I would be irrationally pissed too.
But that’s why people have allies, to help keep them out of trouble.
Israel’s allies, and even the larger and more radicalized groups of Muslims in the region denounced the attack by Hamas.

It is precisely the ferocity, and scale of the Israeli response, that has the international community upset.

As you say, the IDF likely has the capability of killing many more innocent people. However. As I mentioned, the use of unguided bombs is a brazenly transparent act. The world watches such things.
Israel didn’t come out and say they were carpet bombing and using scorched Earth tactics.
The media, and many nations did their own research.

When the IDF commanders were confronted by journalists about why they wouldn’t use guided bombs to minimize civian casualties, they said the unguided bombs were better at destroying possible tunnel networks. A concept disputed by many military analysts, as the tunnels were thought to have been far too deep for conventional bombs to reach.
It’s important to remember that in the first wave of Israeli attacks, their position was that they didn’t know where their hostages were. They aren’t stupid. The thought process is clearly displayed. They didn’t care, if they killed the hostages.
At least Bibi, and his cronies.

It’s impossible for me to believe that they could justify flooding the tunnel systems they found, if they really cared about recovering the hostages.

I have read, that more Jewish settlements are planned now in disputed territory, whilst the military side works.

So. One could easily perceive that Netanyahu is using this atrocious act, to justify adding greater distance between the Palestinians and Israel.
At this point, they have walked most of Gaza down.
Intelligence indicates that possibly large numbers of remaining hostages are in surrounding countries. We obviously found some, outside of Gaza.
So. If claims by the IDF, that there are no hostages in tunnels, and they have irreparably damaged Hamas, then why can’t they let up on the remaining Palestinians?

The US supports Israel in more ways, than financially.
The IDF boasts one of the more modern, and capable militaries in the region. Largely because of US military aid.
Israel’s “Iron Dome,” is augmented by US “Patriot” missile systems.

Without our help, they wouldn’t have the abilities they have, and they certainly couldn’t get away with being so aggressive without American support.

@JLeslie I suspect we both want the same thing. We just have different ways of preferable ways to achieve those goals.
The debates over two states, or one state, are moot points currently.
Gaza now resembles Northern Syria. Another tortured, war torn place, right next to Israel.

Whatever is left of Gaza, will require massive aid to even start to recover. People are about to start starving in huge numbers.

The international community has to step in, like a referee, and call the fight here. It’s over.

The reality is that Netanyahu CANNOT be the one in charge of Gaza, post war.
Another cold reality is that the way Bibi handled this, just exponentially swelled the ranks of anti-Israel/Muslim extremists in the entire ME.

And yes. It’s Netanyahu’s fault that people are mad at Biden. It’s actually really fucked up.
America threw itself behind Israel from the beginning.
Biden told the world that Israel had a right to defend themselves.
Netanyahu has been far more cruel, than Biden expected. And instead of reigning in their behavior, Bibi has been steadfast about keeping his foot on Hamas’s throat, even if he has to kill thousands of the Palestinians to take out an estimated Hamas army of 40,000 at most.

It’s a cluster fuck, for sure.

It saddens me, beyond articulation, that there is SO much killing in this world.

I do feel that both Gazans, and Isrealis, should be ashamed of their relationship. They both perpetuate hatred of the other.

JLeslie's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I still don’t understand how Gaza can be much different unless the leadership DRASTICALLY changes. Not just getting rid of Hamas and Netanyahu. Gaza will be the size it is unless the Gazans move to a different area. No one ever gives me a reasonable answer when I ask this. If there are two states, Gaza will have an international border with Israel and Egypt. Egypt doesn’t let the Palestinians in either. Israel will maintain the border like almost all countries handle border crossings with antagonistic neighbors. How does the border change if there is some sort of official two state peace treaty if the people just won’t stop hating and fighting.

Israelis don’t go to Gaza all of these years since the Jews were dragged out of Gaza almost 20 years ago.

Honestly, more upsetting to me than Israel blowing up buildings and harming people, is that no other countries are offering to take Gazans in temporarily. Israel is trying to protect its own safety once and for all, and we also could possibly argue it can protect other reasonable ME nations and western countries and the other Arab countries just sit back and blame Israel for Palestinian deaths.

Did Israel flood the tunnels? I remember there was talk they were going to do it, but I don’t know if it was ever done.

The iron dome keeps Palestinians alive in my opinion, because if every rocket made its way to Israel, the IDF would be doing more to pummel Gaza a long time ago.

I’m hoping a cease fire is reached soon. Even if it happens, the destruction looks to be massive. What will happen in the future? It’s a mess. Are the Gazans just going to stay in the rubble? I understand why they are reluctant to leave. It’s awful.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^It’s an absolute tragedy. In ALL aspects. To think that all of this seems so avoidable, and it’s so common there, is deflating.

In my opinion, the region will NEVER know peace.

Israel’s neighbors aren’t doing awesome.
Egypt is still trying to get their clock running, after the “Arab Spring.” After so many problems with Muslim extremists, I can understand why Egypt wouldn’t want to become a refuge for the Palestinians.
Northern Syria is a war zone, on top of a catastrophic earthquake, on top of civil war, and a battle ground for mercenaries and religious zealots. South is not a great place either.

Lebanon… No comment.

Jordan. Doesn’t want the drama.
Doesn’t support Israel in this war. Maybe they can help form leadership for the “new” Gaza, in the future.

Turkey, and Southern European neighbors are already overrun with refugees from other conflicts in the region.

Sadly there are currently maybe billions of refugees around the world, for one reason or another.

Iran, and Russia, are the main external agitators in the region.
The US, certainly didn’t help much, but at least there is no current American conflict in the region.
With the exception of US bases in the region, and western flagged ships in The Red Sea.

Our troops are under constant threat, with the region riled up.

We have already struck targets outside of Iran. Primarily in Yemen.
But. The US is not seeing the battlefield the same as it was 10 years ago.
Wisely. We have not gotten dragged I to a war with Iran.
Their military and power has grown considerably. They are heavily invested in the type of drone technology we see stopping the Russia army, and it gives experts pause.

It could be OUR frigates, or even our carriers, if Iran can duplicate similar successes as the Ukraines on state of the art Russian navy vessels.

Russia is still paying for mercenaries in Syria.

This is trouble we don’t need.

gorillapaws's avatar

@JLeslie “I do have one question for you. You don’t think the Israelis could have killed quadruple the Palestinians that they have? It doesn’t make the extent of the deaths ok, but my guess is from an Israeli military perspective they have saved many Palestinian lives.”

I think this line of reasoning is pretty broken. For argument’s sake, what if Netanyahu set up death camps and marched Palestinians into gas chambers? How would the world react to those optics? How would support for Israel look from the Zionists in the US in particular? If Netanyahu did that and let’s say you still had friends who were Zionists even while that was ongoing, what would you think of them?

The point is that there’s a limit to how egregious Israel can be in its genocide. Just look at the Flour Massacre where starving Gazans were gunned down by the IDF. They can say, that they trampled each other, or were run over by trucks, or the shots were warning shots or that Hamas killed them (despite bodies being riddled with bullets). They have plausible deniability so that their supporters can continue to believe the fantasy that Israel is a moral nation, and not on par with other genocidal regimes. If the situation were reversed, we’d all have no problem calling this a genocide if Palestinians were denying aid to a starving Jewish civilian population who are gunned down when the aid trucks roll in.

With all due respect to your JAG officer pal, but they’re a total fucking idiot if they’re uncertain about the legal situation in Gaza. It’s illegal to assassinate unarmed civilians with white flags. It’s illegal to force healthcare workers out of a hospital at gunpoint who are carrying for infants in incubators, prevent them from taking them with them, promising the infants will be cared for only to find their rotting corpses left abandoned in the incubators. Israel has annihilated Gaza. The IDF were using Israa University as a military base and detention facility. There were no Hamas inside. So why did they demolish it, if not part of the plan to erase all civil society.

And as for temporarily relocating Gazans? That’s ridiculous. They’ll never be allowed to return. They had a fucking voluntary migration conference with 26 Cabinet and Knesset members in attendance (including Itamar Ben-Gvir, the national security minister). I’m not sure if you’re aware of the historical context of “voluntary migrations” but starving people, destroying their homes and all civil infrastructure, and then killing them in masse isn’t a voluntary migration.

Israel has deployed over 2 Hiroshima bombs’ worth of explosives into an area (141 square miles) less than half of Hiroshima. (349 square miles). Greater than 33% of the population are less than 15 years old.

But just to really hammer home the point, because it blows my mind that people can read the same news as me and come away thinking this is 50/50, Here is the legal definition of genocide:

“In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

1. Killing members of the group;
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”

Israel only needs to be found to be violating one of these and yet it’s doing them all except for 5.

The hardest part of proving genocide is to prove intent, and Israel’s leaders through their actions and their statements have made this sentiment crystal clear. Furthermore they have a duty to punish the calls for genocide among their population which they’ve done the opposite of. I’m happy to rattle off quote after quote from leaders cheering on the genocide if you doubt this to be true. The ICJ ruled that Israel was likely committing genocide, and understand that such a ruling was the furthest they were able to rule by law. There’s an ongoing genocide case that can take years to work through the court, but the preliminary hearing met the burden of proof for the court to find the maximum allowable verdict and issue the orders to Israel to cease it’s genocide and preserve the evidence for the main trial which would have the authority to find that Israel did commit genocide.

JLeslie's avatar

@gorillapaws I talked with my JAG acquaintance when the war first started, I don’t know his current opinion. My only point is how things appear might not be exactly how things are and people misunderstand terms being used.

I think most of the world feels the killing and destruction is too much now. We all want the Palestinians to have some relief. We also want the hostages back.

Gaza is a densely populated area, so the collateral damage is going to be immense. That’s why any war in the area should be avoided if possible. Hamas invited the war. If it is at all possible, I think Israel should not be bombing or shooting and give a deadline for hostages to be returned and the other Arab states pressure Hamas AND provide a place for Gazans to go temporarily. The Polish people opened their homes to Ukrainians. The people in West Bank and Jordan can’t open their homes and the governments set up some shelter for the Gazans? Then have the IDF, and allies for that matter, go in and get Hamas and whatever else needs to be done. Of course part of the problem is distinguishing Hamas from civilians.

JLeslie's avatar

@gorillapaws The Jews left Denmark to go to Sweden for safety from the Nazis. 90% of Danish Jews survived the Holocaust. By contrast, 90% of Polish Jews were killed. In parts of Europe 30,000 Jews were killed a day for days on end.

Most of the Jews you know now in your life exist because they or their families left Europe or Asia when Pogroms or the Holocaust were happening.

When Trump was president most of the Jews I know were trying evaluate what would have to happen to trigger leaving and evaluating what countries they could go to.

When I say I want the Palestinians to leave Gaza, it’s because I want them to live. I also want them to be able to return if they want to and have their own state. I can’t speak for Netanyahu. He’s controlled by the extremists from what I can tell.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Lord. I can’t read that many letters!

Caravanfan's avatar

@JLeslie Netanyahu isn’t “controlled” by the extremists. He is an extremist and a quasi-fascist.

JLeslie's avatar

@Caravanfan Fair statement.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@JLeslie is, by my estimation, a good person.

Sometimes. “Good” people have trouble seeing the “bad,” in others.

This whole thing, was set up to achieve precisely what has occurred.
Iran/Hammas baited Israel into this “overreaction.”
Israel responded as their enemies wanted.

This happens in sports all the time. Two players have an issue, so one shoves the other. Then. The shoved guy reacts more violent in response, and he gets the foul.

Life isn’t fair.

Israel put itself in it’s current position by their own actions.
They basically had the best regional support in EVER, after the Hammas attack, to destroy Hammas (a Muslim group.)

But. It had to be done strategically, and with great calculation, and most importantly they needed to at least appear not to be targeting civilians.

Israel, instead of grabbing a scalpel, grabbed a hammer.

They had been heinously attacked. They had citizens taken hostage.
It was fucking crazy. I saw…

The Muslim world was watching extremely closely, and with bias.
I’ll just say it.
This was a “no win” situation, for Israel, AND Hammas.
But. If Hammas needs to bleed, to eliminate the Israelis, that was clearly OK with them.

The trap was set. Israel is now stuck.

I know a big problem for people like me is, what’s the endgame?

Israel attacked Gaza, as if Gaza attacked them.
That is oversimplified a bit, but Hammas was alledged to be a small army.

It’s hard for me to now see any response Israel made, as not receiving scrutiny from at least the Muslim world.

Perhaps knowing that no response would be appreciated, Bibi decided to just go all out.

For possibly all of history, people will reasonably question whether Netanyahu went way too far.

I can’t speak for anyone else.
But. When I first heard of the attack, I was obviously really sad for Israel, but I was terrified for the Palestinians.
Maybe that doesn’t make sense.

MrGrimm888's avatar

When I was bouncing, I got sucker punched, or hit with bottles. It was part of the job.

I was 6’5, about 315 lbs. I was not fat. When men attacked me, or women, I couldn’t just beat them ro death. Even though I was capable, and maybe the punishment wouldn’t have been so bad because I was a LEO.

I was the corny “cooler.”

Coolers, can’t get hot.

Coolers deescalate.

IF. IF violence is required, it needs to be just enough to achieve my goal as it is intended by the law for me to do. No more.
Sadly. I have footage of me carrying screaming white girls out of clubs, beating my back and spitting. The optics, are unfortunate.
However. I had to constantly be wary of going overboard on a person.

Israel, like me, knew they are being watched, and knew they would face harsh scrutiny in cases that require violence.

Situations in life, are often without a real solution.
I don’t envy Israel. But I currently look at them, like I would have a fellow officer who stepped over the line. Shaking my head…

JLeslie's avatar

@MrGrimm888 What you seem to fail to see is Israel always uses a hammer. Israel “feels” it has to fight back hard to deter more attacks and because NEVER AGAIN. This time, it is to end Hamas once and for all, but more needs to be done to help the Palestinians in Gaza. Israel is very small, and almost everyone in Israel has serious trauma in their families of being tortured or murdered or starved, enslaved, used for testing. You might respond with more force to protect yourself if you perceive the threat to your life to be eminent. People seem to understand that regarding the Palestinians. You know they blow themselves up to kill Israelis because supposedly that’s all they have to fight back. People excuse it as an act of desperation, but refuse to see the Israelis are desperate too. They are constantly attacked. It is a stupid stale mate with stubborn people running the show.

It’s ridiculous that the conflict between the Palestinians and Israelis have gone on this long. Usually, by now, something would have been done so both groups could move forward. The more I listen to people talk about the history and their negativity about the Israelis, the more I think those people don’t agree with Israel’s right to exist. They talk about there being very few Jews in the area of Israel when the UN divided the lands 50/50. That the Jews were receiving a disproportionate amount and that the Jews from Europe and the US and other parts of the ME have no claim to live there.

Did the UN just simply make the wrong decision? They didn’t predict the hate the Palestinians would have for the Jews coming from other places. The Palestinians will say the Israelis treated them terribly in the beginning of the Jewish state, and there are definitely examples of that being true, but even if the Israelis had been wonderful, the Palestinians don’t want to give up any of the land, most want one Palestine. There are some who want a two state solution, but my impression is most want Israel gone, from the river to the sea.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^To be clear, I believe that Israel of course has the right to exist.

My opinion, is that a Jewish state, is an unsustainable thing in the ME.
As you know, there’s an ancient hatred that the Muslim world has for them.

This is why Israel would never agree to a one state solution, as a democratic nation. Prior to the attack, they could have shared the land. That would mean giving Palestinians the right to vote equally, in Israeli elections.
The Israelis are outnumbered, by their Arab counterparts. So. It is likely that the Muslim majority would eventually make it a Palestine. Not just the current “Palestine,” acknowledgement by over 100 nations. But a change the history books again, moment. Then. The outnumbered Zionists would probably lose the entire former state if Israel.

It’s not like the Jews are bad people, in my opinion. Many people lay claim to that region, in regards to It’s religious value.
Nobody really has a “right,” to the land. Regardless of who claims what, history is written by the winners.

There is no such thing as “right,” or “wrong.” Only who is alive, and who is dead.

Regardless of “what would be fair,” there is “what is feasible?”

I do not envy the Israelis.
With all due respect, I am VERY relieved that there are no Muslim countries close to the US mainland. Why?
IRRECONCILABLE DIFFERENCES

There are undoubtedly millions of great, loving, caring, peaceful Muslims around the world.
But. Just like with any powerful religion, it leads to extremist zealots. (We have Christian zealots, currently trying to ruin America.)

Israel could flex on it’s neighbors, and make sure that the region knew that Israel was very militarily capable, AND had the backing of the west.
That strategy kind of worked, but only for the Israeli citizens.

Over time, where Israel could not succeed in diplomacy, they would use military mite.
Eventually, the Palestinians were walled off and yes a sort of apartheid state was implementing.

Absolutely NOBODY in the region did anything but teach one another to hate the other, for decades. Both sides had unrealistic expectations for any negotiations.
I cannot think of a nation, or group of people who hasn’t tried to bring them to the table.

When the US got heavily involved in the first Iraqi war, the US made it clear that any attempt at fighting them was futile. The first Iraq War was really more like an alien invasion. The US achieved Air superiority quickly, and then it was over. That Iraqi army, was drastically outgunned by American military technology.
It didn’t seem “fair,” to many, that the US could do SO much damage mainly through air strikes.
Timothy McVeigh, OKC bomber, was a tank gunner in that war.
He wrote of how his tank was equipped with a plow.
In at least one occasion, his unit engaged a large trench of Iraqi soldiers. McVeigh claimed that they used the plows to run over the trenches, burying hundreds of men alive.
He talked of using thermal scopes on his heavy machine gun, and how easy/sad it was to kill so many men.

Obviously. The US eventually was in multiple military conflicts, across the region.

Similarly to the current Israeli situation, the world took notice of the bombings of civilians.
The drone attacks eventually really picked up, and people were being killed without knowing they were even targets.

There was the “Arab Spring.”

As time has gone by, the US has permanently damaged it’s relationship with the Muslim world.

It’s very important to note that the Israeli government, were building settlements on land that was not theirs. Which, because of the circumstances, is basically military expansion.

Over time, the Israeli government’s grip on the Palestinians got squeezed tighter and tighter.

The Hammas attack, as terrible as it was, focused on some of those exact settlements on disputed land. It was not by accident.
Many Israeli people, after the attack, complained the IDF prioritized the disputed settlements.

I will never opine that Israel deserved the attack.
But. They should have been more wary. They know how they treat the Gazans. They know Hammas exists in Gaza.

I have said before, that Israel should be relocated to somewhat in the US west.
The climate is similar, and they wouldn’t be surrounded by people who hate them.
Plus. The US could further separate itself from ME politics.

If Israel was suddenly given to the Muslims, it’s not like they wouldn’t fight over the land for the rest of time.
It’s a volatile place.
As long as there are Christians, Jews, and Muslims, the land will be fought over.

At THIS point I think that the Israeli government has damaged their already perilous relationships with it’s neighbors, to the point that they will not recover.

The US military has, by many experts’ claim, not kept up with the current battlefield.
A war with China, is considered inevitable (likely in the next 5–10 years,) and the US needs to focus on that. China has life-sized models of our aircraft carriers in their desserts. We have the photos.

The US cannot afford to help Israel, if they get themselves in too deep.
Our government is barely functioning. We can’t help ANYONE, unless our own house is put in order.

The newest threat is the drone evolution. This allows almost any power, to cheaply compete with a military like the US’s.

I am VERY concerned that Israel will eventually be attacked by a combination of their neighbors.
Israeli air defense, is top of the line. But it is extremely expensive, and as it is mostly missile dependent.
There systems would be completely overwhelmed, in a massive drone attack.
Drones like Iran, and Syria produce in disturbing number AND quality.

With every drone the US/Israel shoots down, their enemies are learning how to counter what brought them down.

I would give anything for world peace. In reality, that it a fantasy.

JLeslie's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Too much to respond to on your last post in it’s entirety, but I will say these few things.

As far as I know the attacks on Oct 7th were not on “disputed lands.” Israel got out of Gaza almost 20 years ago, Israelis were dragged out of the settlements that were in Gaza at the time. At least one of the kibbutzes that was attacked was established in 1946. In the West Bank there are settlers. I completely agree the settlements are an aggressive act and wrong.

I disagree Israel is an apartheid state. Palestinians living in Israel can be citizens and can vote if they become citizens. Some of them choose not to. They can be in the government, go to university, access to healthcare, be judges, serve in the military, how is that apartheid? I do agree there is some racism, and also a certain amount of self segregation.

I agree that democracy is a problem for Israel because of the numbers. The Arab population grows at a fast rate.

I also wanted to clarify when I talked about people having empathy for Palestinians doing horrific acts in desperation, but not for the Israelis, I personally am not ok with it on either side, I just don’t like the hypocrisy. Everyone says Israel is strong, but Israel is at the same time tiny and vulnerable and Jews are extremely vulnerable in the world. We are targeted over and over again. Muslims in the US are similarly vulnerable, but they have countless Muslim countries as possible places to go to if they were being targeted en masse. God forbid.

As far as the US getting involved, I doubt we will be sending any soldiers over there any time soon.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^I said I don’t envy them. I don’t have a clue how to “fix” the problem. In my opinion, religion is the main factor in ALL the issues that the entire region faces.

I will stick with my apartheid statement. I don’t know of a closer word.

Times, regions, people change.
I do not believe that a Jewish state can exist there, currently.

The Israelis will never be loved, by their Muslim neighbors. NEVER. Not EVER EVER.

The strategy of existing through military dominance, is not sustainable.

The Jewish people have had a rough time, throughout history.

There are countless groups that have been pushed into extinction, or that have no home.
The Kurds, are the world’s largest religious group without a country.
The Kurds fought maybe better than anyone, against groups like ISIS. They had practically established a caliphate in Northern Syria, until Russian involvement.
The Kurds deserve a home too.

But. “Deserve” has nothing to do with reality. Or the ME.

We don’t have to send our troops to Israel, to put them in mortal danger. Since Israel started pummeling Gaza, ALL US bases, ships, and troops in the region have been under near constant attack.

It’s also extremely important that ALL western nations, learn that all of this involvement in the ME, is not reducing but multiplying the amount of Muslim extremists who would wish “death to Israel! death to the US!”

Ultimately. This could be a point of no return for Israel.

If the US keeps enabling Israel, we will end up on the Muslim world’s shit list, with them.
We are already linked at the hip.

Answer this question

Login

or

Join

to answer.
Your answer will be saved while you login or join.

Have a question? Ask Fluther!

What do you know more about?
or
Knowledge Networking @ Fluther