General Question

watchman220's avatar

If Partial Borth Abortion is legal...would you perform the murderous procedure?

Asked by watchman220 (416points) November 1st, 2008

WHY or WHY NOT? Please describe your position in detail. Thanks

Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

105 Answers

cdwccrn's avatar

absolutely not.

eambos's avatar

I’m not a doctor, so no, I would not do the medical procedure.

arnbev959's avatar

Loaded question!

gimmedat's avatar

The decision to terminate a pregnancy is totally the decision of the pregnant woman. If I was qualified to perform that procedure (or any other for that matter) I would view it as my responsibility to provide the service that is lawfully protected to my client.

PupnTaco's avatar

I’m not Welsh so I can’t really answer.

AstroChuck's avatar

Yes, I would. I’m against any kind of borth.

watchman220's avatar

Apparently you are against speellingg too.

PupnTaco's avatar

^ now that’s comedy

Sueanne_Tremendous's avatar

Borth = Beet Soup

Partial Borth = I do not want to know.

AstroChuck's avatar

@PnT -
Ah, the clueless religious right. Ain’t they cute?

gimmedat's avatar

So I don’t want to have anything with beet soup, but I will stand up for a woman’s reproductive rights :).

gailcalled's avatar

It’s “borscht,” friends and delicious cold with a dollop of sour cream, in the heat of the summer.

gailcalled's avatar

And one drank it until he borscht.

watchman220's avatar

I stand up for my right to reproduce with my wife. And I stand up for the rights of the reproduced to not be murdered.

AstroChuck's avatar

But what does that have to do with partial borths? And do partial borths have to do with having a babby?

gimmedat's avatar

Good deal watchman. Hopefully you respect the right of others to hold different opinions. Out of curiosity, what are your motivations for asking the question?

nocountry2's avatar

By using the terms “partial birth” (not a legit medical term) and “murderous”, you have effectively loaded this question to imply that by choosing to perform the procedure indicates you are a murderer.

If the question were re-worded to read, “If late-term abortion were legal, would you perform the medical procedure?”, my answer is that, if I were a qualified doctor in a state where it is legal, yes, I would perform the procedure, ONLY given that the mother’s health is in danger. By that time, a fetus is viable outside the womb, and while I support a woman’s right to choose I think she should have figured it out before then.

Sueanne_Tremendous's avatar

Ummm…To be clear, I know it’s “Borscht” (Uncle Miltie and Morie Amsterdam would never forgive me) but the borth made me laugh thinking of Borscht…ah well…

marinelife's avatar

Your hurt your case by not even being able to spell this loaded and misleading term. The term “partial birth abortion” is a political term. It is an inflammatory phrase. Here is what the AMA says:

” The AMA noted in a statement that it opposes the use of the D&X procedure. Critics of the law contend that it is vaguely worded. The procedure described in the law could occur in a wide variety of abortion procedures, said Dr. Paul Blumenthal of Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore.

Specifically, those circumstances could occur during a D&E procedure in the early- and mid-second trimester or if something went wrong during a labor induction, he said.

Dr. Hern, who performs late abortions, said he doesn’t know of any physicians who perform late abortions in the way described in the law, but he is still concerned that the statute could be used to prosecute anyone performing an abortion in the second or third trimester.

“The language is so vague that the doctor can’t know whether he or she is breaking the law,” Dr. Hern said.”

No one is happy about the procedure or performs the procedure except in extreme cases. The law, however, is badly written and unnecessary.

AstroChuck's avatar

And this law was written with an obvious agenda in mind.

asmonet's avatar

I don’t think this question applies to me as I can’t borth anything worth a damn.

gimmedat's avatar

Does one store borth in the frizzer?

Maverick's avatar

This question is so ridiculously worded and obviously loaded that it does not justify a response.

gimmedat's avatar

@Maverick, agreed, but I really cannot resist getting drawn in.

fireside's avatar

I can describe my position:

I’m sitting in a chair, slightly hunched forward, typing on a desk that is a little too high, so my arms are tilted upwards and my feet are out at a 45 degree angle from my upper thighs.

watchman220's avatar

@gimmedat
I knew that people would not be able to resist the question. I do like to see the responses ranging from idiotic to empathetic. Obviously I think that the term partial birth abortion is murder. I think any abortion is murder. But I still enjoy a good conversation.

marinelife's avatar

Edit: You. I hurt my case with my typo.

AlfredaPrufrock's avatar

Oh, I’m definitely anti-life. I’m in favor of road rage, too.

And while we’re at it, I don’t believe in health care for all children or adequate support for the elderly. Let them pay for it themselves, or die. Wait a minute… that makes me a… a… a… Repub…

SoapChef's avatar

Lawzy, Mizz Scarlett, we got to have a doctor. I don’t know nothin’ ‘bout borthin’ babies.

watchman220's avatar

OK so I just noticed that I was making fun of your spelling when I spelled the “birth” wrong….sorry. Go ahead….have fun.

yay.

gimmedat's avatar

@Watchman, unfortunately you have not sparked a good conversation or debate because of the spelling error you made in the asking. Honestly, though, there isn’t much of a conversation or debate to be had; people hold strong beliefs regarding reproductive rights and there really isn’t a whole lot of room for discussion. I can’t help but feel that your motivation was to express your opinion and try to call those who disagree with you “murderers”.

watchman220's avatar

yes murderers….indeed. You figured me out. dang it!

arnbev959's avatar

The question, ‘Would I perform it?’ and “Do I think it should be legal?’ are two separate issues.

Would I perform it?: No. Even if I were qualified, I don’t think I would. I’d tell the patient to find someone else to perform it.

Do I think it should be legal?: I honestly don’t know. I don’t know if I think any abortion should be legal. I do know that if my 15 year old sister became pregnant I would encourage her to terminate the pregnancy. So, in a way, I’m inclined to say that I’m one of those people who believe that there shouldn’t be any laws regarding the procedure, that it should be up to the woman and her family, religious leaders, and doctor to decide, and the government shouldn’t have anything to do with it.

But the great unanswered question that no one can really answer is “Does a fetus count as a human life?”

Since I can’t answer this, I can’t have a position. If a fetus is a human life, it is entitled to its civil rights and deserves protection from the government. After all, the government protects its citizins right to life, and so should it protect that right for a fetus, provided that a fetus is a human life.

But a blanket statement that says all partial birth abortion is illegal wouldn’t work for me either, because there are special circumstances, like cases where the life of the mother is threatened, which that should not be subject to the law that applies to most cases. There’s enough strife caused by those decisions as it is.

At the point where the baby could theoretically survive outside of the mother, I have to say that I think destroying that life is wrong. By that time I think the fetus should be considered a human life, and is entilted to the protection of law. But I really don’t know, and haven’t really been able to come up with a solid opinion of my own yet.

gimmedat's avatar

@watchman, spelling might not be your strong suit, but patronizing and condescending are two things you do well!!

watchman220's avatar

well thanks @gimmedat. I will take that as a compliment from the likes of you.
petethepothead….great answer….props for your honesty.
With one exception I agree with you. I would encourage my 15 year old sister to have the child and adopt if needed…if the child is at child-bearing age…they need to understand the responsibility of life…not the approval to terminate it.

It is the sacred responsibility of the woman to carry, birth and nurture a life from conception to adulthood.

That is my opinion…it sums up quite easily.

MacBean's avatar

Like every kind of abortion, I wouldn’t personally do it unless my health was in question, but I support everyone’s right to choose and I wouldn’t look down on anyone for making that choice and if I happened to be a medical professional in a place where it was legal I would perform it as asked.

gimmedat's avatar

And what would you know of “the likes of me”? What does that even mean?

arnbev959's avatar

@watchman: I understand the idea of “understanding the responsibility of life,” but the lesson is just too harsh for someone so young.

My cousin had a child when she was 18 years old. She wouldn’t get an abortion for religious reasons, and married the father of the child. Now she’s living in my grandparent’s house. She and her husband have minimum wage jobs, can barley support can’t support themselves, and really have no options. I’d want my sister to get rid of a child that she wouldn’t be able to support, and wait until later in life, after completing her education and establishing herself, to have children.

MacBean's avatar

@gimmedat—Looking over the answers to this thread, I suspect “the likes of you” includes people who respect the rights of others and see women as more than living, breathing incubators. In other words, people who disagree with watchman.

AlfredaPrufrock's avatar

@gimmedat Since I’m female, the mother of two daughters who survived their teenage years to adulthood, I have to wonder about a 40 something-year-old woman who is in Texas giving a keynote speech, and begins leaking amniotic fluid at seven months into her pregnancy, but gets on a plane to make an 8 hour plane ride because her husband doesn’t want a child of his born in Texas.

gimmedat's avatar

@MacBean, I guess you’re right. Will YOU be my friend?

MacBean's avatar

@gimmedat—Sure! The likes of us have to stick together.

Edit: There are NINE observing members right now. That might be the most I’ve ever seen at one time.

watchman220's avatar

likes or dislikes….whatever the case may be.

yes I defend the rights of living breathing incubators.

It is much more natural than unnatural lights and heat kind of incubators.
sheesh

MacBean's avatar

@watchman—Was that an attempt at humor or are you actually that ignorant?

SoapChef's avatar

Yes, watchman, Pete graciously and respectfully answered your question, as did dalepetrie in this thread on the same subject, http://www.fluther.com/disc/26271/is-obama-leadiing-america-to-destruction/ neither of which you deserved. I participated in the aforementioned thread and you called me a “SICK BASTARD” for posing a legitimite question that you called an ‘attack’. This is laughable considering the ridiculous, inflammatory questions you persist in posting. By the way, NO, I don’t accept your backhanded public apology you made on another thread that it seems the mods had sense enough to remove. You don’t deserve to be treated with any kind of dignity, respect or consideration. You are a numero uno, first class whack job. It is people like you that won the election last time and if you truly think that that Clintons sexcapades affected your life in any way and the last eight years have not, do the world a favor and join some fanatical religious cult that chooses not to participate in the demonic and worldly society of today and fly off to some colony reserved for the true nutjobs like yourself.

judochop's avatar

partial borth is wrong. If your gonna have an aborthon then you need to get all the borth out. Not just part of it.

arnbev959's avatar

Can’t we all just get along?

MacBean's avatar

@pete—That would be so boring.

judochop's avatar

whoa soap. That was awesome.

gimmedat's avatar

@watchman, I don’t even get the point of your last post. Supporting the rights of living breathing incubators would mean supporting the rights of a pregnant woman, which you clearly DO NOT. Please note, while you would refer to me as a murderer, I would not refer to you as a narrow-minded ignorant man who will never have to face the reality of an unintended, or perhaps, forced pregnancy.

asmonet's avatar

@MacBean: I’ve added you to my list of Fluther crushes.
EDIT: SoapChef….you too.

Anyway, while I am personally pro-life, I would never have an abortion, and only my own impending death might force me to reconsider it, in practice I’m pro-choice. I don’t think pro-life is feasible in any modern society. That being said, no obviously I don’t think I could perform an abortion, and late term abortions….they bother me. But it’s not my goodies and not my kid so do what you feel you need to. And just live and let fucking live, ya’ll.

gimmedat's avatar

@Pete, puff, puff, pass man. It’s all good, right?

SuperMouse's avatar

@Gimme and MacBean, count me in as the likes of you. Woman’s body = woman’s choice. Period.

@Watchman, near as I can tell you are a troll who only stops by momentarily, to see how much trouble you can stir up by using incendiary terms such as “murderous procedure,” “the likes of you,” and “sick bastard.” Trouble is, you tip your hand from the jump.

Here is an example of Flutherites discussing this very difficult subject with courtesy and thoughtfulness. If you are interested in a real conversation, I suggest you read that thread, otherwise you might feel more at home on another board.

gimmedat's avatar

SuperMouse, you rock!! I gotta go now, McCain in on SNL, it’s gonna be good!

seVen's avatar

Thou shall not murder.

Kay's avatar

Do you have a uterus?

No?

Then you don’t have a say over what I get to do with mine.

SoapChef's avatar

Edit: Sorry folks, I meant to include this link in explanation of my Clinton remark, above. http://www.fluther.com/disc/26551/anyone-else-having-pre-election-anxiety-got-any-cure-ideas/#quip284020

PupnTaco's avatar

They’re all a bunch of morderers!

SoapChef's avatar

and sick basturds!

galileogirl's avatar

I wouldn’t perform any medical procedure because I am not qualified. I also would not make any medical decision that would affect anybody but myself, because I am not qualified.

AND NEITHER ARE YOU!

AlfredaPrufrock's avatar

Just so you know, Watchman, There isn’t a medical procedure called a “partial birth abortion.” The correct terminology is “intact dilation and extraction.” the incident of IDX is estimated at .17%, or about 2,300 a year. In one year, I personally knew three women to have an IDX. One was because ultrasounds and tests revealed the baby did not have a brain stem, and would die at birth. The second, the baby had all of its internal organs outside its body and would die at birth, and the third, the baby died in utero at 8 months. The mother had lost four prior pregnancies to miscarriage.

So let me ask you, what do you think the correct thing to do in the aforementioned situations? Or do you think that a woman should have to go through the agony of an additional 1–2 months of pregnancy, and people asking her about names, decorating the nursery, etc. when she knows she’s going to deliver a dead baby?

breedmitch's avatar

Don’t you just love questions like this? The old timers can rack up hundreds of lurve in one day. Thanks for all the laughs, guys.

shadling21's avatar

Alfreda just made my answer very simple. No, because it’s NOT legal because it’s not a proper procedure. And besides, I can’t perform ANY medical procedure (“murderous” or not), as I am not a medical professional.

Lurve for the jokes.

Ryanmiller's avatar

There is absolutly no way i could do that

EmpressPixie's avatar

The majority of late term abortions happen because there is something beyond wrong with the fetus. By “beyond wrong”, I mean the child is already dead in the womb or will die—without question—at birth. It is most often something like no brain stem, open spine, somehow the baby did not form properly and the child will not survive birth. Asking the mother to continue to carry her dead child is, I think, cruel.

I do not think I am strong enough of the heart and stout enough in my soul to be able to face the women who must get this procedure. They are often devastated—these are most often the wanted children. The ones that their parents have been trying to have and are excited. And I do not think I would be able to deal with the sad, crying mothers. It’s like how people who like children shouldn’t become pediatricians, I would not make a good person to carry out this procedure, even if I were qualified.

However, I fully support any and every doctor who has the mental strength to do it. And I think it is shameful and embarrassing that we keep trying to limit these abortions because honestly, really truly and honestly no one is getting them for fun. People are getting them because the alternative is a dead baby in a few months anyway and usually with an increased chance of hurting the mother.

cdwccrn's avatar

I agree with empress and alfreda. These situations are tragic and these families don’t need others sitting in judgement. They need understanding in their hour of lost.

gailcalled's avatar

Watchman said:
“yes I defend the rights of living breathing incubators.
It is much more natural than unnatural lights and heat kind of incubators.
sheesh.”

What about the premature babies who are kept alive and nurtured in incubators until they are big enough and strong enough to go home? Sheesh to that procedure since the neo-nates cannot be stuffed back into the living and breathing incubators? (What a description of a woman and her reproductive system.)

galileogirl's avatar

OMG watchman, I just got that phrase. Did you equate women to machines…living incubators! You have every right to bring to fruition your sperm donation as long as it doesn’t require the services of another human being, unless you are using a volunteer. Your sperm, your business. But you cannot force your religious or philosophical beliefs on half the population who are sentient beings not receptacles or incubators.

When we come to a consensus on abortion or birth control in this country, I would expect everyone to abide by that consensus. If it is decided that we will not extend reproductive rights to women, then women will go where they are allowed, or do you think we should give women pregnancy tests before they are allowed to leave the country? However if women’s reproductive decisions continue to be their own business, I would expect men to find a way to become their own incubators or shut the f&*k up.

tonedef's avatar

Medically licensed or not, I would perform this procedure happily, enthusiastically, and frequently. The later, the better. I absolutely love abortions. They sustain me. When I’m having a difficult day, I just think about partial birth abortions, and it gets rid of the “blahs.”

What the fuck kind of question is this?

watchman220's avatar

Someone else equated women to machines…I took it as a case in point….tongue in cheeck…..drooling with sarcasm. The source of that quote was @gimmedat.

This thread has gone sour. Anyone who defends the obviously referenced procedure, has serious issues with the meaning of life. In fact…I would say they do not value life at all.

This would be my original point

Despite the spelling issue…it was a serious topic…one that is very important to me. Whether I am man or woman, it is very important to humanity. It is not just a woman’s right issue…it is far far more serious.

It is the part of the reason why this fading nation, that used to value the sanctity of life, will soon incur the judgement of God.

The fool says in his heart, there is no God.

God will not be mocked.

And every knee will bow.

But it won’t be because of my words, or my actions, or my beliefs. It will be by sheer force of reality that God is who He says He is.

That would be the real issue here…those who deny life…deny God. They have no conception of God, they are certainly not christian believers.

Those who have had experience with abortion of any kind…usually come to terms with what they have lost. Realizing their error.
There is forgiveness in Jesus. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. God will forgive you. You can forgive yourself.
But justifying in any way the destruction of innocent lives for the sake of convenience is godless and perilous.

SoapChef's avatar

The thread started off sour, beginning with the question.

EmpressPixie's avatar

Wait, because I don’t want to endanger someone’s life after their baby has already proven to have NO CHANCE of surviving, but they have EVERY chance of dying in childbirth I don’t value life?

I think someone in this equation doesn’t, but it is not me.

asmonet's avatar

@watchman: This thread was doomed from the get-go.

Keep your judgments to yourself, if you could have found a way to question the masses without jeopardizing your own character and calling into question your own validity and you might have found some here who would share your opinions.

Whoever raised you or taught you to be like this has wronged you terribly. You may not respect what we think, but you have a duty to yourself and your faith to turn the other cheek and be kind. You do not have the authority to judge us, your God does, according to you. And whether or not we choose to believe in him is of no concern to you. It’s between us, and the possibility of Him. I suggest you study your bible just a tiny bit more carefully, it seems you’ve missed a few chapters.

SoapChef's avatar

One thousand lurve to you, asmonet, well said! I especially liked the part about bible study. I often have wondered if these people actually READ their bibles. They seem to glean from them what they want and ignore the rest. The most vocal “christians” often behave in the most unchristian like manner.

asmonet's avatar

::bows::

Too often people forget that the best testimony you can give on your faith is your own life and actions. Obviously, watchman didn’t get the memo.

:-/

cyndyh's avatar

watchman, when you ask a question it’s polite to actually read the responses. If you had been reading you would have seen people question which procedure you’re actually trying to discuss which you had no answer for. You also would have seen AlfredaP and others asking you what should be done in cases where the fetus is already dead and few other heart-felt questions which you had no answer for.

But you ignored these types of questions and comments only to start your preaching rant. You even ignored your own question and the multiple times your error in the asking was pointed out which makes me wonder if you’re for real. It makes you appear to be a child covering their ears going, “La La La I’m not listening La La La”.

Whether you’re doing this because you think it’s cute or because you’re just too ignorant to have any sense of what a discussion actually entails really doesn’t matter in the end. You’re not adding any value when you do this.

shadling21's avatar

eyeroll @watchman

gimmedat's avatar

@watchman, When exactly did I compare a woman to a machine? Check your facts as well as your spelling the next time you post a question. I am hoping that you have gleaned from this thread that trying to further an agenda, trying to belittle people here on Fluther, and trying to get people to take you seriously is difficult to do when your posts are full of ugly comments.

AlfredaPrufrock's avatar

I am beginning to understand the difference between reading/memorizing/quoting the Bible, and understanding what you read…

breedmitch's avatar

stops following

gimmedat's avatar

^Good idea, I’m stopping, too.

MacBean's avatar

@watchman—I’m the one who introduced the “living breathing incubator” thing, not gimmedat. And it was because that is, in my view, essentially what you were (and still are) saying in coded terms.

judochop's avatar

@watchman:
No matter how much you want to deny it. You are the majority and you are a bit of a sadist. You know that you can’t change anyones mind here and you have to realize that you are not liked here. Not even a little bit. Why don’t you just gather your things and head over to the minute men website or some place like that where close minded, up tight, head up their ass folks like yourself can talk freely about how you are gonna save the world by pissing people off and acting just like it’s mid-evil times.

gailcalled's avatar

@Judo; good answer but do you mean “minority”?

judochop's avatar

Oops! Yes and thank you on the call.

watchman220's avatar

whatever….you are a strange bunch indeed. LIke wandering into a hostile man eating tribe. How sad.

Great answers if you believe what you believe. I think they are the worst answers ever and it makes me want to vomit….

****vomits all over the room****

Goodbye.

asmonet's avatar

Peace out, sucker.

SoapChef's avatar

Praise the Lord! and don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!

watchman220's avatar

*****dry heaves*****

gailcalled's avatar

^^“There is forgiveness in Jesus. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” Christian, heal thyself.

judochop's avatar

later watchman. See ya on the battlefield. You should really get that over the top drama thing worked out. People are likely to think your gay and I fear that you probably have a problem with that too. Have fun watching Jesus camp with your family during the election.

AstroChuck's avatar

Gail, I like your fighting style.

gailcalled's avatar

@AC; Watchman made that an unfair fight. It was his citation.

shadling21's avatar

This thread makes me feel dirty.

Maybe it’s all the vomit?

AstroChuck's avatar

Gail, I know. I just love it when someone uses their adversary’s words to throw back upon them.

PupnTaco's avatar

Or throw up on them (flicks puke off shoe)

watchman220's avatar

***Dumps a bucket of bleach all over the room to disinfect the vomit***

There….now it’s all better.

asmonet's avatar

At least, you cleaned up your own mess.

shadling21's avatar

Is this nonsense still going?

watchman220's avatar

*** Looks around, sees no one around, walks out the door.***

amurican's avatar

My purely emotional response is to protect all defensless childeren to be born. Seems like murder to me yet on the other hand hunting for sport seems much the same as it disregards the sacredness of all other living things. We are elevated above all other life forms through our phsycotic delusion of a diety that lifts our importance above all other life forms. We kill virises that cause a pandemic to save lives but in doing so remove the virises right to survive. We keep multiplying and taxing the finite resources that sustain all life. So eventually we are bound to reach a profetic end where we will be a few camps with the weapons while the rest of us canibalise our brothers and sisters until the last bit of sustanence is gone. A sobering thought to say the least. We are morally bound to save every life we can so that the entire ecosystem colapses from under us. So it would appear that the human race is the worst pandemic ever to have befallen the Earth. Food for thought?

watchman220's avatar

true that. THe nature of man is truly a curse and a disease which needs curing. God knows this. He does have a plan.

AstroChuck's avatar

That’s why I don’t pray. I don’t want to f*** up God’s plan.

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