Is it correct that the only things a very young child understands are reward and pain?

Aren’t pain avoidance and pleasure seeking the only things that motivate all of us?

No, because even if that is true, you know that loud noises (ie, shouting) upset children, creating its own kind of pain so even if they only understood reward and punishment, the shout still serves as punishment.

Also, I’m not actually giving you that your premise is true, just pointing out that your examples are not all encompassing.

Children are empiricists. If they want something from their environment, they will experiment with different behaviors to see whether they are effective in achieving the desired results. It is usually enough to consistently reinforce the lesson that “good” behavior gets “good” results, and that bad behavior doesn’t. Pain in the form of spanking is rarely called for. Unambiguous disapproval is often the most effective form of “pain”.

I agree with niki; pleasure and pain are the two basic motivations behind our behavior. However, pain is not solely a physical experience. A child can feel the “pain” of negative consequences. If I do this, then this bad thing will happen/If I don’t do this, then this good thing will happen are the primary ways to teach children the connection between behavior and consequence. Inflicting physical pain, such a spanking, is not necessary.

No

When a very young child (under age 3) sees his mother sick and goes and fetches his special blanket and brings it to her, you know he understands more than that.

Absolutely not. If you were to suggest that the best way to teach them to behave the way you want them to behave is through reward and punishment with clearly defined boundaries (as they can’t be reasoned with) then that would be far better, although pretty obvious :)

And punishment certainly doesn’t have to be spanking – although if your children are anything like mine I often feel like beating the crap out of them. (I don’t, of course, just in case anyone takes that seriously!).

So the majority dislike pain as a deterrent (spanking) and prefer to shout, use psychological warfare, and generally try to mess with their minds instead of a simple pop on the butt?

I think I prefer a pop on the butt, quick, clean, and doesn’t screw with their minds.

There are those who say that spanking does play with their heads – it just doesn’t show up until later.

They understand love. And neglect.
Well, let me fix that. No one understands love and neglect.
Young children experience love and the pain and abandonment of neglect.

Not necessarily. Children become empathetic toward others at an early age (following infancy). However if your question is geared toward learning the best way to dicipline young children, then I can’t be of much help.

@pekenoe and do you give them a pop on the butt without saying a word or wagging a finger?

@introv: A verbal explanation of the reason for the pop on the butt would seem to be called for, I don’t pop kids on the butt anymore. All grown, youngest grandchild is 16.

Just curious to see what the reaction would be and the reasoning behind not spanking.

I find it disgusting to go into a public place and see children running rampant, I’ll guarantee that we never did that as kids and none of my friends did either.

They don’t even understand the pain. But they do understand the lack of reward, which is a pretty powerful lesson. Things like “you won’t get that ice cream you were going to get” works just as well as a slap, and also saves you some money and you end up with a better relationship with your kid in the long run :)

@pekenoe I agree discipline has gone out of the window for a lot of parents but I think this has more to do with social factors and peoples general tendency to not accept responsibility for anything they do combined with laziness in effectively disciplining their children.

My children don’t behave like that and, although I must confess I have clipped them round the ear once or twice, I certainly wouldn’t consider that my primary means of disciplining them. Not at all in fact. In fact, if anything, I always feel really quite ashamed afterward that I couldn’t find a better way of getting my point across.

It makes me furious when I hear parents in public places threatening completely illogical consequences.

“You stop crying, you hear? You know what? I was going to get you that baby doll today, but now I won’t.”
Sure you were. And the kid cries louder now anyway.

“If you don’t put that back right now, we won’t go see Grandma next Tuesday.”
Next Tuesday comes, and not seeing Grandma (does the child even know it’s Tuesday?) is going to have something to do with picking a candy bar off the rack last Saturday? Or do they go see Grandma anyway, as opposed to explaining to Grandma that they can’t come because the kid grabbed something off a store display?

I think those parents could use a good swat on the butt. Right alongside the ones who stand there and watch the kids pull the seal off of one package after another or run among clothing racks and yank blouses off hangers.

I always think any punishment ought to be accompanied by an explanation. Even if the child is very young, the idea that there is a reason can get through. The offense is not that you made mommy mad. (And the parent’s anger is not the punishment. Anger only clouds it.) The offense has to be definable and explainable: “You behaved badly in the store.” “We don’t take things that don’t belong to us.” How else are they going to learn what they did wrong and how to avoid future punishments?

I’m also opposed to using treats (food) as a reward (The better I am, the more I deserve to eat.) and as a comfort in the event of mishaps. (“Aw, you hurt your knee! Here’s a cookie.” If I hurt myself, I can have a cookie. A cookie makes me feel better.) What kind of consequences does that association create, and are any of them healthy?

good point about the explaining bit. Also about food, though I must admit it has been very hard for me to not use chocolate as a coinage (though I tried to make a congratulations ritual out of it, and eventually took the chocolate completely out of the ritual whilst leaving the congratulations as the reward).

Another thing to note is that the rules have to be there to start with and not made up as we go along. People think that children are “too young” and let them get out of control, and by the time you realise that they’re misbehaving it’s too late to change anything. Basic rules such as “we don’t touch plugs” or “we don’t pull cables” were already in place before my daughter was old enough to reach them. Especially for electricity, which for me is the biggest household danger since it is an invisible one.

(yes I know someone is going to make a post about the safety plugs right about now, but no, it never worked for me as a kid and the point is that children should learn rules early on. I only used electricity as an extreme example)

@Jeruba I think everything you have to say is spot on and very much the way I think…I’m just wondering if you have children yourself? I used to say the exact same things before i had my son and i certainly uphold a lot of what i believe in…but you know sometimes it’s just not possible. The stresses and strains of being a mum, dad (let alone a single one, a working one…etc) are sometimes just too pressurized to hold up every single ethic all of the time.

When my son is naughty i talk to him first and foremost, find out whats really goign on(i.e. does he need more of my time, does he want to play with me, is he in pain etc) I then deal with the situation respectively. It almost always ends up in me giving him a cuddle and him getting on with things. But sometimes, in the middle of a supermarket, when you’re running behind, they’re tired and a lot fed up, you’re tired and fed up, aching because you haven’t slept a wink thinking about how you are going to sort the gas bill out… there’s not a lot you can do… (normally i would say spin him round in the trolley and create a bit of fun – but sometimes you’re just too tired and sometimes; so are they, for it to be any fun)

Likewise, I give him love and cuddles when he does something really good and also just when i feel like it. He also does get sweeties occasionally when he’s “been a good boy” but as a generally rule i don’t think my son will grow up to believe… if I’m good I’ll get chocolate etc. even though this is used as a reward at times.

@lynneblundell, yes, I have. They are over 21 now, but I remember plenty. I did not make my rules for myself very complicated, and so they were not too hard to follow even under stress.

I was never a perfect parent, and I did get angry and yell sometimes. I even acknowledged the existence of spanking offenses, though they were rare, and a real spanking was three smart swats on the bottom. A perfunctory smack that was really for show and never hurt but just conveyed a message was a little more common. Banishing to his room was effective for one but not the other, who amused himself and didn’t even bother to come out when time was up.

But I never made goofy threats or failed to tell them what they’d done wrong, and I never taught them that food is either for when you’ve been good or for when you’re sad. Food is for nourishment and for a treat, but I wasn’t training a seal with raw fish. I could make use of their human intelligence and ability to use speech as valuable tools in the process of teaching.

Praise and approval are easy to express: sincere words along with a warm smile and a hug (and I think you have to tell them what they’ve done right, too).

“You behaved very well in the restaurant. Thank you.”
“You were a good boy while we were at your brother’s school. I know it was hard to sit still, but you were quiet for a whole hour, and I was very proud of you.”
“You did well, honey. Thank you for being so patient.”

And there are appropriate rewards. “That wasn’t much fun for you, but you were great. Now let’s do something you enjoy.”

Disapproval is harder to be clear about, especially if you are angry. But I think you can always handle timeouts this way: “Your ten minutes are up. Before you come out, though, do you understand why you were sent to your room?” It might take another ten minutes to talk about it, but you do not want them to think it’s random. You want them to understand that they have control over their behavior and that they can affect what happens to them.

My children were very, very different from one another, so I had to learn what worked for each. And sometimes I was just defeated because nothing seemed to work. But we did get through the hard times, and I am pretty happy with who they’ve become. We also got through their teen years with very little fighting of any kind because even at the worst times we could always talk, having made a habit of it. The best part is that my grown children actually like their parents, and we enjoy each other’s company.

Finally, I absolutely believe that a parent must be able to apologize to a child—even a very young child—if the parent is wrong. More than once my husband or I had to say to the child, “I should not have punished you. I let my anger get the better of me.” or “I was too hard on you. I’m sorry.” I do not think it demeans the parent or weakens his authority. I think it shows respect for the child as a person and models the right behavior when you have made a mistake and hurt someone. If you do react too harshly, and you make honest amends, sometimes I think you have taught a better lesson than if you had never faltered.

@Jeruba I’m with you all the way x

Children understand getting what they want/need as opposed to not getting it. For the very young, spanking is unnecessary. With mine, I would hug them and laugh and give them food when they did something I liked and when they did not, I would put them in the playpen by their self. They hate that. It is only necessary to “imprison” them for a very short time, 5 minutes or so, at first, and then longer as they get older.

It has worked with both of my sons and all of the grandsons I have helped to raise. The youngest is 2 now, and if I just point at the playpen, he immediately minds.