What is your theory, or idea of what happened 9/11?

This has become a religious issue, relying upon faith rather than upon empirical knowledge.How you propose to extract meaning from a debate between ideologies is difficult for me to understand. I hope you will share your methodology. Then maybe we can settle the question of Creation.

I guess I belong in the Michael Moore camp? The Bush Administration were negligent in keeping up on the intelligence given to them by the Clinton Administration. Does this mean Bush and crew knew about the terrorist attack? Only kinda. I don’t think they let it happen as an excuse to go to Iraq; I think they let it happen because they weren’t paying attention.

I find if funny that Loose Change was going to be a fictitious movie at first, but he “discovered” the “truth” after production…

@drdoombot Michael Moore did piss me off with something he said. My roommate used to basically make me watch Alex Jones movies and on one he (MM) was asked why didn’t he include 911 truther stuff in his movie. He said, “Because it’s unamerican.” And that’s just lame.

The Bush administration was negligent but not involved.

Truthers who dispute the mainstream explanation because “they hear bombs” in the background and “skyscrapers can’t just fall on their own after being hit by exploding planes” are making the same logical fallacy that creationists and Holocaust deniers make. Conspiracy-theory logic is interested in poking holes in “mainstream” theories, not in actually explaining what happened. They don’t even have a coherent explanation, just guesses completely unsupported and often contradicted by evidence we have. It’s annoying.

I don’t think that the terrorists had any idea that they would bring down the towers. But I have not watched any movies or documentaries or anything.

If flight 93 had been driven into the ground the debree field would have been very small. The fact that it spanned over 8 miles indicate that it was probably shot down. I don’t blame them for shooting it down, and I kind of understand the cover-up in ther perspective of the moment. Here is more info

@Judi, I can actually believe that. It’s consistent with the available evidence and doesn’t require any further explanations, as do most of the alternate “theories” proposed by the truthers.

I wouldn’t say it’s ironclad; the plane could have crashed on its own (i.e through passenger action) but it certainly wouldn’t surprise me.

@Bri_L ; I remember watching a documentary BEFORE 9/11 about how the first world trade center attack went wrong. It went on to explain in detail with graphics of an airplane hitting the towers how that would have been a more effective method. I am SURE the saw it and knew exactly what they were doing. It’s funny how I haven’t seen anything about that pre 9/11 documentary since the tragedy.

@all I’m surprised that nobody addresses the whole Pentagon situation.

A plane did not hit the Pentagon. And nobody talks about it. It’s amazing.

@jfos

Actually, a plane did hit the Pentagon. American Airlines Flight 77.

As for 9/11, I believe that it was not an inside job, that Bush and his administration may or may not have known or guessed some kind of attack was going to happen but there wasn’t much they could do about it since they did not know when or how it was going to happen, and that it was an extremely tragic terrorist attack on the United States that changed this nation forever.

Plane go bang , buildings go crash people die . Loads of people make theories about what REALLY happened , Bush gets off scot-free

@DominicX

Actually, there is a hefty amount of facts that do not support American Airlines Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon.

No wing damage/marks on the Pentagon walls, not a lot of plane wreckage, seized and altered footage, markings on the ground days prior to the incident that lead directly to where the explosion happened, inconsistent structural damage done to the Pentagon, etc., etc., etc.

But nobody talks about the Pentagon.

the conspiracy theories on this subject are absolutely ridiculous.

And who is to say that Michael Moore isn’t behind it all.

This shit amazes me.

@jfos, the suspense is killing me—what do you think hit the Pentagon?

Was it an “inside job”?

Flying saucers?

I’m sure examine whatever alternate theory you propose just as thoroughly and meticulously as you examined the mainstream theory.

@Judi – wasn’t the first attack not really an attack on the towers themselves but a terrorist attack at the towers? Or was it truly meant to bring them down?

@jfos Show me the wing damage on the WTC, but I saw a plane hit it. A day after there was very little plane wreckage, but I saw a plane hit it, The WTC was supposed to be able to survive a plane crash, BUT I SAW A PLANE HIT IT.!!. The conspiracy theorists are premature. They can’t even get off the ground until millions of eyewitnesses are dead-say 60–70 years. Then they can try and spread their crap.and lies.

It isn’t my theory, but here’s what I think happened based on what all I’ve read and absorbed.

1. A faction of the U.S. Government aligned with a “hidden hand” of other interests (such as global elite types or other country’s intelligence services) conspired to create a “new Pearl Harbor” a) to provide cause for war (for profit) b) to advance a grab for oil and pipeline resources, and c) to advance an agenda to subjugate the citizenry both to quell dissent and promote economic serfdom.

2. Preparations for 9/11 included rigging the WTC complex with demolitions. A portion of this was accomplished under the cover of upgrading the elevators in both towers, which commenced shortly after Bush took office. The section of the Pentagon that was hit was also likely rigged under the cover of defense upgrades to the building.

3. The WTC planes were flown by remote control at least from the time they started to approach the towers. The Pentagon plane took a slightly different flight path than officially reported, buzzed the Pentagon and landed at Reagan airport 1 mile further along the actual flight path. Flight 93 was shot down by responders who were not privy to the conspiracy and who were not confused by the military airspace exercises that also were happening that day.

4. Bush may not have been privy to the plan; however, his handling indicates that his party was aware that something was afoot, especially since Secret Service took the unusual
step of mounting AA guns on the roof of his hotel. I also believe that the book choice, The Pet Goat (frequently misreported as My Pet Goat) was no less a player in the unfolding of events, since the goat head is a well established occult/satanic symbol. Calling that last gem a fact presupposes a belief in a satanic/luciferian/babylonian influence among the aforementioned faction, which I believe is the case. One might cite the upside-down stars in the Republican logo (coinciding loosely with the Dubya campaign and presidency) as another example. Further, you’ll find the Eye of Horus is integrated in the first 9/11 memorial ceremony.

5. The same playbook was used to create the 7/7 attacks in London, England. Much like air defense on 9/11, first responders in London were engaged in terrorist drills when the attacks occurred. The purpose of the drills obviously is to allow the plots to happen unimpeded.

6. This is my informed opinion, and having done it enough I could give a fuck about arguing it with anyone participating in this thread. From my point of view, it’s a sad, sad state of affairs that so many are deceived by and willing defenders of those who profit by relying on deception, preying upon fears and dividing humanity against itself.

@kevbo

It’s funny because the “other side” says the exact same thing about your side. I think it’s sad that so many are deluded into believing conspiracy theories and I think it’s an insult to everyone that died that day and all their families.

I also think that we made contact with alien lifeforms and spacecraft in 1947 at Roswell, New Mexico. Yet no one talks about that anymore…

@kevbo What happened to the black ops helicopters, the grandsons of escaped Nazis who set up 9/11 to start another world war and the space aliens who set this all up when they visited the Nevada desert in the 50’s. Anyway, that’s what I read.

@BriL, according to the documentary, they were going after the foundation (if I remember correctly) and they didn’t realize that the strength was in thr frame not the foundation.

@DominicX, I guess the New Jersey Wives have the unique distinction of insulting themselves, and things like the International UFO Museum and Research Center in Roswell and organizations such as MUFON don’t exist because eveyone has stopped talking about it (and most especially on change.gov). Thank you for setting the record straight.

@galileogirl, I suppose you’re right, since all we got was a global war on terror perpetrated by a coalition of the willing against an axis of evil. Such a disappointment.

@kevbo

I think you misunderstood what I said. I said I do think there is validity to what happened in Roswell. I was expressing disappointment that I don’t hear much about it anymore. Unsolved Mysteries rekindled my interest in that. I don’t, however, believe in any sort of conspiracy related to 9/11. And I agree with the first poster that this is largely a religious argument. People from both sides find evidence that supports their side and disproves the other. It’s the same kind of thing.

I know that;
1. Planes hit the towers.
2. The towers fell down shortly afterward.

This does not imply that the towers fell as a result of the impacts, but that is easier for me to believe than the massive conspiracy it would take to rig the towers with explosives and not have anyone know about it.
So for now I (with not much of an understanding of physics) assume that the planes caused the towers to collapse.

As for who organized the people to fly into the towers, I see no more reason to believe that Bin Laden did it than Bush. The only proof we have that he did it was a recording of an arabic looking man with a beard saying the equivalent of “Fuck you america, I did it”. That would be rather easy to fake.
It could have been anyone really.

So I don’t totally reject the official government story of what happened that day, but I also am not convinced enough to say that is what I think happened.

With video tape evidence, live broadcast, and all the witnesses, I am still shocked to hear people say they think it was a demolition. These people need to reevaluate their beliefs.
Bush’s administration blew it. They had all the evidence that this would happen, and they fucked up. Period.

My opinion? Bush demolished the Twin Towers so he could bomb Afghanistan. At least that’s the only rational, substantiated explanation.

There’s a series of ridiculous conspiracy theories generated over the years, such as one that says that the towers were hit by planes driven by German students, or that the fire from the fuel in the planes managed to make two 100-storey buildings collapse within minutes. There’s even a stupid assumption that some Saudi Arabian friend of the Clintons had something to do with all this. But of course you shouldn’t believe everything you see on TV, especially if it comes from a government source.

I never understand if people who support the conspiracy theories realize that they’re saying Bush is intelligent enough to carry out a scheme so perfect that no one even knew the towers were rigged with explosives and through his master cunning, was able to fool the whole nation. Bush was a genius.

@DominicX Bush was a whole lot smarter than he wanted you to believe.

Wow. Fooled me!

I think it was all organized by intelligent, vindictive bunny rabbits, a la Watership Down. They’ll teach us for stuffing them full of alfalfa pellets!

@eponymoushipster Kudos for the Watership Down reference!! Great movie, even better book!

As for the actual point of this post? What a bunch of hooey.

What happened with Flight 93???
Was it shot down? Wasnt it?
According to Transportation Secretary at the time, Norman Mineta, a young man came into the command bunker that Dick Cheney, was in that morning (remember, cheney was in charge that day, not Bush) and this was his testimony:
Mineta: “During the time that the airplane was coming into the Pentagon, there was a young man who would come in and say to the Vice President…the plane is 50 miles out…the plane is 30 miles out….and when it got down to the plane is 10 miles out, the young man also said to the vice president “do the orders still stand?” And the Vice President turned and whipped his neck around and said “Of course the orders still stand, have you heard anything to the contrary!??

What really happened to that plane? You may say it doesnt matter, but if we are being lied to about one part of 9/11, it gives me reason to question the whole thing.

Oh yeah, by the way, here is the video of that testimony by Norman Mineta:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDfdOwt2v3Y

@sampson, interesting factoid-Michael Moore’s agent is Rahm Emmanuel’s brother.

We all know it was a secret organization know as The Pentavaret. Who are they, you ask?

The Gettys
The Roths
The Queen
The Vatican
and Colonel Sanders before he went tits up.

They meet at a secret compound in Colorado known as…The Meadows.

Oo, how i hated the Colonel….

@kevbo, do you have a shred of evidence for any of your six points? I could just as easily write six points saying aliens were behind it.

I could also just as easily say that this is my informed opinion and I could give a fuck about defending it.

What really bothers me is your hypocrisy. You are so willing to poke holes in the “mainstream” theory—even the tiniest perceived hole, like someone on Youtube claiming a skyscraper couldn’t be brought down by an exploding plane, is enough to entirely discredit the entire mainstream explanation. But far be it for you to apply the same standards to your list of 6 completely baseless assertions.

It’s a pathetic double standard, emblematic of the fallacy of conspiracy-theories and religious nuts.

“I can’t possibly imagine how this specific example of a flagellum motor evolved on a bacteria, therefore, a Mesopotamian deity created all forms of life from scratch.”

“I can’t possibly imagine every physical step of how a building would fall down from a plane flying into it and exploding, therefore, a massive conspiracy must have been behind it.”

I mean, you’re already there, with your My Pet Goat = Occult nonsense. Grow up.

@chris6137, if they’re lying about shooting the plane down, how on earth does that make you question “the whole thing?”

If Bush and Cheney were behind it, why on earth would they need to shoot the plane down in the first place?

I agree that Bush and Cheney have zero credibility. But just because they are liars doesn’t mean any claim anyone makes about them is automatically true or worth considering.

@kevbo, “Fuck you” is something Rahm Emmanuel says a lot. Rahm Emmanuel, the brother of Michael Moore’s producer… ARE YOU MICHAEL MOORE? You can’t prove you’re not.

Simple: A group of young men corrupted by Islamic dogma and brainwashed into believing there was anything at all after death (let alone the disgusting bigamist reward they were offered) decided to exact vengeance on a country that repeatedly insists on interfering in the affairs of others. They hijacked planes and flew them into buildings, which then buckled due to the intense heat, and imploded.
Honestly, conspiracy theories on this issue are laughable and to be taken as seriously as those who pretend there never was a holocaust and Hitler would be a good dinner guest along with Attila the Hun.

How about spending time to find and implement long-term strategies making Al-Qaeda unattractive to potential recruits?

[Mod Says] Flame off please.

@Qingu, since the obviousness of your flagellum/God-of-the-Gaps argument, equating of truthers/holocaust deniers/creationists, right to demand unimpeachable evidence, and assertions that I can’t prove my identity have failed on two or three occasions to help me see the light, perhaps you can be contented to take pity on this childish, hypocritical, lost cause and move on.

If you are concerned about me corrupting minds with false information, perhaps you can just stick to presenting a better
case.

After engaging these very same arguments on other threads, I have to say that they aren’t useful to my understanding of this event, nor do I think that they to
any degree detract from it.

A decent article about the liklihood of conspiracies.

Also, I should revise my Pentagon-related statement. IMO, that section was emptied of working offices prior to 9/11 under cover of defense upgrades and was probably hit by a drone. My apologies for muddling that.

removed

@Qingu

It makes me question the whole thing because why would the 9/11 Commission omit anything Norman Mineta said, but still continue to go with the original story. Im not necessarily saying they were lying, but if you are having an investigation, and one of the first people around the person running the show says something like he did, you investigate what really happened to that plane, not go and release a friggin hollywood movie to show us what happened. To me, the 9/11 Commission didnt investigate anything, all they did was try to prove the story we were told….9/12/01, the very next day. Here is a list of questions from family member of victims of 9/11 that the Commission refused to answer.

Why Bush or Cheney, but more likely Cheney because he was in charge that morning, would shoot down the plane is irrelevant at this point. I want to know if they did or didnt dhoot it down first. If they did, then we ask why and then we ask why an investigation failed to investigate this.

Some really angry guys hijacked some planes and flew them into some heavily occupied buildings.

@chris6137, here is the problem with every single thing you are saying.

Nothing in any of those unanswered questions points to an inside job.

Nothing.

Let’s assume there are holes in the official explanation. Fine. You can’t just make up shit about a completely unevidenced conspiracy to fill those holes.

For example, Kevbo believes that there is a hole in the official story of the Pentagon getting hit… therefore, it must have been hit by a drone. But he just made this up. There is no evidence that it was a drone. And more importantly, this completely fails to explain what happened to the actual plane. Did it just vanish into thin air? What the fuck! You might as well say “aliens attacked the Pentagon” or “Jews used an X-ray laser from space.”

You can be skeptical. You can even “demand” answers. But don’t mistake a lack of answers with evidence of a conspiracy. And don’t you dare pretend that you’re interested in getting those answers if you’re just using the “asking questions” as a pretext to support a preconceived, unevidenced conspiracy theory. This is exactly what creationists do when they claim they’re just “asking questions” and “teaching the controversy” about evolution.

It is infuriating, and this kind of irrationality is exactly why our nation is collectively stupid enough to vote people like Bush into office.

Haha! And don’t assume that people’s votes are what got Bush elected. Or that Bush was enough in charge of his own presidency that he was the primary cause of all our problems.

Why are you infuriated about something you now know to be central to the human condition (irrational thought) and what are you doing to fix it other than telling everyone they are stupid?

Our entire society and economy runs on irrational thought, so why do conspiracy theorists and creationists deserve so much attention?