How do you feel about criminals not having to pay for their living arrangements?

They are paying. By having their freedom and rights taken away.

@ragingloli hit it on the head. Although for some, the standard of living in jail can be better for some individuals who come from very terrible backgrounds (which is probably the reason they’re in jail in the first place). It’s expensive to feed and house criminals in jail, yes, but just because someone committed a crime (not all incarcerated people are murderers, you know!) doesn’t mean we should throw them to the dogs. That would something called “cruel and unusual punishment,” and it happens to be against our Constitution.

They certainly have to pay here where I live. They get charged “x” amount of dollars a day. I don’t know the stats on how many pay, after they get out, I believe some do. I know that if they go back in and haven’t paid and someone puts money on their “books” the jail takes half of whatever is put in.

I’d be lying if I said that I was completely happy about paying for the housing of inmates in prison but someone has to foot the bill and the American taxpayer seems to be a legitimate source of funding to make that happen. If some of my money goes toward knowing some very nefarious people are locked up securely where they can’t harm others and commit more crimes, I can sleep comfortably at night knowing that. Admittedly, the prison system isn’t perfect but it is all we have for now and I’d like to think it is a working solution for the time being. Yes, I concede that it probably needs to be improved.

What are they supposed to pay with? I’m pretty sure that those who work receive less than minimum wage for their work, so they’re paying right there, and in many cases their pay is actually docked to pay for their housing and food. In some cases they work for free, so that’s paying for their housing.

I find it amazing that people always go on about how freedom and rights are the most valuable things on earth and how they would die to defend it, but as soon as someone has these things taken away from him, it suddenly is not even worth enough to compensate for being housed in a cold cell without any luxuries and with substandard food. Pure hypocrisy. Society should take a look at its own depravity.

How are they suppose to pay the $40+ thousand a year it cost to house them?

Plenty on the outside cant make that much.

But, they should be working their ass off every day in some form or another.

So what are you supposed to do with an inmate that refuses to pay for his lodging? Throw him in jail? He’s already there.
What exactly are you asking?

In my opinion, it’s their fault (usually) that they are in there, so why do they get a completely free ride? Some people will even go and do bad things just to get arrested, so that they can have a place to spend the night for free. Now, I know they aren’t supposed to be able to pay $40,000 a year, but isn’t it slightly unreasonable that they don’t even pay a dime? And no, i’m just saying that it’s a surprise there aren’t any laws that a criminal must partially pay for their lodgings.

How do they pay for it. If they don’t have a job.
They are in jail!

It comes down to the price we tax payers pay to keep them out of our neighborhood.

@ChazMaz they have bank accounts, don’t they (hopefully)? If not that, then there is always the family of the offender. Not that making the family pay is particularly fair, but better them than people thousands of miles away who don’t even know the person.

The ones who are committing crimes just to get a place to sleep (and some medical and dental care) are homeless. They don’t have bank accounts, or any money for that matter.

But hey, if we had universal single payer health care that included dental we would prevent a lot of that. Even more if we had decent programs for housing the homeless.

I’m sort of an idiot because I just realized that I read the question wrong and then answered it wrong also. There really isn’t any foolproof way to make an imate pay for his own incarceration. They don’t make enough money through prison labor to cover their costs of being locked up and I think the government would be very hard pressed to make relatives or family members of the convicts pay for their time spent in the prison system. As far as a present solution to this current dilemma, see my previous answer above.

”@ChazMaz they have bank accounts, don’t they (hopefully)? ”

From what? They are in jail? lol

And, what ever money they did have. The lawyer took.

Most people that go to jail are not living like OJ Simpson.

“then there is always the family of the offender.”
Woah! Me thinks I see a monkey fly out my butt.

@nikayamo I don’t understand your definition of “completely free ride”. I and several others have expressed to you that they do indeed have to pay, and how would you expect them to hold down a job?
As for it being “their fault” for being there, that’s a different can of worms. I would submit to you that there is a dynamic underlying criminal behaviour that begins in childhood, that is then exacerbated through variables such as low income, single parent households that contribute significantly to numerous issues in a person. These issues then become part of a chain of behavoiurs that contribute to eventual incarceration. I do not suggest that ALL people who go to jail are a result of this dynamic, but certainly a good percentage. The system itself is flawed, and first time offenders are shoved alongside repeat criminals. As another Flutherite noted in a different thread, the jails are somewhat criminal training grounds. The underlying issues that cause criminal behaviour are not addressed, and upon release, the strictures laid upon them are difficult to comply with and the penalties severe. In addition, once a person is considered a “Felon” they have almost no chance of ever living that down and becoming a contributing citizen, and part of society. You cannot serve in the military, own a gun, or even vote. Talk about marginalization. What incentive do these people have to rehabilitate?
The system is flawed, and needs to be fixed.
What needs to happen is for everyone to step back and see the whole picture, and probably the whole system should be torn completely apart, the rubble cleared, and started afresh.

@ChazMaz “It comes down to the price we tax payers pay to keep them out of our neighborhood.” Exactly. While I may not agree with the exact way the money is being spent, part of living in society includes paying to keep the streets safer. And I’m cool with that.

@nikayamo So how should it work then, with families paying? First look for the parent, then the siblings, then the cousins/aunts/uncles… how would you feel about paying for the incarcerated cousin you met that one time in 1992?

To a homeless person, prison sounds like the Comfort Inn. free warm shelter, free food, free education, free attorney and some even get to vote. us taxpayers have to food the bill, but with is the alternative?

Just to clear this up, I am NOT siding with making them pay. I am arguing that point to see what people think from the other point of view. Personally, I feel that they are already paying, as do many of you, so don’t take it as I think they need to make family pay, etc…

@nikayamo Just going off of what you wrote: “then there is always the family of the offender. Not that making the family pay is particularly fair, but better them than people thousands of miles away who don’t even know the person.” What did you mean?

This question makes me think of a situation a friend of mine had. Her no good loser husband never gave her any child support. He was a cheating, drug taking, alcoholic at the time of their divorce. Some family members convinced her to put out a warrant for his arrest for not following the court order. She went to him and told him, “pay me something or they are going to pick you up, I don’t want to do this.” He replied, “at least I will get 3 squares a day.” Ugh.

@Likeradar I wonder if we spent that money differently if we could not have so much crime on our streets? Hard to fix I know, and some people are unfortunately going to be criminals, violent criminals, no matter what I guess; but I would rather pay for government housing and better schools, with the requirement that you must be drug free, no convictions, and hold down a job to live there, than pay for jails instead. But it probably wouldn’t work. :(

@Likeradar I meant that taxpayers who don’t know the offenders pay for it. The family pay for it as well, but shouldn’t they chip in a little extra here and there?

Plenty of people have left prison and started multi million dollar corps. Everybody deserves a second chance, but they woudnt get it if we just threw them in a box like a animal and let them die. There are criminals that can’t be rehabed, but there are still some that can. If your a person that goes to church every sunday and believe in the word of god then you wouldnt mind it at all.

@nikayamo “chip in a little extra here and there”. And you presumably have a metric as a go by that would determine who pays how much and how often? What would the penalty be for not paying? Internment?

@nikayamo I think in theory that sounds lovely. But in reality- how would you feel about paying partial costs on top of your taxes to keep some relative of yours incarcerated? Is it just based on the fact that you know the person? Then why not their roommate, or their girlfriend, or the mailman they chat with every day…

@JLeslie I completely agree that there needs to be more programs in place to help people instead of throwing them in prison- rehabs, life skills courses, job skills training, etc.

“shouldn’t they chip in a little extra here and there?”

They usually do. It is called paying a lawyer to chase after an appeal.
And in some cases, that “criminal” family member usually gets money sent right to them for treats or better shoes.
Or payoff money. So they are less at risk of getting boned in the shower. That is until they learn the ropes of prison life.

@Trillian The penalty for not paying would be….jail. No, i’m kidding. I don’t consider the family payment idea a good constructive response to the issue, but it’s an idea nonetheless. @Likeradar I already know how that feels. I’ve been forced to help bail (bale?) my cousin out with my money several times. It isn’t exactly wonderful, but I think it is still fairer that I am paying than somebody else.

@ChazMaz You know, I’ve often wondered why prisons allow some of that stuff to go on. I know some is hard to stop, but not all of it. They don’t have to make prisons lawless places where the least violent, least harmful offenders will be victimized by the worst.

I was even thinking before that, the high schools, and yes life skills and vocational programs in high school and after graduation. I know we are agreeing, but your answer seems to be focusing once a crime has happened and I thought maybe I was unclear on the intent of my original statement.

Having worked for the prison systems, I can tell you that they get waaaay more freedoms than you are aware. Whenever I go into specifics, people get enraged. I just don’t have the energy for that rant today. :)

@nikayamo Internment means imprisonment, ie; jail.

@Snarp I have interviewed a couple Felons. There are times when the guards open all the doors in a particular wing and go away. There is a person who has been singled out for a beating, and if a person does not participate in the beating of the target, he in turn is beaten. So everybody in that wing beats the crap out of that person. You have to, whether you want to or not.

@Trillian yes, I was agreeing with you….lol.

@JLeslie Yeah, you’re right. We’re almost agreeing. :) So do you mean programs for all kids in high schools to help them get going on a good path? And then help with housing after they move out of their parents’ house? How would it be decided who gets the extra help? If I’m still not getting it, just tell me. :)

@nikayamo So I don’t know your family dynamics, but I can’t imagine that bailing your cousin out wasn’t a choice. Unless I’m way more ignorant of the judicial system than I think I am, no one has to be bailed out. They can sit there. So I don’t think your argument that bailing out a relative by choice is at all the same as tracking down relatives to pay for incarceration holds much weight. Unless I’m missing something?

@Snarp – I agree. But that would cost money.

The prison system is about squeezing all you can out of the less fortunate. And the rest of “us” that do not really care. It is one big money making ponzi scheme

@ChazMaz Especially now that private prisons are taking over.

I know tax payers pay the lions share but the inmate works for about a dime an hour. I don’t think the tax payers should be asked to pay for the non violent offenders like all those who are incarcerated for small amounts of marijuana. I think those should be turned loose. Puff, puff, pass.

“like all those who are incarcerated for small amounts of marijuana.”
Who goes to jail for a joint?

@Likeradar I am just relating it to the issue. Wether it had been bailing or just paying for incarceration, and when I said ‘family’, that may have been extremely broad. I was thinking more along the lines of the parents/ anybody that actually wants to pay (if thats even an option?). And if the parents are deceased or homeless or missing or handicapped…etc.. then oh well, good try, and let the taxpayers take care of them then.

“I was thinking more along the lines of the parents/ anybody that actually wants to pay”

That “actually” wants to pay? lol

@ChazMaz It used to be a fine where I live, but they decided to crack down and add jail time for some reason, even though they claim the jail is overcrowded and they need money to build a new one.

“and add jail time”

Like a day or two. Or a week? I cant see this unless you are a repeat offender then what are you looking at 30 days?

Now I am Talking about a Joint. Get caught with an ounce and that is intent to sell.

@ChazMaz Minor possession (in this case anything less than 100 grams) used to get you a fine of no more than $100. Now it gets you up to one month in jail.

@Likeradar I have no idea LOL. It is kind of one of those “liberal” ideas that probably won’t work. I was thinking families living in safe neighborhoods, so the children go to good schools, and see a future and don’t have the stress of living in a war zone so they can focus and have a plausable path to being successful adults. I kind of think of it as helping the next generation more than anything. You have to understand, my local news channel has been advertising that their news anchor will be testing out a bullet proof back pack live on the evening news.

Your idea is interesting too. That once a crime is committed don’t immediately just throw them into jail, maybe there is a better option. I do tend to agree that you become your environment, so if you get used to living in jail, especially at a young age, it becomes home, and it might be difficult to adjust to living on the outside.

@Snarp – Yikes. Time to get back on the legalizing bandstand. lol

But that is another post. :-)

I have here a link and a bit of the abstract of one of the most compelling articles I’ve ever read. If any of you have access to EBSCO Host, you can find it there, others who are interested enough will have to pay for it. I could copy and paste but that would be illegal. So, that being said, if anyone is interested enough, I’d love to hear your feedback. This issue is thoroughly addressed with some… unconventional suggestions, though it looks at it from a different angle, and the prison/penal system is not a detailed as one could wish.
Here is a bit of the abstract:
“It is argued here that the main reason for this epidemic of crime and violence is the rapid recent increase in the proportion of the young people aged 15 to 24 who have grown up unsocialized. It is argued further that most of these feral youngsters are sociopaths, defined as genetically normal children whose failure of socialization was due to their being domiciled with an immature, overburdened, unsocialized, or otherwise incompetent parent or parents.”

I can clarify that his definition of “incompetent parents” is not as harsh as it sounds, and is meant to categorize, not offend. Bib follows.

Works Cited
Lykken, D. T. (2000). The causes and costs of crime and a controversial cure. Journal of Personality , 559–605.

“whose failure of socialization was due to their being domiciled with an immature, overburdened, unsocialized, or otherwise incompetent parent or parents.””

That is so true.

@Trillian Having some trouble with your Works Cited. I can’t find the article searching EBSCO, and the only journal match I get is Journal of Personality Assessment, in which I can’t find the article and which doesn’t have those page numbers in that year.

@Snarp leaving the house. I’ll find you a link when I get back. I found it through my University online library link, Academic Search Primer, e articles

@Trillian I finally found it.

@Trillian How can you tear down everythng and start from scratch? Are you talking about what I am talking about, starting with the families and living conditions in the first place, before crimes are even committed? Or, tearing down the jails and how we “rehabilitate?” You touched on what I talk about on so many threads single young women having babies they can not really care for. I am not saying all single mothers are bad, or that all criminals come from single parent families, but odds go up. What exactly do you propose? Discouraging the pregnancies and births to begin with, persuading the men to stick around?

@JLeslie I’m definitley in favor of safe neighborhoods and good schools, and routinely vote for people/bills/taxes I think will help get us to that ideal. But… ugh. There just don’t seem to ever be enough resources and positive role models and incentives to go around. And as liberal as I am, there does come a time for personal responsibility. And I hate saying that because the children of the people who don’t take personal responsibility are the ones who suffer… Oy. It’s a big issue and way off topic. :)

@Likeradar Oy is right. We do agree. :)

@JLeslie yay! :)

@JLeslie it would be a huge undertaking. Because there are so many interrelated factors. But essentially, to fix A, one would need to fix B, C, D, E, F, and so on.. You hit on a couple things from the article that I recommended. I wish you could read it. It is indeed, controversial, and what the topic is answers to something you brought up, but it doesn’t cover what is wrong NOW, it’s like a future kind of thing. Anyway, it will never happen. So we’re stuck with a system that perpetuates everything that is negative in our society, and at some point….ggaahaaaahhh! I don’t want to go there. I feel like a Cassandra. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe I’m too pessimistic.

“But essentially, to fix A, one would need to fix B, C, D, E, F, and so on

Actually it is the reverse. To fix F…

And let’s not forget that to fix B and D and F already need to be improved, but D can’t change effectively until E is worked on…

And down we go….LOL.

@Trillian Did you post the link to the article? I might have missed it. I’ll read it.

@JLeslie here you go. I see that @Snarp found it. i don’t know if he had to pay for it or not…
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119036329/abstract

I can still access my university library resources, so I did not have to pay for it.

That’s why I like chain gangs.

Ok thanks. I’ll check it out in a little bit, I have to leave my computer. This crime problem is in my face every day where I live. I hate it.

“That’s why I like chain gangs.”

That’s right. There are over a million individuals incarcerated.

All that “free” labor.

@ChazMaz -Exactly!Imagine all the potholders that could be manufacted by these individuals….macaroni art too!!

Refreshing to see proponents of slavery in the 21st century.

Potholders? Macaroni art?

I should be able to eat off of any street in the country.

But a good idea for all those “pot heads” ;-)

That are stuck in jail for 30 days. :-)

@ChazMaz -Or my mother-in-law’s <smirkety smirk smirk smirk;)>

“Refreshing to see proponents of slavery in the 21st century.”

Ok, so either we are the slave to the inmate or the inmate is a slave to us.

I vote for the second. Don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time.

@chaz maz-
Good thinking!;)

With 10% unemployment, I would rather pay someone who is not in prison to do the jobs. And not all of them are cleaning up public rights of way, some end up hired out to do jobs that a private company would otherwise be paying someone else to do.

“Ok, so either we are the slave to the inmate or the inmate is a slave to us.”
There is no such situation.
The inmates have not taken away your freedom, they can not force you to work, they can not decide what you do with your time, where you can go, who you can talk to. In no situation are you their slaves. On the other hand, inmates have their freedom taken away, you (society) decides what they can do with their time, where they can go and who to associate with. If you add your desire to force them to work for you, they, for all intents and purposes, become slaves.
There is no such situation á la “Ok, so either we are the slave to the inmate or the inmate is a slave to us.”
It exists only in your mind.

“There is no such situation.”
Lets do the math. lets just say $40,000 per year x 1 million.
I can think of plenty and would rather do with.

Make them work for that 40k a year.

“inmates have their freedom taken away.”
No, they took it away themselves.

“It exists only in your mind.”
There is no great genius without some touch of madness.

The inmates do take away your freedoms when you are at the mercy of their whims and should pay for their crime.

@Trillian I could only read the abstract, otherwise I think I have to pay. Is the full text very long to copy past?

”No, they took it away themselves.”
That is pure rethorics and a load of bollocks.
We took away their freedoms because they did something we do not like. Your twisting of words does not change reality.

”Lets do the math. lest just say $40,000 per year x 1 million.”
First of all, you personally do not pay 40 billion per year and secondly, having to pay for their housing with a small part of the taxes you pay is not slavery, no matter how much you want it to be.

”The inmates do take away your freedoms when you are at the mercy of their whims and should pay for their crime.”
You are not “at the mercy of their whims”, just because they try to claim the little bit of rights they have left. On the contrary, they are at the mercy of your whims, because you could take away these little rights they have left with ease, deny them any justice and just treatment, deprive them of their last bit of humanity and dignity, treat them as subhumans and animals and truth be told, from what you released in this thread, that is what you want.

”and should pay for their crime.”
You are not paying for their crime. They pay for their crimes. They pay by not being free, by being treated like animals by people like you, by not being able and free to choose what they eat, what clothes they wear, what activities to do, what places to go, etc.
In western society, where freedom and liberty are being regarded as the greatest of goods, surpassing even the value of life itself, this should be the greatest price one can pay. But suddenly, when it comes to prisoners, people like you suddenly think that freedom and liberty that you took from them, these values so highly regarded otherwise, are now completely worthless, not even worth enough to compensate for the costs that come naturally with any deal.
This is pure hypocrisy, and one can only have contempt for such an attitude.

“We took away their freedoms because they did something WE do not like.”
That’s the way it goes and that is bollock.

“Your twisting of words does not change reality.”
That is also bollock.

“First of all, you personally do not pay 40 billion per year”
I personally do not carry the cost of any entirety of a nation. United we stand. But, it does add up.

“You are not “at the mercy of their whims”
No you are right, the guards are paid to make sure they do not get out are there for fun.
And, tell that to the lawyer. Every time an appeal is possible. I did not add all the bogged down court time and lawyer expense that comes with that.

“deny them any justice and just treatment, deprive them of their last bit of humanity and dignity”
They did it to themselves, they operate like that all on their own.
Want to make prison a “comfortable” place to be. Everyone would be there. At least the current 10% that is unemployed at this time in this country

“You are not paying for their crime. They pay for their crimes.”
No they are being archived away till they learn to behave. Yes, I know that does not work either.

“by being treated like animals by people like you,”
Not by me. By the his own cell mates and in return they do it to the next guy.

“But suddenly, when it comes to prisoners, people like you suddenly think that freedom and liberty that you took from them, these values so highly regarded otherwise, are now completely worthless, not even worth enough to compensate for the costs that come naturally with any deal.” “This is pure hypocrisy,”
Remember, did not take. And, that is just too pacifistic and ignorant to give an answer to.

In the real world it is still dog eat dog. Get use to it. Never stop having lofty dreams of a utopian society. But, if you think you can stop looking both ways when crossing the road. You will just get run over.

@JLeslie Let me see what I can do..It’s a pretty long article…

@ChazMaz Who said anything about a joint. Where I live an ounce is enough to get you 10 years behind bars.

Time to get back on the legalizing bandstand.

Now that is just F-uped.