Why does fake = bad?

I think that human flesh is sexually arousing; not so much plastic bags full of saline or silicone.

Spending tens of thousands of dollars on unnecessary surgery shows narcissism, and reflects an insecure personality. I have not come across any ‘enhancement’ that looks natural enough for me, but then I am trained to look at people’s body shapes carefully.

In general, I think people resent being lied to – even if the lie is an awesome one about how aroused and fertile someone is. Once you find out it’s a lie, would you still be interested?

@laureth has a great point: it really amounts to dishonest courtship. Who wants a dishonest lover?

@laureth what if they’re not lying about having implants?

So is it dishonest to, for example, have implants as part of recovery from mastectomy?

@Simone_De_Beauvoir The activity itself is the lie. One does not wear a sign, or broadcast from a bullhorn while walking down the street that one has implants.

@ccrow Very different story. Breast reconstructions are important for mental health, not narcissistic indulgences.

What @dpworkin said.

1. Reconstructive surgery is generally aimed at making you look how you honestly did before the surgery.

2. Getting implants to make your breasts larger artificially disrupts an honest (albeit usually unconscious) assessment of a woman’s fertility. Physical attraction, at a gut level, seems to be related to things like this.

@dpworkin OK then, but one doesn’t know by sight whether that is the case, so why automatically dismiss someone as narcissistic/frivolous/whatever?

@dpworkin yes but she might be able to share it with you when you get sexual and have no issues doing so

Since my question spurred yours, I thought I would answer! I know I specifically said that enhanced or not are an individuals choice. I would never dream of judging (I hope) in a deliberately unkind way. I was just curious as to why they worked so well, even in business, despite what men say. However my own personal opinion is I cannot identify with a woman wanting to enhance those body parts. I never correlated my femininity with my tits, their size or shape. I also don’t agree with traumatic surgery that is in the name of vanity or to change the shape of our sexual parts in order to gather a bit of self esteem. The breast particularly is the highest requested and practised surgery this century. One has to ask does the breast make the woman? (in this context).

I am bisexual and being a woman, I would not find enhanced breasts a turn on at all. In my mind probably incorrectly they become almost like they have no feeling because they are so round and well false. However that is my personal choice. I have had lovers with tiny boobs which I adored. Larger ones I loved. It didn’t really matter. I just need to know at this point why so many women need to make their tits bigger. Can someone explain?

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Lets assume that psychologists are correct, and that men look for fertility cues, and women look for status when seeking a mate. When you are finally ready to be intimate with the man in the Rolex who drives a Mercedes and wears Charles Lobb shoes, it it OK if he tells you he has no income, stole the car and the watch, and got the shoes as a gift from another woman?

@dpworkin well I don’t agree with the first notion, so it all doesn’t see comparable to me..but whatever, I get what you’re saying…this, apparently, would be such a tragedy to you..it’s just boobs, who cares?!

This is a question between what we value as “authentic” versus a simulation. Baudrillard had much to say about this post-modern philosophy of hyperreality – When a substitute becomes more real than the real. We say we value the authentic, but then we buy pre-worn jeans and inflatable lawn ornaments. We ogle over photoshopped fashion models knowing that no one really looks like that. We prefer to buy status and value rather than earn it.

It’s no tragedy, it’s just unappealing.

@simpleD Can I nuzzle into your shoulder for the mention of Baudrillard’s work?
@dpworkin Look I hate fake people and fake things and all that, as well but I don’t get this obsession with being lied to…as if the person with the implants got these things so that she can ruin your process of being appealed to…

Oh, well, if you read the succession of posts, I objected only aesthetically until someone else mentioned dishonesty, and that seemed to me to be a pretty good reason to dislike it, too.

@dpworkin Let me clarify that I don’t think implants are necessary, at all (except in special circumstances) and I am certainly not advocating these things because women don’t need anything fixed…that being said, it sounds like women can’t win…they have to be this ideal that everyone tells them to be, they try to get through augmenting themselves and then they’re told that’s fake and also inappropriate…so what’s a woman influenced by society (and that’s like what 90%) to do?

@Simone_De_Beauvoir well it’s time women thought for themselves.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir: nuzzle away. I much prefer to attract with my knowledge of Baudrillard than with my chest.

@Just_Justine listen, no one would be happier than me if people though for themselves – it ain’t happening, though.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I agree that women are a victim of a huge marketing hoax. In my experience most men are much more attracted to actual humans than to simulacra. It’s a tragedy that so many women find it so difficult to accept themselves as they are. “Real” men (to quote a meme from your other post) prefer “Real” women, in my experience.

@dpworkin okay now I’m gonna have to nuzzle your shoulder for the use of the word simulacra

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I know

You will find that my shoulder is made of flesh and bone.

@dpworkin got it right on his first comment. Natural body parts, human flesh, real boobs are very sexually attractive. Saline filled boobs are not sexually attractive. The way a woman’s breasts move when they are natural is what makes them so appealing. And that applies to big ones or small ones. But there is another aspect and I cannot identify what it is, I just know that once I know they’ve been “faked”, no matter how good the job is, the attraction for the woman sexually disappears. I can be friends, can like her, just no sexual attraction. I can’t explain that.

@dpworkin wouldn’t matter to me

Fake=bad because the faker is trying to be something or someone they are not.

@plethora Sexual attraction is a fragile thing. As soon as I see even the most beautiful woman light a cigarette, the lead goes out of my pencil.

@marinelife Maybe they are trying to restore themselves to what they have always been before.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir You are right about attracting with the mind. Lest this become all about tits, as a man, if there is no attraction at the mental and emotional level, then it really doesnt matter whether the boobs are fake or real. And I know this because I have been very attracted to flat chested women who just had what it took in terms of confidence and mental appeal.

@plethora well it’s the only thing that’s ever gotten anyone into my pants – intelligence, no matter the size of the boobs

@dpworkin I am exactly the same way about seeing a woman smoke.

@dpworkin @plethora i’ll take all your beautiful smokers, please..I don’t have a pencil full of lead

eww, simone, it’s like kissing an ashtray.

@dpworkin @Simone_De_Beauvoir Yeah….kissing an ashtray. Not only that, nicotine oozes from the pores and affects the way they smell (and taste, if you get that close)

Seems like a colossal waste of time to get all bent over what someone else decides to do with their body.

@dpworkin I like it…been there done that…love the smell of nicotine on people

@Simone_De_Beauvoir phew thank heavens .. puff puff..

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Each to his fancy, said Nancy, as she kissed the cow.

@dpworkin @Simone_De_Beauvoir Agreed…LOL. We all have our little preferences.

So if fake = bad, does that apply to hair color as well?
Is natural hair color on a woman (or man) more appealing than dyed hair?
What if she has gray or white hair, and looks older than she is because of it?
If it’s about fertility, then wouldn’t gray or white hair signal her being less fertile?
Would fake hair color be the same as fake boobs, dishonest?

Dyed hair still looks and feels like hair.

@wilma I think there is a big difference to cutting open your flesh, shoving a bag of silicone inside your breast or removing an old bag for maintenance and cutting away fatty scar tissue around it, is a bit different to adding colour to your hair. Any way I think women look hotter with their own colour hair. Too many blondes on this earth for my liking. Wish I would turn grey fast.

@dpworkin you gotta pay for that ~ Rite Aid dye makes it feel awful

I very much oppose the whole notion a woman shouldn’t get implants because they aren’t natural. Tattoos aren’t natural and many find them beautiful, many straighten their hair and that isn’t natural either. But women get judged for damn everything. I know this is crazy but sometimes people get plastic surgery just because it’s something they want to do for themselves. If you don’t find it sexy good for you but sometimes it isn’t about you.

@dpworkin Exactly…dyed hair still looks and feels like hair. Lips still look and feel like lips with lipstick on them, etc.

@hug_of_war ok well then please explain why women want bigger boobs? No one can answer that.

@Just_Justine because they think that’s what makes them attractive – because of bits and snippets they hear from everyone around them, from magazines, from the media, from ex-boyfriends, from frenemies.

@hug_of_war I would never suggest that people shouldn’t be allowed to adorn themselves however they please. I just happen to find fake breasts unattractive. That’s the question I answered, not whether they should be banned.

Maybe guys should get bigger ball implants, I am trying to imagine them, walking around strutting with massive size balls. Saying look at me, I am full of sperms I am so fertile.

@Just_Justine , yes I agree that breast surgery is way different than coloring hair. I was just wondering about how people felt about the fake aspect of it.

@hug_of_war A woman can get fake boobs if she wants them for whatever reason. It’s none of my business. I’m simply saying that that woman is no longer attractive to me when she does it.

@Just_Justine they don’t need to – apparently their fertility is not what matters, psychologists (and I’ll disagree) would say

@wilma yes and a good point too. Glad you noted the less traumatic experience of hair dying though. But on the matter of hair, you know we could go on to how everyone is turning blonde, from afro Americans, to Spanish to whatever. Blonde is so killed right now. Agh! If I see another blonde I will scream. Natural hair is best, in texture and it suites you normally.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir yes I know, and what attracts women is men with money, able to create shelter in the cave all that. Women need to be young to reproduce so clear skin is important which signifies youth. However breasts don’t feature at all. What does feature are triggers and the highest triggers are hair, and backsides. However media saturation can encourage new triggers. But all said and done why do young boys of 21 like me when I am 47? so pooft on that theory. (short hair no backside) men like my feet. Perhaps they have a new “stamp me to death” desire which we need to add to out dated ideas of attraction.

@Just_Justine LOL! for the ” walking around strutting with massive size balls. Saying look at me, I am full of sperms I am so fertile.”

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I agree with your disagreeing. Fertility does matter in a man, for most women, at least when the woman is young. It’s not the only thing, but I do think that subconsciously it counts, along with the ability to provide for (money) and protect, muscles.

@plethora who gives a fuck if she’s not attractive to you? You’re pretty insignificant in the scheme of things.

@Just_Justine all of these ‘evolutionary’ qualifiers don’t matter as much as people think they do – that’s why boys who are young are attracted to you.

@hug_of_war Too much coffee, hon?

I care what @plethora thinks.
If I didn’t care about the answers, I wouldn’t have read the question.

@hug_of_war Let’s not get nasty…..the question is why does fake = bad? I’m simply giving my opinion on it. Fake = bad to me because fake is not attractive to me. Period. No judgement intended.

The only FAKE that is truly offensive would be the personality. I can usually tell when someone is being false with me and I just want to walk away and never deal with them again, if I could excercise that option. (which I have done on not nearly enough occasions)

If the person wants to alter their physical self to be more comfortable, I won’t dislike them for it. They have to live in that body, so they might as well like it.

I would also add that physical attributes aside, the most attractive characteristics of a man to me are, intelligence and kindness, but those are kind of hard to fake.

OK @plethora , re your last post above, what about this situation: In your 20s you were a sun worshipper, Now you’re 40 but your face says you’re 55. Is it fake/unattractive to have, say, a chemical peel to restore a more youthful appearance? Not being nasty here :-)

You can train yourself to notice with shapes. It is not that I hate a woman who would do that kind of thing, it is simply unattractive to me.

@ChaosCross why do you need to train yourself?

@wilma ditto on the most attractive aspects of a woman

@Just_Justine Agh! If I see another blonde I will scream. Natural hair is best, in texture and it suites you normally.

I agree. Fake blonds give us real blonds a bad name! ;)

@ccrow To me, not at all. On the boobage, enhancement (not reduction) changes the way they look, feel and move. Movement of the breast is HUGE, at least for me. As is feel.

@jonsblond I was born platinum blonde but went darker and darker. I spent years highlighting my hair only to discover my own hair was now a chocolate brown. I love it! Real true light blonde hair is very rare in adults so good for you. I live in a beach city where everyone is blonde with a tan. So I have gone Goth!

@ChaosCross If you have to “train yourself to notice”, how is it so unattractive? Wouldn’t you notice it w/out training then?

@ccrow Let me qualify on the movement part because there are women with very small breasts that don’t move at all. I was involved with one for a good while. She had flat breasts that didnt move and she had very very noticeable stretch marks on them. I thought she was very erotic and sexy. They felt real and they looked real because they were….it was her attitude about them that made them so sexy to me. She was proud of them and said so…..loved it.

.

Because fake=false and false is the opposite of truth and truth is good.

I think I’ll hop in here and throw my opinion out there.

I myself have never been with a woman with implants, well, I think, see there was this one time at band camp….. So I really couldn’t tell ya the feel, but it’s not that hard to differentiate the difference between the two or four or how many you’re comparing. So as for training (@ChaosCross), it isn’t necessary. I do very much agree with @dpworkin & @plethora, movement and feel are very attractive features, sexually. I’m not going to go into detail about the movement features (sexually), because it doesn’t take the brightest star to know what I meant by that, but I will with the feeling aspect.

I once had my way with this female. She really wasn’t my type or at least she wasn’t the norm for type I looked for in a mate. It had been awhile and we were both single and needed some touch. During the act, at one point she was riding, as is usually enjoyable. Although, as most men would, I reached up to touch and squeeze her breasts, as most women love. Then and there, I would’ve went flaccid, but I was already inside her and was being stimulated. They were the weirdest feeling breasts I had ever had in my hands. Needless to say, I just let her get her rocks off and that was it. After that encounter I just was not feeling it (literally and pun intended) anymore.

So, I could imagine how fake breasts would feel like. It’s not something that can be duplicated by a man with a knife and a water balloon. I would suffice to say that smooth perky breasts are very arousing, but if they’re not right in squeezie’s department, then the deals off.

Also, to comment on the hair. I was also platinum blond as a child. I’m now dark brown, with a tiny bit of grey showing (so I’m told). Hair color is real easy to fake, since it pretty much looks and feels like hair and since hair can differ between person to person on texture, thickness and color. Who’s the one to say that they can honestly tell the difference (without training ;)? I myself am not usually attracted to white women, you can laugh here, lol. So the typical baby blues and blond flowing hair doesn’t really “do it for me.” There’s been very few blonds that I’ve been honestly attracted to, but who’s to say that’s because most blonds aren’t real? Ah HAAA! So maybe hair does effect the “fake=bad” aspect.

@Just_Justine also, to elaborate on the “rare”-ness of blonds. The Blond gene in humans is a dying breed. Also, did you know there’s two different kind of red head genes and the only way for them to rise in their kin is if the two gene’s were to meet? Someone with brown, black, or even blond hair might have the gene, but until it meets another who has the other gene (which also doesn’t have to be a red head) it won’t show. Kind of creepy, huh?

Oh and also, I have 1 huge ball and I could fill your pool with sperm, lmao. ;P

@Axemusica I never thought my daughter and I would be on an endangered species list. Interesting.

@jonsblond well @blondsjon is natural right? I think it should be passed on to your daughter, but I wouldn’t be surprised if she wasn’t when she grows up.

@Axemusica My son (he is 17 now), my daughter (she’s 6) and I were all born with platinum blond hair. We all have a dirty dish water blond color now that gets very blond during the summer months when we spend a lot of time in the sun. Thanks for posting that link, I do find it very interesting. :)

sorry to get off topic folks

@ccrow What, pray tell, are you when you accuse “you guys” of being judgemental? Most people don;t care a rat’s ass if people enhance their personal appearance either temporarily or more permanently.

Your premise that Fake=Bad is wrong. Fake=Not as valuable is more to the point. Do you always equate good/bad with value? The human predilection for nubile bodies, thick heads of hair and good coloring comes from the idea that health and youth are indicators of fertility ergo more valuable as a mate.

By the same token a faux (fake) fur or jewel is not a bad item but a less valuable one. In fact a faux fur might be judged as good because it feels as soft as a real one, serves the same purpose in providing warmth but doesn’t contribute to the extinction of a species.

Fake doesn’t necessarily equal bad. People judge things based on what they like and don’t like. There are works of art that have been faked and the fake is as sought after as a real work by that artist. It just all depends on what you like.

Often times, fakes are of a much lower quality—so then it is obvious why people like the real thing. However, as technology improves, we have situations where we have “imitation” diamonds that are nearly indistinguishable from the kind found in the ground. Is the fake bad?

Hair coloring, too, is a matter of taste. I respect a woman and how she chooses to make herself look. I don’t mind colored hair when it is clear that someone is not trying to pass for something they aren’t. But I would have to say that if I found out that someone I thought was a blonde was actually a brunette, I’d probably be disappointed.

I don’t know what the point of hair coloring is. But then, I’m not all that big on women spending a lot of time getting all dolled up. Especially if it makes us late.

I can see someone who is going gray coloring their hair, but even then, I doubt it. I have a friend who used to color her hair, and I told her I didn’t think it was necessary. One day she showed up looking natural, and my God! Was she beautiful! I guess I just find natural looking people to be more attractive.

I think that people who are unclothed all pretty much look a lot better than wearing clothes. Clothes seem to compress and define and, well, I don’t like it.

With sexual attraction—I can appreciate what women do in order to get into playboy or to be sex workers. I can let myself be turned on by it—when I want to masturbate. It’s just a fantasy then. I use fantasy to masturbate. It’s all good.

But for a relationship—it’s a whole ‘nother story. Then the fakeness of sex workers or women in their fake smiles with their fake cheery attitudes—a big turnoff. If I see a woman putting on some kind of coy look or trying to look girlish—why should I take that seriously? That’s just game playing and I’m just not interested. I want to know what’s really going on. I want the good and the bad, not just the fake.

Fake has it’s place. Fake is not bad. It’s just not what I am interested in when I’m serious about a person or a thing. I’ve been known to ask people to give me the real deal—something that shows the truth beneath that smile. I’m interested in the real woman, not the surfaces she hides behind. If she can’t give me that, then she can’t give me anything.

If you object to anything unnatural, such as breast implants, how do you feel about people who have had braces?

In a society that still judges women on their appearance, some women feel the need to have their noses recontoured or their fatty tummies improved or their breasts enhanced.

While it may be unfortunate that such women might have felt inadequate as nature made them, they certainly have the right to their decisions.

Such women are not necessarily fake. Many freely admit to the men they date that they “had some work done.” If they are authentic as people, what right do others have to write them off?

Do women who had orthodontic work done have to confess to men they date?

What about a teen who received a nose job for her 16th birthday?

Why are breast enhancements held in such disdain?

If women are honest when asked by men with whom they are considering producing offspring, then they are not fakes.

Society is tough on people whose appearance deviates greatly from normative (artificial) standards. People do what they can to achieve acceptance. Living as a marginalized person must be an ongoing agony.

I am very attracted to breasts and well shaped natural looking boobs are especially appealing. My first wife had tiny boobs but she was unfaithful in the first year of the marriage. My subsequent wives were buxom. In my single periods I dated women of all shaped and sizes. Ultimately I learned to stop marrying women I thought I could fix.

I am married to a woman who is perfect just as she is and her character is what I adore and value the most. At 60 her lovely boobs are influenced by gravity more than might have been true decades ago. I don’t care one bit! I am delighted that she loves me.

Being judgmental about people’s natural or revised external appearance is pretty shallow behaviour. As long as people are honest about themselves and are good people, who has the right to judge them?

@Dr_Lawrence Not sure where the judgemental thing crept into the thread. We all have preferences. I am bald/shaved. Some women don’t care for that. They don’t have to justify it. It’s just a preference hidden somewhere deep in their psyche and that’s ok with me. I have an identical preference when it comes to smokers. I avoid dating them. Same preference with fake boobs, enhanced boobs, whatever. The appearance is certainly fake, so I call them fake. Smoking and fake boobs, I draw the line. i just steer clear. There is no judgement involved on my part. (I will note that I do not have the same feeling regarding breast reductions because, in my experience, the reduction does not leave them looking fake. They still look and act like natural boobs…which is what I find appealing)

@plethora “Why are people so judgemental” directly from @ccrow ‘s question.

@galileogirl I didn’t accuse anyone of being judgmental, the ‘you guys’ came from this: “how do you guys know if they’re fake or not”. I stand by saying “Why are people so judgmental” because I believe it to be true, not only on this issue but many others.
“Your premise that Fake=Bad is wrong. Fake=Not as valuable is more to the point. Do you always equate good/bad with value?” That’s you doing the equating, not me.

Boing

I don’t think Fake= Bad..but it does equal unnatural.

I’m more of a naturalist myself.

I accept that my body, breasts and face will change as I age.

I am okay with that.

I have a feminine, pretty, gypsy style, little makeup, hair long or in pigtails..( I’ll tell you what…. more men love my pigtails…lololol ) and am very comfortable with my aging process.

My best friend who IS, by ALL standards a true beauty, is about to dump another 7 or 8k into her face.

Her insecurities are very painful to her.

Me….fucking no way…, never go under the knife, I like myself just as I am, and anyone worth a damn will like me as I am too!

Screw cosmetic enhancements…I’m going to Malaysia, the Belgian Congo Madagascar and the French Guianas! Let the parts fall where they may! lolololol

Hah! The blonde thing..I’m still quite natural, ( a few home hi-lights ) and a very few strands of gray showing up..I was a near albino as a child…picture Robert Plant with Edgar Winters white blonde hair. lolol

I was a crazy little wild haired goldilocks.

My daughters father was dark haired and hazel eyed, me blonde and blue, my daughter came out honey blonde with big BROWN eyes…a very pretty combo! No accounting for those wild genes.

According to my family it must have been the milkman as I was the only blue eyed towhead in remebered history. hahaha