Why does Texas think that it is a good idea to allow guns on campuses?

They hope to prevent a Va tech.

Yes, or at least it’s not a bad idea. Criminals bring them in anyway, so restricting law abiding students from doing so has no positive effect on gun crime. When I was a freshman at college, a student was held up at gunpoint. The school is completely weapon free, but somehow that mugger didn’t get the memo. And we can clearly see that psychopaths intent on killing fellow students and faculty members will bring full long arms onto the campus. Maybe an armed student could stop them, maybe not, but they definitely won’t if they’re not allowed to arm themselves.

I think people who get upset about rules like this a very confused about the different people who have guns, criminals and law abiding citizens. As @incendiary_dan said, the criminals will have them anyway but will be far more detered in killing many people if a law abiding citizen can match the threat.

People with concealed carry permits who want to be able to carry on campus are the last people you should worry about.

@WestRiverrat says the idea is to prevent another Va Tech. I agree with him.

Think about it. If someone is hell bent on killing a large number of people (like Cho, or Harris & Klebold, and so on) do you think a sign like this will make them think twice? The student with a concealed carry permit will obviously abide by the rules, but the would-be mass murderer isn’t going to give two shits, to put it bluntly. You might as well let lawfully armed students have their guns to level the playing field. I’m sure folks will be along to propose all sorts of scenarios where more people would be killed in the crossfire, or whatever, but personally, I’d rather take my chances and let students have a fighting chance against potential psychopaths.

@Fiddle_Playing_Creole_Bastard said: I’m sure folks will be along to propose all sorts of scenarios where more people would be killed in the crossfire, or whatever

Before anyone decides to use that as an actual objection, I’d just like to point out that crossfire is nowhere near as dangerous as someone intent on killing who has time to aim, as well as reload, and is maybe carrying a few extra mags. Maybe a gunfight adds a randomization to it, but that’s still a hell of a lot better than letting someone take the time to aim at their unarmed targets.

It’s Texas; that should say it all.

@incendiary_dan I would be more inclined to agree with you if there was a requirement that all gun owners be able to use their firearm competently in much the same way that we license people to drive. There are too many stories of accidents that are due solely to the negligence and/or incompetence of the gun owner that I feel bad for all of the responsible gun owners out there when I reluctantly agree that some gun control is necessary.
I have no objections to a person carrying a firearm to defend themselves so long as I know that I won’t catch a stray round due to their stupidity.

I have no problem with responsible adults carrying a concealed firearm. They do have the right to keep and bear arms. If they live on the campus, that does make it their home, and I wouldn’t want anybody to tell me which legal product I could not keep in my home. Nobody is forcing anybody to have or carry a weapon. There shouldn’t be laws forcing anybody to have anything that they don’t want. But if you want, and will concede that one should be at the age of majority, then your rights shouldn’t be taken away just because you are a college student.

@jerv, statistically, gun owners who legally carry concealed are among the safest citizens (I’ll dig up the statistics, if you want me to).

@jerv I don’t think I get your objection: a stray round, even from an irresponsible gun owner, is still less likely to hit you than an aimed one. Anyway, around here being able to shoot well is a requirement.

@Fiddle_Playing_Creole_Bastard I will take your word on that. The people I know who have CCW permits are responsible gun owners, but I am not comfortable assuming that everyone with a CCW permit is. I am just cynical.

@incendiary_dan True, but a stupid person is more likely to have an accidental discharge than a savvy one, and a round in the gun is less likely to hit me than one coming out of a barrel. That’s all I’m saying.

Given UT was the first campus to have a mass killer , the idea of the trying to stop another Va. Tech is a little odd.

And given the amount of alcohol consumed, the idea of college students carrying weapons is pretty scary.

@jerv, well, works for me.

Certainly if someone on the Va. Tech campus had a legal firearm and knew how to use it, the death toll there might have been far less. What is not entirely clear is how many licensed gun owners are likely to lose their temper and common sense, and use a legal concealed weapon to setle an argument that otherwise might have ended in nothing worse than a fist fight or a bit of wrestling. A number of schools do now permit concealed carry if the gun owner is properly licensed. It will take time, but we will find out whether the arguments pro being armed in school outweigh the arguments against, or not.

@ETpro, What is not entirely clear is how many licensed gun owners are likely to lose their temper and common sense, and use a legal concealed weapon to setle an argument that otherwise might have ended in nothing worse than a fist fight or a bit of wrestling.

Like I mentioned before to @jerv, this really doesn’t happen. Hardly at all, actually. In TN, for example (I think these requirements are Federal… I’m not sure), one has to meet the following requirements to get the permit:

* They’ve never been convicted of “any felony offense punishable for a term exceeding one (1) year”.
* They’ve never been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.
* They’ve never been convicted of the offense of stalking.
* They were not under indictment at the time they applied for a CCW.
* They were not the subject of an order of protection at the time they applied for a CCW.
* They haven’t had a DUI in the past five years or two or more DUIs in the past 10 years
* They haven’t been under treatment for or hospitalized for addiction to drugs or alcohol in the past 10 years.
* They’ve never been adjudicated as mentally defective.
* They’ve never been discharged from the military under dishonorable conditions (“dishonorable discharge, bad conduct discharge or other than honorable discharge Chapter 1340–2-5—.02 (5)”).
* They’ve never renounced their U.S. citizenship.
* They’ve never received social security disability benefits “by reason of alcohol dependence, drug dependence or mental disability.”

To me, that makes people with CCW permits sound like a pretty law abiding and safe group to begin with. Additionally, (and according to the Texas Department of Public Safety and the U.S. Census Bureau, as reported in San Antonio Express-News,
September, 2000) Texas CCW holders (relevant to this topic, which is cool) are 14 times less likely to commit a crime. They are also five times less likely to commit a violent crime.

Also (though the data is a bit outdated), according to An Analysis of the Arrest Rate of Texas Concealed Carry Handgun License Holders as Compared to the Arrest Rate of the Entire Texas Population, (William E. Sturdevant, PE, September 11, 1999) People with CCW permits are 5.7 times less likely to be arrested for violent offenses than the general public and 13.5 times less likely to be arrested for non-violent offenses than the general public.

I’m not trying to argue or start a huge debate or anything, but information like this is why I don’t really worry too much about people with CCW permits being allowed to carry on their campuses and such. I just don’t think they are as dangerous or explosive as people think. But yeah, I appreciate you taking a measured perspective on this.

Yeah, I went to grad school at U.T. Austin and the whole time I was there all I could think was “Jeez, I’d feel a whole lot safer if all these massively intoxicated frat boys and bowheads were armed. Too bad they can’t carry guns.”

@Fiddle_Playing_Creole_Bastard I agree that most adults who have concealed carry licenses use their firearms responsibly. There are exceptions, but not many. What is the unknown is how will young people of college age behave when armed on campus. The inhibition center in the prefrontal lobe of the brain is one of the last to fully develop. That’s why high school and college age kids often do risky things and often fly into a rage and get into fights. Adults over 25 still sometimes do thise things, but far less often than those under 25.

@ETpro Absolutely. They are just kids. They have enough issues and stress and other things to deal with at college. College students can get themselves into enough trouble and cause themselves enough harm due to lack of maturity and good judgement without throwing guns into the mix, honestly, it’s such a bad idea.

@lillycoyote then we better disarm most of the US military. They come from the same age group as the college students after all.

The college students are supposed to be the cream of the crop.

It has been argued that the folks that choose to join the military are less mature and less intelligent than those that choose college.

Wasn’t it last year that Texas was talking about seceding from the union? I fully support them on that. Their they are more famous for installing a fast track to the chair than for helping their citizens succeed. Johnson came from Texas and bombed the hell out of a country that was no threat to us. Bush did him one better by bombing two of them. In Texas, if it can’t be settled by a gun or a bribe, it can’t be settled.

@WestRiverrat But those who are in the military receive extensive training, are trained to work as a unit and work in a command environment. It is not at all the same thing at all as armed college students acting as individuals.

Not true @lillycoyote, I was in the military. I had more extensive firearm safety training in the scouts than I got from the army.

There are just as many drunks in the army as there are on college campuses. Even where alcohol is prohibited. If soldier’s family couldn’t smuggle it in, they found ways to make it.

@WestRiverrat My son’s a 1st Lt., in the infantry and I beg to differ about the level of training his men get in how to handle their weapons safely. I also seriously doubt that drunkenness and drug use is higher in combat or when armed than it is on college campuses.

@WestRiverrat If you’re right, that the men and woman in the U.S. Military are no better trained, disciplined and led than a bunch of drunken college students then we really should disarm them I think.

Americans have a quasi-sexual obsession with guns.

@bob_, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

@bob_ That’s just the way we do things here. One second of Janet Jackson’s breast causes a firestorm of outrage but hours and hours of twisted serial killers, people being slaughtered with guns and dismembered with other objects and devices? That’s just prime time T.V. entertainment here in the U.S.A. Get the kids and sit down for family time with CSI, etc.

@Fiddle_Playing_Creole_Bastard That depends on what your definition of “is” is.

@jerv Arizona’s gun laws are more lax than Texas gun laws thank you. The “It’s Texas what do you expect?” thing really gets old. Besides the fact it’s a generalization of everyone who lives here.
I personally believe anyone should have the right to protect themselves. That being said, I don’t want everyone to have a gun. There should be some kind of mental evaluation test of some sort to go along with the other requirements to carry a firearm.

On duty they are trained and disciplined, off duty is when they get rowdy. Just like college students, they have to blow steam off sometime.

If being well trained and disciplined while on duty was all it took, why are so many college sports figures always in the news for doing foolish things?

During Dessert Shield, I would venture to guess that half of the ‘listerine’ sent to the troops was shipped through Lynchburg Tenn or Clermont, Ky. The NCOs made sure the troops stopped drinking at least 24 hours before they went into the field.

When you are stuck in a patch of sand for 6 months, you are going to have down time. Soldiers with down time are going to find ways to acquire alcohol, especially in a war zone. Officers let the NCO’s handle most of the issues and didn’t get involved if they could help it.

@WestRiverrat Yes, I know. My father was in the Navy in WWII and whenever they were ashore they requisitioned as much grain alcohol as they could for “cleaning the compass” on the ship. The stores officer once commented that “that compass must get really, really dirty” but knew exactly what was going on. There is plenty of drinking that goes on in the military, no doubt about. I still think your comparison of armed college students to the military is wrong. They are not the same circumstances at all. It is an entirely different context with entirely different issues that should be addressed and considered.

@Russell_D_SpacePoet The gun laws in NH aren’t exactly restrictive either ;)

As for mental evaluations, that is pretty much what I meant by “gun control”; the list that @Fiddle_Playing_Creole_Bastard posted. I think ’’’..adjudicated as mentally defective.” pretty much covers that base.

@lillycoyote I knew more about guns by age five than I was taught in the Navy. While some military people get decent training with firearms, that is far from universal.

@ETpro I can’t speak for those on the battlefield, but I know that I saw a lot of shipmates get nailed for crystal meth, and alcoholism is almost a prerequisite in some commands. I will neither confirm nor deny the cooks making their own wine or the guys in the engineering spaces setting up stills either.

Ok, I will compromise. Let the college students that are NG, Reserves or Active duty attached to ROTC units carry their service weapons.

@jerv I have repeatedly referred to the totality of training in the military. That involves more than just training in the technical use of firearms. This discussion was, I believe, about students on Texas campuses being permitted to carry concealed weapons. It has gotten sidetracked and I am no longer going to participate in the sidetrack.

@lillycoyote My point was that there really isn’t a difference between a lot of college kids and a lot of people in the military. Sorry if you missed that.

@jerv I didn’t miss your point, I just think you’re wrong. :-)

@WestRiverrat I’d vote for that.

It might work for a while, but we can expect criminals to upgrade their weapons’ power. Hand grenades and flame throwers, for example. Of course, law-abiding students in Texas will bring them too at some point. Saving lives. Deterring criminals. Then we’ll see criminals using nerve gas grenades, wearing masks and stunning students before they can draw their weapons. You think this is a problem? Not really. The clever Texan students will carry gas masks. You think this arm race is getting out of hand? Come on, weapons-free campuses are for wimps. This is Texas. Home of the cowboys.

@mattbrowne In case you are not being sarcastic, I would like to point out that the slippery slope you have outlined is a logical fallacy.

@lillycoyote Well, I guess I hung out with a bad crowd during my time in the service :/

@mattbrowne, I know you’re being sarcastic, but like @bobbinhood, said your logical fallacy is pretty glaring here.

Contrary to popular belief, you can’t buy hand grenades, flamethrowers, or nerve gas in US gun shops or at gun shows. The very, very few times that anything like this turns up is usually because a dead WWII vet’s blue-haired widow found his souvenirs in a closet and turned them in to the police.

Though flamethrowers are super easy to make, and in many cases a perfectly legal tool for clearing brush. However, they are also more of a risk to the person using it, in most cases, because of the poor designs. In any case, you could hardly conceal any decent flamethrower. They’re bulky.

All right, all right, I admit it. Nerve gas grenades and flamethrowers don’t kill people, people kill people.

Seriously, I don’t like this idea of arming students at all. But I live in Europe and there are cultural differences I have to respect. Texas is NRA country and the free people of Texas have the right to decide what they think is best.

@mattbrowne Yea, you’re in Europe, where in the last century some despot decided people shouldn’t have guns, then rounded up trade unionists, Jews, Roma, homosexuals, Poles, etc. and killed them en masse. And wasn’t that repeated a few times since then, on smaller scale? Quite the cultural difference.

I can take things to extremes too, when feeling a bit plucky. And of course, I’ll be the first to criticize the uneven application of gun control here to facilitate genocide and oppression.

@incendiary_dan Right, ‘cause a bunch of armed loonies would have stopped Hitler…

@bob_ A single armed loonie almost did. Unfortunately, Hitler finished his speech early and the bomb went off after he left. There were several other occurrences where resistance fighters who had gained access to contraband weapons almost took him out. All it would have taken was one round from a hunting rifle.

In another bit of European history, hunting rifles played a major role in Finnish resistance during the Winter War. They were used to pick off and harrass Soviet troops.

@Russell_D_SpacePoet If you think AZ gun laws are lax, bet you’ll be surprised to know that some of our legislators here in SC are trying to do away with the CWP and just let everybody carry…no special licensing or review required. While I think it might help level the playing field, so to speak, and while I also think our forefathers who framed the 2nd amendment to NOT include anything about having to take safety classes, pay $250., etc, I’m not sure that just banishing the CWP is a good idea. I mean, for people like me, who have a CWP and carry on occasion, it will just mean I won’t have to renew that license. But for anyone who can legally own a gun, to be able to carry that weapon anytime anyplace they want? I’m just not too keen on that idea.

@VS not having a CWP works in Vermont.

@WestRiverrat True, but New England is a saner place than much of the rest of the country; something I occasionally forget when I see some of the stupid, crazy shit that happens in Seattle. The first 30 years of my life got me used to rational people :/
Some places can get away with things that other places can’t due to cultural differences.

@jerv I’m not saying that you’re wrong that college students are necessarily, or intrinsically different than the young men and women who are in the military, just that the context, the structure and the environments are different. As far as the military is concerned; while the discipline and the training may fall short of the ideal, no one runs an army thinking “Well, we’ll just arm a bunch of kids without even attempting to train or discipline them; who we have no control or authority over and hope for the best.” If you’re arguing that the military is that much of a free for all, like a college campus is, well, I do think you’re wrong. And if you’re right, no wonder we’re still in Iraq and Afghanistan. If you’re right military needs to get it’s shit together. nder

@jerv “New England is a saner place than much of the rest of the country” You love to generalize about people and places.There are pockets of sanity and ignorance in every state. People are people.

@Russell_D_SpacePoet True, there are crazy and/or stupid people everywhere. But based on personal experience dealing with many people from all over the world (not just the US), I think I have enough data points to establish a baseline.
Or is it stupid to base things on experience and direct observation? I might agree if my entire opinion was based on only a few encounters as it takes more data than that to get an accurate average, but that is not the case so I am sticking with what I have observed with my own two eyes.

@incendiary_dan – I said there are cultural differences between America and Europe. You think that Nazism is part of European culture? And Europeans support stricter gun control laws because of the influence of Nazism? And Texas isn’t influenced by Nazism so they are more in favor of arming Texan students to fend off homicidal maniacs?

I’m not sure what you are trying to say.

@mattbrowne I was making an extremely obviously far fetched point. Felt appropriate.

Though I do regularly make the point that fascism is the natural result of Western societies and has at least minor influence on the thoughts and political workings.

Y’all ever heard of Godwin’s Law?

@bob_ Yes, and if I remember correctly that only applies when someone calls someone else in a conversation a Nazi.

@incendiary_dan No: “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches.”

@bob_ Interesting.

Anyway, I’ll always be the first to point out that Hitler modeled his lebensraum on Andrew Jackson’s Indian act, and the conquest and destruction of First Nations people in North America. And the first American gun control laws were basically copied from Nazi laws that disarmed specific groups, with the words changed to disarm people of African descent. And again we see, the uneven application of gun control as a means of oppression.

“I wish it to be remembered that I was the last man of my tribe to surrender my rifle.” – Sitting Bull

So maybe not so much cultural difference in this field.

Well, to me using far-fetched Nazism comparisons seems like an attempt to compensate a lack of real arguments. When students are bothered by a strict teacher they call them grammar nazis, a phenomenon most Germans find totally outrageous and very insulting to all the real victims of Nazism.

“Israel has incredibly strict gun control laws. Try to buy a handgun, and you’ll face perhaps a 3 month waiting period, police, medical and psychological checks and hard-to-win approval from the Interior Ministry. Prospective gun owners must also pass a gun competence test. A record of substance abuse or domestic violence means automatic disqualification. There are some exceptions to the tough controls. For example, Jewish settlers living close to Arab towns, and claiming the need for self defense, face less stringent restrictions. Palestinians, not surprisingly, complain about the settlers guns. In general, however, proliferation of guns is not seen as a problem in Israel.”

http://articles.cnn.com/1999-09-17/world/9909_17_israel.gun.control_1_gun-control-gun-homicides-tough-controls

I can’t imagine Israel trying to copy Nazi strategies.

@mattbrowne I can’t imagine Israel trying to copy Nazi strategies.

Then you clearly haven’t paid much attention or read anything besides mainstream Liberal bullshit. Almost every critical analysis I’ve read of politics in Israel, particularly Chomsky, makes the comparison. I mean, come on, it’s a classic and obvious example of copying the idea of lebensraum. But this is getting far too off topic.

@incendiary_dan – Mainstream liberal bullshit? Are you a member of the Tea Party?

@mattbrowne Well, if you haven’t even bothered to look at my profile by now, or bothered to pay the slightest attention to the opinions in the many, many discussions we’ve both participated in on this site, then I really can’t guide you any further. No, I’m not a Tea Partier. And wow. If you could even think that when I reference Chomsky, you are really out of the political loop.

@incendiary_dan Do you consider someone “out of the loop” if they are from somewhere other than the US? Different places have different cultures and viewpoints; dramatically different from American thinking.

@incendiary_dan It’s a real hoot to hear liberals being accused of being too supportive of Israel.

@Fiddle_Playing_Creole_Bastard Not true. For a while, here in Delaware, you could get hand grenades, (mostly stupid French ones though, for whatever that’s worth, and some British ones too ) and even projectiles full of mustard gas (in solid form) delivered right to your home, at no additional cost, with the purchase of a clamshell driveway. Wow! Gotta love that! :-O)

@jerv Sorry for the lack of response, I must have stopped following this question and only periodically checked back, but forgot. I was merely pointing out that not knowing that Tea Partiers and conservatives in general hate Noam Chomsky, and perhaps not even knowing who Chomsky is, displays a fair lack of critical knowledge of world politics. Therefore, asking if I’m part of the Tea Party after I referenced Chomsky (and have done so many times in conversations with @mattbrowne) seems, to put it bluntly, ignorant. I might not agree with everything the man says, but if you haven’t read “Hegemony or Survival” I think you might want to consider doing so before taking on global politics as a hobby.