Social Question

Unbroken's avatar

(NSFW) What are your thoughts on deviance?

Asked by Unbroken (9382 points ) November 29th, 2012

So by deviance I mean something other then the norm statistically speaking. See this.
This question started out at as sexual deviance but I have rethought it and would like to apply a wider base to it.
Do you consider all deviants morally corrupt? Or just the term itself that has negative connotations to it? What classification do you use as to whether some deviant behavior is condemnable?

Also if you are comfortable with this:
Where do you see yourself deviate and have you figured out how to market it as a positive trait to yourself and others? Or are you ashamed and hypercritical about it?

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80 Answers

cookieman's avatar

I have a statistically abnormal fascination with chocolate chip cookies. Does that count?

Okay, seriously now
While I may shake my head or be personally turned off (disgusted?) by certain choices, I hesitate to classify anything as “morally corrupt” so long as no one is hurt, neglected, or abused. And certainly so long as no children or animals are involved.

Coloma's avatar

Anyone that is into feces, farm animals, vomit, pedophilia or necrophilia should be eliminated from the gene pool. I offer up acres of wilderness for the deviants graveyard. lol

Unbroken's avatar

@cookieman Obviously you have a huge problem. Peanut butter or ginger cookies far outstrip the power of chocolate chip. : )

OK I will start this off. I like BDSM to some extent. However I see this as deviant behavior and have not indulged or shared in this behavior other then my fantasy life. Deviant behavior isn’t bad but to have some sort of such urge must indicate that I have a personal problem… right.. No healthy person should wish to expose themselves to that type of behavior, we are all equals here. Well maybe not.

I mean equality is something that is a very new goal historically speaking. Everything can or can not be a power game. And power games illicit strong emotional responses. Sex is ideally very emotional for me, why not bring that in. Could it be that is just very natural to have such proclivities?

Unbroken's avatar

@Coloma Those behaviors are very harmful to others. But wishing them all dead is possibly a deviation of your own. Shall we look into that? : )

Coloma's avatar

@rosehips My perverese humor dearest, I am not serious, well…maybe just a tad if I really delve into my shadow. lol

Unbroken's avatar

^Shadows are ripe for delving. I was teasing as well.
It is sad that the easiest but not acceptable conclusion for such acts are death.
I will admit to feeling a tad that way myself. Though I know it completely irrational and creates a bigger problem then it solves.

Coloma's avatar

@rosehips Agreed, I think it is just very hard for a fairly healthy mind to wrap itself around extremes. I once got blasted for joking about lynching someone and that I had the rope, the big tree and the horse. If you stick around long enough you’ll get my humor, subjective as it may be. :-)

Unbroken's avatar

I do get your sense of humor most of the time. My sense of humor just takes a while to ease out of it’s corner. I am sometimes deadpan or sneaky, but sometimes I just can’t think of anything equally funny to say so I appreciate but move on.

And I don’t think any one can scare me away at this point. Even if they bring out the lynch rope and the horse. Ya’ll are stuck with this stubborn lady. : )

snowberry's avatar

I’ve been a deviant for years. I’m probably considered a “deviant” right here on Fluther. After all, I don’t march to the same drum as the Fluther establishment, and I challenged it (not that they cared, except that they told me to shut up). We came to a “truce” of sorts, but they hold the big stick, obviously.

Coloma's avatar

@snowberry Intellectual deviance doesn’t count.
:-p

Adirondackwannabe's avatar

I think anything between consenting adults is fine. I’m pretty open minded.

Coloma's avatar

@Adirondackwannabe What about non-consenting Giraffes?

Adirondackwannabe's avatar

Well what do I give the giraffe in the morning? And how much of the bed do they take up?

Brian1946's avatar

@Adirondackwannabe

That can be problematic, which is why I have a guest house with a hole in the roof. ;-)

Adirondackwannabe's avatar

@Brian1946 Hey, genius. And it’s the guesthouse, so it doesn’t need too much heat.

Coloma's avatar

@Brian1946 I’m shocked!
I can just see it now, you, covered in honey and rolling around in a pile of rolled oats while the Giraffes 3 foot tongue caresses you. 0-o

Adirondackwannabe's avatar

@Coloma I’ve been around livestock a lot. I’m not sure he’d like that tongue

Blackberry's avatar

People used to be labeled deviants for smoking weed and participating in interracial relationships. It’s subjective and too vague.

bob_'s avatar

Live and let live, man.

Coloma's avatar

@Blackberry I’m going more with sexually/psychologically deviant.;-)
I smoke weed now and then, but I have never had sex with a Giraffe.
Rats and frogs yes.

Unbroken's avatar

@snowberry There is a Fluther establishment here. Uh oh… Well I refuse to find out what it is… So I’ll continue to be ignorantly deviant.

@Coloma intellectual deviance is indeed the most deviant and subversive kind. And my sex with rats and frogs is quite a talent. I would be proud of that accomplishment.

@Adirondackwannabe I have seen pictures of giraffes. They look gentle and adorable. Are you sure about their tongue.. It sounds like a good prospect to me. I mean 3 feet there is no beating tongue action like that.

@bob_ We need more space to go about that properly… @Coloma has been telling me she has plenty… I’m thinking of grandfathering myself some of that action.

@Blackberry I suppose it is a terribly vague notion. Even statistical data is lacking. But still we all have preconceived notions of deviant behavior.

Adirondackwannabe's avatar

@rosehips LMAO!!! Livestock tongues are rough and raspy. I would love a three foot long human tongue for oral.

wundayatta's avatar

If deviants are morally corrupt, then I’m morally corrupt. If I’m morally corrupt, I can’t live with myself. But I don’t want to die. Therefore the conventional notion of deviance is unacceptable. To believe that deviance is wrong is inhumane and, in fact, deviant, itself.

As a statistician, I know that everyone is deviant in some way. Most in many ways. Deviance is normal. Normality is therefore deviant.

Socially, we seek to enforce norms in order to allow society to run smoothly. However, it seems that we can be much more tolerant and still have a smoothly running society. Many “deviances” are non-threatening. Some, though are close calls. Those are the problems. We have many questions on fluther about such close calls.

And anyone who wants to know how I deviate need only read a few of my past posts on almost any subject.

Brian1946's avatar

Previously we had the human centipede, and now we’re entertaining the concept of a human giraffe. ;-o

Blackberry's avatar

@Coloma Even in the sexual category it can be quite vague. Children and dead people: quite deviant. BDSM, sex with fruit etc.: I’ll allow it, lol.

bob_'s avatar

Note to self: never accept fruit from @Blackberry.

Coloma's avatar

@Blackberry Here have a giant Idaho Potato and a bottle of olive oil on me.
When you’re done having fun with your little spud bud you can make french fries. lolol

Coloma's avatar

@Blackberry and especially not dead children. smacking self in face

Unbroken's avatar

@Adirondackwannabe I think you hit on a new plastic surgery fetish
@wundayatta So being completely statistically average is deviant. I like that idea!
@Brian1946 Human centipede what? I have seen the movie Fly about a human fly but what new kind of torture is this.
@Blackberry But no vegetable’s? Quite unkind.. I mean Fruit is juicy and vegetables are generally hard… Can you not see the benefit to both?
@bob_ second that
@Coloma LMAO… better then poopcorn and pancakes Blackberry French fries!

Adirondackwannabe's avatar

Oh god guys, we’ve reached new heights of debauchery. It’s so much fun.:)

wundayatta's avatar

Well, shoot, I like this question. But was hoping people would provide some more serious answers, too.

Coloma's avatar

^^^Depravity at it’s finest…...Marvelous, have someones head up my ass or stuff my head up someone elses…choices, choices.

Haleth's avatar

That article was pretty good food for thought, actually. I liked the way they defined deviance, as a variation from the norms of a society, and how that’s different from the laws of a society. (I liked their parking tickets vs. piercings example.)

Values are so different across different cultures that there’s no universal standard for normal or deviant behavior. If more people believed that, we’d probably have fewer religious conflicts, for one thing.

With globalization, societies are becoming more connected, so I think we’re moving in a direction where different values systems can co-exist.

Mariah's avatar

To each his own, live and let live, etc. As long as nobody is getting forced or coerced into something they don’t want to do.

Coloma's avatar

Then necrophilia is okay? You can’t hurt a corpse, but is it possible to violate it’s dignity?

ETpro's avatar

Deviance as defined in your link is most definitely not synonymous with immorality. In Nazi Germany, it was deviant not to persecute and turn in for slaughter one’s Jewish, Gypsy or homosexual neighbors. Was that morally right? There are ample examples of cultural norms within a given social order that we today would find absolutely abhorrent.

I personally am fond of many things that would be classed as deviant. Like @cookieman, I draw the morality line at coercion, physical or emotional harm, abuse, or involving those that cannot give informed consent.

Unbroken's avatar

@wundayatta of course that is the hope but where ever the tide pool turns I’m OK with it, this is in social.
@Brian1946 Lol I can’t believe I haven’t heard of the human centipede by now I have a friend who loves these kinds of flicks and loves to show them around. Course I haven’t seen her in ages there were some pretty funny b movies though. I admit I kinda like Bruce Campbell. Thanks for the link by the way.
@Coloma How bout your in the middle… That way you can experience both. No need to deprive the depravity.. : ) I am not sure on necrophilia. I mean it’s more likely to piss other people off, but if I had to choose between someone messing with a dead person or a child… Well I know what I would pick.
@Haleth loved your link. And I certainly hope so, but there will be all sorts of resistance. Our generation will probably never see it. And off to the next life.
@Mariah consent has always been a shade of gray but I agree.
@ETpro Ideally and technically deviance and morality aren’t synonymous but we both know that in practice perceived notions of morality are linked with deviance. Which may or may not change per culture per decade or era. So in order for a person to be normal and accepted in society they have a choice of hiding the deviance finding people like them and retreating or spinning it or just being enormously thick skinned. Wonder what is the most popular choice of the masses?
Also coercion and emotional harm can be hard to determine as well as an age of consent so while I agree with you I think this is an oversimplification.

Mariah's avatar

@Coloma I do think sex with a corpse requires the person’s consent before death in order to be okay. Necrophilia alone (the attraction, not the action) is neutral in my mind.

ETpro's avatar

@rosehips Repression and denial are the overwhelming choice of the masses. And their righteous indignation at those that don’t follow that formula is born of jealousy. How dare s/he enjoy what I have begrudgingly avoided my whole life?

Agreed that age of consent is a socially determined and arbitrary limit. Some 16 year old kids are incredibly mature and self actualized. Plenty of adults will live out their natural lives and never become so.

Unbroken's avatar

@Mariah You have me envisioning a place where people donate their bodies to be forever sexed. That’s a little creeperish. But maybe I am just being judgemental.

@ETpro You are probably right. I am picturing that beautiful movie American Beauty. It was visually spectacular. And induced thought. I think 16 year olds are rarely as actualized as they think they are. But I think actualization is in part experience so withholding people except maybe from someone going through the newness is somewhat understandable. Though the idea of teachers seems to be an intriguing thought to me.

Also there are people with very low IQ’s or disabilities. They still have urges, I’m not sure what the law on this is.

I added the emotional part. Because of things like Stockholm syndrome etc. Or dependency or codependency issues.

ETpro's avatar

@rosehips You are right, it’s extremely complex. Perhaps that’s a part of why societies decide to sweep it all under the rug.

augustlan's avatar

Whatever occurs between consenting adults (sexual or otherwise) is fine by me. I may not be interested in joining in, but that doesn’t make it immoral.

Also, speaking of necrophilia… here’s a Fluther gem for your perusal: http://www.fluther.com/33196/can-you-give-permission-for-someone-to-have-sex-with-your/

rojo's avatar

@augustlan It appears your reluctance is only to “joining in”; I noticed you did not say you would not watch. Is this apparent omission significant? Hmmmmmmmmm?

wundayatta's avatar

Necrophila
A corpse is not a person. It is an object that belongs to those who cared about the person formerly inhabiting that body. If you do something to the corpse without the approval of the people who care about the corpse, they you might well be hurting them. Not cool. Since, in general, just about everyone uses corpses as objects for mourning, it is highly deviant to use it in any other way.

It’s still just dead meat. Rotting meat. Unless it has been preserved. But the people who own it have a lot of feelings about it, and to them, it is not dead, rotting meat. In fact, they may still see it as a person.

Adulthood
Can you set an arbitrary age as an age of consent? It certainly doesn’t allow for variation in abilities. Is it true that older men often have more experience and they use this to get girls to sleep with them or do other things that might not be to the best advantage of the girl? You betcha!

Is it always bad for a girl to have sex with an older man or with lots of boys her age? Some would say yes. Others would not agree. How do we know when a person in a weaker position can consent to something of their own free will without being manipulated to an unacceptable degree? Hmm. I think I’ll ask that.

Unbroken's avatar

@ETpro Procrastination it’s an all American past time.
@augustlan thank you, you are so generous with Fluther gems, this is delightful. I can see why there are so many missed here. Seems like a hearty crew.
@rojo You don’t happen to be an exhibitionist? I ask for auggie’s sake of course
@wundayatta Wait let me get this knot untwisted. A dead person is property which can be owned. Presumably by the people who pay for the funeral or burial expenses? I agree people are very protective of the corpse and have a lot of cultural rules for it, and they would indeed be very angry. But at what point do they become objects that are owned? I mean this could very well reinforce the fact that people could buy time to be with these individuals. Especially as the previous thread pointed out we are already chopping up bodies for organs and science.
As to Age of consent I can’t disagree.

Coloma's avatar

Well…I’d much prefer my remains to be diced up in the name of science over being sodomized by a grave robber. I may be dead, but I certainly am not going to donate my corpse to deviants. lol

augustlan's avatar

@rojo I’m as deviant as they come, baby. ;) Not really.

@wundayatta It is hard to determine whether someone of any age can freely consent, but we have to draw the line somewhere. I err on the side of keeping people under 18 out of the equation altogether (unless they are with a like-aged partner, then maybe down to 15?)

wundayatta's avatar

@rosehips I don’t know the legalities of it, but I’m deducing from what I see. I know a dead person isn’t there to do anything. It’s just a body. People usually make plans for their bodies before they die, but someone has to make sure that plan is carried through, and that is usually a relative of some sort. I don’t know what happens if there isn’t someone who cares to take care of the body. I guess the state appoints someone?

Functionally, though, that means the relative controls the body until its final disposal. Perhaps they convey it to a funeral home, but the relative gets to decide which funeral home. Essentially, though, it is as if it was property. It is completely controlled by other people. It no longer has its own agency.

Of course, this happens at the instant of death—or perhaps even sooner, if the person is in a coma and unable to control their body at all. They are being controlled by others even sooner than death in that case, although they are still protected by law in a way they are no longer protected once they have died, since once dead, there is no person to have an legal rights.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

Deviance doesn’t exist without norms and the opposite holds true. What’s deviant is arbitrary for each society and time period and context. I think people place a lot of value on norms and on labeling others as deviant. It’s stunted. I do not consider any one whole group as morally corrupt and try (not that I always succeed) to deal with each case individually. I think those who think they’re normal and that others are deviant are the corrupt ones, not morally, but lacking something for sure. It’s like when someone calls someone a slut or says stuff like ‘those people….’ or whatever. I look at them and I’m like ‘you do realize it’s just whatever you don’t feel comfortable doing but there is no inherent value to either your stuff or theirs, right?’ Then they think I’m the deviant.

cookieman's avatar

@rosehips: I’m willing to give you Peanut Butter as a runner-up (even a tie for first if you throw chocolate chips in them), but Ginger?! C’mon, what is this? Gilligan’s Island? ;^)

Coloma's avatar

@cookieman I’ll be Mary Ann if you’ll be the professor, and bring cookies.

ETpro's avatar

Oh, I would have never ended up in such a place had you not asked this question, @rosehips. But researching it led me to discover www.deviantART.com… which I immediately joined.

Mariah's avatar

Deviantart is pretty awesome, be warned I’ve gotten computer viruses from them before though. That was quite a few years ago – hopefully they’ve fixed it by now.

Coloma's avatar

@Mariah I love that site, I get a lot of my desktop backgrounds there.

Unbroken's avatar

Will check out the website. @Coloma @Mariah @ETpro

Oh comeon I love ginger and redheads. More for me @cookieman

@Simone_De_Beauvoir good point.

@wundayatta I sense a new social minority coming into play. Oh wait we have that one already.

@augustlan if we have to define limits, it seems reasonable to me

Paradox25's avatar

There are quite a few examples that clearly show that the status quo can be far more immoral than the deviant individuals opposing it. I don’t consider deviance to be synonymous with immorality so I’m not sure why the question seemed to hint that they are. Outside of my dislike for mainstream Republican agenda I’m likely deviant material on here (fluther). Within my friend/peer circle I’m the deviant one when compared to them. They’re mostly into things like racing, 4 wheeling, cars, hunting, guns, sports while I’m more into science, history, reading and other academic interests.

cookieman's avatar

@Coloma: Deal! And since @rosehips likes redheads (hubba), she can have her cookies and be Ginger.

Now we need a Gilligan, Skipper, and the Howell’s.

jca's avatar

What are my thoughts on deviance? I like it! Deviance can be fun!

Deviance is in the eye of the beholder. To some, anal sex is deviant. To others, anal sex is the tip of the iceberg, and the list of possibilities goes on and on. Go on any fetish site and find all kinds of fun things, people with desire you couldn’t imagine (and many have spouses that have no clue). Whatever people are into that’s more than what I’m tolerant of, well, live and let live, as long as, like others have said, it does not include children under the legal age of consent, non-consenting adults or the dead.

Coloma's avatar

^^^ I think the horizon should be broadened to include certain sadistic acts as well.
Sorry, modest spankings aside, anyone that enjoys inflicting or receiving serious pain during their sexual encounters have issues.

wundayatta's avatar

Have issues? What does that mean? That it’s wrong? That they need psychological help? That they should lose their license to have sex? What does that mean?

Sometimes physical pain distracts you from mental pain. It’s like self-medication. They say that the lithium is better than alcohol or illegal drugs, but I have no basis for comparison. I do know that there have been times when I was so depressed that only hurting myself kept me from trying to kill myself. Physical pain can distract you from mental pain.

Physical pain can also create the kind of tension that is really useful in sex. It challenges you. It allows you to feel like you are doing something for your lover—submitting to them, showing them how far you are willing to go for them. And it’s only temporary.

Yes, it probably plays into other shames. The feeling that you are bad and need to be punished because your desires are so outrageous. But in the end, you are rewarded with pleasure, and perhaps the pleasure is more outrageous than anything you’ve ever felt before.

If you do it voluntarily, and it feels good to you, then what do your judgments mean, @Coloma? You’re not there. You’re not inside the other people. How can you understand? How can you know your way is better?

Coloma's avatar

@wundayatta Gimme a break! “Pain“and “love” are not mutually compatible and self harm IS a known trait of the mentally unstable. ” Have issues” means just that.
Inflicting pain,shame, and harm upon oneself or another is synonymous with mental health problems. This is not my opinion, it is a FACT in the mental health community.
I refuse to entertain your warped ideologies and rationalizations for clearly unhealthy behaviors.

wundayatta's avatar

Don’t entertain them. That’s fine. But you might not be right. Not to mention that the mental health community isn’t necessarily right.

Issues, though, is a silly term. It doesn’t mean anything. Own your judgments. If you think it’s bad, and that people should change, then say so.

And don’t say physical pain and love are mutually incompatible. You don’t have all the experience in the world. I think they are possible to have together and it is not necessarily unhealthy. Then again, I question who gets to decide what is healthy and what isn’t. I think that people without much empathy shouldn’t be making these judgments. People without imagination shouldn’t be making these judgments either. They have to be made on a case by case basis. You, more than anyone, should be wary of making generalizations like that.

ETpro's avatar

@Coloma I’m inclined to agree with @wundayatta on this. B&D or S&M between consenting adults where no permanent physical damage is done and both feel fine about the psychological and power exchange after the fact seems harmless to me. Adopting that sort of desires may not broaden your chances of finding an acceptable mate, but I’m willing to let each individual who’s adult and of sound mind evaluate that trade-off for themselves.

jca's avatar

I’m with Wundy and ET on this one.

Coloma's avatar

@ETpro I agree also, to be perfectly clear, but I am talking more about extremely hardcore unhealthy self harm and other harm. If two consenting adults want to dress up in leather and crack their whips and piss on each other go for it, but serious self and other abuse is not on the same continuum as modest role playing games. I am talking about seriously harmful behaviors, not a little red mark from being swatted with a riding crop. lol

ETpro's avatar

@Coloma And I agree that desires to harm oneself or others is rightly classified as a psychological disorder.

Coloma's avatar

@ETpro Yes, and I can own that I do tend to think that anything involving extreme degradation and humiliation to self & others, and/or substantial physical harm, is more than a fraction off of my bell shaped curve. lol

Unbroken's avatar

Sounds like ya’ll reached a healhful medium. Congrats. I am proud. Now start to work on those safe words.

ETpro's avatar

@rosehips Safe word: Spoony, my beloved old, grey pussy.

Unbroken's avatar

Very beautiful. Is she a russian grey?

wundayatta's avatar

If only we had safe words for conversation.

Unbroken's avatar

@wundayatta what you mean to stop talking?

wundayatta's avatar

Yes. When the conversation hurts too much.

ETpro's avatar

@rosehips She’s a rescue from the SPCA, so I don’t know what breed. Her vet guessed she’s part tabby and part Maine Coon Cat.

Unbroken's avatar

@wundayatta think that would help or it would it just derail all conversations?
@ETpro Maine Coons are big, that must be a violin case. My little tabby (blue cream torte) is quite a handful and they told me that is quite normal. So is she slower and there fore less of a hassle at a giant or just that much more of a queenie?

ETpro's avatar

@rosehips She’s getting old now, and is still nimble and fast as lightning. And that’s definitely a viola case which she totally filled.

wundayatta's avatar

@rosehips No, it wouldn’t derail conversations. It would get them back on the right track. Safe words keep disasters from happening. Kind of like that car commercial where the car beeps whenever its owner is doing something stupid.

Unbroken's avatar

@wundayatta I hate car’s that tell me what to do. But interesting thought.
@ETpro Impressive Lap blanket.

wundayatta's avatar

Well, I can’t tell you how many times I wish I had one. Too late now, though. Those relationships are gone.

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