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ButterJMichaels's avatar

Is it difficult to be a woman and be Republican due to negative conservative policy regarding women's reproductive health?

Asked by ButterJMichaels (48 points ) January 2nd, 2013

I don’t mean that women can’t be fiscal or any other aspect of social life republicans, but the Republican stance towards women seems to be hostile against their personal rights. Is it that big of an issue, or is it conflicting?

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75 Answers

JLeslie's avatar

Plenty of women agree with the republican stance on women’s issues. There are women who don’t who still identify republican for other reasons. When a republican politicians says something very extreme about women’s rights that person is basically dismissed as not speaking for the party.

There are democrats who are pro-life and they still identify democrat.

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bkcunningham's avatar

What negative conservative policy toward reproductive health and hostile stance toward personal rights are you referring to in your question?

Seek's avatar

There are a great number of women who believe they have the right (due to their religious beliefs, generally) to dictate the reproductive decisions of other women. Since they have never had to make a difficult reproductive decision, or perceive they will never be in such a position, judgment comes easily. These women have nothing to reconcile in order to remain Republican.

Seek's avatar

^ Noticed too late. * “There is a great number…”

KNOWITALL's avatar

There is no conflict for me whatsoever. I personally couldn’t have an abortion, but I respect the rights of other women to do what they feel is right for them and their situations.

As I have stated while discussing this issue with Dems and Reps and anyone else, we are not to judge each other ever.

It seems to me that all parties try to make abortion and Planned Parenthood such all-consuming issues because it’s a major party divider, people feel very strongly and emotionally about specific issues. To me it’s not right to incite people for a few extra votes, because there are too many other issues involved like fiscal responsiblity and global issues.

In reality, most conservatives I know are unable to disassociate their feelings about being Pro-Life (Thou shall not kill) with respecting another person’s decision to do what they feel is right. It’s very unfortunate for the Republican party’s future, but changing a Christian’s stance on womens issues would be very difficult.

LostInParadise's avatar

Not all Republicans take such an extreme view. Two Senate candidates in the last election cycle managed to steal defeat from the jaws of victory because of statements they made on this issue. Examine the views taken by your senator and congressman and see if they are acceptable to you.

Judi's avatar

I heard a woman on a Facebook post that was worse than Rush Limbaugh calling Sandra Fluke a whore for wanting birth control if she wasen’t married. She was an educated woman who just drank the koolaide.

RandomGirl's avatar

I’m a woman. I’m a very strong republican. <<Steps out on a limb>> I think abortion is wrong.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@RandomGirl So what does that mean to you, can you expound?
You didn’t state you were a Christian so I’m curious.

Judi's avatar

@RandomGirl, do you think birth control is wrong?
I have a friend who has always been an earth mama. Eats organic, cares for the environment owns a yoga studio and leans left on almost every subject.
She is Catholic and recently went on a retreat where the priest told her that birth control caused changes in pheromones that made male monkeys masterbate unconteolably and and avoid the female monkeys.
Because of this she couldn’t vote for Obama.
People do what they do for the strangest reasons.

Mariah's avatar

Some people hold self destructive beliefs. I know a Catholic woman, for example, who is a strong woman in even way except she believes her husband is the ruler of the household and she should defer to him. To me it is very strange and hard to swallow, but there are people who think this way.

Seek's avatar

@Judi I suppose she didn’t bother to ask the priest for credible references on the topic, and that the priest himself was neither a biologist nor pharmacologist?

RandomGirl's avatar

@KNOWITALL: Well, the only point I was trying to make is that there are plenty of women who are republicans and who take a stand against abortion. Personally (and I know that most Christians also feel this way), the reasoning that brings me to the conclusion that abortion is wrong is this: Humans are different from all other creatures in that we are formed in the likeness of God. We are lovingly created. He has a beautiful plan for our lives before we are even conceived. I can’t help but come to the conclusion that we should fight to save each and every child.
@Judi: Birth control is a sticky subject for me. If it has the potential to end a developing child, then it should be avoided. But avoiding the fertilization of an egg in the first place seems like a practical, wise thing to do if you know you’re not in a position to raise a child.
@Mariah: Some people take the leadership role of the man to unreasonable extremes, I know. But, from a biblical standpoint, it is how marriage was originally designed. It takes balance and an understanding man, but it can work, even in today’s culture. This is the relationship I hope to have with my husband when I eventually get married. Besides, I don’t think I could handle the stress and responsibilities of being the absolute leader of a family.

Seek's avatar

Who needs an “absolute leader”? That’s Feudalism talking. This is 2013. Adults have brains – yes, even female adults – and should be able to work together without one partner having veto power over the other.

RandomGirl's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr I worded it badly. Absolute leader isn’t the concept I was trying to get across. Most people who have this sort of relationship in their marriage do work together, with the woman having just as much input as the man. But if a couple is following the biblical model, the man takes responsibility for teaching and leading his family. He is to care for his family. He has responsibilities.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@RandomGirl I understand completely as I was raised in a male-dominant area (Missouri) and most conservative Christians, Catholics and AOG’s all are taught that males lead the family.

The scripture actually reads “A woman shall be subserviant to her husband if her husband is subservient to God.” (that’s from memory so forgive any omissions.)

I also believe abortion is wrong, but rather than judge anyone, I try to find my empathy and compassion for the decisions they have to make and the repercussions that usually follow statistically. Additionally since my husband and I chose not to have children, we take responsibility to make sure we don’t get pregnant.

My husband is not my absolute leader, but he is the head of the family, more symbolically than anything. I don’t restrain myself during arguments or when he feels he’s right and I’m wrong, but we compromise. The only times it has come down to ‘I’m the man and you will obey me” is like NEVER. :) He knows better.

RandomGirl's avatar

@KNOWITALL: So we don’t disagree that much after all! :)

KNOWITALL's avatar

I hope not! :)

The only differences I have with people (one in my own family by the way) is that we should treat women poorly if they get an abortion, or hate the doctors and Planned Parenthood for profitting from the destruction of life.

Even if we disagree with someone, we shouldn’t judge if we are Christians. Jesus specifically said that he came more for the sinners than the saints and loves them, so for us to do any less (by treating them poorly or without love) and still proclaim we are Christians is a very poor representation of our Lord in my opinion.

This issue is one that usually divides me from other Christian Conservatives in the Republican party unfortunately, and one of the reasons I call myself a Liberal Republican. I also believe in SSM as well, because God is love and we are (AGAIN) not to judge.

Seek's avatar

“Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church, and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives even as Christ loves the church.”

Also from memory.

So, women be obedient, and men, love your domestic servants.

Let me also add in that the Biblical model of marriage includes wartime rape-slaves, and young girls being sold to their rapists by their own fathers.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr Another topic for another day I guess, but it’s very true for a lot of us.

But I am completely at ease with my role in my family, and am no one’s doormat, trust that. :)

jerv's avatar

Republicans in general often act against their own self-interest; why should Republican women be any different?

burntbonez's avatar

Well, it’s clear that there’s what the Bible says, and there’s what people say the Bible says, and then there’s how they actually behave in real life, and none of them are necessarily the same thing. People will do what they do regardless of what any text or person says. They may feel it necessary to jump through semantic hoops to do what the good book says, but in the end, they do what is best for them at the time, however they perceive that to be.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@burntbonez Unfortunately truer words have never been spoken. I do try very hard to make them all the same, but it is difficult.

Nullo's avatar

That would depend on how the woman in question felt about the ethics of abortion, wouldn’t it? I know lots of women who are horrified at the very thought of killing an unborn child – even/especially their own – though they may or may not be Republicans.

@Seek_Kolinahr You never saw the modelling there? The wives are to show their husbands how they ought to relate to Christ. The husbands are supposed to be modelling Christ’s relationship with the Church (and you forgot the part about sacrificing everything for her), which would promote a more Christ-centered relationship.
Of course, if you’re feeling cynical, I suppose you’d end up with your conclusion.

There’s follow-up in Colossians 3:18–24, the gist of which is to do everything as though for the Lord.

deni's avatar

@RandomGirl Just out of curiosity, so you stated your opinion on abortion and the fact that it stemmed from your religious views. Which is fine, but clearly an opinion, so then at what point do you say “This is what I believe, and this is therefore how I feel about abortion, so not only will I not have an abortion myself, but my opinion should be forced onto every woman alive.”? I’m asking this seriously, not trying to be judgmental, but I have never been able to wrap my head around this train of thought, simply because if abortion is legal, it doesn’t force you to have an abortion, but vice versa, it takes away your option to even do so if you do desire. I saw a good bumper sticker that said “You don’t trust me with a choice but you trust me with a baby?”

gorillapaws's avatar

@RandomGirl “If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days.”

How would you feel if Biblical literalists made this passage law, and the crime for rape was 50 silver shekels and marriage to the rape victim? How would that make you feel as a woman? I know the idea scares the shit out of me as a boyfriend, brother, and son. Just one example of why it’s wrong to turn your personal religious beliefs into laws, or do you think the US should be more like the Taliban with regards to mixing church and state?

wundayatta's avatar

@deni I think that many people, if they believe something strongly, believe it should be the case for everyone. It is a rare person who can truly say that while atheism may be fine for me, it is really also ok if someone believes in an imaginary God that tells them what to do, and they have every right to push those views on me. Most of us would fight back, and when you fight back, it becomes either/or. The two points of view cannot coexist.

If you think abortion is murder, then you cannot allow anyone to have an abortion, or else you are allowing murder.

Republican women believe in policies that put women in a second class citizen position, no matter how they rationalize it. Some will admit they believe women should be second class. Others will say that oh, that’s not what it really means. We say that, but we don’t mean that. In this way they reconcile the irreconcilable.

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bkcunningham's avatar

What policies are those that you say, @wundayatta, put women in a second class citizen position?

Seek's avatar

Those that insist we need to be told what to do with our bodies, instead of making our own decisions, for one.

RandomGirl's avatar

I’ll answer the whole “forcing my beliefs on other women” thing with a seemingly unrelated topic: the environment.

Most jellies are devoted to saving the environment. These people feel strongly that every person should do what they can for this cause. “We all live here,” they say. “We should all be conscientious about our carbon footprint,” I’m told. Now, I do believe we should be good stewards of what the Lord has given us, but saving the earth isn’t one of my priorities. When it’s convenient, I recycle instead of throwing things away. But I’m not going to bend over backwards.

How is this connected, you ask? Well, you have your cause, in which you firmly believe. You do what you can to further your cause. You try to show others why it’s important.

That’s what I’m doing. My cause is life. Precious, beautiful children. Mothers in hard situations. Couples who can’t conceive and who would love to raise that beautiful child.
Now, is it that hard to see why I’m active in the pro-life cause? No, I’m not trying to “force my opinion” on anyone. I just want every child to have a chance.

Anyone who feels strongly about something is going to do what they can to further that cause. People write books, or give speeches, or organize campaigns. Can you really expect anyone to have an opinion and keep it to themselves? People are social. People are persuasive. We’re always trying to convince others that we know what’s best. Usually, we give up pretty easily, if the issue is, say, where to eat lunch. Knowing when to give up is part of being mature. But part of being mature is also knowing when something is so important to you that you can’t give up – when it’s just part of who you are.

Seek's avatar

Unrelated.

We all live on earth. We don’t all have to raise the unwanted children of mothers who don’t want to be mothers.

Seek's avatar

Also…

I have a religion. My religion insists that breast cancer is actually the spirit of the great Lord Kha’Lu residing within a person’s soul. It is the height of blasphemy to fight against it, and all who do so are committing a grievous sin against the Khalonian Gods.

Thus, I demand we write laws against chemotherapy and radiation, and most of all lumpectomies and mastectomies, because it is a blessing to die slowly as the Spirit of Kha’Lu takes over your body, and those who die thusly will spend eternity on the Sunflower Fields of Joy.

RandomGirl's avatar

@gorillapaws: That was the Old Testament law. When Christ died for our sins, he set up a new covenant. Christians use the OT for the principles and teaching; If you try to literally follow every law in the OT, it would turn into legalism. That is not true Christianity. True Christianity looks to Christ and says, “We’re hopeless sinners in need of a great Savior.” That’s it. We can’t do anything but trust in His gift. If we try to follow a big stack of rules, it fails.

@Seek_Kolinahr: I’m just using it as an example to show that you do what you can to further your cause, and so do I. It’s a perfectly natural part of human society. And those “unwanted children” are not unwanted. Couples wait for years and years to adopt a child.

Seek's avatar

@RandomGirl Then do a public service and breed for them yourself. Don’t force others to risk life and limb for the poor rich infertile couples.

Do you know how painful and dangerous pregnancy and childbirth are? It kills people. After torturing them for nearly a year. And then there are the aftereffects, which also cause pain, body dysmorphia, post-partum depression, infection, the list goes on.

But, y’know, some other person might or might not get an infant that they might or might not hand over to the foster system when they get sick of raising an autistic crack baby.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@RandomGirl Being Pro-Life really ties into religion for most people, especially with Christians, Catholics and a lot of the earth religions who practice peace. People who have no religion or different beliefs than you do, often can’t see why it’s so important to us.

I don’t believe that bombing abortion clinics or killing abortion doctors is appropriate in any way, but if a friend asked for my advice I would certainly mention the statistics after abortions, mental and physical repercussions, and would hope they realize exactly what the process entails.

We can’t force our beliefs on others, and I don’t believe God wants us to do that either.

There are a lot of children up for adoption in the US and most people don’t understand that if we’re pro-life, why are so many kids still there and unloved, why aren’t we adopting them or forming a network to take care of them. I tend to agree with that honestly.

@wundayatta As far as being a second class citizen, acknowledging my husband as the spiritual leader in my family doesn’t mean I keep my mouth shut if I’m mad or that he dominates me in any way, I’m a very strong, outspoken woman.
Also, even though I do feel abortion is murder, I can’t stop it any more than I can stop any other murder, so I have no idea what you mean there.

RandomGirl's avatar

@KNOWITALL: Definitely, we should be doing more to take care of the kids who are in the adoption system.

wundayatta's avatar

@KNOWITALL Regarding abortion, I simply mean that you try to make abortion illegal. That is the logical outcome of the thought that abortion is murder.

As to what happens in your family, it sounds to me like your acknowledgement of your husband as spiritual leader is purely pro forma. It doesn’t mean anything practical. You have your say and you don’t let him overrule you if you think he’s wrong. That’s what I mean about rationalizations. You say you are following your religious teachings, but you have so many exceptions that it means nothing.

And frankly, I’m glad. I think it is a mistake to let men be spiritual leaders. I think it is a mistake to let anyone be a spiritual leader. But I understand your religion tells you this, and you need to at least say you are following your religion, and perhaps even believe you are following it even as you provide yourself with a sensible escape hatch. I believe many Christian women do the same thing. I wouldn’t exactly say it is hypocrisy, but it is hard for me to see how it isn’t.

I think that people need to do this, however, because they have important reasons to remain part of the church, especially in areas where the church is really important. It is your society. It is your status. So you must mouth the church philosophy in public, and you must do it in a believable way. At the same time, you have your self respect, so you find a semantic way of reconciling the two, and tell yourself that you aren’t actually doing that. You believe it makes sense. But from the outside, it looks like unnecessary mental gymnastics, and it’s kind of sad.

KNOWITALL's avatar

Okay, I get that, and I don’t think you’re all wrong either. :)

Although in regards to abortion, it’s difficult for me because although it’s not the right thing for me, I don’t feel like it’s my place to tell a woman in a bad situation that she is a horrible person for killing her child. It seems cruel and I don’t think God would like that either. Also, I think there are exceptions such as incest or rape, it’s not black and white to me.

You can’t force your beliefs on others, you can only control yourself. But most conservatives probably would disagree with me on that. :)

jerv's avatar

@bkcunningham You’ve never read 1Corinthians, have you? Chapter 14 has some real beauties in it, and 1 Timothy 2:15 isn’t exactly egalitarian either.

Given how so many Republicans are lead by their interpretation of the Bible, I think it safe to say that that Republican lawmakers push policies that align with the Biblical beliefs that women are second-class citizens.

bkcunningham's avatar

Give me an example please, @jerv, of a policy pushed by republican lawmakers that aligns with the Biblical beliefs that women are second class citizens.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@bkcunningham I tend to agree with Jerv on this to some degree. In the time that the Bible was written there weren’t many rights for women, which the Bible reflects. So if we as Christians follow the Bible ‘religiously’, then to a degree, we do support the traditional role of women and men. (Which is why so many Reps do not support SSM, which I do support.)

That does not necessarily mean that Republicans believe women are second-class citizens however, because I certainly am not, although I do appreciate the traditional roles and the benefits that come with that.

I’m not sure what policies the Reps are supporting in that aspect, except the primarily Pro-Life stance, which many CLAIM is ‘against women’, which I do not agree with.

Gabby101's avatar

Yes – I am fiscally conservative and have a very Protestant work ethic, but cannot vote Republican because of their stance on abortion, birth control, stem cell research and their general out-of-date/over-the-top religious views. The rape comment made by Akin (can’t get preganant if you are really raped) higlights just how backwards some Republicans are and also highlights how apathetic others are towards women’s rights and basic intelligence. There is no way that that man did not make many, many other stupid remarks and he was still elected to the Senate (?).

Nullo's avatar

@jerv Fortunately, the Bible has been studied and written about intensely by many people for a long time. With the Internet you can turn them up, like this one.

@Gabby If the guys in office are any indication, the Republican party is religious in a Christmas-and-Easter sort of way.

jerv's avatar

@Nullo Which interpretation of it though? And while there are many good, fair-minded Christians who treat women as equal human beings, there are also those who use their faith in Jesus for the most twisted and depraved of things. Some of the latter are elected officials.

bkcunningham's avatar

Give me an example please, @jerv, of a policy pushed by republican lawmakers that aligns with the Biblical beliefs that women are second class citizens.

jerv's avatar

@bkcunningham Go ahead, deny the existence of Todd Akin and those of like mind.
The real reason I ignored you the first time is that I know you are stubborn and also see things differently enough that you would refute any evidence I present just as you have ignored it in the past in order not to have the same opinion I do. Not worth arguing, and until you got persistent, not worth typing.

augustlan's avatar

@bkcunningham Here you go. Scroll down to “Reproductive rights” and keep on going through “Workplace and pay discrimination”.

jerv's avatar

@augustlan I assumed that that was common knowledge that was being willfully ignored.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@jerv I still believe Akin misspoke and clearly did not mean it literally as most Dems repeat to anyone that will listen, and yes it was unfortunate and yes he didn’t get elected, so you win.

It’s still sad that after all the crazy statements from both parties, this is the one you want to publicize the most and mislead people into thinking he believes any rape is legitimate. Geesh.

LostInParadise's avatar

I saw the interview where he made the statement. He was quite clear. If he did not mean what he seemed to be saying, then he does not have sufficient mental facilities to serve in public office.

It is quite natural to select the most extreme examples. You start by trying to eliminate those who are most extreme. Akin should have had an easy time of being elected. He was running in a Republican state against an unpopular incumbent. Until he made his statement, he had a comfortable lead in the polling. Apparently, quite number of Republicans and independents were sufficiently appalled by his statement to change their minds. Things may not be so bad after all.

jerv's avatar

@KNOWITALL If such things were more uncommon then maybe. And if there isn’t a misogynistic grain of truth to such things then you are telling me that Republicans are too unwise to be trusted with the responsibilities of public office.

To be fair, Democrats say enough crazy things that I cannot really respect them much either, but it tends to be slightly less common and (usually) far less egregious.

KNOWITALL's avatar

I’ve seen the interview, I’ve read comments from both sides, and yes, he misspoke about a really important subject and lost. All I’m saying is that it was a mistake. Anyone remember a guy named Clinton that embarassed our country with his intern? And we love Bill.

I think it played right into the Dem hands and they paid to have it blared over every radio and tv ad possible so he would lose. It worked and thousands of people believe the propaganda, so congratulations.

Seek's avatar

@KNOWITALL Oh please. Two consenting adults engaged in a mutually desired act. He could have gotten the same treatment from a 9 year old boy and still be an ordained priest of the Catholic church.

Mariah's avatar

@KNOWITALL If he was just misspeaking, what do you think he meant to say?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Mariah Statistically…which is what I’m always asked to provide here…rarely do women get pregnant from rape. See quote below:

think the main thing that bothers me here is every time you see this news article, someone is saying ” He said it was impossible for a woman to get pregnant from a rape!!!!”

He didn’t. He said he understood it was rare.1% to 4% is pretty rare.

Seek's avatar

Those same numbers are true for any randomly chosen sexual encounter. You’re only fertile about 5 days out of the month. Only 20–40% of fertilised eggs implant in the uterus. Many of those are rejected by the body before the woman ever knows she’s pregnant. That’s where the rare-but-it-happens “false positive” pregnancy test comes from.

So, I still call bullshit.

KNOWITALL's avatar

k, I figured you would.

JLeslie's avatar

My take on Akin was “those” people believe every child is a gift. Even if created under horrible circumstance, a life is a life. We should not look at that life as worth less. Of course, these same people would be lableing a baby of an unwed mother a bastard not so long ago, and women were still to feel horrible about having sex out of wedlock even when raped, but most have moved on from those days I guess. Anyway, I guess they want to believe every pregnancy is meant to be. They believe in things like destiny and God’s plan. I agree with the stats that in a given month a woman has about a 1–4% chance of getting pregnant with a pregnancy that results in birth. That is if we consider all 28 days of the cycle. At least 20 of those days are actually impossible to get pregnant, but that is not part of this stat.

KNOWITALL's avatar

“Those” people do believe every child is a gift. We call ourselves Christians. You know a woman who was under attack from others about having more than one child when one had already been born with Downs Syndrome, said that her child was still worthy of love for whatever time she was allowed to love him.

That being said, I’m almost 40 and have no children by choice, it’s really not that difficult to take personal responsiblity for pregnancies. I’m much rather be careful than face the repercussions of an abortion psychologically or emotionally.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I didn’t use “those” as derogatory, at least that was not my intention. I just meant the hard core pro-life, vocal, poltical (although not always politicians themselves) I don’t think they are antiwomen, they just are so fervent in their beliefs and how they think about pregnancy and life, that when they are saying every life is a gift, it is not saying the rape was a gift. I was defending what they are trying to convey, which I think is acceptance of the baby. But, I do think they lack knowledge about science and pregnancy at the same time, which realy works against them and affects their message, because most people who don’t understand the mindset can easily say, “what an idiot.”

As far as down syndrome and other significant genetic mutations, something like 90% of those pregancies are aborted, so there are certainly pro-life people aborting. But, overall in America our acceptance of people with disabilities of all kinds is incredible. My husband who is Mexican, friends of mine who are Venezuelan, others I know from various countries talk about how understanding and accomodating America is regarding this. In other countries they keep their disabled practically hidden. Children and adults.

KNOWITALL's avatar

Acceptance of a child of rape or with a disability is difficult.

I just don’t understand why so many people demonize those of us who are Pro-Life, I’m just over it.

My friend is a rape baby, I was a bastard because my father wanted me killed, and I have friends with disabilities they were born with. We’re all good people, we contribute to society, why can’t people see that all life has value and should become trash?

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I don’t think it is difficult at all. I think most people I know don’t think it is difficult to accept the child. People question the parent, not the child. Back in the day being a “bastard child” was a mark on the child, but I would think people who still think that way and even use the term bastard are few and far between. I have never heard some say it. Not that I can remember. People do comment on the parents being unwed.

The perspective of the people willing to abort is not a question of whether all life has value or not, it is that we value the woman’s right over her own body. Or, some don’t think of an embryo as a human life yet. Or, they feel strongly that they would not want to live a life with a severe disability, so if she finds out something is very wrong with the fetus she is carrying they abort. Many people believe they would rather be dead than live with a severe disability, so even if they do believe life begins at conception, they would choose to end the life before born. Many downs babies need medical intervention when born for digestive problems or heart problems. They would naturally die without it. I don’t think it is the majority, but it is a significant number, I don’t remember the exact stat.

When I was very little I had a friend with downs syndrome. I used to love to go to his house and play. My mom was friendly with his mother. To me he was just a boy, I didn’t even realize he had a “diagnosis” until one day my mom used the term down syndrome (this was well over a year of knowing him and playing together) and pointed out to me his face was different. Still, she never made me feel he was different in a way that I shouldn’t play with him or to shun him. In fact, I never thought to treat anyone any differently because they look different or have a disability, and my parents certainly never treated people any differently based on something like that, we had friends, relatives, and of course would run into strangers who were not “nornal” although I hate to use that word. However, my mom would be the first one saying to me, “you’re going to abort right?” If I were pregnant with a fetus that had the diagnosis. So, it is not about looking down at the individual, the person born to unwed parents, or the person born without legs, or the person who is hard of hearing, not in my world.

KNOWITALL's avatar

Abortion is just seen as easier for everyone involved, and the child seen as garbage, there’s often not a funeral for children who are aborted.

Mariah's avatar

@KNOWITALL I think you’ll be hard-pressed to find a pro-choice person who has that stance because they feel children of rape or with born disabilities are garbage.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL Why should there be a funeral? Do the people who feel iti s a life always have a funeral for every miscarriage? The children are not seen as garbage, that is completely untrue. Maybe you have some sort of bad feelings with how you were treated or how you perceived you were treated being the child of a single mother? I am not assuming anything, but if you grew up around a group of people who are wait til your married, judgmental, kids called you names, religious people, then I can understand. I saw a woman on a show a few days ago who felt horrible shame because she founf out when she was still a child that her mother had been cheating on her father, and her actual bio dad was the man from the long term affair. She carried horrible shame, felt everyone knew instantly she was born from an affair, did things to ruin her life, basic self loathing. As much as I believe her emotions are real, that it can be very disconcerting to find out slmething like this about oneself, she is completely wrong about others judging her.

This is America, we are supposed to be the land of taking each individual on merit, not on family name or social class level. We are not royalty and wee people. It doesn’t matter if a man’s father was a serial killer, the son is not. It doesn’t matter if a poor boy was born in the ghetto, he will be accepted in corporate America making 6 figures if he has the degrees and the knowledge to do a job. It doesn’t matter if someone was born in Pakistan, Eqypt, Spain, Jamaica, name any country, if they come to America, love America, become Americans, they are Americans.

JLeslie's avatar

Just to add, in Judaism the rule in the religion is the mother must be saved when a choice of the mother’s health or the fetus. The mother is known to be a stable life, possibly has other children, is a part of a marriage and society. Back in the day of Abraham, or even Jesus, infant mortality was huge. Making it past age 5 was a big deal. Adults already had gone through many of the childhood diseases and survived, while a new life had probably a 40% chance of not making it past age 5. In fact, something like 1 in 3 pregnancy are thought to miscarry, the lowest estimates I have seen are 1 in 5. A woman could go on to be pregnant again, and being a Jewish mother is extremely important to raising Jewish children within the religion. So the mother’s life is very valued. I know most Christians are ok with aborting for the life of the mother, but there was that recent case of a nun being excommunicated for helping a woman get an abortion when her health was in danger. The pregnant woman already had some children. I would worry a pro life doctor would not give all the necessary information to make a decision if something was wrong with my pregnancy or fetus.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie I think I’d rather say most Christians would prefer almost anything rather than abortion. Cases involving rape, incest or the mother’s health are ‘excuses’ to some and ‘exceptions’ for others, because there is always adoption in the first two at least.

People have funerals for miscarriages, sure.

Of course I have bad feelings about my personal circumstances, but it’s mainly because my father is a pillar of the community and such a great ‘Christian’ man, who has failed to act anything other than apathetic during my lifetime. But every time I hear people talking up abortion, I cringe inside, because at one time, I was the fetus that would have been killed.

Catholics are a little different about a lot of things and slow to change with the times. Of course the nun was excommunicated for disobeying the Church’s rule/ stance. As I’m sure she knew she would be, and she decided to do it anyway. I’m not saying it’s right, but sometimes you do what you do and accept the repercussions that come with that.

Peace out, gotta work.

JLeslie's avatar

I don’t understand the rape exception personally.

Mariah's avatar

^^ I think it’s got less to do with the child and more to do with concerns for the mother’s mental health and right not to have her body forcibly altered.

KNOWITALL's avatar

Yes. My auntie got raped at bus stop going to nursing school at night and had an abortion (the baby would have been mixed race) and seriously has never been the same. She never had another child and honesty, she lost her mind due to the guilt (our family is pretty religious.)

But as I mentioned, my friend calls himself a rape baby and he met his mother’s rapist, who is his dad, and didn’t make verbal contact. I don’t think his mom prosecuted either, I’ll check on that out of curiousity. But he has children of his own and is a likeable and productive citizen. His mom was brave, but not everyone can raise the child after rape.

JLeslie's avatar

What I mean is, if someone for religious reasons believes firmly life begins at conception, then I don’t understand being ok with killing a healthy fetus under an condition. Her mental health is not good enough in my opinion, because every mother who wants to abort wants to do it either for her own well being, or for what she might believe is best in the end for the fetus if it has seriously abnormalities. Why is rape different? Either way, not allowing abortion is forcing a woman to stay pregnant.

If it is a choice between the mother’s life or the fetus, then I can see making that exception, because often if the mother will die the fetus would die also, but not always the case.

@KNOWITALL I know people who have horrible guilt about aborting, usually they are religious women I know who feel this way. In some cases they aborted because they felt strongly the baby would not be accepted, either because it was mixed race or because they would have been young single mothers. I know one friend of mine aborted because her extremely religious Christian family she felt would have ostracised her for having had sex. I feel the judgmental religious people around them caused them to make decisions to abort that they did not want to do. Maybe the families and communities actually would have come together in support of the pregnancy in the end, but in their mind the shame would have been bad for them and their child. I also have a friend who felt doing an abortion was wrong. Wrong period, and her parents pushed her into it. Her family is much more liberal than she is. In the end, all the people I know who live with horrible regret over their abortions, never wanted to abort really in the first place.

KNOWITALL's avatar

Our family would have accepted the child of course, just as they accepted me, but in the 1950’s it was a little different and I believe she was pretty young, early 20’s I’m sure. We haven’t discussed her reasons too much, it’s kind of sensitive. More later, tons to get done in 3 hours.

JLeslie's avatar

But, as a young woman her perception might have been it was impossible and would not be accepted. We sometimes don’t understand as young people the difference between our families trying to guide us in life, and whether our families will be understanding when we don’t follow their hopes for us.

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