Was America, ever, great?

Yes, when it was inhabited by natives only.

I think the 20th century will go down in history as the American century. The U.S. became the world’s major power, especially following the collapse of the Soviet Union. The U.S. did not always act properly, as in the case of the Vietnam War, but it was able to amass a good deal of soft power. This is something Trump does not understand. All he knows is hard power. In a world where the U.S. is not going to be able to use strong arm tactics to get its way to the extent that it did in the past, soft power counts a great deal. By turning away from international organizations and treaty agreements, the U.S. becomes isolated and less influential.

America has never been perfect, but it has been more unified than it is today.

Ask a Japanese American how good America was during WW2.

I detest the notion of American Exceptionalism or the shining city on the hill. Every country has done good and bad things and the number of things America has gotten wrong in the name of “Manifest Destiny” or spreading democracy is incalculable. Before we can progress we need to look at what we have done to get where we are; genocide, slavery, racism, etc.

Yet, for many immigrants and privileged people, it has been a land of opportunity and freedom. So I would conclude that it is no greater or worse than any other large imperial power and I would hope to see more progress toward racial and economic equality in my lifetime. But I have my doubts.

I guess it depends on your personal point of view.

We’ve been throwing our weight around since our inception as a nation. Google “Instances of US use of armed force and military interventions” and prepare to be mind boggled. And the list does not include major wars. Perpetual War is nothing new for us. We were lucky in a few cases when our much maligned British Cousins had our backs with naval forces lurking in the shadows to back us up of we bit off more than we could chew. As when we took over Samoa and the Phillipines in the 19th Century. German forces were always near by and could have easily kicked our ass has it not been for the British Navy hanging around and sending signals not to mess with their bellicose colonials. Lol Which kept less friendly powers from knocking us down and taking our candy away.

Always. Because all people everywhere use us as an example of what they want, and/or they all wish they could be here too.

@kritiper Not all people, I dare say.

@rebbel – you silly savage, eat your Big Mac™ in your blue jeans® and dream of California©, or else. ~

——-

More to the question.

America can be great while other countries are great as well. It’s not a ranking where only the top spot matters. I guess I think of it like this, is there 10% of the world I’d rather live in for the rest of my life? If not, for all of it’s faults and things I’d like to improve, it must be all right here.

Always. Because all people everywhere use us as an example of what they want, and/or they all wish they could be here too.

You should indicate when you’re joking, or people will think you’re really dumb.

Once upon a time America represented worthy ideals and was a place of refuge for the oppressed. America at that time could be called great. Now it is sinking towards depths that would horrify the Founding Fathers.

“Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

Plaque on the Statue of Liberty.

Probably not, we however have always been Great Britain

^Great at fucking the world up…

But I’m sure that your statement carries the usual sarcasm :)

Oh, no, he means it.

Further to my Statue of Liberty post I think Human Flow is a film we all should see.

Only in some of our childhoods. TRUMP still wants his father’s respect and admiration.

I still think America is a wonderful country based on my experiences in some underdeveloped countries. BUT it is definitely going downhill. We keep letting the ego maniac, power hungry people get to the top of the elections. All the people who truly care are stomped on.

Although that’s just my opinion

@Call_Me_Jay That’s hilarious!

Giggles at all the inferior nationals has always been thus :D

King George and Parliament were benign compared to the Feds and the Infernal Revenue Service. They owe you money they take their sweet time. You owe them money you better pay it yesterday.

America has had more than its share of great and less of its share in not so great. It has never been perfect. People still flock here for the opportunity. Want to turn it around then stop being divisive. It’s as simple as that. It has been arguably less shitty than most countries and still is except for places like Canada. It’s just cold as f up there.

In the early days people came here not so much because the US was a beacon of gold promising better as to get away from a dismal situation back in their homeland whether disease, famine, persecution or the stagnation of the existing societies. Actually, not much different from today.

If I had to point to a period of time when we actually stood for something worthwhile and came closest to achieving greatness I would say that it was from the1930’s through the 1970’s. Things started to unravel in the late 70’s and have pretty much gone downhill from there.

the1930’s through the 1970’s

If you were a white male, and not poor.

America has always had some great things happening, and some horrible things, too.

@Call_Me_Jay I think that it was during this time period that we saw the greatest change in attitudes and in our society. Did it magically happen in 1930 and then disappear just as magically in 1979? No, it was a gradual change. We started out in the hole of the Great Depression and with fits and starts, ups and downs, two steps forward, one step back we made changes was happening. Incomes were rising (unequally, sure but rising for the majority), more and more people achieved home ownership, greater emphasis on education meant more brains addressing problems, technological innovations, great strides were made in public works, unemployment dropped and more people could work, tolerance was not looked upon as a failure of morality, civil rights were championed for all. And yet, all the important societal changes that were implemented seemed to begin to have less importance in the 80’s and greater emphasis was placed on personal gain to the detriment of a more equitable and just society and we continue our decline through the present day. From my own perspective forces want to take us back down the rabbit hole whether by accident or by design. One big massive backslide into the morass of the past. Who knows, maybe things will get so bad that even those implementing them will realize the mistake they have made and allow us once again to move forward toward the goal of providing a good living for all of society, not just the select few who are dismantling what was started after the Depression with the intent upon swinging the power structure back to that which was in place during the era of the industrialists and robber barons of the late 1800’s and early 1900’s.

Yes. It was still pretty great up until 2008.

^So you’re saying that it was great until we had to deal with the disaster that G.W. left? I agree…

Ditto @ MrGrimm888

Yeah, genocide against natives, slavery, segregation, concentration camps, all “pretty great”.
But a black guy as president, all downhill from there.

Yeah the Rethugs still can’t get over it. The forces of reaction are trying hard to undo it all.

Pretty sure Germany has lead the world in genocide, segregation and concentration camps. Pretty sure a one-term asshole isn’t going get the US there.

Germany has outlawed Nazi symbols.

Conservative Americans embrace the Confederate flag of treason and slavery.

Side note. Many southerners do not feel that the confederate flag represents treason, or slavery. Comparing the Nazis, and confederate army is a very poor analogy. If there was anything close to genocide, during the Civil War, it was done by General Sherman of the union army…

I do realize that current hate groups ,in America, adorn themselves with both symbols. So, I get your point…

@MrGrimm888 “If there was anything close to genocide, during the Civil War, it was done by General Sherman of the union army…” I don’t think that is entirely true. Atrocities were committed during Sherman’s march to the sea, but so much of that was committed by other unregulated, uncontrolled, outermost elements not under his or any other direct command.
OH! And don’t forget about the Confederate’s POW camp at Andersonville. And how so many Confederate soldiers “treated” black prisoners.

If there was anything close to genocide, during the Civil War, it was done by General Sherman of the union army

From the white supremacist perspective, sure.

Gone With the Wind is the equivalent of a romanticized depiction of the SS families commanding Auschwitz and Buchenwald.

^Well. I guess I’m a white supremacist… What an ignorant thing to say…

I haven’t seen Gone With the Wind. Apparently, it would teach me about WWII…~

@kritiper . The war wasn’t short on atrocities, for sure. Most wars aren’t.
Sherman was let off his leash, by the US government, for a specific reason. They wanted him to do whatever it took to win. If you study his tactics, they were parallel to acts of genocide throughout history. The acts were largely carried out in rural areas, vast distances apart. Not as notable as rounding up civilians in a town square. I suppose I’m happy with the outcome. I wouldn’t want slavery still around, and who knows what the country /world wouldn’t be like if the north didn’t win. To my knowledge, of the war, Sherman’s actions stood out,even in a sea of terrible events… Keep in mind, his victims were not a foreign army.

The Nazis saw other races as subhuman. Their actions followed that thinking.

The “morally superior” north,was dealing with their own countrymen. More genocidal behavior was taking place at the same time as the Civil War, as the Union finished up taking the rest of what would be America, from the native American people. Yup. Lots of fine folks in the Union. Thank God they saved the world from the monsters in the south…

@MrGrimm888 “Inability of Federal commanders to control their troops may be inferred from the following order issued by O. O. Howard on 22 Nov. (1864):

“It having come to the knowledge of the major-general commanding that the crime of arson and robbery have become frequent throughout the army, notwithstanding positive orders for both from these and superior headquarters have been repeatedly issued, and with a view to the prompt punishment of offenses of this kind, it is hereby ordered: That hereafter any officer or man . . . discovered in pillaging a house or burning a building without proper authority, will upon sufficient proof thereof, be shot.” (O.R., I, LXIV, 521).”

-from pg. 511, The Civil War Dictionary, by Mark Mayo Boatner III, printed by Vintage Books, a division of Random House, Inc., New York, first Vintage Civil War Library Edition, October 1991

No mention of genocide.

The Nazis saw other races as subhuman. Their actions followed that thinking.

How did the confederates see their slaves?

I know you are not a white supremacist. I don’t doubt your honesty.

But I think you have been conditioned to see the antebellum south through a romanticized lens.

American slavery and the Indian Wars were as bad as Nazi Germany. It’s not debatable. Most of us have not been able to see this because we grew up steeped in the white-centric mythology.

^I would wager, they saw slaves similarly, without the desire for eradication. Although seeing as white people in the north were coming around, I speculate that there were people in the south that were opposed to slavery too. Things like the underground railroad, would have never occurred without southern sympathizers.

Saying “their” slaves isn’t very accurate though, as only a handful of people fighting in the war owned any. Mainly wealthy families, with large plantations owned slaves. Those wealthy people, had little to do with actual fighting. The poor fought the war, same as today.

Painting with such a broad brush is not wise. Am I to retort that all of the northerners thought of native Americans as subhuman?

@kritiper . History, is written by the winners. Of course their tactics are not self described as genocide. Any more than American text books describe the “building” of America, as expansionism, robbery, rape, genocide, germ warfare, murder etc…

@MrGrimm888 That’s crime/mayhem in general, by certain elements in general, but not general practice. By nature, Americans are not criminals. Notwithstanding, there are those who might prejudice us as just about anything they want.

@Call_Me_Jay . I don’t think of myself as brainwashed, but I suppose those who are don’t know it…

I just know that things like war, are usually much more complicated than a singular issue. Not all southerners were racist, slave owners, fighting to oppress black people. Anymore than all northerners freedom fighters, who loved black people.

After the war. Freed slaves started migrating north. That became the source of much friction, as many northern whites didn’t want the black people around…

@kritiper . I disagree that it was crime/mayhem. The country was built on deplorable actions. Like all countries, I guess. But we have no moral high ground.

@MrGrimm888 There is nothing respectable about the Confederacy. Read the secession documents – the main issue was slavery. They called men and women “property”. They were fighting to enslave and torture people.

The Confederacy was no better than Nazi Germany. And the United States military stomped the CSA just like it stomped the Nazis.

^I never called them respectable. I said most southerners don’t see the confederate flag as representing what other’s do. That may be difficult to understand.

I used to have a confederate flag in my room, when I was a teenager. I eventually took it down because it does offend some people, who don’t understand why we fly it.

It doesn’t help that moronic hate groups adopted it.

The swastika used to be a symbol for good luck. It was used for a long time in history, before the Nazis adopted the symbol. They also used the eagle as a symbol. Obviously, that isn’t tainted.

Hitler’s motivation for his trademark mustache was said to have been Charlie Chaplin. Now, only cats can get away with that look.

Symbols have many different meanings…

@MrGrimm888 “The country was built on deplorable actions.” Maybe so, but it wasn’t sanctioned by the general rule of law, much less what is considered as civil.
And it was a different time. We’re so much better now! Not perfect, but better!~

^Like I said, all countries likely resorted to similar actions to become what they are today. Now, it’s only Russia, Israel, and China…

“Conservative Americans embrace the Confederate flag of treason and slavery.”

No, they don’t. Ignorant, uneducated southern hicks yes but not your garden variety conservative. Frankly if you separate out the hard-line evangelicals, tiny minority of actual racists and said hicks most conservatives are not bigoted at all and generally are socially liberal, they just don’t agree on other things such as high taxes, that America is a cesspool, humans should die, corporations are evil, socialism rules, some of the more wacky identity politics and the general unfettered, unrestrained idealism that exists in the far left. They also have pretty well started to abandon the current brand of republicans in power now who are radical, regressive and just reckless…not conservative traits BTW. There is no party representing them now. To say that they embrace the confederate flag is not particularly insightful.

Dunno why Germany even gets mentioned no one gives a fuck about them

In terms of technological advancements and material goods yes. Socially it has never been great. In order to build America the original natives were either killed or enslaved and had their land stolen. There was slavery of african peoples. The lack of gun ownership control is a huge negative. Also up to today there is too much racism and obsession with classifying people into a particular racial category. Also there is too much materialism causing many americans to be too superficial.

Maybe so, but it wasn’t sanctioned by the general rule of law

Slavery was law. Segregation was law. The Indian genocide was law. My grandmothers could not vote when turned they 21, only men voted – that was the law. Black people were prevented from voting in the South when I was born (1962) – that was the law. I have letters my mother received when she applied for jobs out college saying plainly, “We don’t hire women” – that was sanctioned by the law.

Do not be complacent – we are only 1 step out of the Dark Ages, and conservatives are trying very hard to drag us back in.

@ARE_you_kidding_me _most conservatives are not bigoted at all and generally are socially liberal_

You are deluded. Almost everything you wrote is untrue. Just for one example, the President of the United States was campaigning for a Dominionist child molester who wants to repeal the amendment banning slavery.

That is your party. That is mainstream conservatism. YOU vote Republican and you’re fooling yourself pretending you aren’t supporting them.

@Call_Me_Jay I was referring to genocide committed, supposedly by Gen. Sherman during the civil war. Crime and civil unrest are not the norm. Still don’t believe me? Read the US constitution, the Declaration of Independence, and the US Bill of Rights. Granted, there are still those who dwell in the hatreds, prejudices, and discriminating practices of the past, but it isn’t what America is about. And it sure as hell isn’t what America is about NOW.

@ARE_you_kidding_me – They also have pretty well started to abandon the current brand of republicans in power now who are radical, regressive and just reckless…not conservative traits BTW.

When will this be reflected in voting? Because the party, it’s candidates, and it’s elected officials, seem to be getting more radical and regressive, instead of less. They are elected by public vote, so we can’t credibly claim that those values aren’t popular. And those candidates with more radical and regressive views are rising to the top. The conservative movements have been leading that change for a decade now.

most conservatives are not bigoted at all and generally are socially liberal, they just don’t agree on other things such as high taxes, that America is a cesspool, humans should die

Have you read the Republican Platform? It seems to hold many of the things you’re saying aren’t conservative values. If you’re not comfortable with the platform, and the officials, (again, who are voted on by your peers) perhaps it’s time to take a fresh look?

@Call_Me_Jay @funkdaddy Clearly you don’t know your conservative neighbors if you have any at all or talked with them in any discourse other than to call them bigoted racists.

Yeah, if only I could find a conservative in the state of Texas. With much of my work lately being for the state, in criminal justice.

It’s practically a liberal commune I’m surrounding myself with.

I actually follow what you say because I think I understand where you’re coming from. You don’t really have a party, and have a set of ideals that aren’t being represented. You don’t identify as Republican, I get that. I don’t have a party either, but I’m ok being called a “liberal” because I think progress should inform decisions about the future.

And that’s the thing, you should know the word “conservative” doesn’t mean what it used to. When you identify as a conservative you may know you mean the Kasich brand from the 90’s, but that’s not where it’s at anymore. Look at CPAC, or polling, or whatever your favorite “conservative” news source is. The passion isn’t on the ideals you seem to value. So people hear that and base their response on what they see now.

“Conservative” as a label has been co opted or hijacked. Conservative candidates are the activists of the right, not the centralist you seem to be representing. It’s not about spending, or defense, or innovation. It’s about “taking America back!” and “America First!”. That’s where the conservative movement is, and where the Republican party is, regardless of how you define it for yourself. They’ve stolen your banner.

If you’re not cool with that, as I said, maybe it’s time to take a fresh look.

FWIW I’ve had the conversation, in person, several times, when they let me out of the commune.

No fresh look needed. You realize just how many of us there are, those who have been left in the center while the political parties went off into oblivion? Yet we continue to put up with those on the left or half a step to the left continually yell “racist!” “bigot!” to anyone who dares not identify as liberal. The republican party has indeed been co-opted by the fringe, we know it. That does not mean we will run off and join the other party because it’s not representing us either. Don’t think there are that many of us? Just wait, I see a very large center movement growing with people who are infuriated by partisan politics. It’s going to attract people on the left too. Many of us knew long before Trump but the vast majority are only now waking up to what has happened.

@funkdaddy I feel your pain. I too feel like the lone ranger as a liberal mind in Texas.

HOWEVER, I will say that I had a wonderful evening having a very frank discussion last week with a solidly conservative Trump supporter. We both knew there was no way we were ever going to agree let alone convince each other that our particular views were the correct ones. Our wives were mortified that we, two strangers a few hours ago, would actually talk politics in a public setting and were both terrified that it would come to blows. But we were just laughing and carrying on, shaking our heads in disbelief because neither of us able to truly believe the other thought the way they did and although we never did reach a consensus on how to solve problems we both agreed existed we were able to learn how each other viewed the situations and basically agree that perhaps acknowledging that improvements could be made and then compromising on solutions was actually a better idea than pig-headedly refusing to even discuss doing it any other way than our own.
And then there were those instances where one saw problems where the other could not, and we both had them. The best we could do was listen to each other describe why he saw “x” as a problem and why he could not envision “y” as ever being a problem. We had a wonderful time, left each other laughing and met again the next evening socially so no permanent repercussions. Except….... he did say I was definitely going to be the main topic of discussion at his boys get-together the following week as he, nor any of them he believed, had ever met someone who actually and vocally supporting Bernie Sanders and his solutions let alone admitted to voting for him in the primary. So, I guess not all of them here in Texas are inbred redneck simpletons the world would believe viewing and listening to our own State government officials.

@ARE_you_kidding_me What if the middle-of-the-roaders from both parties got together and formed their own third party? We could certainly use a third to break up the stalemate that we presently endure. All it would take would be a core of existing senators and congressmen to decide to lead the way. I don’t think it could happen without having the support of a number of those presently in office.

That “what if” is something I would deeply like to see happen and I’m certain I’m not alone.

@ARE_you_kidding_me

List the “socially liberal” policies and laws enacted by Republicans. And no, I am not talking about Abraham Lincoln. Recent items. What are they?

I’m speaking of conservatives, for one they don’t view culture and society the same. They view America as a melting pot of culture and ideas, you know…a team. E plurbus unum. The republican party has drifted from this considerably but not real conservatives. The left has drifted as well but it’s harder to see. they claim to be socially liberal on one side but their viewpoints and actions often speak differently. They view things as intersectional, competing and tribal, their methods are often divisive. Yet they claim the moral high ground with no real basis for that assertation. They seek power through division instead of unity. Conservatives are repulsed by that.

^Well. They can claim to not be the party of———David Duke, the KKK, neo-nazis, alt-righters, nationalists, xenophobes, bigots, anti-gay, anti-gay marriage, domestic terrorists, destroyers of the environment, people who take from the poor or unfortunate, people stopping even slightly stricter gun laws, people tearing migratory families apart, causing war, raising the debt, raising defense spending, lowering taxes for the wealthy, keeping religion relevant in government (that’s illegal,) alienating us from the rest of the world, drilling and pipelining everywhere, and so on…

The current republican party, is the absolute worst thing, for ordinary people. Well, everyone who isn’t upperclass to wealthy.

I’m hoping a few Republicans, will be brave enough to stall this tax bill. Hoping for a small amount of morality, in a group such as this, is probably futile.

Saying the word “unity,” in the same sentence as “conservative” baffles me.

@ARE_you_kidding_me – Don’t get me wrong here, I’m trying to understand.

If these compassionate conservatives are so numerous, who are they voting for and how are they showing up in state and federal government?

I appreciate getting to hear from a conservative how he feels his perspective on issues is skewed and misunderstood. Thank you for that, AYKM.

So, as a liberal, I thought I’d do the same real quick on a few points mentioned… I value diversity, not division. And I do see those two things as fundamentally different. In some cases, even opposites—take, for example, just how intolerant nationalists are of perceived cultural differences. I also don’t support “higher taxes” as a concept, as much as I don’t agree with a defacto principle of cutting beneficial programs to “lower” taxes, which seems to be a go-to strategy for Republican politicians in particular. There is a cost to those actions, and it’s often not felt by the people who are receiving the cut, and it’s something that needs to be factored into the discussion… In general, I believe that there are some things we can simply do better when we coordinate and pool our resources as a society, rather than trying to each do it individually. I am, of course, in complete favor of reviewing programs to make sure they’re doing what they’re supposed to be doing, that what they’re doing is in fact a benefit, that they’re running at peak efficiency, etc.

You weren’t asking me @funkdaddy but I have seen some reasoned, caring writing from conservative opinion writers in the New York Times such as David Brooks. He, and Ross Douthat are appalled at what Republicanism under Trump, Ryan and McConnell has become. I don’t see this Republican compassion much in Congress; it flares up at times such as Collins’ and Murkowski’s stand on health care but then they get beaten down and roll over.

As far as AYKM’s looking for a mid-ground, it is an ideal perhaps to be striven for (and I think Obama did to the dismay of many on the left) but while there is such division on basic issues such as women’s autonomy, reasonable gun control, government health and welfare programs and taxation, reasonable gun control it is hard to see how that could happen. What would the middle look like?

Certainly this political reality of one party and then another getting in power and terminating all the policies that were put in place previously is making America lag behind the rest of the world in progress and “greatness” terribly.

to late to edit but I see I put “reasonable gun control twice”.

If “most” conservatives are so socially liberal, then why were the only ones opposing the Neo Nazi Rally in Charlottesville, leftie commies?

Speaking as a progressive, I feel that as the Republicans Republican Party has moved further to the right, the Democratic party has also drifted to the right in order to maintain the status quo thus becoming very close to what I perceive as the original Republican values, goals and beliefs. I have been left behind. I used to think of myself as a middle-of-the-roader but the road took a sharp right turn. I rode on the left hand shoulder for a decade or so but now I find myself spinning my wheels out in the desert somewhere, left to fend for myself with no party and no representation.
It seems to me that the vast majority of Republican are much closer (fiscally wise) to the Democratic platform than that of their party of choice and should feel at home with and in the Democratic Party if they could come to understand that on social issues it has to be give and take, win some – lose some and come to a consensus knowing that you will not agree with everything but that is what a big tent should do, allow for, differences, not demand that everyone be the same.

^In my opinion, the Democratic party has drifted farther to the left.

The language certainly has moved further left. I don’t think the majority left wing constituents have. I think they are being islanded somewhere near the center as well. The loudest voices and biggest whiners are along the edges. Most regular people have all but disengaged but are just as fed up with the whole thing as well.

@ragingloli you saw at kkk rallies what I mentioned above. People who view society as a battle to be fought not as a project to be done as a team. Conservatives want to de-escalate things not start fights. Privilege hierarchies, over the top PC culture and this tone of “oppression olympics” does not really accomplish much except stir things up and get people mad at each other and mostly for no good reason. I’m going to give one exception though, the #metoo thing has done a lot of good and it’s something my other conservative peers acknowledge as well.

I am sorry @kritiper & @ARE_you_kidding_me I don’t see it. Could you perhaps explain why you see it that way?

you saw at kkk rallies what I mentioned above…Conservatives want to de-escalate things not start fights.

You mention a KKK rally and only criticize the anti-Klan side. How unsurprising. The Klan are conservatives. That isn’t debatable. And you vote with them. You support the same candidates. That’s your team.

Your “no TRUE conservative is a racist!” shtick is transparently dishonest.

[Mod says] Please remember to disagree agreeably. Thanks.

@rojo Compare the presidencies of Clinton and Obama. Obama was drastically further left than Clinton, which is where the Democrats are now. (IMO)

@kritiper You haven’t named a single example of far left policies from the Democrats.

@ARE_you_kidding_me You are listing things like “PC culture” which are not policies and laws, and they have no effect on your life.

Those are things FOX shows you to make you mad and give you a nebulous feeling that Democrats are “bad”. It’s deliberate manipulation.

I am not doing this one sided moderation anymore. Folks I’m over it. For those of you who have been polite, reasonable and don’t hurl comments that are just backhanded insults thank you.

One final note before I leave and I’m indirectly called a bigot and racist again. Conservatives make up some 30–40% of the population depending on whose numbers you use. The vast majority are not in these fringe “conservative” in name only groups. While the meaning of “conservative” continues to be under re-branding assault by said fringe, smeared by the ideological left and generally shit on regularly the vast majority of people who will identify as conservative are moderates and will align more closely with the first part of what I’m reposting below. They go to work, they have friends and family, many go to church, give to charity (in larger numbers than liberals I may add), they grow our food, raise our livestock and just like liberals they have good intentions and they want a better life for themselves and everyone else. If you find yourself flustered, angry and spiteful to someone simply because they happen to be conservative I think it’s time for a little introspection.

This is recopied from someone (a liberal) on Quora (where I’ll be spending the remainder of my online forum time) who said it better than me.

Conservatism, at heart, is a belief system founded on four articles of faith:

A belief in a speed limit on cultural change (where going over said limit weakens unity and triggers disastrous unintended consequences).
A belief that governance is best handled at a local level (with the exception of national security and some infrastructure).
A belief that intervention should be rare and decisive (there must be a compelling benefit, whether on a national or personal level).
A belief that the state has a responsibility to ensure order using the least restrictive means possible (balancing stability and liberty).

There are other beliefs often associated with conservatism (e.g., low taxation and the virtue of traditions), but all are really just corollaries of those first principles.

(As a point of clarity, I’m going to use the phrase “historical conservatism” as shorthand for the ideology outlined by thinkers like Jefferson, Burke, and Smith in the late 18th century. Though there are an unwieldy number of alternate labels and sister-systems out there, most schools of conservatism find their root there.)

Now, can we find anything positive in those ideas? Absolutely. They represent the synthesis of millennia of careful observation and introspection. In fact, to take the other side on any of those points as an exclusive position is intellectually untenable. The author of Ecclesiastes figured this out 3,000 years ago when he wrote the “to every thing there is a season” sermon — which, in short, noted that good politics is simply recognizing when the pendulum needs a nudge.

Thoughts of ideological dualism aside, we have the question of why liberals so often criticize conservatives. There are many layers here, but I’ll focus on the dominate one: a number of today’s self-styled conservative movements promote ideas that simply don’t line up with historical conservatism.

Just a few examples:

Historical conservatism would suggest that LGBTQ+ rights like marriage equality should be pursued gradually and thoughtfully in view of the disruption they represent to traditional mores. But this is not at all the same as suggesting that said people should be denied their rights to self-expression and discrimination protection in the interim (actively denying either would contradict principle #4, as the restriction would fail to increase stability or preserve liberty).
Many today hold the curious idea that deficit spending is somehow antithetical to historical conservatism. To the degree that such spending is indicative of an outsized federal government, this might be reasonable. But the idea that all deficit spending is somehow bad by its very nature isn’t conservative thinking in any historical sense — it’s just bad economics. Without it, we don’t have mortgages or productive investment. The one true hallmark of historical conservatism is simply that all spending ought to have a clear and reliable path of positive economic return.
Historical conservatism maintains a dim view of religion in politics. This isn’t to suggest that politicians must be atheists or agnostics, but only that private beliefs ought to have no influence on legislation (as that would inevitably lead to violations of principles #2 and #4). It follows then that a political party having a fixed relationship with one religious group is decidedly un-conservative by definition.

Anyone who can’t find something positive in historical conservatism and its living adherents is either tribally blind or politically ignorant. But the discrepancies between those original principles and some modern “conservative” movements are significant, opening the door for reasonable (if unproductive) accusations of hypocrisy and insincerity.

And this re-posted from the late great Crow who I respected greatly.

“Marco Rubio, whom I am often sorry that I can’t agree with on many, many subjects, made a speech on the Senate floor one night not long ago pertaining to the division and animosity in this country. Hardly anyone heard it. It was possibly the best American speech so far in this new century. Take eight minutes of your time to listen to it and please share it with your friends.”

Marco Rubio

^I’m not judging you AYKM. I’m sorry if my posts sounded personal. I was speaking about the Republican party. Not you.

I have been listening to what you have said. It has actually given me a small hint of understanding some of the less extreme rights. Thank you AYKM.

Only for Trump. Life was good for him.